Thread: Gamblers, where are you?

Hello!

I'm leveling a burg and I've been thinking about traiting TG for end game. In last few days I tried to find a Gambler on my server, no luck so far. All burgs seems to trait QK. And I wonder why?

Is it beacouse QK is just easier and in same time it gives BIG NUMBERS.
Or maybe there is no point in having a gambler over QK in raids/instances/skirmishes/whatever?

I'm soon at level cap and I would prefer to avoid situation where after spending time and money on my LIs I would hear "gambler? nope, no room for you good sir".

gambler is the best for groups, QK is for solo and Mischief is solo/group, i prefer gambler but i kinda like QK-s dam at lvl 75. its ur own decision what do you like.

Originally Posted by Marlev

Hello!
I'm leveling a burg and I've been thinking about traiting TG for end game. In last few days I tried to find a Gambler on my server, no luck so far. All burgs seems to trait QK. And I wonder why?

The Gambler specialization doesn't quite lend itself well to the common circumstance of 'kill it as fast as possible and loot,' particularly when, currently, (outside raids) mobs die so fast. Consider the surely common scenario of taking a third of a normal mob's health just on the opening sneak surprise strike. And by the time you've landed a trick, followed it up with a twist or lucky strike, and accounting for all the auto-attacks in between, your victim is probably dead before your gamble gets a chance to tick once.

It's a fun specialization, especially when you like to chain pull mobs for some extemporaneous rock and rolling, but by and large, I think it's an underutilized specialization not because QK is better, but because it's wasted on the game's content.

I'm soon at level cap and I would prefer to avoid situation where after spending time and money on my LIs I would hear "gambler? nope, no room for you good sir".

If avoiding unpleasantness due to ignorant or myopic opinions about burg spec effectiveness is important to you, then go QK.

My raiding experience with TG and QK builds have been the same: When the boss dies, we loot. When we wipe, it's someone else's fault.

By the way, you can build out a legendary class item with legacies that are suitable for either specializations. The +gambling chance legacy is the only TG essential for burg tools anyway, and even that legacy has synergy with QK (provoke from stealth).

I understand that QK is better for killing random landscape mobs. I'm just worried that Gambler isnt really needed in raids and raid leaders would rather take QK for that extra dps.

Originally Posted by Marlev

I understand that QK is better for killing random landscape mobs. I'm just worried that Gambler isnt really needed in raids and raid leaders would rather take QK for that extra dps.

Yes, no really successful raiding kin is going to accept TG traited Burglars. TG gains you nothing of any significant value for raiding purposes.

I've found that Gambler provides so much extra functionality that it's my default option for everything, solo or group. It's handy especially when pug'ing or when substantial numbers of the group are still gearing up, because the larger bag of tricks lets you fill in more holes. The little bit of extra dps won't be the deciding factor when things go sideways. But the extra functionality from Gambler may very well could save the day.

However, once everybody knows their role and fewer mistakes get made, then the scales start tipping towards QK. A dead mob is always better than a CC'd mob or a super-debuffed mob.

Then again, once the group is at the point where things are going smooth, then it starts to matter less which one you are traited. So why not trait the fun way?

Originally Posted by Marlev

I understand that QK is better for killing random landscape mobs. I'm just worried that Gambler isnt really needed in raids and raid leaders would rather take QK for that extra dps.

I recommend that you play your burglar the way you enjoy it. I played Quiet Knife for a long time before giving The Gambler a try, and I found that I enjoy TG more.

I think the reason that you don't see many TG burglars is that many (perhaps most?) burglar players don't understand how to play them. I write this because of the several times other burglars (always QK...) have asked me to explain gambles to them. And if many burglars don't know how to play TG, how is a layman raid leader supposed to know? QK is easy to play well; TG isn't. Whichever way you play, learn to play your class well and you'll do fine.

Having said that, one raid where QK is preferable over TG is Draigoch. TG simply cannot match QK for its capability to start Fellowship Maneuvers. (I don't count marbles or Exposed Throat in a Gambler's repertoire because neither is very reliable in my experience) So, if you're going to try for the world speed record for Draigoch, take QK burgs.

Originally Posted by Evendale

Yes, no really successful raiding kin is going to accept TG traited Burglars.

What Evendale should have written is that his kin will not accept TG-traited burglars. He does not speak for all kins.

I trait differently nearly every run I do. I only fully trait QK for Draigoch, everything else is some hybrid (more red for Orthanc wings, less for other content).

