No way. It can compete, but if you're talking sheer number, I find it very hard to believe a Burg is going to out DPS the DPS classes. Maybe champs in single-target where they can't take advantage of the AoE DPS.
*****DISCLAIMER: The following might contain a few errors as I haven't had time to proof-read all of it; I just wanna get it posted asap as it's late and it's a looong post. Feel free to point out any mistakes so I can correct them*****
Originally Posted by Gilias
I've been busy for a few days - RL 'n stuff - but I'll try to write up the main points now and then include a bit of math in another post in a few days time.
In the meantime: perhaps you can help me quantifying the dps discrepancy between the two trait lines?
If you can't provide any parses I'll have to go by my own assumptions
I wanted to do this sooner, but never found the time for it. Change “days” with “weeks” and I’m more or less on time ^^
Originally Posted by Roberticus
I'm not about to do any of your work for you. You were the one who went on about numbers and math. You stated: "Both are decent buffs but they don't make up for your loss in dps even though the group gains some" and I asked how you accounted for this. Now you ask me to help you "quantify the dps discrepancy" and provide you with parses after the fact. Either you have the data you used to arrive at "it's basic math and the answer is simple: QK is best", or you don't.
Fine. I'll go with my own estimations then.
Originally Posted by Gilias
I said earlier that both of the effects are nice buffs - I'll have to modify that a bit:
The subtle stab trait - how much resistance does it take away? Resistance really only matters for dps RK's and to a lesser extent LM's but with raiding gear both classes should have enough finesse to have almost none of their attacks resisted in the first place, which means the effect of the stab-buff is almost non-existant.
In short: the -resist rating debuff from subtle stab is utterly useless when it comes to increasing raid-dps. With finesse the rk's can already reduce resists to a minimum. The LM is debuff and CC-specced, which includes stacking finesse. The other buff is the interesting one, but how much does +2% crit chance translate into, damage-wise?
Originally Posted by Roberticus
In short: the math isn't so basic. And this goes right to my point: I don't see how anyone has been, or will be, able to conduct an accurate comparison and come up with a "winner", especially in a raid environment.
I don't know what "the numbers" are. I don't know how much of a resistance debuff is applied, nor how much of a critical vulnerability debuff is applied; neither do I know how much or how little DPS benefit any of it applies over the course of a sustained battle. I'm hoping that anyone who claims to know "the numbers" can educate me. Unfortunately, no one has provided anything of substance so far.
Oh but it is very basic math. In fact it's so basic I wonder why no one else has bothered posting it yet. For all the obsessing with "lack of proof" and "burden of evidence" and all that nonsense, everyone seems to forget they can take a look at the numbers themselves. And when I say "numbers" I mean the actual numbers – the differences between the two trait-lines. But more about that later.
First off:
1) How much does +2% crit rating increase group dps?
Assumptions:
Many classes have crit multipliers. For the sake of making a general point I assume that all "dps-classes" have +30% crit multipliers and +15% dev crit multipliers (dev magnitude - which is the same thing - from the LI settings). In reality some classes have more, some classes have less (dps-guards anyone? ). By all means do question this if you have any valid points to make.
All dps classes can cap their crit rating in a raid setting. This means 25% crit and 10% dev crit chance. This is a simplistic view to make the math even more basic.
There's only room for one burglar in the raid and regardless of whether he's QK or TG specced, he still has Opportunist traited for the +6% crit chance from CD and Appraising Eye traited for the +2% damage on RW.
Now... You ready for it?
The standard crit multipliers in this game are 1.5 for a crit and 2.0 for a dev crit. This means that if you add an extra +30% crit-x and +15% dev crit-x you end up with 1.8 for a crit and 2.15 for a dev crit. This is very basic stuff, yet I suck at explaining it...
Now: the only thing left before we can put it all into a formular is the question "how much damage does a non-crit hit do?"
Background: when calculating the magnitude of crits/devs (the 1.8/2.15 in our case) the game uses the MAXIMUM value listed on your skill's tooltip. The minimum value (for a burglar at least) is often between 60-65% of the maximum value, although for some classes (wargs at least - and maybe some freep classes as well) there is only one value, and no element of randomness – those skills always hit for the same, which is 100%.
