Thread: 43? why dont we have an instance score board @ the end?

Originally Posted by Celebria

Anything that shows the stats of everyone's "contribution" in a group and therefore opens the door for people to hate on everyone that they think doesn't live up to their own subjective standards (which for 99% of gamers is everybody but themselves) is a stupid idea.

If damage/aggro/healing meters are ever in a game, they should be visible only to the person making those stats and not the rest of the proup. Most people in this game already need to learn how to actually cooperate with others and play as a team not add to their inflated egos and compete with everyone around them and make useless egocentric comparisions.

Very much this.

I played wow for the better part of 7 years. I have mostly tanked and healed. I know how to be a team player. Not from the post dungeon finder, recount, gearscore times but from before that. When there were repercussions to being a jerk in a dungeon.

I have yet to heal or tank anything in LotRO. My last few years in WoW have sort of made me pretty nervous to even try. Add in not really FULLY being comfy with my classes here yet and I am not sure I will try anytime soon.

If you add in gearscore/recount/cross realm dungeon finder? Kiss it off. I am SO not going there. I will keep right on keeping on as a solo player. There is no reason to turn LotRO into a WoW clone. It is its own place with its own community. It is NOT WoW.

You'll never get your wish, but if you ever do, don't group with another Burglar, as you might inadvertently find out that Burgs aren't nearly as bad as you occasionally try to make them out to be in your PvMP threads.

Originally Posted by Unique

1. We have the hardcore player who are sitting at a table in Vegas going for that big title and a pile of cash at the World Series Poker Tournament.

2. You have your self proclaimed professional players who have to play to win every time, it's a job, they love to find the weak and beat them up.

3. Then you have everyone else, those who just want to relax and have some fun over the kitchen table with good friend, a bottle of Jack or a case of beer, it really doesn't matter who goes home with more nickels then anyone else because that's not the point.

They are all playing the same game, which group are you in?

Playing Patience quietly somewhere (and not submitting my results to the Internet scoreboard)!

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

how the instance finder should have works is via a ranking system


come up with some way of ranking your toon it could be DPS/heals/Agro generation/Suport DPS added power given with a combination of stats/gear.

Im sure you guys could come up with some nice metrics.


Then develop a ladder system

you pick t1/t2/t3 game mode

then you pick group skill level t1/t2/t3
t1 would match you with higher ranks t2 with equal ranked t3 would match you with the lower ranked noobs

now give the instance finder bonus based on weather you group with pros or n00bs. maybe ad special rewards for helping the newerplayers baced on rank difrence.

also let things like quit % effect rating and give a small weighting to prsonal ratings of each other after you finish an encounter


you would need to make this cross server to have the population to pull it off.


You need to give your instance finder credability, right now it has none and there is no reason to use it.

1. Grouping with pros would give 0% bonus, right? Because that is easy-mode.

2. Precisely. This would be of benefit to such a tiny minority that it would only work if you aggregated across all the servers.

I'm sorry, but I find this a hideous vision of how things should proceed.

Originally Posted by Edegon

That is why WoW been ruling MMO market, because it's flexibility.

I played WoW. I quit that game, do not want to go back to that game and I do not want this game to be like that game.

And to survive, an MMO does not have to be like that game.


People come here from WoW and expect this game to be like WoW. And they cannot understand why the player base does not want this game to be like WoW.

Originally Posted by Lestache

You'll never get your wish, but if you ever do, don't group with another Burglar, as you might inadvertently find out that Burgs aren't nearly as bad as you occasionally try to make them out to be in your PvMP threads.

Ssshh, you'll hurt the OP's feelings!

Seriously though, I absolutely HATE 'leaderboards' and e-peen meters. And it's not because I'm a 'baddie' or whatever the WoW slang is this week for anyone who doesn't top the boards. It's because a big part of my day job is creating something very similar for call centres - which, by the way, have got monitoring performance and tracking stats down to an art that the most hardcore WoW guild can only dream about. And the conclusion I draw from that experience is that in almost every case, monitoring stats is useless because the individual stats don't tell the full story, and in some cases they're worse than useless because people game the stats that are measured at the expense of the ones that aren't. DPS who use AoE attacks to pad their total damage figures even though it breaks CC, for example, or Hunters who don't take the time out to cure poison because time spent doing that is time that they aren't firing off more damage, or healers who burn through their power to stay top of the healing chart even where the heals aren't strictly needed.