We have burgs of every flavor in our kin, and gamblers offer as much (or more) in raids than QK burgs who only DPS.

Remember also, that individual DPS is significant in three or six-person content. In raids, a burgs' main contribution is Reveal Weakness and debuffs, being 1/10ths of the total DPS isn't significant. In fact, if your output is dramatically higher or lower, you'll only shift it the tiniest of fractions of the whole.

But if you can control enough MOBs that a LM can AoE DPS trash instead of keeping multiple things CC'd? You just added a lot more useful DPS to that group than if you lamely went QK.



"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave

Originally Posted by Roberticus

What Evendale should have written is that his kin will not accept TG-traited burglars. He does not speak for all kins.

Well, to be fair, Evendale is a key member in one of the top raiding kins in the world. He was being brutally honest. I think TG is accepted in quite a few raiding kins, it does not mean it meets the usefulness of QK if your intention is to complete difficult raid content.

As it is, if you're far more comfortable with TG it may be worth finding a way to make it worthwhile for your raiding group, but by and large most of the kins that complete T2 content will prefer you go QK.

Originally Posted by RJFerret

We have burgs of every flavor in our kin, and gamblers offer as much (or more) in raids than QK burgs who only DPS.

Don't make the mistake of assuming QK is easy, or that because a Burg actually knows how to DPS that that is all he does. There are quite a few Burgs on my server like that, admittedly, but one is not all. I build to maximise my kinships success at content. QK is best for that.

Originally Posted by Roberticus

I recommend that you play your burglar the way you enjoy it.

Except if you want to do hard content, where you should use whatever's better for the group; qk, mischief or gambler (generally the first). Playing the way you like and not they way is required in raids is egoistic.

I'm really confused. Many of you are saying you use Gambler in raids, so let me ask about Tower of Orthanc. I take my Burglar in there with 5 QK and 2 MM every time. I riddle (for mobs without Adaptation, I switch to Mischief stance to chain-riddle), I add Tricks, and I have a significant amount of DPS while doing so. What would Gambler bring to the party? Some more debuffs at the loss of some DPS? I'd think even MM for having Quite a Snag on the target 100% of the time would be of more use than anything Gambler would give a Burglar, especially in the DPS-race content we've been given.

Am I missing something here? Because I thought that Gambler was our soloing stance. The traits certainly seem to lend themselves to soloing (+stealth speed), as does the stance (+evade).

Originally Posted by canyouaddcolour

Well, to be fair, Evendale is a key member in one of the top raiding kins in the world. He was being brutally honest. I think TG is accepted in quite a few raiding kins, it does not mean it meets the usefulness of QK if your intention is to complete difficult raid content.

I know who Evendale is; and I know who you are. We're all on Elendilmir.

Originally Posted by Cloudie-wan

I'm really confused. Many of you are saying you use Gambler in raids, so let me ask about Tower of Orthanc. I take my Burglar in there with 5 QK and 2 MM every time... What would Gambler bring to the party? ...

I raid Orthanc traited 5B/2Y. TG allows debuffing resistances and further debuffing critical vulnerability far beyond what can be done in QK. These debuffs provide an advantage for the entire raid: debuffed resistances and debuffed critical vulnerability = good times for all.

TG also contains the most powerful mez in the game: the 60s Glee mez. Want to mez a Saruman clone? Apply a 60s Glee mez, use the Ring of Frost to reset the clone's adaptation buff then apply a Riddle. That's 90s of mez -- 10s more than MM can provide with two Riddles, and 20s more than QK can provide even with Perplexing Riddle traited (which I don't recall ever seeing on a QK burg).

TG also contains one of the most powerful debuffs in the game: a Tier 6 debuffing gamble applies +20% miss chance, +40% attack speed, and -30% damage (Disable stacks with this and adds another +5% attack speed and -5% damage). Apply this to whatever Saruman clone is being off-tanked by a Champ/Captain (if you use that tactic) and give your healers a break (or, you can burg-tank if you'd like).

Originally Posted by Cloudie-wan

Am I missing something here? Because I thought that Gambler was our soloing stance. The traits certainly seem to lend themselves to soloing (+stealth speed), as does the stance (+evade).

I don't know that I'd pigeonhole any of the burg trait lines as being a "soloing stance". I went from 1 to 65 in QK before discovering TG. I went from 65 to 75 in TG. QK has more built-in +% Stealth movement speed than TG: 15% vs. 10%.

