Thread: Myths about PVP

I love how some people make up indicators of skill in PVP and new rules. Some of the most common ones are:

1. "Rating matters". Players with lots of stars often act as if they had great skills, although usually those come from ganking weaker players and/or zerging in a raid. Those who have no stars say they are brave and always willing to fight till the end, while most of them are simply bad players who have no idea how to survive in the Moors. Also, luck plays a huge role. One can easily lose a few hundred points per day if he gets zerged by opponents' raids. Not to mention that sometimes people have fun charging into raids and thus lose a lot of rating points.

2. "If you have many kbs then you are a good pvp-er; if not, you are probably a raid-baby". The easiest way to get a lot of kbs is to 1 vs 1 all the time (or even farm one's own toons, if one can stoop as low as to do it). Therefore, I laugh at guys who stick their chests out for having a lot of kbs, while most of the "achievement" usually comes from beating low-rank and undergeared opponents one on one. Or, another scenario, ganking 1 vs 1/stealing kbs from other players. Picking the right timing to deliver the final blow doesn't actually imply much playing skills.

3. "Players with a high renown per kill rate rock". Renown per kill doesn't mean anything at all. The easiest way to get a huge rate is to prefer doing quests to actually pvp-ing. Therefore, if a person earns 10,000 renown questing and then gets 100 points for a kill, then his ratio will be 10,100 to 1. And some people are seriously discussing who has a 15 to 1 and who has 40 to 1 ration and making conclusions about who is the better player!

4. "I can beat you in a 1 vs 1, thus I am a better player". The Moors is about teamwork and open field pvp. It is not a duel arena. Each class performs better against some of the other classes and worse against the rest. Also, people are not supposed to use builds that are optimized for spars. If your main goal is to perform well in big fights, then why trait for 1 vs 1? Another problem is gear. Sometimes the odds are huge.

5. "He blew this and that, what a disgrace". Making up rules is a lame excuse. Of course, most of us dislike broken OP classes and players who purchase a lot of items from the store. However, it it ridiculous how some people make up rules along the way: you can't use this, can't use that and so on. Sometimes I am not even sure if auto-attacks are allowed. And if one doesn't even use pretty much anything, others can still gank him for being OP. For me the solution was to become more tolerant and face the reality: each person has his own playing style, and, no matter how irritating it seems to you, you can't make them play in a different way. If they want to pay to win, it's fine. They want to zerg - ok. And so on.

6. "Soloing is cool, raiding up makes you a bad player". There are good and bad soloers and raiders. However, some of the most skillful people often have a large ego, so they don't want to share their glory and renown with anyone else. Nevertheless, it doesn't make anyone who raids up a raid baby. In fact, most players are just trying to have fun and to socialize, so one shouldn't blame them for this or harshly criticize their skills. After all, it's a game, not a job. Additionally, being good at team-work actually requires more skill than sticking to your own business and ignoring everyone else.

7. "All the freeps are OP, all the creeps are underpowered". It depends on the skills and amount of time invested into improving the character, and knowledge of one's class. Good players can beat bad players even when on their low-ranked creep toons or undergeared freeps. It is hard to make an accurate evaluation here, but if we take the average time it takes to get to 75 for a freep and have the same person play for this amount of time on the creep, I doubt the creep will be weaker. And getting the top endgame gear requires dedication and skills more or less equal to becoming a vet creep. A common argument is that freeps have the privilege of levelling comfortably in a pve zone, while creeps are always at risk. However, one can do quests in deserted areas and avoid getting ganked. Also, even if a creep does get killed while questing, then how is it different from a freep being killed by a mob in a pve zone? Just go on doing your stuff. It's not like your rating has been damaged for eternity. You will catch up later.

And what are your favorite myths about PVP?

Originally Posted by Otdanon

I love how some people make up indicators of skill in PVP and new rules. Some of the most common ones are:

1. "Rating matters". Players with lots of stars often act as if they had great skills, although usually those come from ganking weaker players and/or zerging in a raid. Those who have no stars say they are brave and always willing to fight till the end, while most of them are simply bad players who have no idea how to survive in the Moors. Also, luck plays a huge role. One can easily lose a few hundred points per day if he gets zerged by opponents' raids. Not to mention that sometimes people have fun charging into raids and thus lose a lot of rating points.

2. "If you have many kbs then you are a good pvp-er; if not, you are probably a raid-baby". The easiest way to get a lot of kbs is to 1 vs 1 all the time (or even farm one's own toons, if one can stoop as low as to do it). Therefore, I laugh at guys who stick their chests out for having a lot of kbs, while most of the "achievement" usually comes from beating low-rank and undergeared opponents one on one. Or, another scenario, ganking 1 vs 1/stealing kbs from other players. Picking the right timing to deliver the final blow doesn't actually imply much playing skills.

