Thread: Gamezone report RoR end-game is solo focused

Originally Posted by Laerien

Also Turbine have announced an instance cluster and for sure it will include the best gear.

Apart from some of the gear that we'll probably find in skirmishes... just like last time . Hopefully you're right though, but that's only if they've learned anything about itemization from their Orthanc loot failure... Wouldn't hold my breath

Originally Posted by BellusDuFenna

Well, the usual counter-argument is that no one will do end-game grouped content (Raiding in specific) unless the gear obtained that way is the best in the game, and allowing solo players to obtain equal or even near-equal rewards will "kill raiding". I personally think that is a load of hooey, but a lot of people think that way.

People would probably do raiding for the fun of it (only part i enjoy in the game atm, playing with friends). But if every fight has the same prupose and similar mechanics, it's getting boring rather quickly. If there's quality and quantity in boss styles, it would be fun... lately that has not been the case.

Draiglitch - Fun, but the bugs are taking the fun out of it for many groups. Still bugging out after more than ½ year (the whole thing would be easily fixed with a timer as well)
F/F - DPS race
Lightning - Semi-DPS race
Acid - DPS race
Shadow - DPS race
Saruman (especially t2) - DPS race

... Anyone else seeing a pattern? DPS racesare easy and low-cost to make BUT a fight where it's about control is much more entertaining in the long run. Control fights are more fun because you can ease up on dps (and at times MUST ease on dps) and just enjoy the fight. Take Durchest hm for instance, if you don't control the fight you wipe, simple as that. Or the Balrog in rift, a very fun and long fight where it's not so much about dps, hps or tps but rather all about control. Having a full raid instance filled with only dps races is just plain old lazy

I prefer fellowships to mostly solo play. I think it would be better to have options to choose instead of being forced into solo exile. Choice would cator to all playstyles.

Originally Posted by lgato411

I am a raider as well but so far solo has meant easy. Go find a single at level mob. Hit it once and I bet you can auto attack it to death the rest of the way.

I am not against solo players getting the best gear at all. It doesn't make any difference to me. It doesn't make the work I put into my build feel cheapened. I simply don't care. I don't understand why they need it when landscape quests and mobs are such a faceroll. But again so what? If it makes them happy then God bless. They pay for the game just like I do and how they choose to play the game is their business.

That's the nub of the matter. Choice and money. For many good reasons I can't get to raid often enough to get the great armour. Especially with Raid Lock &&&& going on. But I like to have the best I can for when I do group content. I liked the system where you could work towards the best gear through solo and group skirmishes. Could do it at my own time and pace and content short enough I wasn't going to screw the group if unexpectedly pulled away by real life, unlike full Raids.

I would love it if Turbine devoted some time to making decent solo and small FS challenges as an alternative to the Raid Locked path. I cannot remember the last time they released challenging solo/small FS content. My non-raid geared hunter can solo blast through any skirmish on t3 at duo settings. (But you get no worthwhile reward for it with the 'not using the instance finder' penalty imposed.)

It seems nowadays Turbine's only mechanism for 'challenging content' is to impose nerfs of various sorts or stealth change the damage tables instead of making better content.

I think the final mechanism for getting the Moria/Mirkwood gear was about right. Collecting a reasonable number of tokens from running 6 man FS's on 24 hour cooldown for the Challenge bonus. Looking back it seemed like the Golden Age of pugs. Reasonably challenging, lots of fun and everyone collected a little bit towards what they wanted.

Originally Posted by GalateaOrea

Yes, but please, please don't let the raiders hear you say this. Once you learn a raid, it is rote and you just keep doing your same task at the same time over and over. The idea that raiding is "hard" and "challenging" for people who regularly raid is baloney. Ya, it takes a little time and effort to learn the strategy, but that time and effort is usually put in by the raid leader, who teaches everyone else how to do the raid. You listen. You do what you're supposed to do when you're supposed to do it. The only hard part about raiding is when your fellow raiders don't listen, don't understand, and don't do what they are supposed to do when they are supposed to do it. So, I just laugh whenever I read posts about how freakin' hard raiding is and how deserving raiders are and how undeserving people who don't waste their time this way are.

I'm thankful every new raid for the one person in our group that goes into the raid by himself, learns everything, then teaches it to us all. I'm sure that every other raid group is grateful for their one person that does the same thing. I don't know how they survive long enough to do it, nor how they deal with the 11 pieces of deadweight that sit there slack-jawed waiting for instructions, but they do it.

And thank goodness, too - my poor brain can barely handle the challenge of solo content in LOTRO, where I have to sometimes remember to tab back in to loot the mob after auto-attacking it to death.

Originally Posted by Kongas

My non-raid geared hunter can solo blast through any skirmish on t3 at duo settings. (But you get no worthwhile reward for it with the 'not using the instance finder' penalty imposed.)

Are you including Icy Crevasse in "any" skirmish, just curious? I'd bet most folks even with great gear and decent skills can't consistently complete it on level T3 solo, much less "blast through it". If you get the wrong mobs/LTs, it can be really pretty nasty...

That said, the solo "challenges" out there, mostly involving doing group content solo. But other than some odd examples (soloing Stoneheight for relics and IXP pills is a nice deal), the rewards are not there. Soloing Fangorn's Edge is a challenge (gather it has been done, not by me), but time/reward isn't really so good compared to running with a group. But that said, forum folks aside, I'm not really convinced there is a great market for really hard solo content. If they added it as an avenue to good gear, and it was ACTUALLY really hard, most folks would fail. They would complain, it would get easier. Those who want a challenge would then complain, etc.

Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise

If they added it as an avenue to good gear, and it was ACTUALLY really hard, most folks would fail. They would complain, it would get easier. Those who want a challenge would then complain, etc.

This has actually happened, and it didn't even involve any good gear. 'Death from Below'. Check it out.

SNy

Originally Posted by Lestache

I'm thankful every new raid for the one person in our group that goes into the raid by himself, learns everything, then teaches it to us all. I'm sure that every other raid group is grateful for their one person that does the same thing.

I feel sorry for your raid leader. That's not how it works for us, we work it out as a group.

ps. As a side note good news from Turbine: Update 8- Top end gear will be mailed to all characters upon release and new end game pie delivery dailies to fill the time until update 9. Turns out Holly Hornblower has customers all over middle earth.

Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise

Are you including Icy Crevasse in "any" skirmish, just curious? I'd bet most folks even with great gear and decent skills can't consistently complete it on level T3 solo, much less "blast through it". If you get the wrong mobs/LTs, it can be really pretty nasty...

