3. QK is easy to understand - Gambler is VERY confusing when you're first learning it. I've never found anyone in game that has just picked it up on their own. They have to be taught by another burg, or read guides, or both. It's too much hassle for most players to go through.
Well-said, and exactly the point I tried to make in my first post in this thread.
For what it's worth, I seem to be seeing more TG burglars on Elendilmir lately. (Or maybe I'm just paying more attention. I'm beginning to be a bit compulsive about inspecting other burglars.) I picked up a burglar from GLFF to fill-in an open spot in a kin Orthanc run over the weekend. It was a rather unorthodox group and the extra CC came in handy. We won, we looted. 'Twas a good night.
The idea that burgs don't run gambler because 'it's a bit hard' seems misguided. Most burgs don't run mischief full time either, yet I've yet to see those who do (Ferris? Ferris....) try to paint themselves as somehow more capable because they do.
Different traits and stances for different roles. Given the nature of the endgame currently, the benefits of higher dps and high burst dps should be very obvious. If CC needs covering or your tank is made of china, then sure switching role is a good thing to benefit the raid as a whole. If you've got the time to run two optimised builds for QK and Gambler, more power to your elbow. But if you try to pretend that Gambler is the best option in every circumstance, QK burgs will, and rightly so, laugh at you a lot. It's not because they're less skillful or less intelligent. It's just that they can do math.
Oh, another reference to math. Can we please see the data?
Of course you can. There's some plugins available which will do this for you. Perhaps try that part of the forum if you need further advice on how to use them?
Of course you can. There's some plugins available which will do this for you. Perhaps try that part of the forum if you need further advice on how to use them?
So, yet again there is no data to support "it's just that they can do math". Not only is there no data, the best reply that could be mustered is a feeble attempt at using a "red herring" to distract from the actual question.
So, yet again there is no data to support "it's just that they can do math". Not only is there no data, the best reply that could be mustered is a feeble attempt at using a "red herring" to distract from the actual question.
It was more a suggestion that being a smart Gambler, you could, well, do your own testing and triumphantly announce that gambler is the dps stance of choice for raiding. You're the one kicking against the grain here. Personally, given raid conditions (ie I ain't tanking), I think it should be fairly self-evident what the answer is. (Just for the record, I ran gambler full time til U6. Gambler offers many things. It's a very nice support and soloing way to play. What it ain't, is comparable to the dps trait line in a raid setting. Last time I had roughly equivalent gear, optimised for both stances, there was a 30% difference in my dps in a raid setting - that was 2 months ago).
I have a tools and weapon both for DPSing as TG and QK (you can see them here - http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...ry-Item-Thread.) so I can compare the dps a bit.
Though my TG dps is highly based on bleeds - and my QK dps not at all. I have bleeds legacies on TG weapon. Therefore when killing low morale mobs - QK does much better results. When killing things with more morale (bosses at instances or mobs at LG) I have 1100-1700 DPS with QK and with TG its 900-1500 Dps so in average 200 less. But I have 1st ager for QK and my 2nd ager for TG has only 110 DPS and relics for survivabiliy and some non-dps legacies. So with some changes IMO the TG could actually do nearly-high DPS as QK in these long fights.
But so far I was only DPSing as TG in LG or 3-man and 6-man instances and have no experience how does it go in ToO.
Honestly as long as you are in a good group of skilled players it doesn't really matter what you trait for in everything except ToO T2
Draigoch T2, ToO T1 are all so easy you can do whatever you want if it makes you that much happier. Will it go faster with a QK build? Absolutely, but its not required. I personally can't run gambler anymore because my dps is just so much lower and the debuffs gambler gives don't make a difference with the raids I'm in.
It was more a suggestion that being a smart Gambler, you could, well, do your own testing and triumphantly announce that gambler is the dps stance of choice for raiding. You're the one kicking against the grain here.
Hm, still no data. And now, instead of a red herring we get an ad hominem, which is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person supporting it. Ad hominem reasoning is an informal fallacy and an irrelevance.
Originally Posted by Atheling
Personally, given raid conditions (ie I ain't tanking), I think it should be fairly self-evident what the answer is.