So let's skip past all the boring and irrelevant calculations and simply assume that on average all the non-crit attacks all dps-classes do equal 80% of the MAXIMUM value in the tooltip. Do note that when setting it this low I am effectively improving the Gambler's position in this comparison. But let's keep it realistic and slightly gambler friendly. Sounds alright?
So if a dps class has a crit rating of 25% and gains +6% from the CD debuff from the burg and has +30% crit-x the first part of the formular becomes:
31% * 1.8
Add the dev crit chance and +15% magnitude:
31% * 1.8 + 10% * 2.15
And finally add the remaining non-crit attacks with a 0.8 multiplier and you get:
The value 124.5 is insignificant in itself - what matters is how it compares to the Gambler values that gain +2% crit rating.
So that first bit was how a QK burglar affects the damage output of our already defined dps-class in a raid setting.
Let’s see how a gambler burg compares:
The only difference is the extra +2% crit rating. Add that and we get:
Divide the two and we see how much more damage a dps-class does with a gambler burg instead of a QK burg:
126.5 / 124.5 = 1.016 --> 1.6%
So for “our dps-class” +2% crit rating translates into a +1.6% increase in actual damage output.
Obviously this is assuming that 33% crit chance actually translates directly into a 33% crit rate – always. And as we know this is rarely the case – but still it gives us a figure that we can work with. In shorter encounters the results may be more skewed, but the longer the encounter, the more accurate our number will be (at least for “our dps-class”).
2) The dps discrepancy between the QK and TG traitlines
As we now know how much damage our group dps’ers gain, the next step is to find out how much dps the burglar loses if he traits TG.
I’ve asked for gambler burgs to provide dps parses, as all I’ve ever seen (in recent times, at least) is QK-parses. Since no gamblers have managed to provide any information at all, my comparison will be based on “the numbers”, or rather the damage bonuses that each trait-line provides.
The inherent positional modifier that all burglars have is +15%. Another 15% is available through the legacy on our class-item (all dps-burgs have this), which means a gambler burg’s positional modifier is 1.3
A QK burg gets another 25% from his traits, assuming he can keep up his dev-buff all the time (he can’t, but close enough). So a QK burg’s positional modifier is 1.55
This means that a QK burg does
1.55 / 1.3 = 1.192 --> 19.2%
more damage than a TG burg when in position.
The positional advantage is not the only difference though.
All dps-burgs also get +15% crit-x from the legacy on our class-item so that gives the gambler burg a crit multiplier of 1.65
The QK burg gets +30% from his traitlines, so his crit multiplier is 1.95
Furthermore a QK burg gets +600 crit rating, which means it’s easier to cap in a raid setting, whereas a TG burg might struggle to cap his crit rating. I won’t go into detail with how this works, but just keep that in mind when we look at the final results.
So… assuming both burgs are crit capped, using CD and giving the TG burg his +2% crit rating while using the formula from before; how much does that extra crit multiplier from the QK traits translate into?
This means that a QK burg does
129.15 / 121.55 = 1.0625 --> 6.25%
More damage than a TG burg through his crit multipliers
The QK burg also gets an extra “+5% melee damage” from his stance, but in reality this is physical mastery and is added on top of the bonuses we already have. This means that even though it’s +5% on paper it only really translates into roughly 2.5% actual damage increase, due to diminishing returns for physical mastery.
Add all these advantages together and we find that a QK burg does
1.192 * 1.0625 * 1.025 = 1.298 --> 29.8%
More damage than a TG burg!
I’m a bit uncertain as to whether I should multiply the +6.25% with the +2.5% or just add them together before multiplying with the 19.2% positional modifier – but either way it doesn’t make much of a difference, and the end result is pretty clear:
A QK burg does a lot more damage than a gambler burg!
Do note that this is without taking into consideration the boost a TG burg gets from his gambles, but the added dot on startling twist means it simply becomes another damage skill – and when used it takes time out of a normal damage rotation so in the end the dps increase is marginal, if it even exists. Same thing with the other damaging gambles. The bonus damage from Surprise strike on gambled targets might add a little bit extra dps, but it is off-set by the fact that the QK burg can get a “from-stealth attack” every 15 secs using feint attack, as well as being able to keep a +7.5% melee damage buff active for up to 66% of the time. In fact this is a huge advantage for the QK burg – and neither have we taken into account things such as the -10% threat from the QK-stance or the +5% gamble damage from the gambler-stance. We have also left out the damage boosts from the individual red traits – the trait Ambidextrous provides a solid buff to personal dps, as do some of the others.