That said, the solo "challenges" out there, mostly involving doing group content solo. But other than some odd examples (soloing Stoneheight for relics and IXP pills is a nice deal), the rewards are not there. Soloing Fangorn's Edge is a challenge (gather it has been done, not by me), but time/reward isn't really so good compared to running with a group. But that said, forum folks aside, I'm not really convinced there is a great market for really hard solo content. If they added it as an avenue to good gear, and it was ACTUALLY really hard, most folks would fail. They would complain, it would get easier. Those who want a challenge would then complain, etc.

There really is no time/reward for soloing end-game content. This is why LOTRO is not a solo friendly game, despite the 65 or 70 levels of easy mode content. In the end, raiders have a far easier time getting gear (within a day or two or week or two of new content release, depending on content) compared with soloers, who actually may never get anything decent because the time/reward ratio is completely lopsided against them. LOTRO is not solo friendly at end game.

I'm not so sure about that "solo folks would fail at hard content" comment. Yes, Death From Below was difficult, and downright impossible depending on your class. But I know a lot of players who relished it and were quite proud to accomplish it and did it daily. And others who tried repeatedly, despite the handicaps of class and poor gear, and eventually succeeded. But the rewards (a gold star) made it very worthwhile. This is the solitary example of a difficult solo endeavor with a worthwhile reward.

Despite my somewhat flip comments on this thread, efforts to squeeze players into categories that define them are really doomed to failure. I know raiders who hate to quest and only want to raid. I've raided with people who as soon as they get what they want (deed, drop, whatever), leave the group. I've raided with people who cannot follow the simplest instructions. I've raided with people who play their classes in such a superior fashion, I just want to watch them play to see what they do. I've also known players who have accomplished every single deed, quest, rep, and festival activity and are great in fellowships and raids and much sought after.

So the thing about these threads that I am always trying to counterbalance is some posters' conviction that players with different play styles are unworthy, indifferent, and losers, whether it is raiders dissing solo players, or solo players dissing raiders. Unfortunately, raiders seem to take the perspective that they are superior and soloers are lesser, undeserving, failed players, and that attitude always gets my ire up so I am almost always posting in defense of soloing.

People are vastly different, approach the world from extremely different perspectives, and desire entirely different things. Even when they pursue the same thing it is often for wildly varying reasons. There are no easy, simplistic answers when dealing with people. It is always complicated and multifaceted. The clumping of people together to conveniently label them and dismiss them and their desires is the crutch of a lazy mind. Raiders are not all elitist jerks, soloers are not all lazy dimwits. There are just as many jerk soloers as there are lazy dumb raiders.

But, my forecast of the future stands. LOTRO does not reward solo end-game players; it simply tolerates them. Therefore, whatever solo activity is planned will be harsh and almost prohibitively time-intensive. Soloers will still be grinding away for their solo reward long after raiders are fully geared and bored with the late-coming instances.

Originally Posted by GalateaOrea

There really is no time/reward for soloing end-game content. This is why LOTRO is not a solo friendly game, despite the 65 or 70 levels of easy mode content. In the end, raiders have a far easier time getting gear (within a day or two or week or two of new content release, depending on content) compared with soloers, who actually may never get anything decent because the time/reward ratio is completely lopsided against them. LOTRO is not solo friendly at end game.

Hold on... before RoI the raid armour sets were only available as drops from bosses... you know 1 coin/12 people on a weekly lock. That's not getting the set within a day or two, that's within 12 weeks or 3 months if you have a fixed group and beat the entire raid from the start. They explicitly changed this with RoI because people kept complaining that was too hard to get and now you're saying it's not fair because it's too easy?

Also one thing I keep missing in these discussions is: 99% of 'raiders' here are also soloers! Which means that if something is as quickly to get through soloing as through grouping, most people will solo for it. Simply because that way you don't have 11 to find, or who can make a mistake which screws you even if you do everything ok. Just look at the solo-ified epics: it used to be very difficult to find groups for it, but nowadays its impossible because if you lff for them all you get is 'Just solo it!'. So in order to keep a raiding-reward interesting, it has to be either more desirable than everything else or be much, much quicker to get the group-way (making up for the increased failure-rate). Not because that's what 'raiders deserve' but simply because otherwise those raiders won't really bother (yeah sure, they'll run a raid 2 or 3 times, but not night after night) and either quit or become soloers.

Originally Posted by Egonieser3

Well it's about friggin' time I get to get something without doing the so boring pug groups.
Hate group content and always had. Cheers for something that's my cup of tea for a change!

sorry but u made my day with this post
u hate grouping but u play a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER ONLINE GAME
hahahahahahahaahahahahahahahah aahahahahahahahaha
no i mean it ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhha hahahahahaahahahahahahahaahaha hahahahahahahahahah


story should be solo in every game everything else should be group based or u have no MMO

Mabie u should try starwars that hole game is solo and may as well be on a console system rather then the internet XD

Originally Posted by LordInvictus

sorry but u made my day with this post
u hate grouping but u play a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER ONLINE GAME
hahahahahahahaahahahahahahahah aahahahahahahahaha
no i mean it ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhha hahahahahaahahahahahahahaahaha hahahahahahahahahah


story should be solo in every game everything else should be group based or u have no MMO

Mabie u should try starwars that hole game is solo and may as well be on a console system rather then the internet XD

Sorry but you made my day with this post
I play a Massive Multiplayer ONLINE game, not a Massive Muliplayer GROUPING game.
hahahahahahahaahahahahahahahah aahahahahahahahaha
No, I mean it ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhha hahahahahaahahahahahahahaahaha hahahahahahahahahah

I tried SWTOR. It's boring, not nearly as much stuff to do as LOTRO. And all that voiceover is vastly overrated.

Originally Posted by GalateaOrea

I'm not so sure about that "solo folks would fail at hard content" comment. Yes, Death From Below was difficult, and downright impossible depending on your class. But I know a lot of players who relished it and were quite proud to accomplish it and did it daily. And others who tried repeatedly, despite the handicaps of class and poor gear, and eventually succeeded. But the rewards (a gold star) made it very worthwhile. This is the solitary example of a difficult solo endeavor with a worthwhile reward.

Consider the bitter complaints that Icy Crevasse created, and how many people have said they'll never run it again. Yes, Tier 1 Icy was too hard compared to other Tier 1 skirmishes, calibration wasn't quite correct. But still, there was lots of complaining about it. Not clear that for MANY people hard sells. And similar for Death from Below, which for some classes did take real application of skills and creativity (was pretty easy for my Captain though), though wouldn't say "impossible". Lots of complaints.