3. "Players with a high renown per kill rate rock". Renown per kill doesn't mean anything at all. The easiest way to get a huge rate is to prefer doing quests to actually pvp-ing. Therefore, if a person earns 10,000 renown questing and then gets 100 points for a kill, then his ratio will be 10,100 to 1. And some people are seriously discussing who has a 15 to 1 and who has 40 to 1 ration and making conclusions about who is the better player!

4. "I can beat you in a 1 vs 1, thus I am a better player". The Moors is about teamwork and open field pvp. It is not a duel arena. Each class performs better against some of the other classes and worse against the rest. Also, people are not supposed to use builds that are optimized for spars. If your main goal is to perform well in big fights, then why trait for 1 vs 1? Another problem is gear. Sometimes the odds are huge.

5. "He blew this and that, what a disgrace". Making up rules is a lame excuse. Of course, most of us dislike broken OP classes and players who purchase a lot of items from the store. However, it it ridiculous how some people make up rules along the way: you can't use this, can't use that and so on. Sometimes I am not even sure if auto-attacks are allowed. And if one doesn't even use pretty much anything, others can still gank him for being OP. For me the solution was to become more tolerant and face the reality: each person has his own playing style, and, no matter how irritating it seems to you, you can't make them play in a different way. If they want to pay to win, it's fine. They want to zerg - ok. And so on.

6. "Soloing is cool, raiding up makes you a bad player". There are good and bad soloers and raiders. However, some of the most skillful people often have a large ego, so they don't want to share their glory and renown with anyone else. Nevertheless, it doesn't make anyone who raids up a raid baby. In fact, most players are just trying to have fun and to socialize, so one shouldn't blame them for this or harshly criticize their skills. After all, it's a game, not a job. Additionally, being good at team-work actually requires more skill than sticking to your own business and ignoring everyone else.

7. "All the freeps are OP, all the creeps are underpowered". It depends on the skills and amount of time invested into improving the character, and knowledge of one's class. Good players can beat bad players even when on their low-ranked creep toons or undergeared freeps. It is hard to make an accurate evaluation here, but if we take the average time it takes to get to 75 for a freep and have the same person play for this amount of time on the creep, I doubt the creep will be weaker. And getting the top endgame gear requires dedication and skills more or less equal to becoming a vet creep. A common argument is that freeps have the privilege of levelling comfortably in a pve zone, while creeps are always at risk. However, one can do quests in deserted areas and avoid getting ganked. Also, even if a creep does get killed while questing, then how is it different from a freep being killed by a mob in a pve zone? Just go on doing your stuff. It's not like your rating has been damaged for eternity. You will catch up later.

And what are your favorite myths about PVP?

I like this...nice thread.

Lol one of my favorite is the assumption that if you aren't rank 6 or higher, you suck. That is a terrible assumption. I have met many lower ranked characters that are actually pretty good.

Originally Posted by Otdanon

I love how some people make up indicators of skill in PVP and new rules. Some of the most common ones are:

1. "Rating matters". Players with lots of stars often act as if they had great skills, although usually those come from ganking weaker players and/or zerging in a raid. Those who have no stars say they are brave and always willing to fight till the end, while most of them are simply bad players who have no idea how to survive in the Moors. Also, luck plays a huge role. One can easily lose a few hundred points per day if he gets zerged by opponents' raids. Not to mention that sometimes people have fun charging into raids and thus lose a lot of rating points.

2. "If you have many kbs then you are a good pvp-er; if not, you are probably a raid-baby". The easiest way to get a lot of kbs is to 1 vs 1 all the time (or even farm one's own toons, if one can stoop as low as to do it). Therefore, I laugh at guys who stick their chests out for having a lot of kbs, while most of the "achievement" usually comes from beating low-rank and undergeared opponents one on one. Or, another scenario, ganking 1 vs 1/stealing kbs from other players. Picking the right timing to deliver the final blow doesn't actually imply much playing skills.

3. "Players with a high renown per kill rate rock". Renown per kill doesn't mean anything at all. The easiest way to get a huge rate is to prefer doing quests to actually pvp-ing. Therefore, if a person earns 10,000 renown questing and then gets 100 points for a kill, then his ratio will be 10,100 to 1. And some people are seriously discussing who has a 15 to 1 and who has 40 to 1 ration and making conclusions about who is the better player!