Ignoring all those slightly more complicated things and assuming the dps difference is “only” 29.8% (again favouring The Gambler in this comparison) and further assuming that a QK burg does can do 2000 dps, we find that a TG burg can then do
2000 / 1.298 = 1540.8 dps
So final question:
3) Does TG provide more dps in a raid setting than QK?
We’ve found that "our dps-classes" do around 1.6% more damage if there’s a TG burg doing his thing in the raid. The question is: does that outweigh the personal dps-loss a TG burg suffers when not traited QK?
To answer that we first have to make a few more assumptions.
Assumptions:
Our raid consists of 2 guards, 2 cappies, 2 healing minies, 1 lm, 1 burg and 4 dps classes.
Our dps classes do 2000 dps each with a QK burg in the raid, as does the QK burg himself.
The dps classes have crit ratings and multipliers as already described, and therefore they all gain +1.6% damage from the TG burg’s extra crit de-buff.
The guards, cappies and the lm are the equivalent of 2 dps classes in terms of damage output.
This means that the damage done by the group is that of 6 dps classes + the burg. Again highly simplistic, but still it gives us something to work with.
So this means that the group’s damage output with a QK burg is:
2000 dps + 6 * 2000 dps = 14000
And with a TG burg instead:
1540.8 dps + 1.016(6 * 2000 dps) = 13732.8
So in short:
The extra +2% crit chance for everyone in the raid will never be worth the sacrifice in personal dps from traiting TG over QK. Even when favouring TG all the way through in the comparisons QK is still the clear winner. The difference of 267.2 dps is roughly half the damage output of a tanking guardian.
The Gambler trait-line does NOT provide more dps than the Quiet Knife traitline. Not for solo play (ofc if you completely remove all positional damage the difference is smaller, but imho QK is still better in terms of raw dps), not for group play, and not for raid play either.
What the TG trait-line does well is provide more utility and a strong de-buff that can be kept on the target some of the time. Too bad the game doesn’t need either of those.
Final notes:
As I’ve said these “results” are based on a very simplistic comparison between the two trait-lines, and I’m starting to think that the differences between them are greater than the results I’ve found. As such I would love to see a gambler parse on a training dummy: If gamblers are able to parse more than 1500 dps consistently I would love to see it. Unfortunately all the dps parses I’ve seen are from QK burgs and while some TG burgs claim there’s not much of a dps discrepancy, if any at all, between the two lines, we have yet to see any data suggesting that is the case.
VERY important:
All my “results” are based on the assumption that the QK burg does NOT wear the QK armour set from EM! With the buff fully active that set gives an extra +20% dev crit chance (which is a completely insane amount…) and it is by far the biggest dps increase that any armour set in this game can provide! Since this is QK specific it would make sense to assume the QK burg has it and the TG burg doesn’t – meaning that the difference between the two would be dramatic.
A QK burg with the +20% dev crit buff active:
31% * 1.95 + 30% * 2.15 + (100 – 31 – 30) * 0.8 = 156.15
Divided with the value for the normal QK burg (129.15, as shown earlier):
156.15 / 129.15 = 1.209 --> 20.9%
This means a QK burg can increase his dps output by up to 20.9% just by changing his armour!
The dps numbers could then be 2400+ for a QK burg and 1500+ for a TG burg…
I am not really fun of that dps compares, couse I think class is not only DPS, but also many other thingies. Was observing, but for now I need to ask Gilias, how you included Cruel Odds, couse I think you forgot about this. There is also not included higher dmg on gambles, on each strike from gamble dmg on gambled traget you dealing bonus dmg.
Anyway, even if I am "now" (couse I have mood for some trait line and keeping changing it from time to time) mostly gambling, I don't see why to claim that G dealing more dmg than QK. That line is just created for other purpose.