I personally think they should do "hard" solo content largely as skirmishes, and give better rewards for the higher tiers. Why? Wicked hard to balance solo content so any class has a roughly equal shot at it. Skirmish soldiers give classes chances to compensate for their weakness, whether that is DPS, CC, self-healing, etc. So you can make Skirms harder without having to sweat so much about the class balance issues. Since Skirmishes can be run at tiers, more people see the content, making the development effort more worthwhile. Current problem is that T3 skirmishes don't have an adequate reward/time ratio...

Talking of skirmishes. Imo t1 should be easy enough so you can make it without breaking a sweat if you know even a little about your class (read: NOT go melee as a minstrel... or ranged as a burg (we brought along a "ranged" burg once for saruman... was interesting t say the least. He did manage to put up reveal weakness though... on the real Saruman)). t2 should be for those wanting a challenge and you'd have to have a decent knowledge of your class to do it. t3 should be a pain and you'd have to utilize every ounce of skill you have to be able to beat it. Rewards should be adjusted accordingly... and no, that does not mean higher droprates on bounties.

Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise

Are you including Icy Crevasse in "any" skirmish, just curious?

No - you're absolutely right. I forgot I always exclude that from my pick list nowadays. I did it once at t3 duo but it involved way too much dying. T3 solo is fine for hunters, especially if you go 5 yellow and hot swap between dps and CC configured weapon sets to get max benefit from CC.

I tend to do a helluva lot of skirmishes as for various reasons I can't raid very often so I've gotten a lot of practice. It's frustrating to have so many medallions and not be able to convert to seals or not be able to spend seals on the higher class armour because I can't get the relevant raid deed done.

EDITED to add: I don't raid much not because I'm a 'poor' player but because I'm in a small RP kin who can barely manage a 6 man skirmish night and because in real life I could be called away at any time at a moments notice. When I do raid I do fine as i know how to play a hunter and he's on 14 across the board virtues with the best non-raid that can be had.

Originally Posted by Nickysmom

Sorry but you made my day with this post
I play a Massive Multiplayer ONLINE game, not a Massive Muliplayer GROUPING game.
hahahahahahahaahahahahahahahah aahahahahahahahaha
No, I mean it ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhha hahahahahaahahahahahahahaahaha hahahahahahahahahah

I tried SWTOR. It's boring, not nearly as much stuff to do as LOTRO. And all that voiceover is vastly overrated.

Thank you for this. I don't understand where people get Massive Multiplayer Online game means you have to group with people or you are doing it wrong. No where in Massive Multiplayer Online game does it say group. I like interacting with people while I game but I don't always like to group with people.

Originally Posted by Fralin

t3 should be a pain and you'd have to utilize every ounce of skill you have to be able to beat it. Rewards should be adjusted accordingly... and no, that does not mean higher droprates on bounties.

Absolutely. The rewards for doing T3 are to all intents and purposes the same as doing T1. Less when you realise you can do 2 or 3 at T1 in the time it takes to do a single T3.

Originally Posted by Ingaras

So in order to keep a raiding-reward interesting, it has to be either more desirable than everything else or be much, much quicker to get the group-way (making up for the increased failure-rate). Not because that's what 'raiders deserve' but simply because otherwise those raiders won't really bother (yeah sure, they'll run a raid 2 or 3 times, but not night after night) and either quit or become soloers.

The trouble is - to get Raid gear now is an impossible grind for casual or semi casual people. So many seals and a raid deed gateway. In my experience that discourages a lot of people from doing raids. You're never going to be able to get the raid set so why bother?

For me the later Moria/Mirkwood system was best. Good content that was fun to run in 6 man pugs, with tokens dropping for everyone to slowly collect. Good drops to roll on and a Raid to get the final piece.

Is i wanted to play solo, I would go for Skyrim or something..

Originally Posted by TexN

Is i wanted to play solo, I would go for Skyrim or something..

Skyrim and LOTRO are very different and the differences have nothing to do with grouping.

Originally Posted by Kongas

The trouble is - to get Raid gear now is an impossible grind for casual or semi casual people. So many seals and a raid deed gateway. In my experience that discourages a lot of people from doing raids. You're never going to be able to get the raid set so why bother?

For me the later Moria/Mirkwood system was best. Good content that was fun to run in 6 man pugs, with tokens dropping for everyone to slowly collect. Good drops to roll on and a Raid to get the final piece.

I hear you. The buggy / very hard BG Raid & the content drought of 2010 proved the deathblow for my casual kin. Most got bored, left to play WoW & never came back to Lotro.

Ive simply given up on any expectations of getting good gear. I havent done an instance since Northcotton farm. Dont expect ill ever do another either. I havent even beeen able to do any LG quests.

Any solo options to FEASIBLY earn a reward would be very welcome atm.

I'd love to see end-game be 3 and 6 man content ... challenge and coordination based. Leave 12+ content to skirmish raid style content ... I always enjoyed the small group battling a great enemy; fits in with a Fellowship ideal and even takes me back to the old days of table top. Having all content 3 and 6 man would solve many issues ... just make the mechanics fun yet challenging ... with various tiers of difficulty and rewards.

Originally Posted by Kheld_GB

I hear you. The buggy / very hard BG Raid & the content drought of 2010 proved the deathblow for my casual kin. Most got bored, left to play WoW & never came back to Lotro.

Ive simply given up on any expectations of getting good gear. I havent done an instance since Northcotton farm. Dont expect ill ever do another either. I havent even beeen able to do any LG quests.

Any solo options to FEASIBLY earn a reward would be very welcome atm.

I think this game is much more fun when one realizes it's not gear-centric. My kin and I never raid, yet we still find things to do for quite a few hours a week. From three mans, duos, skirms, leveling alts, crafting to helping new players, we always find something to do.

I feel the 'Raid Gear' is not worth the effort. I believe most players feel the same way but haven't learned to vote with their money. Or in this case time. Then again, maybe they have and Turbine is experimenting to see if they can gain more players by removing the 'Raid for gear' aspect than they would lose for not having it.

Sadly Turbine put their foot in a bear trap when they added the first raid. If they don't add one with each update you see a large stink on the forums by a small few. These people then cry out to the game-zines which in turn denounce Turbine. So Turbine feels they must include the costly instances to prevent this outcry.

IMHO I think Turbine loses money on these endeavors, as not enough player hours are spent on raids. Thus the plan to release RoR without a raid. I would have like them to have kept to the plan of charging for the Raid. This way players could have voted with $$ instead of time.

But since it is what it is, I'll continue to vote with my time and not run Raids.

Originally Posted by Kongas

Absolutely. The rewards for doing T3 are to all intents and purposes the same as doing T1. Less when you realise you can do 2 or 3 at T1 in the time it takes to do a single T3.

I think this is because they've reduced the rewards from skirmishes across the board. Skirmish raids have a chest with loot, but all others have marks/medallions, and very few of them at that. So all that extra work for less than 10 marks is not worth it. If you want medallions, you basically have to do the group instances.