The increased +% Evade in TG makes Stick and Move more effective (Stick and Move opens up crit responses when attacks are evaded.) As a Gambler I'm at the % cap for crit and evade, which means I have a 25% chance of a crit response on the attack, and also a 25% chance of a crit response on the defense.

Food for thought...

Originally Posted by Roberticus

Food for thought...

Not really.

Yes, my post was short and harsh, but I've made so many posts in the past as to why TG is not good for raiding, that I am never going to be bothered re-hashing it all. Basically, if you can't realize for yourself that TG is not a good raiding traitline, you're a lost cause imo.

Almost everything you list above is just pointless in raids. The debuffing gamble can't be kept up enough to make it worth applying. 5% evade for yourself is beyond useless compared to what you get from QK stance (the crit response chain is pretty much constantly open without S&M - which there is really no room to trait for anyway).

CC is the one thing that TG offers that has some occasional niche usefulness, but in general there aren't many (if any) raid encounters where you can gain enough from the use of the extra CC to warrant giving up so much DPS (you have 12 people to help CC in raids).



Saruman is the only place in OT (or any raid) that I can think of where you might have some use for the Gamble mez. A 90s mez on a Saruman is pretty nice, but it does require you giving up close to 10s (minimum) of your time at the start of the fight to get around adaption (cj, trick, glee, .., GS), which means you're sacrificing a lot of DPS you could add on the first Saruman (& it'll take you considerably longer to debuff it with RW/CD, & you lose 1/3-1/2 your dps for the rest of the fight). It is so important to clear out those two Shadow Sarumans asap, so that you don't get excessive healing puddles, etc, that I still don't think things will actually be any noticably easier with a 90s mez, but I admit that:

Given the way the Saruman fight is set up, such that the start of phase 5 is the one place you're vastly more likely to wipe on in a 30m fight, this is probably the one raid encounter that has ever existed in the game where bringing a TG burg instead of a QK burg doesn't make life more difficult for the raid (assuming you have 3 other very good DPSers, or take a 4th DPS). But still it doesn't change the general principal that TG is bad... I don't see how you could justify traiting TG for any other boss in any other raid.

Originally Posted by Evendale

Basically, if you can't realize for yourself that TG is not a good raiding traitline, you're a lost cause imo.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree for the time being. When I can see that TG is not suitable, I'll be one of the first to admit it, which I already did in the case of Draigoch: TG bad, QK good. I've been in far too many raids where TG's ability to debuff and CC has turned an oncoming wipe into a win. And until someone comes up with the science or voodoo to account for the raid-wide contribution to dps provided by TG's resistance and crit vulnerability debuffs, I don't see how anyone is going to be able to put forward definitive numbers for the QK vs. TG debate. Going back to borrow from 8skyfaller's earlier post: I've never being in a situation where after a wipe, the raid leader has said "if only you'd been traited QK...". The blame almost always lies with a Guardian, anyway.

Before this turns into a debate, realize that the context and circumstances are different for the benefit of each.

TG tends to provide defensive and control benefits, useful for when it's not a DPS race, but more about minimizing incoming damage. As already stated, not so useful in a DPS race (and yes, we are all aware that often the best way to minimize incoming damage is take down an opponent quickly).

QK tends to provide offensive benefits at the expense of control. The cool part about burgs is we still have some control even when we are set for DPS.

Some raid groups tend to need more survival/defensive capabilities to get through the content, while others have no survival issues, and purely focus on DPS in the same content. Those different foundations provide different perspectives and approaches.



"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave

hmmm gambers that was pre mirkwood post SOA? back when you could mez and stun stuff effectivly in the moors and in game?

interesting read. i just hit lvl 75 was told to go QK or go home. i don't really want 1 dagger built for QK and the other for TG.

Originally Posted by keifer

interesting read. i just hit lvl 75 was told to go QK or go home. i don't really want 1 dagger built for QK and the other for TG.

i have 1 dagger QK and 1 dagger MM


QaS is kinda nice.

I'm a gambler and proud of it.

I almost run gambler all around (EM included).
I only QK in ToO T2 Dps run boss. (where sadly QK is mandatory for every burg imo)

Remember that say QK is better for end game raid don't mean QK are > of Gambler, simply how turbine did that fight, DPS is far more important than control.

Honestly i hate that and i would like more tactical fight than stupid dps race but.... the game is like that now and yes, Raid Leader need to ask a burg to trait QK for ToO T2 Boss.

