Thread: What is balance?

I hear lots of talk about how PvMP is unbalanced (and I agree), but what would it take for it to be balanced?

I'd like to hear your opinions because I personally don't know how to make it truly balanced

Originally Posted by Uron

I hear lots of talk about how PvMP is unbalanced (and I agree), but what would it take for it to be balanced?

I'd like to hear your opinions because I personally don't know how to make it truly balanced

Regarding your post, PvMP is unbalanced because Freeps have LIs (Legendary Items) to tweak up the way that they want too as well as it takes about 2 Creeps to kill one Freep (depending upon the class and play style). I'm sure there are more reasons that I can go on..

I would say the core problem that supercedes every other problem is the power of freep DPS compared to creep survivability.

Creeps facerolling Freeps?

Not really face-rolling, just the ratio is what I'm talking. Being that Minstrel's God-mode abilities and as well as Warden's God-mode abilities. The survivability rate has gone down I think.

Originally Posted by Uron

What is Balance?

That word doesn't exist in the morres, it never has and it never will by the looks of things.

Balance, assuming you're talking about single player versus single player, is a utopian goal that cannot be attained by any class based rule system. The complex interactions between the various tiers of offense and defense capabilities ensure that no serious attempt at balancing can succeed. How does one provide equal survivability against melee attacks for both a light armor wearer and a heavy armor wearer? How does one balance offensive capability between primarily ranged and primarily melee?

And how can one balance skills? Root a melee, he's temporarily harmless. Root a missile user, and he doesn't lose a single jot of DPS. Naturally, melee types are going to consider roots 'imbalancing', and want a way to avoid or counter them. The same basic scenario can be recreated using just about any skill.

Now, if a skill's effectiveness has to be nullified to provide balance, what's the point in having the skill? And if there's no point in having skills unique to classes, why have classes? True balance, at least at the game mechanic level, can only be achieved by using homogenous player abilities; no one gets to do anything unique as far as game mechanics are concerned. Player ability alone makes the difference.

There are many things that would have to be done to achieve balance, but I think that one of the major things would be recapping stats. The uncapping of stats allowed freeps to achieve very high dps and healing, completely unbalancing the moors since creeps can't build themselves to the extent that freeps can, nor do they rely on stats like freeps do.

While uncapping stats was good for PvE, it is detrimental to PvP. I'm not sure how this would be implemented without screwing PvE, but something needs to be done about it.

Originally Posted by Samus1111111

There are many things that would have to be done to achieve balance, but I think that one of the major things would be recapping stats. The uncapping of stats allowed freeps to achieve very high dps and healing, completely unbalancing the moors since creeps can't build themselves to the extent that freeps can, nor do they rely on stats like freeps do.

While uncapping stats was good for PvE, it is detrimental to PvP. I'm not sure how this would be implemented without screwing PvE, but something needs to be done about it.

Weren't freep stats uncapped in SoA too, the supposed golden age for balance?

Balancing to 1v1 is not impossible, balancing RvR/GvG on top of that is not impossible. Difficult perhaps, but doable.
Significant Freep updates are just too regular, and the equivalent update for creeps are months late, and then balanced to a point where it is left in the dust an update later.

Large things need to be addressed - Healing and DPS disparity.
Small things need to be addressed - Warden/Minnie self heals and Defiler/WL damage output.

Changing those things alone (They are for the most part tied in together) will go a long way. Specifics will then be far easier to manage.

Originally Posted by Uron

What is balance?

Baby don't hurt me

Originally Posted by GrandCru

Creeps facerolling Freeps?

lol another failed trolling attempt


Anw balance is....

Buff creeps.

Significantly.

Originally Posted by UrsaMinor

Balance, assuming you're talking about single player versus single player, is a utopian goal that cannot be attained by any class based rule system. The complex interactions between the various tiers of offense and defense capabilities ensure that no serious attempt at balancing can succeed. How does one provide equal survivability against melee attacks for both a light armor wearer and a heavy armor wearer? How does one balance offensive capability between primarily ranged and primarily melee?

And how can one balance skills? Root a melee, he's temporarily harmless. Root a missile user, and he doesn't lose a single jot of DPS. Naturally, melee types are going to consider roots 'imbalancing', and want a way to avoid or counter them. The same basic scenario can be recreated using just about any skill.

Now, if a skill's effectiveness has to be nullified to provide balance, what's the point in having the skill? And if there's no point in having skills unique to classes, why have classes? True balance, at least at the game mechanic level, can only be achieved by using homogenous player abilities; no one gets to do anything unique as far as game mechanics are concerned. Player ability alone makes the difference.