Actually when RoI was new most of the skirmish raid leaders would skip optional encounters and be annoyed with those who asked to do them to get medallions. They were on a tight time schedule to get the chest loot. After a month or two though just about every skirmish raid stopped to get medallions. It was a split with the early group having more loot oriented traditional raiders who had no traditional raid to go to but who had tons of medallions from the instances, and later groups having more casual players who don't often run Foundry but realized they could get good Draigoch gear or upgrade legacies with medallions.

Originally Posted by Kongas

For me the later Moria/Mirkwood system was best. Good content that was fun to run in 6 man pugs, with tokens dropping for everyone to slowly collect. Good drops to roll on and a Raid to get the final piece.

Also even before the medallions system, you could win a lot of rolls for the items in PUG groups. As soon as the land rush from traditional raiders was over, people would stop rolling for coins if they already had that piece. And even at the start the traditional raiders did not want the coin that only gave purple gear that they considered vendor trash, so I got a few of those which were significant upgrades over quest rewards and crafted gear.

I think they should have had a hybrid system. Run an instance once, even on quest mode, and you get an item that is required to get the teal Moria piece of a certain type, plus medallions. Thus you can not fill out your entire set of gear by running only Grand Stairs. At very least people should have to run three or four different ones.

Additionally I think the challenge mode should not have given greater number of medallions or better tokens but only better loot in the chests; also challenges and quests should not have been mutually exclusive. Thus no penalty for doing quests, and more chance of getting quests done in a PUG even if the leader is focused on gear only.

Originally Posted by Lohi

Also even before the medallions system, you could win a lot of rolls for the items in PUG groups. As soon as the land rush from traditional raiders was over, people would stop rolling for coins if they already had that piece. And even at the start the traditional raiders did not want the coin that only gave purple gear that they considered vendor trash, so I got a few of those which were significant upgrades over quest rewards and crafted gear.

I think they should have had a hybrid system. Run an instance once, even on quest mode, and you get an item that is required to get the teal Moria piece of a certain type, plus medallions. Thus you can not fill out your entire set of gear by running only Grand Stairs. At very least people should have to run three or four different ones.

Additionally I think the challenge mode should not have given greater number of medallions or better tokens but only better loot in the chests; also challenges and quests should not have been mutually exclusive. Thus no penalty for doing quests, and more chance of getting quests done in a PUG even if the leader is focused on gear only.

Agree ... farming 1 instances needs to go and I think Turbine needs to focus more on quality 3 and 6 mans ... large raids is a tired design. Most people don't have the time or social contacts to get into the click of a 12/24 man team.

Although Grand Stair did get farmed the Challenge Mode Daily bonus did encourage us to run other instances. Grand Stair, to me anyway, seemed to have had a lot more work put into it than the other ones. It was just a very fun place to run with pugs I found.

When I do raid I never have as much fun. There's way to much pressure to do things in a very precise way, just trailing along doing precisely as you are told and nothing more than you are told. For me it is just nothing like the fun to be had in the Moria 6 mans when things began to go pear-shaped and players had to think on their feet and improvise. And there was the fun of going along to help out pugs even when you had the gear, which was great in social terms.

I get a lot more satisfaction from that sort of experience than from methodically going through the well-worked out Raid game plan step by step.

Foe me, Moria was LOTRO at its finest. The instances were great and promoted social gameplay, giving a lot of players their first real experience of grouping in an unpressured environment where the consequences of failure wasn't as catastrophic as wiping a raid an hour in and wasting everyone's evening.

Generally I feel we all pays our money, we all have different play styles (and life pressures) and get enjoyment from different aspects of game play so there should be different paths to the same goals.

I'd like LOTRO to recapture the spirit of Moria. For a brief moment the 12 man skirmishes did that - but that was fleeting and nothing like as much fun as the Moria instances. Other people's mileage may vary.

Originally Posted by Kongas

Although Grand Stair did get farmed the Challenge Mode Daily bonus did encourage us to run other instances. Grand Stair, to me anyway, seemed to have had a lot more work put into it than the other ones. It was just a very fun place to run with pugs I found.

When I do raid I never have as much fun. There's way to much pressure to do things in a very precise way, just trailing along doing precisely as you are told and nothing more than you are told. For me it is just nothing like the fun to be had in the Moria 6 mans when things began to go pear-shaped and players had to think on their feet and improvise. And there was the fun of going along to help out pugs even when you had the gear, which was great in social terms.

I get a lot more satisfaction from that sort of experience than from methodically going through the well-worked out Raid game plan step by step.

Foe me, Moria was LOTRO at its finest. The instances were great and promoted social gameplay, giving a lot of players their first real experience of grouping in an unpressured environment where the consequences of failure wasn't as catastrophic as wiping a raid an hour in and wasting everyone's evening.

Generally I feel we all pays our money, we all have different play styles (and life pressures) and get enjoyment from different aspects of game play so there should be different paths to the same goals.

I'd like LOTRO to recapture the spirit of Moria. For a brief moment the 12 man skirmishes did that - but that was fleeting and nothing like as much fun as the Moria instances. Other people's mileage may vary.

I agree with most of that. I was not a big fan of Moria in terms of questing (although it did grow on me over time) but the 6-man instances were special.

And I agree, GS was popular, and usually the first choice to get the daily challenge and maximise medallions, but after that the obvious option was to go and get the challenge in one of the others, and often PUGs put together to do GS moved on to another 6-man if the GS run had gone well as soon as someone suggested it. Good times.

There seems to be an impression that the solo players are being oppressed by the vast minority of "hardcore raiders". Unless those with gripes against raiders are exceptionally sensitive, I only see one reason why such players stick out more than others (ie. players who plainly don't know how to play but insist its NEVER their fault): Gear Envy.

If this wasn't the case, then this solo vs. raiders debate would be a non-issue.

This is the problem with the "I'm a solo players with a REAL life and deserve to get loot like those no-life raiders" argument... Raiders do both solo AND raid. I know some raiders don't solo much, but many if not most do. Hence, they will know how much effort it is to get that X loot. Trust me, no matter how much a solo player solos, a hardcore raider will out-solo you because he will have more time and do it with twice the efficiency. Hence, if loot for you is worth grinding for solo, raiders will have it far sooner than anyone else. With that said, you have to understand that these kinds of players want something to do that meets their level of challenge. Solo play can be difficult, but like any game, practice and familiarity makes any POSSIBLE solo challenge a pushover.