QK is for your run of the mill noob DPS junkies who like to see big numbers and contribute nothing else but DPS kill it now now now look at me go I kill stuff fast.

Gambler is more sophisticated in that lose almost nothing DPS wise and you maintain an unlimited amount of CC and more powerful debuffs than QK or MM.

Most people just want DPS nowadays. Which if they want DPS they should take something other than burgs because the power problems outweigh the dps youre going to get. Doesnt make much sense TBH.

Draigoch and Turtle are really the only 2 fights in the entire game where QK would be worth traiting.

But it really does all come down to personal preference.

Im Gambler and Im proud. 1 of 3 (as far as I have seen) on Landroval. They are few and far between because it takes skill to maximize the benefits. People go QK because its easy and they understand button mash. Gambler will take you far if you can master it; you cant beat it.

Your post is a bit onesided. The truth is that Gambler is the best solo stance for burglar and in all content that don't require DPS race it's very ok. I'll use it all the time. But in ToO T2 Boss DPS race if you're not in QK you loose much dps and you're not helping your raid as you could.

As that combat are designed actually DPS is the only important thing (almost).
I hope that in the future combat and istance require a bit more mind than "crude" dps.

Oh look it's this thread again...

Now where to start...

Originally Posted by Roberticus

I think the reason that you don't see many TG burglars is that many (perhaps most?) burglar players don't understand how to play them. I write this because of the several times other burglars (always QK...) have asked me to explain gambles to them. And if many burglars don't know how to play TG, how is a layman raid leader supposed to know? QK is easy to play well; TG isn't. Whichever way you play, learn to play your class well and you'll do fine.

lol - so what you're saying is that QK is for noobs and Gambler is only for the really skilled players? Keep telling yourself that...

Originally Posted by Feomalo

Except if you want to do hard content, where you should use whatever's better for the group; qk, mischief or gambler (generally the first). Playing the way you like and not they way is required in raids is egoistic.

Good point

Originally Posted by Roberticus

I raid Orthanc traited 5B/2Y. TG allows debuffing resistances and further debuffing critical vulnerability far beyond what can be done in QK. These debuffs provide an advantage for the entire raid: debuffed resistances and debuffed critical vulnerability = good times for all.

Both are decent buffs but they don't make up for your loss in dps even though the group gains some. In short it's not worth it.

Originally Posted by Roberticus

TG also contains the most powerful mez in the game: the 60s Glee mez. Want to mez a Saruman clone? Apply a 60s Glee mez, use the Ring of Frost to reset the clone's adaptation buff then apply a Riddle. That's 90s of mez -- 10s more than MM can provide with two Riddles, and 20s more than QK can provide even with Perplexing Riddle traited (which I don't recall ever seeing on a QK burg).

You haven't looked for PR very much, have you? There's room for two non-QK traits and we swap them around depending on the situation.

Originally Posted by Roberticus

TG also contains one of the most powerful debuffs in the game: a Tier 6 debuffing gamble applies +20% miss chance, +40% attack speed, and -30% damage (Disable stacks with this and adds another +5% attack speed and -5% damage). Apply this to whatever Saruman clone is being off-tanked by a Champ/Captain (if you use that tactic) and give your healers a break (or, you can burg-tank if you'd like).

Nice - and that's the real selling point for a gambler build in raids. It's still not worth it though as it can't be kept up permanently.

Originally Posted by Roberticus

QK has more built-in +% Stealth movement speed than TG: 15% vs. 10%.

I think the poster you quoted was referring to the leafwalker trait. The 15% from QK is useless without leafwalker.

Originally Posted by FA_bio_phazon

QK is for your run of the mill noob DPS junkies who like to see big numbers and contribute nothing else but DPS kill it now now now look at me go I kill stuff fast.

Gambler is more sophisticated in that lose almost nothing DPS wise and you maintain an unlimited amount of CC and more powerful debuffs than QK or MM.

Lose no dps?!? /facepalm

Originally Posted by FA_bio_phazon

Most people just want DPS nowadays. Which if they want DPS they should take something other than burgs because the power problems outweigh the dps youre going to get. Doesnt make much sense TBH.

And there's no way to work on that? /double facepalm

Originally Posted by FA_bio_phazon

Draigoch and Turtle are really the only 2 fights in the entire game where QK would be worth traiting.

lol now you're just being ridiculous

Originally Posted by FA_bio_phazon

But it really does all come down to personal preference.

