Thread: Finwë, Míriel and Indis

I have learned more things about these three from the books.

Finwë: King of Noldor who's described as dark haired and white browed, eager of face and thoughtful eyed, having the mastery of words.
Míriel: First wife of Finwë, mother of Fëanor. She's described as having silver hair and dark eyes. She's quite strong willed in spirit. The mistress of embroidery, unlike anyone else in Arda in that skill. Her work was highly prized.
Indis: Second wife or Finwë and sister of Ingwë, the high king of the Elves. Tall, golden haired and swift footed. She was gentle minded, joyful and she always had a light about her. She had a great gift of music - she was a good singer.

After Míriel died, Finwë did give all his love for his son Fëanor. But later he started to want more children and didn't believe that Míriel would return (she said herself that she wouldn't want to), which is the reason why he wanted another wife. It's not a simple arrangement with the Elves, and which is why Míriel couldn't get back to life for a long time.

Indis had been dreaming of Finwë for quite some time and didn't marry anyone else for it, and Ingwë wondered about the strange sorrow of Finwë so he invited him to have some rest in Valinor. Finwë didn't come immediately but agreed to it at last, coming there unexpected where he met Indis, and in the time of his sorrow she wanted to comfort him and she was what he needed. In her company he could forget his sorrows for a while, but the shadow of Míriel didn't really leave him.

I understood that when Finwë moved in with Fëanor in tightly guarded house, around that time Indis also stopped seeing him, because she was tired of the jealousy and violence that had happened between Noldor (Fëanor's sword on Fingolfin's throat, etc). In Finwë's words, he did still love her as much as he loved Míriel, but he hadn't seen her in years. So it might be that she returned to Valinor quite some time earlier than after Finwë's death. While Finwë gave all his love and attention to Fëanor again, Indis would do the same with her children, which is of course sons Fingolfin and Finarfin, and (often not mentioned) daughters Findis and Irimë.

So, all in all, Finwë had five children - one with Míriel and four with Indis.

Finwë met Míriel again when he was killed by Morgoth (with lightning, it reads), and Míriel was delighted to see him. When I read about what she had to say to Finwë about Indis and her children, I don't think she had much jealousy towards them. After all, it was her who said that that she was sorry that she didn't return sooner to teach Fëanor to better wisdom, that Fingolfin and Finarfin would grow great in might and bring glory to the Noldor to fix Fëanor's errors, and that "Indis hath my love" for it.

She also said that she was willing to return in her body, which was lying flawless in the gardens of Lórien, but Mandos was not willing to change the doom that the three had. So Finwë offered to stay as her ransom instead, so she would be free to go (and to fix his own mistakes he did with his family). Mandos agreed to this, so eventually Míriel did return to life, but Finwë would stay in her stead in the Halls forever to set her free.

But as she was back in life she noticed that her life in Aman wasn't what it used to be. So she returned in the Halls of Mandos in her bodily form, and became the handmaid of Vairë, who already had kept her side in the debate between Valar about her. I don't really wonder this, because Vairë is the weaver and Míriel is the mistress of embroidery. I knew they had a lot in common.

All these characters have a lot of layers to them which are not explained in the Silmarillion fully - their bright sides, grey areas and some dark sides that are related to the "marring of Arda" worked by Morgoth.

What do you think of these characters? I don't know what to think of Finwë, but Míriel has my sympathies and I can understand that Indis must have been so frustrated with her husband.

I also think I now understand why Fëanor didn't want to leave Halls of Mandos. His core family was there to stay - his mother in her body and his father without.

witch book of HoME is this from? I have never read this before and just finished the Silmarillion for the x amount of times.

It's from different parts of Morgoth's Ring. I quite enjoyed it because I like Vanyar and stories with them are rare - about Ingwë especially. And we get to know the nature and appearance of all three much better.

There are parts in the book that are hard to comb through because there are many versions of some things there, and many corrections and side notions to go with. But other parts like this are very enjoyable.

Originally Posted by Lindaelle

So, all in all, Finwë had five children - one with Míriel and four with Indis.

According to The Silmarillion, Finwë sired three children, one with Míriel—Fëanor— and two with Indis—Fingolfin and Finarfin. Whatever you have read in any another source is not accepted as accurate. It should be noted that it is customary when sharing information that you provide the title of the work and its author.

The Silmarillion was published in 1977, four years after the death of its author, J.R.R. Tolkien. Professor Tolkien worked on this material from 1917 until his death in 1973. Christopher Tolkien, the executor of his father's literary estate, was its editor. (A second edition was published in the UK by HarperCollins Publishers in 1999. An identical second edition was publised in the USA by Houghton Mifflin Company in 2001.)