If you have a leaderboard, you'll have people playing to the leaderboard instead of the only proper measure - did we complete the instance successfully. And I thought the point of a group was to COOPERATE with each other, not to COMPETE. Competition is all well and good, but over-competitiveness is usually a mask for some serious self-esteem issues.

Legolas was a hunter and Gimli was a guardian, so they had to count.

I'm a Champion. I do not need a scoreboard. I shing shing.

Originally Posted by Lestache

in your PvMP threads.

I'm curious, why would anyone who plays a freep in PvMP want anything like this in the game?

Example:

Bill and Tom do some skirmishing together and compare their performance using the new E meter. Bill decides to go do some PvMP and disbands, Tom hops on his creep and slaughters Bill because now he knows all Bills weaknesses.

I gave a pug a try today in Roots of Fangorn on my hunter..I've NEVER done RoF T1 before - been strictly T2 even when it first came out. Well my hunter was 75 for less than a day and I didn't have any nice gear so I figure i'd give T1 a shot. The people in there were TERRIBLE (worse gear than me even..). The LM, minstrel, guard, and champ were some of the worst i've ever seen. Most still had some if not nearly all level 58-60 gear on. They couldn't play their classes worth a lick either. Between each pull they literally spent 5-10 minutes dicussing how to do it. It was an utter disaster. I guess we only wiped like 3 times but it took 6x longer than it needed to. Probably 10x considering it was only T1.

Once we finally finished I added every single one of them to ignore. Those people literally aren't worth the time. I know it's just a GAME..but some of us only have so much time and don't have the time to deal with dimbwits.

The level 75 mini was decked out in level 60 jewellery + armour + lvl 60 second age book (LOL). Quest gear and a lvl 75 3rd age book would easily be better.

Level 75 guard using level 60 second age belt (and bad gear etc). Again..quest gear + lvl 75 3rd age belt would easily be better.

With that said: I think it'd be awesome to have an instance score board at the end. It'd be fun to compare various things plus I enjoy seeing what others have for playstyles or how their playstyle actually works if I haven't gave it a try yet. I don't need a score board to see who the bad players are cuz they already stand out. I just think a score board would add fun things to shoot for and adds spice to the everyday grind. It'd make for a HUGE learning tool but Lotro has become a bunch of sensitized care-bears..

Originally Posted by Unique

I'm curious, why would anyone who plays a freep in PvMP want anything like this in the game?

Example:

Bill and Tom do some skirmishing together and compare their performance using the new E meter. Bill decides to go do some PvMP and disbands, Tom hops on his creep and slaughters Bill because now he knows all Bills weaknesses.

PvE and PvMP are completely different playing field. They're really not related that well when it comes to how well a person plays. There are plenty of fairly good PvE players but are just okay or even bad when it comes to PvMP. Anyways, if a person PvMPs the slighest they already know who the bad freeps are.

And I've ended up in PUGs from hell with people from the major raiding kins on my server who were 75s kitted out in full Orthanc gear with first age weapons who couldn't get through a (Moria!) Forges or 16th Hall without wiping the group repeatedly.

Including a burg in full Orthanc with 2 firsr agers who literally did not know what an FM is.

The mind boggles. PUGs are always a risk. Everybody knows, or should know this, within a few months of playing any MMO.

Originally Posted by timmyloo22546

I just think a score board would add fun things to shoot for and adds spice to the everyday grind.

The problem is that a scoreboard has no way to score all of your contributions to an instance. Do you really want to group with people who prioritize their skill use on what makes them look good on the scoreboard rather than what would be the best for the group/fight at hand?

There is already a scoreboard.

Did the boss die? Group 1 - 0 Instance.

Did the group die? Group 0 - 1 Instance.