While your point is fair, balance can be achieved. It is, however, difficult. Ultimately, it comes down to setting your mechanics up so that relative skill-with-their-class becomes the deciding factor over specific classes vs specific classes and gear vs gear. Which you point out. It's not easy, of course. And I can't name an MMO that's really achieved it. But even with classes and different skills it can be done.

Ideally, any character should be able (mechanically) to beat any other character - if they play well. Obviously, it's not working that way now.

Is there a solution for LoTRO? Probably, yes. But whether the time and effort to implement it will be worth the developer's resources is the question. PvMP is only a fraction of the LoTRO experience and those who really enjoy it are a minority.

I will say, as I have before, that constantly favoring the Freep side, while the more vocal, ultimately hurts the PvMP experience for everyone. If the Creepside players feel they're just there to feed the Freeps, they'll get bored, or frustrated, and go elsewhere. While this may be the actual intention - keep the skilled Creeps hampered so the Freeps have an easier time of it - it's really not helping the game experience.

Originally Posted by WitchKingofAngmar

it takes about 2 Creeps to kill one Freep (depending upon the class and play style).

What? really? I must be horrible then!

1v1 is the closest creep vs freep balance, idk what youre talking about.

Originally Posted by Stevo6

Buff creeps.

Significantly.

And how would you do that? Anyone can point out something wrong. A lot of the time buffs completely ruin balance in favor of the buffed class, when they were previously one of the worst classes (see champs, wardens)

Originally Posted by Untg99

Weren't freep stats uncapped in SoA too, the supposed golden age for balance?

As far as I know, no, they weren't uncapped until RoI, but I wasn't around back then :P.

To answer the OP, true balanced would be achieved by having one class, but thats not fun at all. You cant play to your opponents weaknesses and make sure your stregnths are shown, since everything is the same.

Balance with variety is hard, you cant just buff the f out of the weaknesses, otherwise there are none and you cant be countered. You cant have your weaknesses be too weak, otherwise your counter would wreck you with no chance. Some people would call that balance, though. Everything beats something, like rock paper scissors. A lot of people want the everything beats everything balance. I'm not going to suggest specifics, because I would have to think about it for a while, then test it, which im not able to do, obviously.

Originally Posted by gageithman

And how would you do that? Anyone can point out something wrong. A lot of the time buffs completely ruin balance in favor of the buffed class, when they were previously one of the worst classes (see champs, wardens)

Wargs have been buffed. Are they OP? No. There is a lot of them, but that's not relevant.

Buff creep damage, buff creep mitigation, lower morale. Obviously, having high mits with high morale will cause imbalance. Or, just increase morale further and increase damage. Although clearly, more morale isn't helping creeps.

Some good stuff so far in this thread.

Although from the looks of things, only creeps see things as unbalanced. I see out in the 'moors how I'm dropped quickly (huge hits/crits), and how little damage I do comparatively, and I wonder how it would seem if our damage and mitigations were increased to freep levels.

I'm sure much QQ would ensue. But since that's not an option, perhaps it's time to add more skills to creep skillbars? My champion has almost 4 full bars, my reaver barely has two. Not all skills need to be attacks... My reaver would kill for a Seeking Blades skill that would autocrit my Dev Strike :P

Unfortunately like a couple posters already mentioned, the only way to really have %100 balance is to make PVP a single class system with everyone having the exact same skills, stats, etc...... and no way to advance your character. Just step into the pvp zone, and boom: you are exactly the same in every way to every other character.

Would people be happy that way? Of course not, people like myself who are just naturally poor players, would still lose %99 of their fights, and would cry for a handicap system.

Also, removes most of the fun of playing a game like this, which is to choose a class you like to play, and advance your characters. AND, destroys the fundamental group system that makes these games fun, whether it's PVE or PVP.

Of course there is always room for tweaking and improving the classes, and LOTRO PVMP is no exception. Sadly though, in these types of games, it is usually poorly done, with the weakest and the strongest classes changing positions, and then no one is happy.

I play both sides casually, and have always preferred to play freep, because of the time I had invested into that char. Lately though, I've found myself having more fun, and doing better on my creep. Not really sure why, maybe has more to do with the dynamics of our particular server than with the strength/weekness of the classes/races.

Enjoy the game!

r10+ creeps vs freeps with (normal) non-legandary weapons would be kinda balanced I guess.