Wishful thinking is the formation of beliefs and making decisions according to what might be pleasing to imagine instead of by appealing to evidence. In addition to being a cognitive bias and a poor way of making decisions, wishful thinking is commonly held to be a specific logical fallacy in an argument when it is assumed that because we wish something to be true or false that it is actually true or false.
Originally Posted by Atheling
Last time I had roughly equivalent gear, optimised for both stances, there was a 30% difference in my dps in a raid setting - that was 2 months ago).
Someone's not been paying attention. Me, from a previous post: "How have you (or anyone else for that matter) been able to reconcile the increase in DPS done by all of the toons in a raid due to TG debuffs as compared to the individual DPS gap between an individual TG and QK burglar? In other words, how have you been able to measure the force multiplier provided by the debuffs of TG against the individual contribution of QK?".
I personally can't run gambler anymore because my dps is just so much lower and the debuffs gambler gives don't make a difference with the raids I'm in.
So, how did you determine that the debuffs don't make a difference?
Hm, still no data. And now, instead of a red herring we get an ad hominem, which is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person supporting it. Ad hominem reasoning is an informal fallacy and an irrelevance.
Wishful thinking is the formation of beliefs and making decisions according to what might be pleasing to imagine instead of by appealing to evidence. In addition to being a cognitive bias and a poor way of making decisions, wishful thinking is commonly held to be a specific logical fallacy in an argument when it is assumed that because we wish something to be true or false that it is actually true or false.
Someone's not been paying attention. Me, from a previous post: "How have you (or anyone else for that matter) been able to reconcile the increase in DPS done by all of the toons in a raid due to TG debuffs as compared to the individual DPS gap between an individual TG and QK burglar? In other words, how have you been able to measure the force multiplier provided by the debuffs of TG against the individual contribution of QK?".
Alternatively, you could have read the post you initially quoted of mine rather than quoting wiki. That's where paying attention kicks in. Smart gambler burgs read before quoting.
Alternatively, you could have read the post you initially quoted of mine rather than quoting wiki. That's where paying attention kicks in. Smart gambler burgs read before quoting.
At this point you're just trolling since you apparently have nothing to contribute. To the ignore list with you...
And not one shred of data from yourself yet to back up your own claims. But who's counting? *shrug*
Originally Posted by Roberticus
I think the reason that you don't see many TG burglars is that many (perhaps most?) burglar players don't understand how to play them. I write this because of the several times other burglars (always QK...) have asked me to explain gambles to them.
Well, I've played for a long time, and I think I helped another burg with a gamble issue once. I'm not sure why the natural assumption is that all burglars aren't resourceful enough to read tool-tips and guides. You don't actually need to be a genius to understand the gambler line. Did you consider the possible alternative that other burglars DO understand TG, yet choose to run certain content in MM or QK because they may have, correctly, analyzed the needs of the task at hand and the raid group make-up that they are in?
Originally Posted by Roberticus
Having said that, one raid where QK is preferable over TG is Draigoch. TG simply cannot match QK for its capability to start Fellowship Maneuvers. (I don't count marbles or Exposed Throat in a Gambler's repertoire because neither is very reliable in my experience)
Whoah.... Marbles are almost 100% reliable. The issue is with cool-down. I've talked to at least a half dozen other burgs about burging Draigoch, and Exposed Throat is a vital tool for solo burging it unless you're a fan of it taking half the day. Yeah, 20% is not a high number. There are, however, 6 drops where it can be tried twice. In any given Draigoch run, 2-3 FMs, will be, on average from ET (saving cooldowns on trip and EO) if the burg is playing properly.
Originally Posted by Roberticus
Someone's not been paying attention. Me, from a previous post: "How have you (or anyone else for that matter) been able to reconcile the increase in DPS done by all of the toons in a raid due to TG debuffs as compared to the individual DPS gap between an individual TG and QK burglar? In other words, how have you been able to measure the force multiplier provided by the debuffs of TG against the individual contribution of QK?".