That's all you need to know.

Originally Posted by Tarmas_Eldar

There is already a scoreboard.

Did the boss die? Group 1 - 0 Instance.

Did the group die? Group 0 - 1 Instance.

That's all you need to know.

indeed thats all we need

Originally Posted by Chanah

And I've ended up in PUGs from hell with people from the major raiding kins on my server who were 75s kitted out in full Orthanc gear with first age weapons who couldn't get through a (Moria!) Forges or 16th Hall without wiping the group repeatedly.

Including a burg in full Orthanc with 2 firsr agers who literally did not know what an FM is.

The mind boggles. PUGs are always a risk. Everybody knows, or should know this, within a few months of playing any MMO.

hahaha. There was this huge thread about how ToO T2 is too hard and only elitsits beat it blah blah blah. Terrible players are downing ToO T2 to aquire first ages? I wonder what type of player made the thread about ToO T2 being too hard for the average person. ahhh too funny.

Originally Posted by Bramor

The problem is that a scoreboard has no way to score all of your contributions to an instance. Do you really want to group with people who prioritize their skill use on what makes them look good on the scoreboard rather than what would be the best for the group/fight at hand?

If you look at it that way...heck yes! I've done limlight dailies on my 74 hunter at the time using 65 FA bow and I was doing as much dps as hunters with level 75 SA bows. Stuff like that should NOT happen. I don't care if those hunters were traited 5 trapper of foes...I should not be up to snuff with them on dps. They were even using oils/bow chants; I wasn't. I'd rather group with a handful of over-achievers than a majority of bad players.

Often times wiping once or twice with people who'd rather "look good" still saves time when compared to grouping with bad players who take 5-10x longer than necessary to finish a simple instance. So yes, I really wanna group with the players who save me time so I can spend LESS TIME GRINDING stupid stuff.

We do already have this in the game using plugins.

As example, in my last Helegrod run i did (as OP guardian):
4.337 Million damage.
68 minutes long.
average 1000 Damage Per Second.

All that stats you can get them using a plugin.

Originally Posted by timmyloo22546

Terrible players are downing ToO T2 to aquire first ages?

My guess would be lvl 75 Lootboxes ftw

Originally Posted by timmyloo22546

hahaha. There was this huge thread about how ToO T2 is too hard and only elitsits beat it blah blah blah. Terrible players are downing ToO T2 to aquire first ages? I wonder what type of player made the thread about ToO T2 being too hard for the average person. ahhh too funny.

And iirc, T2 wings can drop WSoTEK, too. As do 75 lootboxes.

Also, it doesn't matter how big of a number you can pump out of your weapon. If you play like you replaced your brain with a cabbage, you fail.

Originally Posted by timmyloo22546

Once we finally finished I added every single one of them to ignore. Those people literally aren't worth the time. I know it's just a GAME..but some of us only have so much time and don't have the time to deal with dimbwits.

And here is an example of the *help" that would be given by people using a scoreboard.

Originally Posted by timmyloo22546

Those people literally aren't worth the time.

On the other end of the spectrum, I find people who are intolerant of people still learning (as few instances below the 75s are run anymore) not worth the time.

Case in point, one of my friends is bringing up a guard, so we were doing some semi-practice GS runs to get her used to the role of tanking and group play, and we had a difficult time getting a burg to sit down long enough to explain the fights because, "It's GS, what's there to explain?" (Luckily, he eventually got the message).

I'm not sure how a scoreboard would show me that. I'd rather run with some diligent nubs who finish an instance rather than some super-elite epeens who drop after one pull because "this group is fail." My ignore list is reserved for those who truly annoy me with their attitudes rather than people still getting up in the world--we were all there once.

Originally Posted by Nymphonic

The only meter that I need while I'm in a group is if we are still standing when the dust settles.

QFT, with the proviso that the meter also dings if everyone has wiped, and finds said wipe hilarious.

As others have noted, in a game with so much in the way of CC, debuffs and buffs - group analysis is shakey at best. How much of that high-power damage you have just done is down to the Captain standing next to you and making you awesome, or the Loremaster crippling your mobs from 20 feet behind you?