4. "I can beat you in a 1 vs 1, thus I am a better player". The Moors is about teamwork and open field pvp. It is not a duel arena. Each class performs better against some of the other classes and worse against the rest. Also, people are not supposed to use builds that are optimized for spars. If your main goal is to perform well in big fights, then why trait for 1 vs 1? Another problem is gear. Sometimes the odds are huge.

5. "He blew this and that, what a disgrace". Making up rules is a lame excuse. Of course, most of us dislike broken OP classes and players who purchase a lot of items from the store. However, it it ridiculous how some people make up rules along the way: you can't use this, can't use that and so on. Sometimes I am not even sure if auto-attacks are allowed. And if one doesn't even use pretty much anything, others can still gank him for being OP. For me the solution was to become more tolerant and face the reality: each person has his own playing style, and, no matter how irritating it seems to you, you can't make them play in a different way. If they want to pay to win, it's fine. They want to zerg - ok. And so on.

6. "Soloing is cool, raiding up makes you a bad player". There are good and bad soloers and raiders. However, some of the most skillful people often have a large ego, so they don't want to share their glory and renown with anyone else. Nevertheless, it doesn't make anyone who raids up a raid baby. In fact, most players are just trying to have fun and to socialize, so one shouldn't blame them for this or harshly criticize their skills. After all, it's a game, not a job. Additionally, being good at team-work actually requires more skill than sticking to your own business and ignoring everyone else.

7. "All the freeps are OP, all the creeps are underpowered". It depends on the skills and amount of time invested into improving the character, and knowledge of one's class. Good players can beat bad players even when on their low-ranked creep toons or undergeared freeps. It is hard to make an accurate evaluation here, but if we take the average time it takes to get to 75 for a freep and have the same person play for this amount of time on the creep, I doubt the creep will be weaker. And getting the top endgame gear requires dedication and skills more or less equal to becoming a vet creep. A common argument is that freeps have the privilege of levelling comfortably in a pve zone, while creeps are always at risk. However, one can do quests in deserted areas and avoid getting ganked. Also, even if a creep does get killed while questing, then how is it different from a freep being killed by a mob in a pve zone? Just go on doing your stuff. It's not like your rating has been damaged for eternity. You will catch up later.

And what are your favorite myths about PVP?

Your thing about Points Per Kill...You're forgetting the people who played the game before pve to rank was introduced...like me.

favorite myth: pvmp is balanced

Originally Posted by Otdanon

I love how some people make up indicators of skill in PVP and new rules. Some of the most common ones are:

<snip>
7. "All the freeps are OP, all the creeps are underpowered". It depends on the skills and amount of time invested into improving the character, and knowledge of one's class. Good players can beat bad players even when on their low-ranked creep toons or undergeared freeps. It is hard to make an accurate evaluation here, but if we take the average time it takes to get to 75 for a freep and have the same person play for this amount of time on the creep, I doubt the creep will be weaker. And getting the top endgame gear requires dedication and skills more or less equal to becoming a vet creep. A common argument is that freeps have the privilege of levelling comfortably in a pve zone, while creeps are always at risk. However, one can do quests in deserted areas and avoid getting ganked. Also, even if a creep does get killed while questing, then how is it different from a freep being killed by a mob in a pve zone? Just go on doing your stuff. It's not like your rating has been damaged for eternity. You will catch up later.

And what are your favorite myths about PVP?

Well said. I agree with everything but 7, above. While technically true, when stated as "All the freeps," it's a bit of a straw man. While you are completely correct that a well played "weak" character can usually beat a poorly played "strong" character, the difference shows up when the players are of comparable skill and experience with their characters. In that case, the Freeps appear to have a fairly substantial advantage.

I'd also say it takes less time to level up to cap and get good (if not absolute top end) gear for a freep than it does to rank up a creep to, say, rank 9 or 10 - where you are roughly an even match for a reasonably well geared freep. There's also the matter of 'variety' on Freepside for leveling and advancing. There's just so much more content. Which, of course, is what LoTRO is about in the first place.

As for myths . . . I think you pretty much got them all. Well done.

Nice Thread
Reputation +

Mhm.

+rep.

Originally Posted by Otdanon

And what are your favorite myths about PVP?

A new PvP map will be released with the next patch or expension. Its 5 years old now.

Myth 8 : Purebloodnakh can be defeated whilst in Flayer Mode

Originally Posted by l4j

I'd also say it takes less time to level up to cap and get good (if not absolute top end) gear for a freep than it does to rank up a creep to, say, rank 9 or 10 - where you are roughly an even match for a reasonably well geared freep. There's also the matter of 'variety' on Freepside for leveling and advancing. There's just so much more content. Which, of course, is what LoTRO is about in the first place.