A couple things. What circumstances are you envisioning or experiencing that debuffing, or mezzing, or bleeding a certain mob or mobs increases party DPS over the individual contribution increase of a QK burg? And having asked that, I'm not sure you understand the full capabilities of the damage increasing potential of QK if you think it is only individual. In certain raid groups, and absolutely the people I group with, hunters, champs, and indeed burgs can only go all out on DPS if certain threat management things are happening. And one of those things is traited provoke out of stealth. Something that can only be hit routinely and often by a QK traited burg with the right weapon legacy. Others' mileage may vary, but that strategy is pretty typical of experienced raiding burgs that I know.
But not everything is a DPS race and there are, of course, appropriate times and places for the Gambler line. I'm another that used to run it often.
Tommac-Mini, Shurmann-Cap, Theodolan-Guard, Thromdir-Hnt - Dancing in the Dark
And not one shred of data from yourself yet to back up your own claims. But who's counting? *shrug*
That's because I've not made any claims. In fact, I already wrote that I don't know what the numbers are and that I'm not even sure if anyone can come up with them.
See, the issue I have is that the common argument of QK over TG is some reference to "the numbers" or some form of math (example snide comment: "it's just that they can do math"). I ask for someone, anyone, to share how they came up with their numbers so that Burglars everywhere can give it some peer review. So far, all I've seen by way of replies in this thread have been red herrings and wishful thinking on the part of some. This thread has received almost 3,000 views to date and still nothing to show for it in terms of anything remotely usable as far as data.
Originally Posted by Irenmund
Whoah.... Marbles are almost 100% reliable.
Giddyup.... My experience has been otherwise. Besides which, that was part of an opinion in favor of QK. The reliability of marbles is irrelevant to the overall discussion.
Originally Posted by Irenmund
I've talked to at least a half dozen other burgs about burging Draigoch, and Exposed Throat is a vital tool for solo burging it unless you're a fan of it taking half the day.
I already agree that QK is preferable to TG in Draigoch. Specific tactics for a specific scenario in a specific raid are irrelevant.
Originally Posted by Irenmund
What circumstances are you envisioning or experiencing that debuffing, or mezzing, or bleeding a certain mob or mobs increases party DPS over the individual contribution increase of a QK burg?
Please go back to the start of the thread and re-read.
Originally Posted by Irenmund
...I'm not sure you understand the full capabilities of the damage increasing potential of QK if you think it is only individual.
What is specific to QK that provides groupwide benefits to DPS? What am I not understanding?
Originally Posted by Irenmund
In certain raid groups, and absolutely the people I group with, hunters, champs, and indeed burgs can only go all out on DPS if certain threat management things are happening. And one of those things is traited provoke out of stealth. Something that can only be hit routinely and often by a QK traited burg with the right weapon legacy.
A logical fallacy. Threat management contributes nothing to DPS. And, if everyone does their part, threat management should not be an issue, whether a Burglar is present or not.
When being asked to provide proof of something, telling the person who asked for proof to "Go get it yourself" is not acceptable. It, in fact, shows that you do not have proof, and so are making your claim without any substance.
If you make a claim, it is your responsibility to provide proof. This is called "Burden of Proof."
In short, Atheling, it is your responsibility to provide proof for your claim. Otherwise, you can forfeit your argument.
Beauty is not a feminine trait. Strength is not a masculine trait.
What is specific to QK that provides groupwide benefits to DPS? What am I not understanding?
A logical fallacy. Threat management contributes nothing to DPS. And, if everyone does their part, threat management should not be an issue, whether a Burglar is present or not.
????? Threat management has a ton to do with what the party as a whole, is doing, DPS-wise. What, you're really not getting, I guess, is that traited Provoke out of stealth can be a very powerful part of that threat management. In many cases, without one or more burgs doing that, hunters, champs, Burgs (particularly QK ones), dps RKs, etc... have to "lay-up" on the DPS or will pull it from the tank. Hence, it helps (or can) group DPS. Nothing about the Gambler line helps the threat mechanic between DPS/Tank. If the hunters you run with can go all out and not pull it off your tank. Great. Not my experience. Perhaps that I play a Guard and a Hunter as well I have a bit of a broader first-hand perspective on it.
Tommac-Mini, Shurmann-Cap, Theodolan-Guard, Thromdir-Hnt - Dancing in the Dark
I may be completely wrong, but weren't there some discussion while ago where was prowed that TG can actually achieve higher DPS than QK if played properly?