Also its a fact, that Gamble is harder to understand than QK, have more complicity. QK is simple and easy to understand, that's why there is more QK than Gamble. Same reason you have more hunters than lore masters. Becouse of that ppl played QK mostly even didnt tried TG long enough to have good comparrission, but ppl who mostly gamble, was earlier QK players. Do not mistake meaning of my words. I do not saying ppl playing QK are noobs, but I like to think about myself as elite between burgs, so if most of you still will be QK, I don't mind, I still will be elite amoung all burgs ^^
I am not really fun of that dps compares, couse I think class is not only DPS, but also many other thingies. Was observing, but for now I need to ask Gilias, how you included Cruel Odds, couse I think you forgot about this. There is also not included higher dmg on gambles, on each strike from gamble dmg on gambled traget you dealing bonus dmg.
Uhm... Did you read the first section in my post labelled 1) ? Forgive me for not stating it explicitly that the +2% crit chance came from Cruel Odds, but I thought that much was obvious. My results suggest that +2% crit rating increases group dps by 1.6%, which means that in no way does this make up for the loss in dps a TG burg suffers when not traiting QK.
I fully agree that there's more to comparing the two trait lines than just the raw dps numbers, but since I was asked to account for "the numbers" I have.
Originally Posted by Cliford
There is also not included higher dmg on gambles, on each strike from gamble dmg on gambled traget you dealing bonus dmg.
You mean the bonus damage for surprise strike? The way you express it implies that there's a bonus on EVERY attack when traited gambler - which is not how I thought it worked? Or do you mean the +5% gamble damage from the stance?
Originally Posted by Gilias
Do note that this is without taking into consideration the boost a TG burg gets from his gambles, but the added dot on startling twist means it simply becomes another damage skill – and when used it takes time out of a normal damage rotation so in the end the dps increase is marginal, if it even exists. Same thing with the other damaging gambles. The bonus damage from Surprise strike on gambled targets might add a little bit extra dps, but it is off-set by the fact that the QK burg can get a “from-stealth attack” every 15 secs using feint attack, as well as being able to keep a +7.5% melee damage buff active for up to 66% of the time. In fact this is a huge advantage for the QK burg – and neither have we taken into account things such as the -10% threat from the QK-stance or the +5% gamble damage from the gambler-stance. We have also left out the damage boosts from the individual red traits – the trait Ambidextrous provides a solid buff to personal dps, as do some of the others.
As I clearly stated here there are a lot of factors that are difficult to quantify - but I have taken the two things you mention into consideration already. The thing I left out though - it was late so I forgot - was the +10% damage on Subtle Stab. However - I still don't believe this changes things dramatically; I still think there's roughly a 30% difference in damage output in favour of QK.
Originally Posted by Cliford
Also its a fact, that Gamble is harder to understand than QK, have more complicity. QK is simple and easy to understand, that's why there is more QK than Gamble.
As I see it the reason there's more QK burgs than TG's around is not because QK is easier, but simply because QK is better. At least if we're talking raid settings - EM might be a different story, depending on which playstyle you favour.
Originally Posted by Cliford
Becouse of that ppl played QK mostly even didnt tried TG long enough to have good comparrission, but ppl who mostly gamble, was earlier QK players.
Sorry but this doesn't make much sense to me. Are you saying that most QK burgs have no idea what TG is about and all TG burgs know all there is to know about QK? Simply asking cause I'm not sure what you mean here...
Originally Posted by Cliford
Do not mistake meaning of my words. I do not saying ppl playing QK are noobs, but I like to think about myself as elite between burgs, so if most of you still will be QK, I don't mind, I still will be elite amoung all burgs ^^
Doh! Too late for not mistaking your meaning I'm afraid
But see this is the point: When you consider yourself "as elite among all burgs" purely because you trait TG, you are also indirectly saying that TG is better than QK, and therefore all QK burgs are, if not noobs then at least inferior. Even though I'm sure you're meaning well, this is still the message you communicate (to me at least...). If you had chosen the word "unique" or "different" instead of "elite" I would have absolutely no problem with your statement.
And this is my key point (to all TG burgs in general):
By all means trait the way you want; but if you trait TG then don't fool yourself by saying you contribute as much dps to a group/raid as a QK burg, because you simply don't.
You can then argue that the debuff from CR makes up for the loss in dps - which might be a valid point to make in some cases - but don't claim to out-dps a QK burg because that just makes you look silly.