The dynamic of playing with or against other players is that the challenge goes beyond how much you've practiced but how well you play with and against other players. Its a totally different "puzzle" to figure out the weaknesses and strengths of other players. Many times, the fun is in that as well as solving instances and raids. Hence I hate players who refuse to work with non-ideal players with non-ideal gear. There are players who are incorrigible and therefore impossible to work with but giving a newer player a chance and seeing that pay off is reward in itself.

A poster's comment about Moria being the best time for group play holds true for me too. However, I don't see that as a result of turbine's fault, at least not entirely, but the fact that players eventually grow jaded by the group dynamic and negative experiences tend to be far more salient than enjoyable ones. It was awesome to run players through an instance which they deemed "impossible" for their skill level then walk them through it. I had done all the moria instances dozens if not a hundred times AFTER I got my gear because it was fun to go with different group make ups and different people. It was basically doing the same job with different resources. Unfortunately, due partly to the currency system, people aren't forced to learn an instance they feel extremely difficult (not that there are any at the moment). This was most apparent during OD when the difficulty had shot up for the 6 mans. For those who wanted to master it, it eventually became easy (given the right group). But so many more players refused to attempt it after failing a handful of times. If they were "forced" to learn it to get their piece like when moria first came out, many of those players would have tried it at least a few more times.

Even during SoM days, both warg pens and dungeons of dg were rarely played. Eventually it became a matter of the best loot/currency with the least amount of time. Doing a difficult/long instance has little to no appeal to most players these days. Of course, in an ideal world, people would play instances for variety and fun. But let's face it, players rarely ever do. Especially those who whine the most about LOTRO having poor end game (which is not to say current end game is great...).

Originally Posted by Fankdango

Even during SoM days, both warg pens and dungeons of dg were rarely played. Eventually it became a matter of the best loot/currency with the least amount of time. Doing a difficult/long instance has little to no appeal to most players these days. Of course, in an ideal world, people would play instances for variety and fun. But let's face it, players rarely ever do. Especially those who whine the most about LOTRO having poor end game (which is not to say current end game is great...).

I think SoM was where Turbine began losing the plot, not only in terms of quality and value but for balance also. An insanely long raid with semi-random insta-death fail mode built right into the end along with a total imbalance between Sword Halls and the other 3 mans. Sword Halls seemed deliberately designed for players to quickly farm.

It just seems that now they try and use insane grinds for gear that is conspicuously better than anything else to fill the long gaps between content.

They don't seem to understand that this actually discourages more casual players from ever experiencing Raid content. I would say that hopefully all this Turbine talk of solo paths is a recognition of this but I've been around long enough to know the yawning chasm between what they appear to be saying and what is finally delivered.

I'd just prefer more quality three and six mans that causal players can pug together and steadily work through them for the reward of the good gear now gated behing raids and raid-locked grinds.

However I don't believe Turbine is into producing the quantity and quality of content of the Moria instances any more.

Originally Posted by GalateaOrea

I'm not so sure about that "solo folks would fail at hard content" comment. Yes, Death From Below was difficult, and downright impossible depending on your class. But I know a lot of players who relished it and were quite proud to accomplish it and did it daily. And others who tried repeatedly, despite the handicaps of class and poor gear, and eventually succeeded. But the rewards (a gold star) made it very worthwhile. This is the solitary example of a difficult solo endeavor with a worthwhile reward.

Are you kidding? Death From Below, "a high difficulty solo challenge quest", offers rewards that are only marginally better (+17 silver, +400 rep) than the much, much easier Badges of Dishonour available at the same level. Like many, I failed multiple times until I figured out a strategy that kept everyone alive. After that it was pretty simple, just follow the recipe. If I didn't lose focus and screw up I'd probably succeed. And yet somehow this process is considered so much easier than doing exactly the same thing in Barad Guldur that it doesn't deserve any rare drops, much less ones of comparable stats. Sorry, no class gear for solo players because apparently we have no idea what it's like trying to learn an instance and develop an efficient battle plan while riding herd on weaklings who don't follow orders. We're just jealous.

The truth is that the quality of my gear doesn't impact your enjoyment of raids, unless you consider it a status symbol that proves you're better than me. And that's not my problem. To be fair, the majority of raiders I know really couldn't care less what I have. It's only the vocal "hardcore" minority that thinks I'm a failure if I don't keep up with the Joneses, and that creating equality of opportunity somehow diminishes their accomplishments. I get enough of that in the real world. This is just a game and it should be fun for everyone. Being treated as inferior for choosing to take on different personal challenges isn't fun. Allowing me to earn top quality gear that would assist me in, for example, soloing LG so I can buy that map table, doesn't take anything away from you. Gaining reputation is still the same grind, but I'm excluded because I can't do it alone. Killing a troll by myself is easier than killing one with five other people? Really? Does that mean all those groups in LG don't deserve access to the faction vendor because it was easier for them? Of course not. Unbalanced rewards don't create a social atmosphere, they only serve to encourage elitism and pit us against each other.

Originally Posted by Toranoga

Sadly Turbine put their foot in a bear trap when they added the first raid. If they don't add one with each update you see a large stink on the forums by a small few. These people then cry out to the game-zines which in turn denounce Turbine. So Turbine feels they must include the costly instances to prevent this outcry.

Now there is something I really haven't understood fully to this date. I know I am generalizing here, but anyway: Developers put lots of money, time and effort in creating these big, great (raid/group) instances with all kinds of mechanisms (for example Draigoch lip sync tech), graphic effects and all that for certain group of people who try to run it from start to finish as fast as they can to maximize time/loot ratio. Then there are solo people who would very much to see all these magnificent places but they never can enter or if they try, they are killed by first mob in the instance.

I don't understand why devs don't want to "reuse" their instance spaces for different group sizes: solo, small fellowship, full fellowship and raid. The mechanics do not need to be the same in all sizes (nor they can't be), and that's okay. Just fill it with weaker mobs for solo (or use Inspired Greatness and tweak it if needed) and change some certain things how instances work in bigger group sizes. All right, skirmishes are a bit like it, but why can't instances be? And since blue name recently confirmed, they are not planning it either at the moment.

Personally I enjoyed both solo and heroic (fellowship version) instances in EQ2, and liked to see both versions but enjoyed solo version more because I could do it on my own timetable whenever I wanted. It COULD be possible for LOTRO as well, for example how they handled Volume 2 Book 6 chapter 8 (or was it that? The instance in Foundations of Stone): it's the same quite long instance no matter if you do it solo or in group, but certain mechanics are a bit different in group versus solo, and you have inspired greatness if you had less than 6 in your group.