That is an important point - but too often this is being used as an excuse to not be effective in a raid. Saying "I trait how I like tyvm" is not helpful when there's 11 other people relying on you to do your best for the group. It's selfish.

Originally Posted by FA_bio_phazon

Im Gambler and Im proud. 1 of 3 (as far as I have seen) on Landroval. They are few and far between because it takes skill to maximize the benefits.

No - the reason there's no gamblers around is because nobody likes to nerf themselves.

Originally Posted by FA_bio_phazon

People go QK because its easy and they understand button mash. Gambler will take you far if you can master it; you cant beat it.

Which number is this? I've lost count /triple(?) facepalm

Yes the burglar is a strong class so whichever way you trait will get you far - but in 99% of the content in this game QK beats Gambler. Deal with it.
Gambler does have a niche role in EM and *can* be played with some success there - provided you focus your playstyle around it.

Originally Posted by Evendale

Yes, no really successful raiding kin is going to accept TG traited Burglars. TG gains you nothing of any significant value for raiding purposes.

If defining "really succesful raiding kin" as kins with Orthanc T2 fully cleared, there's really no point questioning this.

As Evendale has argued about a million times already: QK is overall better than Gambler for raiding.

The most effective way to play a burg in Orthanc these days is fully QK specced, including the EM QK armour set. There's really nothing that can compete with the numbers you get from that.

I may be completely wrong, but weren't there some discussion while ago where was prowed that TG can actually achieve higher DPS than QK if played properly?

Originally Posted by Odobenus

I may be completely wrong, but weren't there some discussion while ago where was prowed that TG can actually achieve higher DPS than QK if played properly?

You're right there was a discussion - as there has been numerous.
You're wrong about TG doing more DPS than QK though. I suppose the argument was made that without positional damage it would be a close call. However that's not the case any longer, and equally there's no excuse for not having positional most of the time.
The QK EM armour gives an extra +20% dev crit chance which allows QK burgs to go beyond 2k DPS with ease on training dummies. I can't see gamblers get anywhere near those numbers, but granted a bigger part of their DPS is dot-based so a training dummy is not the best target for comparison.

Still the conclusion is clear: QK does a lot more damage than Gambler.

@ Gillas it all comes down to a matter of opinion. I would go through your posts piece by piece and pick out every little detail where you have nothing factual to back it up too, but that brings me down to your level and you'd probably beat me with experience in stupidity.

This thread is getting way off topic.

Originally Posted by FA_bio_phazon

@ Gillas it all comes down to a matter of opinion. I would go through your posts piece by piece and pick out every little detail where you have nothing factual to back it up too, but that brings me down to your level and you'd probably beat me with experience in stupidity.

This thread is getting way off topic.

Since you were the one who started making ridiculous claims that noone else but you believe, I'd say the "burden of evidence" lies with you.
And let's see: You call 90% of the burg population "noobs", "unsophisticated", "without skill" and "button mashers" and yet you complain when I'm responding to you in a similar way? /facepalm.

And no - it doesn't come down to a matter of opinion when the OP clearly asked: "What's best in a raid setting".
It's basic math and the answer is simple: QK is best.

Hello.

My name is Lardi and I have a habit. I just love the sound of the dice and the special thrill when all six spots turn up. I've come to Gamblers Anonymous to find others who share this view:-)

Tbh what I take so far from this thread is the great unsaid "raid and encounter design leaves quite a bit to be desired 'cos in the end its all just a dps race"

And that is a real pity.

Originally Posted by Mithithil

Hello.

Tbh what I take so far from this thread is the great unsaid "raid and encounter design leaves quite a bit to be desired 'cos in the end its all just a dps race"

And that is a real pity.

I get angry every time I hear the "DPS race" analogy, partly because it is true. In my mind however, the problem isn't so much with the race, as with the racers. As soon as we call the game a race, our first idea is "we have to run faster" ... that is, more DPS. The truth, however, is more subtle.

For this race, we have many variables. The distance of the race for each side varies based on total morale, and armor of mobs and players. The distance of the race can be continually moved even further yet based on healing, buffing, ICMR, rezes for the players, or through healing and adds for the mobs. Every time a player or mob dies, the other side slows down their DPS running speed in the race, but tanks can make the mobs take the longest route possible to eliminating players, thus maximizing the players' speed in the race. And finally, de-buffers can figuratively trip the other side to make them run slower, and crowd control can actually make team members on the other side stop running.