Unless the game has changed signifigantly since I last really played(2 months) I don't see how that's possible. Previously TG provided higher on elite mobs with really high morale, and lost in every other instance? In any group encounter QK positional is going to win out, solo against low morale mobs QK is going to win out. Of course, I haven't seen any 'maths' recently since the last update; so maybe Turbine made a huge change?
When being asked to provide proof of something, telling the person who asked for proof to "Go get it yourself" is not acceptable. It, in fact, shows that you do not have proof, and so are making your claim without any substance.
True in a scientific discussion, or an actual debate. When it comes to game mechanics/mathing in MMO's in general the accepted thing is 'If you are going against the grain, provide proof to change the standard'.
True in a scientific discussion, or an actual debate. When it comes to game mechanics/mathing in MMO's in general the accepted thing is 'If you are going against the grain, provide proof to change the standard'.
I'm sorry to have to say it but, that's got to be the dumbest thing to come out of this thread so far.
True in a scientific discussion, or an actual debate. When it comes to game mechanics/mathing in MMO's in general the accepted thing is 'If you are going against the grain, provide proof to change the standard'.
That's "argumentum ad populum". A logical fallacy and thus should not be applicable to any situation ever.
There are notions that become popular that are not factually correct.
Ergo, the claim in this thread is that QK provides more DPS than Gambler. If it's the grain, then there should be proof of it, which would be easy to provide. Simply link to a DPS breakdown from a previous thread that proved this.
As I have yet to see any proof of this, I can only conclude that it's a popular fad that everyone has taken for granted and hasn't actually proof for.
Of course, proof can change my mind.
Until proof has provided, however, the counter-claims do not have burden of proof. Not yet. You can't disprove what hasn't been proven in the first place.
Beauty is not a feminine trait. Strength is not a masculine trait.
????? Threat management has a ton to do with what the party as a whole, is doing, DPS-wise.
Enough with the threat management already! I know what the Provoke skill does; I know how the aggro table works. Threat management has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. This discussion (my interest in it, anyway) is about trying to get to the bottom of the claims of proof (so far, lack of proof) of the numbers between QK and TG burglars. If you have problems holding aggro without a burglar traited and using LI legacies for Provoke out of stealth, please take it to the Guardian forum for help.
If you have problems holding aggro without a burglar traited and using LI legacies for Provoke out of stealth, please take it to the Guardian forum for help.
Heh. If you don't know how or when DPS classes dish out damage on something being tanked and what their decision processes are, maybe it's you that needs to spend some time on other sub-forums.
Why don't you start with the hunter forum. The chief complaint that hunters have is that they feel that they CAN'T do their primary class role and deal max damage, since they don't have a great way of dealing with pulling aggro. I don't necessarily agree, but any decently geared hunter can pull off of a guard, UNLESS they are holding back at the start of, and at certain points during, a fight. That's a fact. And that how and when is adjusted by other factors, including provoke out of stealth. If you don't know that, you haven't been playing close attention, asking questions, or listening to what other players/classes have to say. I highly recommend that you start.
Ok, I have a sarcastic streak.
Look, part, but not all of it does indeed come down to the preference thing. This discussion went downhill I think with the condescending attitude of some burgs that prefer TG; that those who trait situationally were button-mashing noobs. Many experienced burgs I know were evangelical about TG stance per-ROI. Most, including myself post ROI, are not. Those that seem to be evangelically pro TG now, don't appear that experienced with the harder content when they are explaining why....
Last edited by Irenmund; Jul 04 2012 at 09:47 PM.
Tommac-Mini, Shurmann-Cap, Theodolan-Guard, Thromdir-Hnt - Dancing in the Dark
Ironically, while I have noticed a condescending attitude on the side that supports TG, I have also noticed a LOT of condescension coming from the QK side of the discussion.
So, forgive me, I'm not exactly sympathetic. Especially when it seems to be the QKs saying that TG is worthless, not the other way around.
Beauty is not a feminine trait. Strength is not a masculine trait.
When being asked to provide proof of something, telling the person who asked for proof to "Go get it yourself" is not acceptable. It, in fact, shows that you do not have proof, and so are making your claim without any substance.
If you make a claim, it is your responsibility to provide proof. This is called "Burden of Proof."