While there are difficulties with The Silmarillion, Christopher Tolkien gives a brief summary of the challenges he faced in the book's Foreward, it is generally regarded as the closest to canon of the old legends of Arda. The History of Middle-earth, posthumously published in twelve volumes between 1983 and 1996, on the other hand, is a collection of some of the many variations that Tolkien wrote during his long lifetime accompanied by Christopher Tolkien's commentary. (Some of J.R.R. Tolkien's yet unpublished work resides in the Bodleian Library at Oxford.) It definitely is not regarded as canon.

Originally Posted by Lindaelle

I also think I now understand why Fëanor didn't want to leave Halls of Mandos. His core family was there to stay - his mother in her body and his father without.

I haven't got any quotes to hand but Feanor wasn't permitted to leave the Halls of Mandos because of his crimes, not because he chose to stay there (though it's quite possible he would have chosen to stay there regardless). At least that's how I remember it.

Maybe all material in HoME (such as Finwë's daughters) isn't fully canonical because some of the stories were abandoned, but it's material from JRRT's pen none the less. I love the chances to discover pieces in the puzzle that just might fit in.

And it's still a better read to see the abandoned text of JRRT than the bad fanfics and (godforbid!) their shippings... they make me shudder, especially knowing some of the Professor's ideas and inspirations.

And yes the bit about Fëanor staying was my idea, actually. It would make sense, since he did love his father and held his mother high in value, though he never met her. They might be a good reason for him to stay.

According to the text in HoME, Námo wouldn't have let Finwë to leave either for the trouble he caused, so he was glad that Finwë chose to stay by will. But I don't think Finwë's crimes were half as bad as Fëanor's. Which one is worse, being an absent father or a massacre under Morgoth's influence?

Originally Posted by Beleg-Of-Doriath

I haven't got any quotes to hand but Feanor wasn't permitted to leave the Halls of Mandos because of his crimes...

Although there may be another passage that specifically states why Fëanor wasn't permitted to leave the Halls of Mandos, all I could find in The Silmarillion is this:

As three great jewels they were in form. But not until the End, when Fëanor shall return who perished ere the Sun was made, and sits now in the Halls of Awaiting and comes no more among his kin; not until the Sun passes and the Moon falls, shall it be known of what substance they were made.

This is in contrast to the fate of his nephew Finrod Felagund who sacrificed himself to save Beren:

They buried the body of Felagund upon the hill-top of his own isle, and it was clean again; and the green grass of Finrod Finarfin's son, fairest of all the princes of the Elves, remained inviolate, until the land was changed and broken, and foundered under destroying seas. But Finarfin walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.

I always find that last line particularly moving.

Originally Posted by Lindaelle

Maybe all material in HoME (such as Finwë's daughters) isn't fully canonical because some of the stories were abandoned, but it's material from JRRT's pen none the less.

The problem is when one thing that Tolkien wrote (sometimes with a fountain pen, others with a pencil, and others via typewriter) contradicts something else that he wrote. I have no problem with you (or anyone else) sharing things from HoME that you find interesting, just be certain to present it as such. Remember that many people visit this forum who are not as familiar with HoME or with The Silmarillion as you and I, and may become confused.

Originally Posted by Lindaelle

And it's still a better read to see the abandoned text of JRRT than the bad fanfics and (godforbid!) their shippings... they make me shudder, especially knowing some of the Professor's ideas and inspirations.

I share your feelings in this matter. I, too, am no fan of 'Fanfic'

Hm, having read forth it says that the estrangement between Finwë and Indis hasn't been mentioned anywhere else but that part of text (so it's not clear whether Professor meant this canonical), and instead it's been said that Nerdanel (Fëanor's wife) seeked a permission to abide with Indis. So while their husbands would stay in Mandos, their widowed wives would also live in the same house. Also an interesting bit.

Originally Posted by Beleg-Of-Doriath

I haven't got any quotes to hand but Feanor wasn't permitted to leave the Halls of Mandos because of his crimes, not because he chose to stay there (though it's quite possible he would have chosen to stay there regardless). At least that's how I remember it.

I choose to believe this as well. It would make sense for Mandos to not release Feanor from his halls. After all, the wrath of the Valar followed the House of Feanor "from the West unto the uttermost East", because of their Oath and because of the slaying of the Teleri in Aman. It is only fitting that they "imprison" Feanor, the author of the crimes stated in the Doom of Mandos.