Based on the complexity of the situation, it can often be easier to use the debuffs and crowd control to slow down the mobs' DPS. Slowing down the mobs does make the fight take more time than sprinting past them, however. And the truth is, in most cases, once you understand how the fight works the CC and debuffing is not a requirement to win. At that point it frequently becomes faster just to maximize running speed ... DPS. And in my mind, this makes the game boring.

So, I run gambler to increase my CC and debuffing , which in my mind makes it more challenging and keeps the game fun. Luckily, I play with people who enjoy playing, not just looting as fast as possible. So, if you enjoy Gambler, and the folks you run with are DPS sprinters, just keep looking around. Other folks are out there.

Originally Posted by Gilias

Both are decent buffs but they don't make up for your loss in dps even though the group gains some.

I challenge you to prove it. I mentioned previously the debuffs that TG provides behind the scenes and that I'm not sure whether or not they can be quantified with any tools players currently have at their disposal. You made several comments about numbers and "the math"; and you definitively state that TG buffs [sic] "don't make up for your loss in dps", yet you provide neither numbers nor math.

How have you (or anyone else for that matter) been able to reconcile the increase in DPS done by all of the toons in a raid due to TG debuffs as compared to the individual DPS gap between an individual TG and QK burglar? In other words, how have you been able to measure the force multiplier provided by the debuffs of TG against the individual contribution of QK?

Originally Posted by Odobenus

I may be completely wrong, but weren't there some discussion while ago where was prowed that TG can actually achieve higher DPS than QK if played properly?

If you're talking about individual DPS, I'd have to see the math before I'd believe that. Without seeing any of the math, and with all else being equal, I don't think that TG can out-DPS QK as an individual contributor, no matter how it's played.

Originally Posted by FA_bio_phazon

This thread is getting way off topic.

The OP asked why they didn't see more TG burglars and whether or not QK was mandatory for raiding. Some people are presenting their arguments, while others are screeching and gnashing their teeth. Isn't this the way of any "x vs. y" thread on the Internets?

I am a little sick of all taht ppl that trying on this forum to convice me I should trait in only-one-good-way. Please, allow me to choose. I am raiding burg, I am in one of best raiding groups on my server, and I succesfully raiding in Orthanc in gamble. Even more, we have two burgs in alliance and they are both mostly traited in gamble. Nobody forcing me to trait in other way or force me to trait some exact traits. They do not want to have in alliance player, that must tell him what to do when. I just doing my job.

Also sticking to one trait line is also not a good way of playing imo. We have traits to use them, experiment with them, adapt to situation. But I am deciding about this, nobody will make decision for me.

I like qk when im PvEing but i use gambler if im having trouble with surviving.

Originally Posted by MaxSydney

I get angry every time I hear the "DPS race" analogy, partly because it is true. In my mind however, the problem isn't so much with the race, as with the racers. As soon as we call the game a race, our first idea is "we have to run faster" ... that is, more DPS. The truth, however, is more subtle.

For this race, we have many variables. The distance of the race for each side varies based on total morale, and armor of mobs and players. The distance of the race can be continually moved even further yet based on healing, buffing, ICMR, rezes for the players, or through healing and adds for the mobs. Every time a player or mob dies, the other side slows down their DPS running speed in the race, but tanks can make the mobs take the longest route possible to eliminating players, thus maximizing the players' speed in the race. And finally, de-buffers can figuratively trip the other side to make them run slower, and crowd control can actually make team members on the other side stop running.

Based on the complexity of the situation, it can often be easier to use the debuffs and crowd control to slow down the mobs' DPS. Slowing down the mobs does make the fight take more time than sprinting past them, however. And the truth is, in most cases, once you understand how the fight works the CC and debuffing is not a requirement to win. At that point it frequently becomes faster just to maximize running speed ... DPS. And in my mind, this makes the game boring.

So, I run gambler to increase my CC and debuffing , which in my mind makes it more challenging and keeps the game fun. Luckily, I play with people who enjoy playing, not just looting as fast as possible. So, if you enjoy Gambler, and the folks you run with are DPS sprinters, just keep looking around. Other folks are out there.

Nice balanced post with a realistic perspective.
I might have been a bit harsh in my take on the gambler-line, but it was partly triggered by the "Gamblerz haz teh skillz - QK's iz teh noobs"-hints earlier in the thread.
That being said it is very easy to take offence in these discussions and dig threnches between the two sides and throw mud at each other - which 90% of the forum activities seem to be about anyway...