I am going to have to respectfully disagree here... This vastly depends on who you are talking about, both taking into account player time spent and player skill. So let's say, on average, that someone starts from scratch on a freep. Leveling to 75 if they have never done the content before, could take 3-5 weeks depending on the amount of time they spend per day. In that time alone, any creep with half a brain should be able to reach rank 6 or 7 . After the freep hits 75, he still lacks any remotely decent gear. Assuming that he reached max reputation before he hit 75, he should be able to get into a dragon run fairly easily. Then you must also take into account that he may or may not win rolls on the items, but let's just say that he gets lucky and earns head and shoulders of the dragon set first time. That is 2/6 for an armor set that is outdated for pvp at this point in time.

After that, he must repeat this run weekly, usually several weeks in a row to get the dragon cloak. During this time they must also be doing bi-weekly foundry runs and depending on the player gearing up for ToO for T2 gear. Overall this entire process of getting a full set of Tower gear could take from 2-3 weeks (if you are lucky), to 6-7 weeks if you are unlucky on loot rolls.

During this extra period of time a creep should be able to reach rank 8, by which time they are familiar with how their class works in pvp and know what they are doing.

After a freep gets their end game gear, they head out in the moors, not having a clue how to play their class in a pvp situation. However, after another couple of weeks they get the hang of it, and then are competent in the moors. How often do you see a rank 0 freep competing on an even playing field with others? By this time, some creeps would have been able to hit rank 9, others still at rank 8.

Repeat the process with two players who have been playing the game for an extended period of time and you will find that the results are not very much different, just at a slightly faster pace.

Does this mean that freeps should be overpowered? No.

Does this mean that creeps have it easier? No.

To be honest, I think the whole balance for PvMP is based off of rank 15 creeps, which are generally used in the test servers... Because of this, I don't think that there is going to be visible balance across the boards for a very long time...

Originally Posted by Dontdazemebro

After the freep hits 75, he still lacks any remotely decent gear. Assuming that he reached max reputation before he hit 75, he should be able to get into a dragon run fairly easily. Then you must also take into account that he may or may not win rolls on the items, but let's just say that he gets lucky and earns head and shoulders of the dragon set first time. That is 2/6 for an armor set that is outdated for pvp at this point in time.

After that, he must repeat this run weekly, usually several weeks in a row to get the dragon cloak. During this time they must also be doing bi-weekly foundry runs and depending on the player gearing up for ToO for T2 gear. Overall this entire process of getting a full set of Tower gear could take from 2-3 weeks (if you are lucky), to 6-7 weeks if you are unlucky on loot rolls.

Anyone that can A. Read, B. talk to other PvP'ers will realize that the dragon cloak is good for PvE. Sarchol,(sp?) from T2 Pits is easier and IMO better to acquire for PvP. 1 in 3 chance, assuming no one has it. No reason to grind draig.

Lol, why would anyone worry about a T2 ToO build when discussing PvP? Do the ToO pieces have audacity on them? Missed that update. Loot rolls and tower gear... I guess you mean jewelry? Plenty of other options that are in the same ball park that can be found on the AH, or crafted by said player themselves.

Originally Posted by Dontdazemebro

During this extra period of time a creep should be able to reach rank 8, by which time they are familiar with how their class works in pvp and know what they are doing.

After a freep gets their end game gear, they head out in the moors, not having a clue how to play their class in a pvp situation. However, after another couple of weeks they get the hang of it, and then are competent in the moors. How often do you see a rank 0 freep competing on an even playing field with others? By this time, some creeps would have been able to hit rank 9, others still at rank 8.

Repeat the process with two players who have been playing the game for an extended period of time and you will find that the results are not very much different, just at a slightly faster pace.

I have a R11 Reaver. I have invested a significant amount more time on him than my Captain, Champ, Rk, or Guard. My freeps are all lower ranks, and if I could fight my Reaver with each of my freeps, I like my freep classes to win 90% of the time. The ceiling on creeps is so low, its ridiculous. I could grind hundreds more hours on my reaver and it wouldn't change anything, once a freep hits an above average tier there is very little I can do to change the outcome of a fight unless they make a mistake or voluntarily gimp themselves. Or worse, Turbine artificially shifts balance in another direction.

My favorite PvP myths?

9.) Freeps/Creeps who haven't significantly played the opposing side think they know what it is like. IMO ranking a creep was one of the worst gaming experiences I've ever had and I don't wish it on anyone, especially now unless you got a good group willing to do the creep grind with ya. Freep side from scratch is not fast but when I started I played for the story and experience, both are severely limited on creepside. At least I could go at my own pace without worrying about other players interfering.