In short, Atheling, it is your responsibility to provide proof for your claim. Otherwise, you can forfeit your argument.
It's perfectly acceptable to tell someone to try something for themselves and to see whether or not they too find "the benefits of higher dps and high burst dps" are there with QK over TG in the current endgame. The fact that Roberticus hadn't even bothered to read the post he was cherrypicking sentences from was obvious from the start. Is he really arguing that TG provides greater burst dps? That's the argument he was trying to make (intentionally or not) by selecting individual sentences from a post which said TG does have a role to play but in most endgame fights currently the value of the high dps and high burst dps is clear. Does one really need indepth analysis to demonstrate that QK has higher burst dps than TG, or can we just accept the blazingly obvious fact that it does?
The other issue with testing, which is why the onus is on Roberticus to demonstrate this, is that his claims are that TG helps the entire raid's dps. That's a big claim to make currently, it's a long one to test, and so I think really that it's for him (or anyone who believes it) to make that case for themselves. Personally, I think the RoI changes have somewhat reduced the value of that argument and from playing a caster toon in dps I've got to say that the absence or presence of a TG burg in no way seems to influence my dps. Maybe that's just a gearing question, and other raids/raid compositions may find it beneficial.
What is funny are the wiki quotes on these forums without any understanding of what they really mean - it's like there's some sophomore debating class broken out in lotro. The burden of proof rests with those making new claims to overturn existing perceived wisdom. My existing perceived wisdom, within my own specific raiding group, is that the dps of QK provides greater benefits than any appeals to fairies about overall increased dps from TG. Disprove it. Simples.
He made a counter-claim to a claim. He does not have to provide proof until you provide proof.
You are supporting the claim that QK has higher DPS. It is either on you or others who support that QK has higher DPS than Gambler. Then it is on him to prove that Gambler raises the party's DPS more than the QK's DPS.
Also...
"Prevailing Wisdom" is meaningless without proof. After all, prevailing wisdom once thought that kids who were shaking violently were demon possessed and needed to have an exorcism.
If the prevailing wisdom is correct, then there is already proof and you simply need to cite it. If it is not correct, then you have no proof and are using a logical fallacy, which is arguing that something is popular, and therefore must be true.
Cite your sources, or redact your claim. It is not a difficult thing to do if you are correct.
Beauty is not a feminine trait. Strength is not a masculine trait.
That being said, you're far from the only supporter of QK, so would another like to provide the DPS numbers to prove this? Because I'm sure they exist.
Beauty is not a feminine trait. Strength is not a masculine trait.
That being said, you're far from the only supporter of QK, so would another like to provide the DPS numbers to prove this? Because I'm sure they exist.
Thanks for that. Seems like there's some debate over the utility of using the training dummies for DPS parses, though. As pointed out by several posters in that thread, the dummy parses still only account for individual DPS and obviously aren't indicative of what they may look like in a raid setting. They also aren't good for measuring the contribution of DoT's, which would be crucial for an accurate comparison with TG.
You would basically have to do a before and after parse of the same boss. Which means running an instance twice.
Actually, unfortunately there's a lot more to it than that.
This thread started with a newer, leveling burg, asking why many of the burgs that he sees on his server were traited QK and not Gambler, and therefore, "where are the gamblers".
To me, that original premise made an initial irrational assumption, that all Burglars trait a certain way, always. Can't speak for others, but my experience, the content, the group, and what I'll be needed to do, advice of others I respect and trust, will dictate how I trait. That might be 5 down QK, sure. Also could be TG (less now) or MM, or rainbow. I don't call myself a "QK" burg. I play a burglar.
But to test utility in group? Group on what? Specific boss fight with a specific burglar with a specific raid group multiple times? Is that burg as good at running TG as QK or MM? How were the random elements removed (hint, you'd need a lot more than once each way). And who are these 11 other people willing to play around for hours to "prove" or "disprove" elements already generally accepted based on knowledge and experience? Heck, I wouldn't be willing to do it, even if it "proved it" in this discussion. Better things to do and such and no particular emotional need to be agreed with...