Urgent Turbine Developer Meeting regarding balance:

Sapience: "A lot of you have been hearing the players complaining about a lack of balance in the Ettenmoors."

Orion: "What in the heck's 'balance'?"

Kelsan: "Well, I could be wrong, but I believe balance is an old, old wooden ship that was used during the Civil War era."

Zombie_Columbus: "Mm. I just burnt my tongue.

Sapience: "Kelsan, I would be surprised if the players were concerned about the lack of an old, old wooden ship, but nice try."


Compiled from an assortment of quotes from one of my favorite movies of all time, Anchorman .

Originally Posted by Untg99

Weren't freep stats uncapped in SoA too, the supposed golden age for balance?

No, they were not. Up until RoI there was always a cap on stats in relation to ones lvl, iirc. In SoA players at lvl 50 were capped at 500 on stats or 10 x level.

Balance will be on sale once Turbine figures out how to con people into spending 5000 turbine points to get it.

I believe that in order to get balance turbine needs to focus on not only Creep vs Freep but balancing creep v creep and freep v freep.

I believe the classes need to get back to what they were ORIGINALLY intended to do. I believe that in doing this not only would it decrease over all DPS and increase survivability for both sides but it would promote grouping more (whether or not that is a good thing is debatable). I believe through doing this it would help balance the game.

As an example minstrels should not be able to do such a large amount of burst DPS. The class has been made to heal and support not to be a tactical nuke class. There is absolutely no reason a minstrel should hit for 5k damage or for that matter hit for 2k on a consistent basis. I already know that minstrels will cry like crazy (like they did when WS got a very rightful nerf) so I'd like to add that with a DPS nerf they should get little buffs. I believe that minstrels should be made a little more survivable without even using heals. For instance they should get added armor value to make them less squishy. Another one that sticks out to me is LM's. The amount of burst DPS an LM has is just insane. Considering all the anti cc we have in the moors the LM should still have DPS but the amount of burst needs to be toned down. I think a BE that lasts 55sec is cool but I think for a nearly 1min dot the initial damage should only be equal to a tic of the dot.

On creep side I wouldn't make nearly as many changes but I would make some. Because creep side does not have as many different classes turbine has crammed things like tanking ability into classes like a warg. I believe wargs should be a stealth/dps class like intended rather then a ton of survivability (save hips and sprint).

These are not the only changes that would need to be made to balance PvP but I think it would go a long way. Wardens for example are pretty much how they were originally intended they are just very powerful. Hunters I would say are almost the same as originally but I feel they were given a little to much CC.

Those are only a few things I have in mind. Obviously these changes would only make sense for PvP and would be a terrible mistake in PvE land. I believe that simplifying the classes and bringing back the main point of them should help balance PvP.

Basically the game needs to get back where it started. Instead of listen to the support classes cry about needing dps and giving it to them turbine should be doing the opposite. Take it back to how it was in SoA as far as class balance goes and we would see a much improved moors. I also believe that we would see more class diversity.

In order to ensure balance turbine needs to take a deeper look at PvP when it comes to updates. There is no point in spending the time balancing PvP if they will not keep up with it. I also understand that must be something fairly difficult to do. If they come out with an update that allows freeps to earn a new set of gear or LI's and they buff creeps at the same update then creeps will have an advantage for awhile. It obviously works the other way as well. If they wait to give the creeps there buffs down the road (like they have traditionally) then creeps will be gimp for that time period. I don't think there is an easy way to fix this imbalance without giving creeps the same Pve and similiar rewards as freeps have (which I'm opposed to).

They could split PvP and PvE skills and mechanics. For example, the PvE version of a skill does a gajillion damage and a 1 hour stun, but the PvP version is toned down to do a reasonable amount of damage and a 2 second stun.

Guild Wars did the skill split, and even though the PvP balance was already in the &&&&ter by the time they implemented it, it did end up helping alot. I'd want take it a step further by introducing PvP only skills designed and balanced for the Moors - but that would take much developer resources that they probably don't have. Just a skill split and excluding certain skills/mechanics that detriment PvP gameplay should be easily manageable though.

Originally Posted by Slin6

I believe the classes need to get back to what they were ORIGINALLY intended to do. I believe that in doing this not only would it decrease over all DPS and increase survivability for both sides but it would promote grouping more (whether or not that is a good thing is debatable). I believe through doing this it would help balance the game.

I don't agree that classes should be locked into their original roles, or incapable of performing different roles. The problem right now is that these primary healers and supports can switch to their DPS mode and put out insane amounts of damage rivaling the primary DPS classes while still able to heal/support effectively enough against creeps. Specializing DPS needs to have heavier drawbacks on the other areas of the class than what exists now.