All I am saying is that if devs pay a lot of time and resources creating these instances, they should utilize them to all players and playstyles. That's what I would do

Originally Posted by Oraekja

The truth is that the quality of my gear doesn't impact your enjoyment of raids, unless you consider it a status symbol that proves you're better than me. And that's not my problem. To be fair, the majority of raiders I know really couldn't care less what I have. It's only the vocal "hardcore" minority that thinks I'm a failure if I don't keep up with the Joneses, and that creating equality of opportunity somehow diminishes their accomplishments. I get enough of that in the real world. This is just a game and it should be fun for everyone. Being treated as inferior for choosing to take on different personal challenges isn't fun. Allowing me to earn top quality gear that would assist me in, for example, soloing LG so I can buy that map table, doesn't take anything away from you. Gaining reputation is still the same grind, but I'm excluded because I can't do it alone. Killing a troll by myself is easier than killing one with five other people? Really? Does that mean all those groups in LG don't deserve access to the faction vendor because it was easier for them? Of course not. Unbalanced rewards don't create a social atmosphere, they only serve to encourage elitism and pit us against each other.

So successful raiders = elitist players. With that logic soloer = fail players who don't know what a tank a healer and dps does in a group.

It's not whether you deserve something or not, its whether you played the game to earn the gear so that you can do instances and raids that require better gear to complete. No matter what you say about raiders, they USE that gear extensively. And eventually it gets to the point where you just want to finish the raid in its entirety even after you've gotten the gear you wanted in the first place. The only time raiding groups stop raiding is NOT when they get their gear but when they've completed it so many times, its become a chore. At which point they take a break until the next expansion or raid.

So let's shift the question to NEED rather than WANT. Do solo players need FAs and end game gear? Or is it just a question of vanity for them?

Giving soloers end game gear equivalent to what you would get from end game raids is not a question of being fair to raiders, its a matter of encouraging them suffer through endless hours of trial and error trying to get that boss down. Even with the loot, groups find it hard to stick it out. At times you have to fight for inches, any form of progress to push the group forward into a threshold. At end, when you get it done, there is the greatest sense of accomplishment that can be had in ANY game. After which, those raiders do want something special for their efforts. If anything else, as a momento of getting that raid done after trying so darn hard. If you think that's foolish, then that's your opinion. Belittling the efforts of raiders, however, is uncalled for. If you want to avoid groups so much, fine. But don't expect all content catered to YOUR taste and play style.

When I heard there was awesome gear in the moors I griped that it sucked there was no other way to get it except to pvp (or quests that always lead to pvp). But I wanted it bad enough to go into the moors and learn. I eventually discovered I enjoyed it. It sucked at the beginning and is still frustrating most of the time, but I was encouraged to play it enough that I eventually enjoyed it.

Hence, when it comes down to it, its this simple. If you don't have exceptional gear only coming out of raids, no one will put the time and effort to put a group together and constantly bang their head on the wall until they finally defeat the raid bosses. At that point, there will be no raid groups and therefore no need for raids. Then it becomes nothing BUT solo content. Then YOU'LL be happy. Unfortunately for you, that hasn't happened to lotro yet.

Originally Posted by Fankdango

So successful raiders = elitist players.

That's not what I said at all. I made it clear that I don't attribute this attitude to everyone. The elitists are probably the same jocks who mocked me in high school for hanging out by myself in the library reading Lord of the Rings. (NB, this does not mean I think everyone who plays sports is elitist.)

Originally Posted by Fankdango

Do solo players need FAs and end game gear? Or is it just a question of vanity for them?

From what I hear, having the best gear isn't a requirement to be a successful raider either. I guess the need depends on what we are trying to accomplish. There are several chapters (Volume 2 Epilogues) of the epic story I cannot complete, and landscape mobs around my level that I cannot defeat. I still haven't been able to finish one of my class quests (In Harm's Way) almost 20 levels later. And, of course, there's the benefit in grinding deeds and marks. So yeah, I "need" better gear inasmuch as being merely adequate isn't satisfying for me either. For some soloists I'm sure it's just vanity, but that's also true for some raiders.

Originally Posted by Fankdango

At end, when you get it done, there is the greatest sense of accomplishment that can be had in ANY game. After which, those raiders do want something special for their efforts.

In Death From Below, the sense of accomplishment is evidently supposed to be reward enough. You want something special for your efforts, and so do I. I conquered that challenge repeatedly and got bupkis. Granting better rewards does not take anything away from you, it just gives people the option of different paths to reach their goal. My previous comparison still applies.. if I can manage to complete the quests in LG, your logic says I deserve better gear than a group because it was a more difficult challenge for me. That would make ME an elitist. I say I don't because they did the work too. The important thing is that we're all putting forth an effort and not lazily waiting for gear to arrive in the mail. Whether the tasks be easy or hard, that required input is what keeps us involved (and subscribing) no matter what our play style. That deserves recognition.

Originally Posted by Fankdango

Belittling the efforts of raiders, however, is uncalled for.

I haven't belittled the efforts of raiders or said they don't deserve gear. I merely said some raiders shouldn't be belittling my efforts. I know most of them work hard. I work hard too, and some of them skate. But we all pay for the game.

Originally Posted by Fankdango

If you want to avoid groups so much, fine. But don't expect all content catered to YOUR taste and play style.

Exactly. I'm just asking that they add some more challenging and rewarding solo content (which raiders are also free to pursue if they wish), and the request isn't just about me. It's not like I'm asking for a Draigoch-slayer title for killing a bunny. (Although a couple of them look like pretty bad-tempered rodents.)

Originally Posted by Fankdango

If you don't have exceptional gear only coming out of raids, no one will put the time and effort to put a group together and constantly bang their head on the wall until they finally defeat the raid bosses.

That's absurd. People will do the raids because they like playing in groups, or because there are unique items specific to that raid, or because it's just awesomely constructed. Crikey, didn't you just tell us "I had done all the moria instances dozens if not a hundred times AFTER I got my gear because it was fun to go with different group make ups and different people."? I'm not complaining about being locked out of group content, I'm complaining about being locked out of an entire tier of items that is only available in group content.

Overall I've been pretty happy with Turbine and I'm not threatening to quit if I don't get my way. I'm not trying to instigate conflict between play styles, I'm trying to ease it. It's not about being better than someone else, it's about being inspired to become better than we used to be. I'm simply expressing my opinions and desires to improve the experience in the hope that the developers recognize that nobody should be alienated from this epic in order to maximize profits, and we all deserve our own slice of heaven if we're willing to work for it. Even if it's easier to reach for some. I think Tolkien would agree.

Originally Posted by Oraekja

In Death From Below, the sense of accomplishment is evidently supposed to be reward enough. You want something special for your efforts, and so do I. I conquered that challenge repeatedly and got bupkis. Granting better rewards does not take anything away from you, it just gives people the option of different paths to reach their goal. My previous comparison still applies.. if I can manage to complete the quests in LG, your logic says I deserve better gear than a group because it was a more difficult challenge for me. That would make ME an elitist. I say I don't because they did the work too. The important thing is that we're all putting forth an effort and not lazily waiting for gear to arrive in the mail. Whether the tasks be easy or hard, that required input is what keeps us involved (and subscribing) no matter what our play style. That deserves recognition.