Uhm... Did you read the first section in my post labelled 1) ? Forgive me for not stating it explicitly that the +2% crit chance came from Cruel Odds, but I thought that much was obvious. My results suggest that +2% crit rating increases group dps by 1.6%, which means that in no way does this make up for the loss in dps a TG burg suffers when not traiting QK.
I fully agree that there's more to comparing the two trait lines than just the raw dps numbers, but since I was asked to account for "the numbers" I have.
Well, it's perma 2% for all melee classes, so I wasn't thinking I can just miss that.
Originally Posted by Gilias
You mean the bonus damage for surprise strike? They way you express it implies that there's a bonus on EVERY attack when traited gambler - which is not how I thought it worked?
It's not only SS, it's also 5% more for all "gamble dmg", so it's CR, and most importent Lucky Strike (we talking about dot with 15 sec cd).
Originally Posted by Gilias
Doh! Too late for not mistaking your meaning I'm afraid
But see this is the point: When you consider yourself "as elite among all burgs" purely because you trait TG, you are also indirectly saying that TG is better than QK, and therefore all QK burgs are, if not noobs then at least inferior. Even though I'm sure you're meaning well, this is still the message you communicate (to me at least...). If you had chosen the word "unique" or "different" instead of "elite" I would have absolutely no problem with your statement.
That was joke. JOKE. To loose a little of that climax of QK vs TG war. I even add that "^^" at end. Next time will stop myself from joking.
Originally Posted by Gilias
By all means trait the way you want; but if you trait TG then don't fool yourself by saying you contribute as much dps to a group/raid as a QK burg, because you simply don't.
You can then argue that the debuff from CR makes up for the loss in dps - which might be a valid point to make in some cases - but don't claim to out-dps a QK burg because that just makes you look silly.
Don't fool yourself you can't tell wich trait line is stronger, it's absolutly uncountable. Don't claim QK out-dps TG, or TG out-dps QK, becouse that just makes you look silly. You don't have any proves, as I don't have, and propably even devs don't know. There is to many diffrent circumstances. Gamble for example have more survivality, taht means, minnie do not need to heal you as much as you are in QK. That means he/she can play more anthems that pump your dmg output. Ridicules example, but every time you can find something, it's diffrent every time and you will never come to conclusion that will answear all questions.
Don't claim QK out-dps TG, or TG out-dps QK, becouse that just makes you look silly. You don't have any proves, as I don't have, and propably even devs don't know. There is to many diffrent circumstances. Gamble for example have more survivality, taht means, minnie do not need to heal you as much as you are in QK. That means he/she can play more anthems that pump your dmg output. Ridicules example, but every time you can find something, it's diffrent every time and you will never come to conclusion that will answear all questions.
Still Gilias brought some nice numbers and facts. We can say that in some rare occasions TG can actually do better DPS than QK. Yeah even MM can in some occasions do better dps than QK - like when the mob is away of you the MM can spam ranged tricks and quite a snag more often. But that is ridiculous.
I am only player who uses mischief on my world,their are some who use gambler but mischief is way under utilized, I can take 5+mobs easily and take them on 1 at a time because of great CC
I am only player who uses mischief on my world,their are some who use gambler but mischief is way under utilized, I can take 5+mobs easily and take them on 1 at a time because of great CC
I can only say: DAMN YEA! That's the voice I wanted to hear. But after a second you will hear, michief is useless, you have no damage mate. Use QK. It's the only way pro burg is playing
I can only say: DAMN YEA! That's the voice I wanted to hear. But after a second you will hear, michief is useless, you have no damage mate. Use QK. It's the only way pro burg is playing
I was playing in Yellow traits for some time too. Yeah MM can have some nice survivability - You can confound 4 mobs, root 1 and riddle 1 so you can solo some nice number of mobs at once. But what is sad is, that QK can do the same, just press Touch and Go and kill it all within 30 secs.
DPS builds are overpowered in general since RoI, burg especially.
I will be unique, even if it means traiting yellow and requiring more focus and skill, I like a challenge...And trust me...I will revolutionize the way creeps see a freep burglar because well.....I wont be hiding in stealth, I will be charging in
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Originally Posted by Gilias
). By all means do question this if you have any valid points to make.
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Gifford brg // Clodvig mns // Clodas wrdClodburz dflWeRockYes, english is not my native language.
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