I've only ever crit 2k on a Creep.

But an RK can hit for 3k with one attack, and then...

Turbine's epic fail with trying to make PvP balance. LOL

Balance is in my pants !

What is balance?

Balance is when you...
balance is...it' like...
it's kinda...sorta like a...

What is balance?
HERE...Let me spell it for you!


B is for Balls which you'll need to get kills
A is for Arch-nemesis
L is for LOLing and LMAOing
at your fallen enemies

A's for Audacity -- you can't go without
N is for NPC disarm
C is for Corpse jumping, camping and threat dumping
E is for Elf camp faaarm~


Now you try it!

Balance- Something not intended by Turbine.

Balance - something that another game might offer you but not Turbine.

Balance is that which an individual player perceives usually when they are winning more often than losing, but not winning all the time.

Without reading anything yet. The main reason imo that brings imballance and deceives people making them think that creep DPS sucks compared to freeps DPS, same for creep heals vs freep heals is the mitigations.

When RoI came out mit stacking was introduced, all mits were merged so freeps could now stack mitigations (same for creeps though). That deceives people and makes them think that creep DPS is gimped. I can say that freep DPS is gimped too. The damage I do to creeps suck.... EXCEPT FOR WHEN I CRIT. This is the only way to go around audacity/mits, CRITICAL. Freeps can stack crit, creeps can't. Therefore freep DPS seems to be OP, and as a consequence freep heals seem to be OP too. Now you' ll say, so all creeps should stack crit defense and they would be fine. NO. creeps can stack 14-15% crit defense with their corruptions, unbuffed. freep crit cap is 25% plus external buffs, multipliers etc. Now even if a creep stacks crit defense, his mits or morale would significally drop (depending on the corruptions they used) and for what? 15% crit defense? Some crits would go through, and even if they didn't the creep would still die cuz of the loss of mits and morale. And yeah, despite creeps not being able to stack crit, they sure need some more base damage. I forgot, that is one of the reasons wargs have really good DPS in shadow stance now, lots and lots of crit.

The problem lies in the very root, in the very mechanics of combat, incoming and outgoing damage. Back in mirkwood there were some mits and there was a -% inc damage (melee, ranged, tact) but it was low. Funny though, it's been almost a year since RoI came out and they haven't figured out a solution yet, if they don't fix it in RoR I doubt why anyone should continue playing this game if they don't find ballance in PVP. PVP is end game content...

I mean there are fosho more reasons out there but in my opinion that's the main one. Feel free to comment/agree/disagree.

My post is kind of a mess, my apologies, it's been a long day of drinking at my cousins wedd, i did my best

keep on going creepos/freepos

Originally Posted by Therealmvp

Without reading anything yet. The main reason imo that brings imballance and deceives people making them think that creep DPS sucks compared to freeps DPS, same for creep heals vs freep heals is the mitigations.

When RoI came out mit stacking was introduced, all mits were merged so freeps could now stack mitigations (same for creeps though). That deceives people and makes them think that creep DPS is gimped. I can say that freep DPS is gimped too. The damage I do to creeps suck.... EXCEPT FOR WHEN I CRIT. This is the only way to go around audacity/mits, CRITICAL. Freeps can stack crit, creeps can't. Therefore freep DPS seems to be OP, and as a consequence freep heals seem to be OP too. Now you' ll say, so all creeps should stack crit defense and they would be fine. NO. creeps can stack 14-15% crit defense with their corruptions, unbuffed. freep crit cap is 25% plus external buffs, multipliers etc. Now even if a creep stacks crit defense, his mits or morale would significally drop (depending on the corruptions they used) and for what? 15% crit defense? Some crits would go through, and even if they didn't the creep would still die cuz of the loss of mits and morale. And yeah, despite creeps not being able to stack crit, they sure need some more base damage. I forgot, that is one of the reasons wargs have really good DPS in shadow stance now, lots and lots of crit.

The problem lies in the very root, in the very mechanics of combat, incoming and outgoing damage. Back in mirkwood there were some mits and there was a -% inc damage (melee, ranged, tact) but it was low. Funny though, it's been almost a year since RoI came out and they haven't figured out a solution yet, if they don't fix it in RoR I doubt why anyone should continue playing this game if they don't find ballance in PVP. PVP is end game content...

I mean there are fosho more reasons out there but in my opinion that's the main one. Feel free to comment/agree/disagree.