[...]

Exactly. I'm just asking that they add some more challenging and rewarding solo content (which raiders are also free to pursue if they wish), and the request isn't just about me. It's not like I'm asking for a Draigoch-slayer title for killing a bunny. (Although a couple of them look like pretty bad-tempered rodents.)

[...]

That's absurd. People will do the raids because they like playing in groups, or because there are unique items specific to that raid, or because it's just awesomely constructed. Crikey, didn't you just tell us "I had done all the moria instances dozens if not a hundred times AFTER I got my gear because it was fun to go with different group make ups and different people."? I'm not complaining about being locked out of group content, I'm complaining about being locked out of an entire tier of items that is only available in group content.

One of the problems with rewarding both solo and group content equally is that we, as a community, have largely shown that we will take the path of least resistance to gear.

- The Blind One in DN had a special hard mode version. One kin did it, reported that there wasn't any extra loot or even a title, and everybody else stopped trying (save one other kin that did it months later).

- When the Moria instances were exploitable, it was darn near impossible to find a group that wanted to actually do the fights rather than stand in one spot and be invulnerable.

- When the Moria Medallions were introduced, people started running Grand Stairs almost exclusively because it was perceived to be the easiest. The harder Moria instances pretty much died. (Special Note: I would even see LFFs for GS asking for "level 65s only"... for a level 58 instance... yeesh.)

- The same thing applied to the Dol Guldur 3-mans. Sword Halls was far and away easier than the other two, so people mostly did that one to the exclusion of the other two.

- Inspired Greatness made Volume I soloable. It's also so overpowered that it's far easier to solo the epics on level than it is to do it with a full group, so hardly anyone (no one?) does them in a group anymore.

- Scaled instances: School and Library were the easiest, so were the most popular. Great Barrows were fairly easy as well, so were also popular. Annuminas Palace was sometimes run, but Gardens and Tombs were generally seen as too difficult, so were avoided. (Honorable Mention: people running level 50 Helegrod wings at level 65 just to farm the 'collect x items' quests to get their Helegrod gear.)

- Even solo quests. Death From Below offers a gold star as a reward, but was actually challenging. So people who wanted gold stars were more likely to kill a few Uruks, a dozen Wargs, or any other gold star quest besides the one that offered any challenge.

- And probably more that others can mention... those are what came to mind right away for me.

Given that, if Turbine were to decide to reward all play-styles equally, then what would happen to the more challenging content? Perhaps it gets completed by a few groups just for the challenge of it, then what? All those people go play other games until the next challenging content comes out? Turbine notices that they're spending a lot of development time on content that's getting 2-3 weeks of use and then being abandoned, so they stop making that content entirely?

I certainly don't know what would happen, but I don't want to find out.

Oh, and this isn't just a raid vs. solo issue. At various points in the game (including now), some of the best in slot items have come from crafting. If those same items could be obtained for far less time and effort, would anyone bother to craft? Why have crafting at all? A few of the other best in slot items come from landscape quests (Limlight Gorge reputation). If those same items could be purchased for a few gold with no rep, would anyone bother to earn LLG rep? Why have the quests at all, then?

Sure, some people will do those things because they enjoy doing them, but if there is an easier way to get the rewards from easier/less time-consuming activities then those harder activities become redundant.

Originally Posted by Lestache

One of the problems with rewarding both solo and group content equally is that we, as a community, have largely shown that we will take the path of least resistance to gear.

- The Blind One in DN had a special hard mode version. One kin did it, reported that there wasn't any extra loot or even a title, and everybody else stopped trying (save one other kin that did it months later).

- When the Moria instances were exploitable, it was darn near impossible to find a group that wanted to actually do the fights rather than stand in one spot and be invulnerable.

- When the Moria Medallions were introduced, people started running Grand Stairs almost exclusively because it was perceived to be the easiest. The harder Moria instances pretty much died. (Special Note: I would even see LFFs for GS asking for "level 65s only"... for a level 58 instance... yeesh.)

- The same thing applied to the Dol Guldur 3-mans. Sword Halls was far and away easier than the other two, so people mostly did that one to the exclusion of the other two.

- Inspired Greatness made Volume I soloable. It's also so overpowered that it's far easier to solo the epics on level than it is to do it with a full group, so hardly anyone (no one?) does them in a group anymore.

- Scaled instances: School and Library were the easiest, so were the most popular. Great Barrows were fairly easy as well, so were also popular. Annuminas Palace was sometimes run, but Gardens and Tombs were generally seen as too difficult, so were avoided. (Honorable Mention: people running level 50 Helegrod wings at level 65 just to farm the 'collect x items' quests to get their Helegrod gear.)

- Even solo quests. Death From Below offers a gold star as a reward, but was actually challenging. So people who wanted gold stars were more likely to kill a few Uruks, a dozen Wargs, or any other gold star quest besides the one that offered any challenge.

- And probably more that others can mention... those are what came to mind right away for me.

Given that, if Turbine were to decide to reward all play-styles equally, then what would happen to the more challenging content? Perhaps it gets completed by a few groups just for the challenge of it, then what? All those people go play other games until the next challenging content comes out? Turbine notices that they're spending a lot of development time on content that's getting 2-3 weeks of use and then being abandoned, so they stop making that content entirely?

I certainly don't know what would happen, but I don't want to find out.

Oh, and this isn't just a raid vs. solo issue. At various points in the game (including now), some of the best in slot items have come from crafting. If those same items could be obtained for far less time and effort, would anyone bother to craft? Why have crafting at all? A few of the other best in slot items come from landscape quests (Limlight Gorge reputation). If those same items could be purchased for a few gold with no rep, would anyone bother to earn LLG rep? Why have the quests at all, then?

Sure, some people will do those things because they enjoy doing them, but if there is an easier way to get the rewards from easier/less time-consuming activities then those harder activities become redundant.

^This. There are a few of us that want to do the content simply because we enjoy it. Because the content requires eleven other players, giving in to you solo players would make the game solo-only. There would be a few hardcore raid kins and all other kins would become become ineffective at raiding because there may never be enough interest to get twelve players at the same time. Soloers might take this to mean that the game should reflect what the consumer wants, and by my logic it seems that only a few want to raid, so why force those other "filler spots" to raid.

Because all those "fillers" do enjoy raiding. They may not enjoy it enough to run it with consistency without any reward. Without consistency it is not possible to learn raid content. If we don't learn the content, then we can't beat it. Raids w/no raid-specific gear become not only not reward worthy, they become frustratingly long-term and ultimately undoable by a majority of players.