Originally Posted by timmyloo22546

The level 75 mini was decked out in level 60 jewellery + armour + lvl 60 second age book (LOL). Quest gear and a lvl 75 3rd age book would easily be better.

Level 75 guard using level 60 second age belt (and bad gear etc). Again..quest gear + lvl 75 3rd age belt would easily be better.

Why would changing to a 3rd age belt have been better for the guardian? Second agers have the inherent perceived threat bonus, which a third ager wouldn't. There's a couple avoidance ratings that get boosted with level, but not by that much. There's the threat legacy which'll get ranked up, but against, it's a higher rank on that versus a perceived threat bonus, and I'm not sure which works out to be better. And there's shield use rank, but that only effects the damage done by shield skills. Unless you're relying on the guardian for their DPS (and if you are, you have more problems than the guardian's belt being not up to level), an underleveled belt shouldn't be a problem.

The minstrel, yeah, updated song books are good.

Originally Posted by timmyloo22546

With that said: I think it'd be awesome to have an instance score board at the end. It'd be fun to compare various things plus I enjoy seeing what others have for playstyles or how their playstyle actually works if I haven't gave it a try yet. I don't need a score board to see who the bad players are cuz they already stand out. I just think a score board would add fun things to shoot for and adds spice to the everyday grind. It'd make for a HUGE learning tool but Lotro has become a bunch of sensitized care-bears..

But what can you learn with it? Back when I played WoW, Recount (one of the more popular WoW add-ons that handles group damage tracking), didn't teach me anything. I used it to make sure my DPS was up to spec (which I was mostly concerned about because I was DPSing with a tanking build). The things I actually learned from were Cat DPS Guide (a nice DPS FAQ for the spec I was playing, which had descriptions of what stats were important and why, attack chains/priorities, and was generally a good starting point for learning about what was important and why it was important when DPSing), and Mew's (a simulator that would take your stats and spec and run random trials using "perfect play" to calculate your theoretical maximum average DPS - handy for seeing how changing your stats and spec changed your DPS).

And to analogize, measuring group DPS is in some ways like measuring GDP - it's easier to measure, but may not be representative of performance. And by measuring it, you may assign it undue importance, which causes people to focus on it to the detriment of actual performance. And just knowing the actual number being measured tells you absolutely nothing about how to improve it.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

What I am sugestion is a recap screen @ the end of an instance that shows your contribution to the fellowship


Maybe have stats like: total damage, total KB, total heals, damage taken, Agro generated.....

why is this a good thing?

it lets us know how we are doing, what we are doing and what others are doing. it gives us numbers to aim for and in some respecs ads a side game to the grind.


And its part of the lore
(you naysayers and anti pvp comp people were just owned before you could even coment)

Allow me to explain why you owned no one.

Gimli knows how many Gimli killed. Gimli appraises Legolas of that count.

Legolas know how many Legolas killed. Legolas appraises Gimli of that count.

Did either of them comment on how many Aragorn killed? No? Why not? Because they didn't know!

Which means neither the book nor the movie had what you are asking for. Own denied.

Originally Posted by timmyloo22546

Once we finally finished I added every single one of them to ignore. Those people literally aren't worth the time. I know it's just a GAME..but some of us only have so much time and don't have the time to deal with dimbwits.

but Lotro has become a bunch of sensitized care-bears..

Now I really dislike the idea of scoreboards more than ever. When ever the idea of a meter or open PvP comes up the insults start coming from the people that want these features.

Originally Posted by Nymphonic

Now I really dislike the idea of scoreboards more than ever. When ever the idea of a meter or open PvP comes up the insults start coming from the people that want these features.

Agreed! More to the point if they cannot stay civil on a forum discussing it, how will they use it in game? Nope I do not want to go there.

Originally Posted by Nymphonic

Now I really dislike the idea of scoreboards more than ever. When ever the idea of a meter or open PvP comes up the insults start coming from the people that want these features.