10.) Things done in PvE Land/ Outside the Moors/ against NPCs justify imbalances while playing against other players. This is the only game where I have come across such ludicrous justifications.

Originally Posted by apb8808

My favorite PvP myths?

9.) Freeps/Creeps who haven't significantly played the opposing side think they know what it is like. IMO ranking a creep was one of the worst gaming experiences I've ever had and I don't wish it on anyone, especially now unless you got a good group willing to do the creep grind with ya. Freep side from scratch is not fast but when I started I played for the story and experience, both are severely limited on creepside. At least I could go at my own pace without worrying about other players interfering.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to apb8808 again.

10. Creeps/Freeps always hide in NPCs or zerg etc.. Our side never does that.

Fact: Both sides do the things that they are complaining about the other side doing (for the most part).

Originally Posted by Words n stuff

You must spread some reputation around before giving it to Gundamyr again.

Words n stuff.

Originally Posted by Otdanon

4. "I can beat you in a 1 vs 1, thus I am a better player". The Moors is about teamwork and open field pvp. It is not a duel arena.

You know what I hate? When people tell me or someone else where to play. I pay to play this game, and therefore have just as much right to play where I want and how I want.

Another myth about PvP? That it's specifically designed for raiding/grouping. PvP is what I want, and how I want it. If I want it to be about 1v1s, then it will be. If I want it to be about zerging, then it will be.

Originally Posted by Otdanon

If your main goal is to perform well in big fights, then why trait for 1 vs 1?

If you mainly raid up for "big fights", then I suggest you trait to be a well-rounded player. That means that you're effective in a group situation while still being able to hold your own.

I solo and hardly ever group, and I still am a part of "big fights". You don't need to be raided up or whatever just to participate in the action.

Another myth about PvP? That if you're going to be raiding 24/7, you should trait as such. Guess how many raid-regular hunters I have caught on their way back from the rez who couldn't defend themselves because they were traited yellow for their raid?

If you honestly can justify never having to trait for self-defense and entirely relying on your raid/group to help you, then I shouldn't be seeing QQ coming from people who I caught away from their raids.

Originally Posted by Otdanon

And what are your favorite myths about PVP?

That rank equates to skill.
That gear equates to skill.
That, since 1v1ers are in the minority, they can be bullied into a certain zone and told where to play.
That being in a group means you have no idea what you're doing.
That hunters can't 1v1.
That it's completely centered around raids.
That, since you play a warg or burg, you're a ganker/farmer.
That prefering to solo over group means you are selfish, elitist, and you don't know teamwork.

Originally Posted by astalyn

<snip>

Another myth about PvP? That it's specifically designed for raiding/grouping. PvP is what I want, and how I want it. If I want it to be about 1v1s, then it will be. If I want it to be about zerging, then it will be.

<snip>

That rank equates to skill.
That gear equates to skill.
That, since 1v1ers are in the minority, they can be bullied into a certain zone and told where to play.
That being in a group means you have no idea what you're doing.
That hunters can't 1v1.
That it's completely centered around raids.
That, since you play a warg or burg, you're a ganker/farmer.
That prefering to solo over group means you are selfish, elitist, and you don't know teamwork.

With all due respect, while I agree with you on it is what you make it, from what I can tell, mechanically it was originally designed around Creeps, at least, running in groups to counter the higher single-character power level of the Freeps. So, technically, it appears that it is designed for grouping.

But that's just one part of one point.

The rest of the post, I completely agree.

Originally Posted by l4j

With all due respect, while I agree with you on it is what you make it, from what I can tell, mechanically it was originally designed around Creeps, at least, running in groups to counter the higher single-character power level of the Freeps. So, technically, it appears that it is designed for grouping.

But that's just one part of one point.

The rest of the post, I completely agree.

Kelsan actually said his changes were partly aimed to move the moors away from that design.

Hasn't worked because creeps haven't kept up with freep advancement.

Originally Posted by Untg99

Kelsan actually said his changes were partly aimed to move the moors away from that design.

Hasn't worked because creeps haven't kept up with freep advancement.

Ah, well, then at least we know. Would have been nice.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by Untg99

Kelsan actually said his changes were partly aimed to move the moors away from that design.

Hasn't worked because creeps haven't kept up with freep advancement.

Now that we have audacity for the armour he just need to add a similar mechanism to Legendary weapons (pwnacity) where you need to grind for a Moors only Legendary weapon that is better than 1st age.

Later on just add audacity to jewelry and you only need to PVE/PVE in the moors in order to do PVP.