My post is kind of a mess, my apologies, it's been a long day of drinking at my cousins wedd, i did my best

keep on going creepos/freepos

The only evidence I need to say that freep dps is OP is the fact that I, a 19k heavy armoured class, get blown to smitherines in a matter of seconds by as little as 4 freeps.

You, on the other hand, as the armoured freep counterpart to WL, could last as long as 30-45 seconds against 4 creeps.

Originally Posted by Squelcher

The only evidence I need to say that freep dps is OP is the fact that I, a 19k heavy armoured class, get blown to smitherines in a matter of seconds by as little as 4 freeps.

You, on the other hand, as the armoured freep counterpart to WL, could last as long as 30-45 seconds against 4 creeps.

Yessir that is correct. Now think how much longer you would last if those freeps wouldn't crit on you with: 1.5k pen shots, 2k remorseless etc etc etc. This is what I said, freeps get high crits, creeps dont. Those 4 creeps would crit me for: 300-600ish, except for Dev strikes/VTs/Revenge, they crit me for 1k. The thing with those remorseless/pen shots etc etc have the crit multipliers, meaning freeps are built to crit and thus doing high amount of damage no matter how big the defenses of the target are. The only skill on creepside other than wargs that has an increased crit chance as well as an increased crit multiplier is Dev strike. VTs/Revenges just have big base damage, if they don't crit, they scratch me. This is what it comes down to, critting on big skills. Now, they could give creeps crit. This would accomplish one thing only, fasten the pace of combat, fights would be a lot shorter. This ain't good. It was okay back in mirkwood where crit cap was 15% and creeps still had 10% ish crit chance, plus there were no mits/audacity (there were but they were insignificant). I mean think about it this way, say creeps and freeps have equal DPS/heals and they engage in a open field rvr with equal numbers. Creeps win cuz of the warleader rezzes. The topic is really complicated man, just blame turbine that they can't support a game.

As for me lasting that long against 4 creeps, 1st: It depends on the creeps (classes/skill) and 2nd: You as a warleader don't have pledge, but you can also heals etc etc, your role is different. You can't compare. This ofc opens another topic, the lack of cooldowns on creepside. What can I say man, I believe we can both agree with one fact, creepside is way underdeveloped. The way I think of it is like: when they were building the game, they were intending to make 2 different sides, the good one and the bad one, they started with the good side but then they ran out of space/time/money so they served us what is known as Monster Play.

Originally Posted by Therealmvp

As for me lasting that long against 4 creeps, 1st: It depends on the creeps (classes/skill) and 2nd: You as a warleader don't have pledge, but you can also heals etc etc, your role is different. You can't compare. This ofc opens another topic, the lack of cooldowns on creepside. What can I say man, I believe we can both agree with one fact, creepside is way underdeveloped. The way I think of it is like: when they were building the game, they were intending to make 2 different sides, the good one and the bad one, they started with the good side but then they ran out of space/time/money so they served us what is known as Monster Play.

Actually, the reason creepside is underdeveloped is because LOTRO wasn't going to have pvmp in it until very near the release of it. Thus, they spent waaaaaaaay more time on freeps and pve than they did on creeps and pvmp and that trend has continued to this day since, according to turbine, they are a "PvE Game" ><.

Originally Posted by Therealmvp

As for me lasting that long against 4 creeps, 1st: It depends on the creeps (classes/skill) and 2nd: You as a warleader don't have pledge, but you can also heals etc etc, your role is different. You can't compare.

WL can heal, true, but without being free to use his inductions, the healing capacity is negligible. WL's are creepside's primary tank and have higher mitigations than any other creep and before RoI had higher mitigations than any class in the game. Our role does compare to guard.

Originally Posted by Therealmvp

What can I say man, I believe we can both agree with one fact, creepside is way underdeveloped.

Yes we do agree there.

Originally Posted by Squelcher

WL can heal, true, but without being free to use his inductions, the healing capacity is negligible. WL's are creepside's primary tank and have higher mitigations than any other creep and before RoI had higher mitigations than any class in the game. Our role does compare to guard.

This is very true, but since RoI WLs have a medium armour mitigation and a very low b/p/e rating compared to guardians (and wardens, and captains), making them terrible as tanks. They're only decent tanks compared to other creep classes, but nearly all of them count as light armour classes now.

Originally Posted by Uron

but what would it take for it to be balanced?

Competent devs who actually cared about making a balanced game rather than the comically inept clownshoes we currently have who care more about making a platform to sell lockbox keys and store brands.