Originally Posted by Roberticus

I challenge you to prove it. I mentioned previously the debuffs that TG provides behind the scenes and that I'm not sure whether or not they can be quantified with any tools players currently have at their disposal. You made several comments about numbers and "the math"; and you definitively state that TG buffs [sic] "don't make up for your loss in dps", yet you provide neither numbers nor math.

How have you (or anyone else for that matter) been able to reconcile the increase in DPS done by all of the toons in a raid due to TG debuffs as compared to the individual DPS gap between an individual TG and QK burglar? In other words, how have you been able to measure the force multiplier provided by the debuffs of TG against the individual contribution of QK?

Challenge? Really? Don't have to go all medieval on me

I've been busy for a few days - RL 'n stuff - but I'll try to write up the main points now and then include a bit of math in another post in a few days time. Sounds ok?
In the meantime: perhaps you can help me quantifying the dps discrepancy between the two trait lines? Would help if you could provide timed dps parses for a gambler specced burglar. 1 min - full dps. Grab a power pot if needed. I realize the training dummies favor QK burgs over gamblers with all their dots, but I'll take that into account as well.
If you can't provide any parses I'll have to go by my own assumptions - just cause you've "challenged" me doesn't mean you're off the hook

I said earlier that both of the effects are nice buffs - I'll have to modify that a bit:
The subtle stab trait - how much resistance does it take away? Resistance really only matters for dps RK's and to a lesser extent LM's but with raiding gear both classes should have enough finesse to have almost none of their attacks resisted in the first place, which means the effect of the stab-buff is almost non-existant.

The other buff is the interesting one - although it's not strictly limited to a gambler build (yes, traiting full gambler will make it a lot more effective and mean you can keep it up most of the time, I'd imagine). Effectively adding +2% crit chance for everyone in the raid - how much of a damage increase does that translate into?

In order to answer that, one has to make a series of assumptions, cause in the end it all comes down to group balance as the buff affects different classes differently. Assumptions about crit rating, crit multipliers, dps-levels and group balance all have to be made and will obviously steer the results one way or the other.

But as I said: more about all that in a later post.

Originally Posted by Cliford

I am a little sick of all taht ppl that trying on this forum to convice me I should trait in only-one-good-way. Please, allow me to choose. I am raiding burg, I am in one of best raiding groups on my server, and I succesfully raiding in Orthanc in gamble. Even more, we have two burgs in alliance and they are both mostly traited in gamble. Nobody forcing me to trait in other way or force me to trait some exact traits. They do not want to have in alliance player, that must tell him what to do when. I just doing my job.

Also sticking to one trait line is also not a good way of playing imo. We have traits to use them, experiment with them, adapt to situation. But I am deciding about this, nobody will make decision for me.

Nobody's forcing you to trait a specific way - it's your game, so your rules.
It's been said earlier that rating personal traiting preferences higher than group success is selfish and I believe that still stands. But then again let's be honest: who can claim they are not playing the game purely for their own enjoyment/selfish reasons?

So trait the way you want - all I'm asking is you're realistic about your own performance whilst doing so.

Running in Gambler is very viable. The only 'problem' and it isn't really, is that TG doesn't get interesting (for me) until past level 40. I love my gambler. I currently have 2 burgs, one hobbit gambler, and a human traited QK.

I have re-traited from gambler to QK for Draigoch, but for a couple good reasons (one was, I was new to the raid!). Normally I would not re-trait. I don't think anyone needs to tell someone how to play their class. If they do not like how you play it, it might be better to part ways. I always listen to suggestions but not demands.

Originally Posted by Gilias

In the meantime: perhaps you can help me quantifying the dps discrepancy between the two trait lines? Would help if you could provide timed dps parses for a gambler specced burglar. 1 min - full dps. Grab a power pot if needed. I realize the training dummies favor QK burgs over gamblers with all their dots, but I'll take that into account as well...

If you can't provide any parses I'll have to go by my own assumptions...

I'm not about to do any of your work for you. You were the one who went on about numbers and math. You stated: "Both are decent buffs but they don't make up for your loss in dps even though the group gains some" and I asked how you accounted for this. Now you ask me to help you "quantify the dps discrepancy" and provide you with parses after the fact. Either you have the data you used to arrive at "it's basic math and the answer is simple: QK is best", or you don't.