Hmmm. Inter action. Seems like people are drawn to MMO's for some type of interaction. Some people interact in this way and may like things like score boards. those people might make up 50-75% of the customer bace of other games. It is a good thing turbine does not want there money. Im sure people like you would leave by the 1's and 2's if they added a little content for the masses.

Looks were the soloist has taken us. I cant believe they were so blind to listen to the soloist.

Originally Posted by Mirarian

Agreed! More to the point if they cannot stay civil on a forum discussing it, how will they use it in game? Nope I do not want to go there.

Games with score boards do just fine even 5 year olds can handle a score board in any sports game.

Originally Posted by Iorothiel

On the other end of the spectrum, I find people who are intolerant of people still learning (as few instances below the 75s are run anymore) not worth the time.

Case in point, one of my friends is bringing up a guard, so we were doing some semi-practice GS runs to get her used to the role of tanking and group play, and we had a difficult time getting a burg to sit down long enough to explain the fights because, "It's GS, what's there to explain?" (Luckily, he eventually got the message).

I'm not sure how a scoreboard would show me that. I'd rather run with some diligent nubs who finish an instance rather than some super-elite epeens who drop after one pull because "this group is fail." My ignore list is reserved for those who truly annoy me with their attitudes rather than people still getting up in the world--we were all there once.

The problem is there is plenty of "solo" paths through LOTRO there is as of yet not 1 group or fellowship path. Kind of ironic when you think about the point of the books.

that said, if some one reads this why is there no group leveling path. make it takes 50% the time to level make it based on instance and land mass group content. Wile you are at it learn how to design good landmass group content. You guys are at a total loss @ hot to do this.

here is some logic to this.

The person that groups wants to get to end game to group. he wants to get there faster and he should be exposed to content that will be like what he will be put into once he reaches it.

The person who solo's is playing a single player client in a MMO he is not going to be happy when he hits the level cap. There is nothing left for him. Make it take extreamly long and supper questy solo for him to get to the cap.

Even though i have no idea why we do not have one, i can tell you right now why we should -NOT- have one, ever ^^

Because this game does not endorse the kind of player mentality endorsed in games that -have- such things..
Because once you, as a dev, accept this as valid a request, it is only so long before you are forced to also accept a battle recount. And a kick button for failwtfnoobgodieletsLFGman. And a 'gearscore' right after it.

That's why
Just my opinion of course, mileage i am sure shall vary.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

Hmmm. Inter action. Seems like people are drawn to MMO's for some type of interaction. Some people interact in this way and may like things like score boards. those people might make up 50-75% of the customer bace of other games. It is a good thing turbine does not want there money. Im sure people like you would leave by the 1's and 2's if they added a little content for the masses.

As proved by what? Please link hard provable statistics on this?
Without proof I simply have to rely on most stats are made up on the spot.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

Games with score boards do just fine even 5 year olds can handle a score board in any sports game.

Way to not get the point. Of course people can handle scoreboards. Its the e-peen stroking fools who are more concerned with topping the charts than working as a team that annoy me. No scoreboard=no problem


Fact I ran my first LotRO dungeon this morning on my Champ. I can also say it is the first dungeon in any game I really enjoyed in about 3 years. Why? Because we focused as a team on how to beat the content rather than ripping each other down to be at the top of the chart. There was no ripping each other down because someone was 1 dps lower than someone else. Suggestions were considered and implemented since it was not a contest between players but rather it was a contest between the team and monsters. Bosses die = team wins.

Now that I have seen how good it can be no way I want to go back to the crapfest of e-peens that drove me out of wow.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

*snip*here is some logic to this.

The person that groups wants to get to end game to group. he wants to get there faster and he should be exposed to content that will be like what he will be put into once he reaches it.

This has been the only thing you've posted to this point where I can understand what you're saying and see your point of view. Still doesn't make a case for "scoreboards" though.

That being said....people who ONLY do solo quests in the game and never hit an instance most likely don't WANT to raid at end game. Yes, this is an MMO, but that doesn't mean they absolutely HAVE to play with other people. Those who have an interest in end game I'm sure are doing whatever they can to group whenever they can and learn the proper mechanics, rotations, etc in order to be a great group member.