In essence, you'll have enough players who want to raid, but not enough consistency from those players to make raiding possible. Therefore, you need raid-specific rewards to make the system possible. It's the only time you'll ever see me argue for a grind; i.e. making it necessary to run occasionally when I don't want to. Those "don't want to except for the loot" times are necessary in order to be able to run the content when "I want to run it because I enjoy raiding."

Originally Posted by Lestache

I'm thankful every new raid for the one person in our group that goes into the raid by himself, learns everything, then teaches it to us all. I'm sure that every other raid group is grateful for their one person that does the same thing. I don't know how they survive long enough to do it, nor how they deal with the 11 pieces of deadweight that sit there slack-jawed waiting for instructions, but they do it.

And thank goodness, too - my poor brain can barely handle the challenge of solo content in LOTRO, where I have to sometimes remember to tab back in to loot the mob after auto-attacking it to death.

I had to add that this made me lulz. I don't think the others got it. But Galea-whatever their name was is grossly misinformed about what it takes to learn and execute a raid. Now, to clarify, I certainly disagree with those who have said that soloers are less skilled. It can only be good that more solo players are geared so that they want to try group content (as long as there are raid-specific rewards that are good enough to draw players.) Our kin emphasizes teaching players and we're happy to invest in opening this really enjoyable aspect of play (raiding) to those who've never experienced it.

However, let's be clear. Learning a raid takes a serious amount of investment over time by a group of dedicated players. And no, the Raid Leader does not figure it out and teach everyone else. Please read a single post in the Raid progression forums before making these suggestions. Our kin is still working T2 on 2 wings and CM on more. It takes a long time and it is very difficult content. The skill required by raiders goes beyond what soloers require. This doesn't mean soloers aren't skilled....I was a soloer invited to raid. I was consistently invited back because they considered me a quality player. I'd love to see more soloers give raiding a shot. They'd find that there's a whole side of the game they're not enjoying and they'd have a chance to test themselves in a way they haven't before. They'd also realize it does require a specific skill set that goes beyond class skill/rotation, etc. (a skill set they may find they are equipped with but just haven't had the chance to flex.)

Originally Posted by Doulos

^This. There are a few of us that want to do the content simply because we enjoy it. Because the content requires eleven other players, giving in to you solo players would make the game solo-only. There would be a few hardcore raid kins and all other kins would become become ineffective at raiding because there may never be enough interest to get twelve players at the same time. Soloers might take this to mean that the game should reflect what the consumer wants, and by my logic it seems that only a few want to raid, so why force those other "filler spots" to raid.

Because all those "fillers" do enjoy raiding. They may not enjoy it enough to run it with consistency without any reward. Without consistency it is not possible to learn raid content. If we don't learn the content, then we can't beat it. Raids w/no raid-specific gear become not only not reward worthy, they become frustratingly long-term and ultimately undoable by a majority of players.

In essence, you'll have enough players who want to raid, but not enough consistency from those players to make raiding possible. Therefore, you need raid-specific rewards to make the system possible. It's the only time you'll ever see me argue for a grind; i.e. making it necessary to run occasionally when I don't want to. Those "don't want to" times are necessary in order to be able to run the content when we do want to run it.

So the logic here is Raids are in the game because a few players like them. Raids are expensive, so items everybody wants are gated behind them to force player that would not otherwise do them, well, do them so the cost would be justified.

I'm trying to think of another business model that works this way and am drawing a blank.

And if the only downside to not having Raids in LOTRO would be not having Raiding Kins anymore... well, no big lose in my book. I'll still have my Kin and we'll still be doing the same things we do day in and day out.

Originally Posted by Toranoga

So the logic here is Raids are in the game because a few players like them. Raids are expensive, so items everybody wants are gated behind them to force player that would not otherwise do them, well, do them so the cost would be justified.

I'm trying to think of another business model that works this way and am drawing a blank.

And if the only downside to not having Raids in LOTRO would be not having Raiding Kins anymore... well, no big lose in my book. I'll still have my Kin and we'll still be doing the same things we do day in and day out.

Apparently you missed the part where I pre-empted your argument and then responded to it. A lot of players like them, but not consistently enough to support the system without rewards. Without the system you'd lose those players. "Those players" are both committed and casual raiders. They don't force the players to do them....they require that every once in awhile you raid because you want reward rather than any penchant for that content on that particular evening (which, btw, ALL content does this...unless you're the rare bird that enjoys running Defense of the Prancing Pony several hundred times.) This is the foundation of all grouped content. If you lost the motivation to consistently group, those who want to regardless of loot won't have the available player pool and will quit the game. And let's be honest, one of the bigger reasons that non-raiders don't raid isn't because they don't want to, or that they don't enjoy it. It's because they don't have time or they don't belong to a kin/social group that can make it possible for them. Or like myself, they are introverts and don't really know how to reach out to raiders. I was lucky enough to be invited along for the ride and loved it. As a result, my co-founder and I decided to build our kin from a floundering group of solo/small groupers into a kin that had the means to enjoy ALL aspects of the game, from crafting to Raids.

I take it you skimmed my post because I said specifically that you would still have raiding kins. You'd have a consolidation of raiders into hardcore raiding kins. The moderate kins, the ones that welcome everyone into raids, would become ineffective. This happens all the time even with raiding as it currently stands. The difficulty in building a moderate raiding kin is one of the most underrated achievements in the game, imo. Those kins would lose one of the major draws that attracts people to their kin and possibly cause dissolution. Without moderate kins this game would lose a LOT of players. We have numerous players who let us know that being a part of the kin is why they remained even when the game took turns they didn't like.

Originally Posted by Toranoga

And if the only downside to not having Raids in LOTRO would be not having Raiding Kins anymore... well, no big lose in my book. I'll still have my Kin and we'll still be doing the same things we do day in and day out.

Hmmm. Sounds pretty selfish IMHO.

If they drop emotes, extra mounts, cosmetics, festivals, housing and some folks quit, no big lose in my book. I don't use those, and will still be doing the same things I do. Sucks for them. Not my way of thinking...

Given the sharper than ever profit focus of the WB era, I assume Turbine invests in raids because there is a business case for making them, btw...

I think Turbine have started down the wrong path & are now caught in a trap of their own making.

With LI's, Raid Armour Sets & the removal of the Stat cap there is now such an enormous performance gap between a raider & a new player or casual that its starving the endgame of new players to replace thoser who move on.

If your a f2p player you can basically give up of ever doing an endgame raid, theres no way for you to get yourself in an acceptable state to match the expectations of what Raider should have.