Tommac-Mini, Shurmann-Cap, Theodolan-Guard, Thromdir-Hnt - Dancing in the Dark
You are supporting the claim that QK has higher DPS. It is either on you or others who support that QK has higher DPS than Gambler. Then it is on him to prove that Gambler raises the party's DPS more than the QK's DPS.
Let me clarify this just a bit. I'm not debating QK vs. TG in terms of individual DPS. Neither am I favoring one over the other. What I'd like to know is how the people who've flatly declared that QK is superior to TG in a raid setting based upon "the numbers" or "the math" have arrived at that conclusion. I'm asking because I don't think it can be done with any acceptable degree of accuracy.
Originally Posted by Atheling
The fact that Roberticus hadn't even bothered to read the post he was cherrypicking sentences from was obvious from the start.
How many red herrings does this make? I've lost count. What you call cherry picking I call editing for brevity. Which is to say, cutting out the nonsense that has nothing to do with the matter at hand to focus on the parts that merit discussion. I have read every post in this thread and I re-read every post before I reply to it.
But to test utility in group? Group on what? Specific boss fight with a specific burglar with a specific raid group multiple times? Is that burg as good at running TG as QK or MM? How were the random elements removed (hint, you'd need a lot more than once each way). And who are these 11 other people willing to play around for hours to "prove" or "disprove" elements already generally accepted based on knowledge and experience? Heck, I wouldn't be willing to do it, even if it "proved it" in this discussion. Better things to do and such and no particular emotional need to be agreed with...
Well said! I'm not sure that anyone has ever done something like this simply because there is so much work involved in setting up a control and accounting for enough variables to make it meaningful.
Originally Posted by Irenmund
...elements already generally accepted based on knowledge and experience...
But here's where we must part ways. "Generally accepted" based unfortunately upon nothing more so far than anecdotal "evidence" and popular opinion, with a heaping helping of bias confirmation thrown in on the part of some.
But here's where we must part ways. "Generally accepted" based unfortunately upon nothing more so far than anecdotal "evidence" and popular opinion, with a heaping helping of bias confirmation thrown in on the part of some.
The OP asked for opinions, and he or she got some. You haven't supplied anything other than your own. And do you not consider the possibility that you might have a bit of your own confirmation-bias at play? Or are you somehow immune from it? I have played many hours in all stances. I don't think I trait a certain way for certain fights because I have some preference for one way over another.
Tommac-Mini, Shurmann-Cap, Theodolan-Guard, Thromdir-Hnt - Dancing in the Dark
So, how did you determine that the debuffs don't make a difference?
Because it doesn't matter if I use debuffs or not, we don't die or wipe. DPS is more desired by the raid because everyone just wants to go faster, we don't worry about wiping. When you want to get done with Draigoch and 4 wings of ToO in a night everyone going all out dps is just better and makes it more interesting than carefully making sure everything is properly debuffed.
Because it doesn't matter if I use debuffs or not, we don't die or wipe. DPS is more desired by the raid because everyone just wants to go faster, we don't worry about wiping. When you want to get done with Draigoch and 4 wings of ToO in a night everyone going all out dps is just better and makes it more interesting than carefully making sure everything is properly debuffed.
Not very scientific and certainly not supportive of the idea that debuffs don't make a difference. The bit about not dying or wiping reminds me of a statement from 8skyfaller earlier in this thread: "My raiding experience with TG and QK builds have been the same: When the boss dies, we loot. When we wipe, it's someone else's fault."
Thanks to everyone for their input but, after 70+ posts and ~3,500 views, it's apparent that I'm not going to get the information I'd like from here. Good luck to all and happy burgling (regardless of how you trait)! I'm out.
I'm a gambler. Is qk more dps than tg, depends on the time measured and how. People love to see big numbers.
#1 have fun
#2 find the play style you have fun with.
having x build for x fight is not right; unless bioware is going to let us dual spec.
Or say I switch to mischief mode to riddle more or get qk stance changed to trip out of stealth etc.
Bottomline , have fun and don't let the elitists tell you to have fun, your money, your fun!
That's "argumentum ad populum". A logical fallacy and thus should not be applicable to any situation ever.
There are notions that become popular that are not factually correct.
Ergo, the claim in this thread is that QK provides more DPS than Gambler. If it's the grain, then there should be proof of it, which would be easy to provide. Simply link to a DPS breakdown from a previous thread that proved this.