Perhaps your suggestion shouldn't be scoreboards and the like, but an option to specifically group for all the content. I imagine something like that would take a while to implement, but it doesn't hurt to ask.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

The person who solo's is playing a single player client in a MMO he is not going to be happy when he hits the level cap. There is nothing left for him. Make it take extreamly long and supper questy solo for him to get to the cap.

You really don't understand "solo" players, do you? (Not saying your last sentence is wrong, but it m y be right for entirely the wrong reasons.)

I would love to see a levelling by instance mechanic in Moria, since they're revamping it anyway and since there's enough instance content in there that you could rightfully get 12 or 14 levels out of it. But leave the quests intact to keep the solo folks happy as they're the largest part of the LoTRO population from what I can see.

Hate questing in that place. Love most of the instances. Doubt it'll happen, but it'd be nice, and possibly the only area of the game where it could be done without massive content redesign.

I'd still hate to see any kind of scoreboard implemented, though. And I still don't know how you'd even rate the support classes.

LoTRO is based on the books, and despite those little Gimli-Legolas exchanges (you'll find one in the epic in LoTRO, too!), it was never about competition - that would be lore-breaking in the extreme. Frodo, Sam, Merry, Pippin, part of the fellowship? Those noobs?

It wasn't about who was the best warrior. I realise the game isn't an exact copy of the books, but I appreciate that in the PvE content, it's about *co-operating* with your team members to get through difficult situations, not *competing* with them.

Originally Posted by Iorothiel

If you play like you replaced your brain with a cabbage, you fail.

oops.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

Wile you are at it learn how to design good landmass group content. You guys are at a total loss @ hot to do this.

You mean like Thror's Coomb and Limlight Gorge? That kind of open landscape group content areas?

Turbine has spent the better part of 15 years trying to get people to group to do content, going all the way back to the launch of Asheron's Call in 1998. In each game, they've run up against the wall of people not wanting to be forced to group, and each game I've played in live (can't really speak to DDO as I only played that in beta) has slowly and reluctantly made more content for solo over time.

Attempts to create group content are fighting the gamers behavior and preferred play styles and if too much pressure is applied to get people to group up, it kills the game rather than making more grouping happen. You really can't fight it and be successful.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Originally Posted by whheydt

You mean like Thror's Coomb and Limlight Gorge? That kind of open landscape group content areas?

Turbine has spent the better part of 15 years trying to get people to group to do content, going all the way back to the launch of Asheron's Call in 1998. In each game, they've run up against the wall of people not wanting to be forced to group, and each game I've played in live (can't really speak to DDO as I only played that in beta) has slowly and reluctantly made more content for solo over time.

Attempts to create group content are fighting the gamers behavior and preferred play styles and if too much pressure is applied to get people to group up, it kills the game rather than making more grouping happen. You really can't fight it and be successful.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Heydt, maybe this post is at the heart of 15 years of short commings?

maybe instead of trying to get the players to sit down nice and build a puzzle they need to also try to get them to group up and play a game of B ball or have some competition aspect related to their group content. Maybe they are missing the special sauce of what makes a group game realy tick and come together.

Gee, wouldn't it be fun to still be on Vol I Book 1 of the epics because you couldn't find anyone to group with for months to do the quests?

THAT is why so much of the content got solofied. If LoTRO had done something suicidal like - only accepted new players in batches of, say, 500 per server at set times and not allowed alts, maybe, maybe...no, they'd be out of business by now.

Forced grouping is an utter fail in this game. Open world PvP is completely out of the question as it breaks lore. Scoreboards would be about the same, and you still have support classes to consider, which would render the things moot anyway.

If you really can't stand LoTRO, there are other games out there that are more to your taste. I hate saying that to anyone, but face it - this is a niche game for a niche market.

Could it have been done better? Oh yes, no question. The way you want it done? No. That would just turn it into generic teen fantasy MMO 5863. It would bear no relation to Lord of the Rings anymore.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

Looks were the soloist has taken us. I cant believe they were so blind to listen to the soloist.
.