Originally Posted by Gilias

In order to answer that, one has to make a series of assumptions, cause in the end it all comes down to group balance as the buff affects different classes differently. Assumptions about crit rating, crit multipliers, dps-levels and group balance all have to be made and will obviously steer the results one way or the other.

In short: the math isn't so basic. And this goes right to my point: I don't see how anyone has been, or will be, able to conduct an accurate comparison and come up with a "winner", especially in a raid environment.

I don't know what "the numbers" are. I don't know how much of a resistance debuff is applied, nor how much of a critical vulnerability debuff is applied; neither do I know how much or how little DPS benefit any of it applies over the course of a sustained battle. I'm hoping that anyone who claims to know "the numbers" can educate me. Unfortunately, no one has provided anything of substance so far.

Originally Posted by Gilias

I might have been a bit harsh in my take on the gambler-line, but it was partly triggered by the "Gamblerz haz teh skillz - QK's iz teh noobs"-hints earlier in the thread.

You're referring at least in part to me because you took a shot at me earlier in the thread. That's fine. But at least go back and re-read what I wrote. I thought it was pretty clear but, if you want to see some subliminal message in there, there's not much I can do about that. But since we're on the subject, I'm going to provide an example: TG does not provide "buffs". TG provides debuffs, and that's a very important distinction.

If you want an easy and straight forward way to play the class without really taking advantage of what you can really do go with QK. Alot of players that go with QK do it cus they really just want to DPS and see those Big numbers pop up cus thats what they enjoy.

Now if you want to utilize everything the Burg is capable of then go with Gambler. I say this cus The Gambler traitline is a straight mix of Dps(not to be confused with Big damage) and CC. If you stack for Bleeds and get your Physical Mastery fairly high your Damaging Gamble will pip for 400ish every 3 for 15 sec. And your Cunning Attack will Pip for 40-50 every 2 for 20 secs out of stealth. Plus if you get the Bleed stack chance for that you will be able to stack them pretty easy.

To debunk the whole QK vs TG discussion of DPS... TG can attain Higher DPS but QK can attain Higher Burst Damage.

Now to finish off my little post here. A few examples of why TG is better than QK in a few raid fights.

IE; Orthanc Fire/Frost: Boss fight in order to kill the Grims they have to be CC'd. Well use MD on it that will apply a Disabling Gamble which is a Mez. Thats 1 CC then by the time you need to do it again you can use Gamblers Strike to Upgrade that gambler for the next CC to finish off the Grim.

While I like the idea of gambler, it's kinda hypocritical to say "play your own way"... and then immediately bash QK players as noobs.

I think the problem with the numbers is that very few burglars would be good with both lines. As far as I can see the 2 lines require vastly different skill rotations and also there's the unanswered question how much dps is worth losing for extra utility.

Out of curiosity though it would be nice to see a dps comparison between a pure QK and a pure gambler burglar (with comparable gear, don't want a 1st age/2nd age problem getting in the way). You'd need a weapon traited for the line though in order to show the full potential of it and the test probably should be done on an agreed-upon elite to avoid the trouble with the training dummies (might need a tank too, to ensure positional)

I mostly run QK but I can definitely see the fun and advantage in gambler and do run that occationally too. My main problem is breaking my QK habits when going gambler. (ran all 3 traitlines for an extended amount of time each to test them out in all situations. I found that it was needed to run a line for a while to get the rotation right for it and fully learn the advantages/disadvantages of it)

However, some points where gambler definitely wins compared to QK for me has been in endurance fights (last fight LT challenge, 2nd boss in SS ...) fights where you need to slowly dps a boss, take down adds and then slowly dps the boss again. It just simplifies such fights to debuff often. These fights you're waiting around with nothing to do other than debuff while waiting for the adds, so I see no reason to waste that time.

There are a few reasons most burglars you see are QK.

1. Draigoch - You pretty much MUST trait QK for Draigoch for that extra FM starter on demand. I'm normally a Gambler burg, but you will actually find me traited QK most of the time now because of Draigoch. It's too much hassle to constantly retrait.

2. Big DPS - If you like seeing big numbers (and most people do), then QK is the traitline for you.

3. QK is easy to understand - Gambler is VERY confusing when you're first learning it. I've never found anyone in game that has just picked it up on their own. They have to be taught by another burg, or read guides, or both. It's too much hassle for most players to go through.