As I have yet to see any proof of this, I can only conclude that it's a popular fad that everyone has taken for granted and hasn't actually proof for.
Of course, proof can change my mind.
Until proof has provided, however, the counter-claims do not have burden of proof. Not yet. You can't disprove what hasn't been proven in the first place.
Care to provide said math either way? No, probably not. Which is why /most/ people go based off the common perception. If you don't like the way the perception currently is WE ALL welcome you to attempt to change it. Until then just deal with the fact that the general population is always going to say QK > TG.
Wether it's 'debate correct' is irrelevant if you won't take the time yourself to test it, nor will anyone else. If no one wants to 'test' we are going to have to just rely on the general consensus of perception of damage by eyeballing.
I frankly don't care /which/ actually provides better DEEEEEEEEEEEPS as I've rolled both over the years. I've always had bags/weps for both and will still continue to roll both. I prefer to use TG when I solo, just because it's 'funner' although it doesn't feel more effective. Where as when I group I tend to QK - because I feel more effective that way. I get content done solo, my groups get content done, until that stops happening I'm happy with just 'eyeball perception' of which is better. I'll gladly go the route of TG >QK for x, if I ever see a reason(eyeball assumptions, or actual math/explanation) but I've never had even remotely seen any indication of that.
Last edited by Starrywisdom; Jul 08 2012 at 11:02 AM.
The burden of proof rests with those making new claims to overturn existing perceived wisdom.
This is not correct.
Originally Posted by Starrywisdom
Care to provide said math either way? No, probably not. Which is why /most/ people go based off the common perception. If you don't like the way the perception currently is WE ALL welcome you to attempt to change it. Until then just deal with the fact that the general population is always going to say QK > TG.
Just thought I'd note, the reason for this is because it is really simple to get DPS numbers. In my experience, most MMO's that allow trait lines/speccing will see the mainstream favoring DPS (if it is a partial DPS class). This is because there is little left to guessing and it is generally super easy to parse numbers and see the ridiculous DPS you put out. Anything other than DPS gets tricky, because you are talking about a whole lot of variables. For example, as was mentioned, for some raids threat management may be a useful tool that allows the raid to "let loose" a little more where it otherwise might not have been able to. In other raids, the tank is perfectly fine letting everybody have at it with little issue. This is complicated by other classes having different ways of handling threat (such as Wardens threat transfer). Outside of DPS the benefits are still there, but they are more intangible and difficult to measure.
And ultimately, if we're going to make the argument DPS is king and nothing else really matters all that much (which some folks seem to be saying), there is a decent argument for just not rolling a burg at all. We have great burst DPS, but if your goal is to make the whole raid kill faster with DPS, you'd be better off rolling a main DPS class such as a RK, hunter, or champ (to different degrees, some arguable. We have good DPS, but I don't think anyone is really suggesting it's the best in the game, sustained. We roll Burglar because we have fun with it and it has it's own benefits and versatility aside from pure DPS. It's exactly the same when talking about two different trait lines. Each has it's own benefits and is going to be useful in most cases. The argumentation over this is really not going to be terribly noticeable in most groups, providing each person plays his respective traitline well. Mountains of molehills.
TL;DR, play what you want and have fun. Contrary to what some have said, you won't have any problem finding groups either way. If Wardens could still find groups during the dark days of post RoI, you'll be alright.
And ultimately, if we're going to make the argument DPS is king and nothing else really matters all that much (which some folks seem to be saying), there is a decent argument for just not rolling a burg at all. We have great burst DPS, but if your goal is to make the whole raid kill faster with DPS, you'd be better off rolling a main DPS class such as a RK, hunter, or champ (to different degrees, some arguable. We have good DPS, but I don't think anyone is really suggesting it's the best in the game, sustained.
If your goal is to make the whole raid kill faster with dps you want burgs, not hunters, champs nor rks.
Burg sustained dps with the pvp set is at least on pair with hunters and champs, QK ofc.
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Originally Posted by Frieja
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*shrug*
Tommac-Mini, Shurmann-Cap, Theodolan-Guard, Thromdir-Hnt - Dancing in the Dark
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