MMOs are a multi million dollar business. The companies that make them are not going to listen to people on an internet forum asking for solo only content. I bet those guys have all sorts of charts, graphs, work load studies, and Sauron knows what else. That is how they determine what the customer demographic wants.

You keep saying Turbine. How about World of Warcraft, Age of Conan, Star Trek Online and Star Wars the Old Republic? I've played all of those and I know from personal experience that those games are mainly solo play.

Whether you like it or not, solo play is where the MMO genre is headed.

Originally Posted by Nymphonic

MMOs are a multi million dollar business. The companies that make them are not going to listen to people on an internet forum asking for solo only content. I bet those guys have all sorts of charts, graphs, work load studies, and Sauron knows what else. That is how they determine what the customer demographic wants.

You keep saying Turbine. How about World of Warcraft, Age of Conan, Star Trek Online and Star Wars the Old Republic? I've played all of those and I know from personal experience that those games are mainly solo play.

Whether you like it or not, solo play is where the MMO genre is headed.

ok so there will not be anymore MMO's soon?

or they will all go the way of sim's?


I think valve is going to come out with somthing that reinvents what you think a MMO is and it will be good and it will be group based.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

ok so there will not be anymore MMO's soon?

or they will all go the way of sim's?


I think valve is going to come out with somthing that reinvents what you think a MMO is and it will be good and it will be group based.

Good I hope you have great fun THERE.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

Heydt, maybe this post is at the heart of 15 years of short commings?

maybe instead of trying to get the players to sit down nice and build a puzzle they need to also try to get them to group up and play a game of B ball or have some competition aspect related to their group content. Maybe they are missing the special sauce of what makes a group game realy tick and come together.

I think you are suffering from grouping-induced myopia. You are pointing the finger of blame at Turbine and all the other game studios.

They are not leading the solo trend, they are following it.

I'm sure the dinosaurs spent a lot of time muttering about all the small, furry mamals that seemed to be taking over the world, and thinking that if only things were different they would all grow up to be big and scaly.

We have seen the enemy, and it is us.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

ok so there will not be anymore MMO's soon?

Again, that myopia kicks in. There will be plenty of MMOs, populated by millions of primarily solo, but still social, players, all having a great time pursuing their own in-game goals within the context of a vibrant multi-player world.

Rather like real-life, where we mostly spend our time working towards our own ends, rather than continually going round in a group doing the same things over and over and over again, and often kidding ourselves that we are having fun.

It is called "growing up". Young adults tend to run in packs, but after a while they settle down, pair up, and spend their time as couples. Then they get focussed on their own goals of raising children, grinding out enough marks to pay the mortgage, etc. It is the human condition, and we are programmed that way.

MMOs have entered the mainstream and as a consequence they are changing to reflect that change of demographic.

I do not know how much truth there ever was in the sterotype of the gamer as a pimply, socially-inept guy living in a basement was, but there is always a grain of truth in these images. Maybe those individuals, subconciously realizing that they were never likely to form a couple, tended to gravitate towards an environment where they could be what they knew they were not in real life, and where they could continue to display the pack mentality that they would normally have grown out of.

Unfortunately for them, and also for those who see MMOs as a highly competitive activity, the MMO community has changed to reflect a more mainstream demographic, and has become more of a "virtual real-life". This is going to be sad for the few, but great for the many.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

Heydt, maybe this post is at the heart of 15 years of short commings?

maybe instead of trying to get the players to sit down nice and build a puzzle they need to also try to get them to group up and play a game of B ball or have some competition aspect related to their group content. Maybe they are missing the special sauce of what makes a group game realy tick and come together.

Since AC is still running after Turbine hit the wall of attempting forced grouping and bounced, I would argue that Turbine is slowly--VERY slowly--learning that to sustain an MMO, while some group content is desirable, a lot more solo content is required to gain and retain players.

Just because most players are doing *content* solo doesn't mean that group *social* activity isn't happening. I don't know about you, but even when I'm doing solo content, I still respond to chat channels and especially to the kin channel.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer