expensive expansion since tax not included + europe is more expensive
Why do we have to pay extra taxes after we made the order for RoR? In every expansion the tax was included, now there's 6-7 dollars/euro's on top of it. So the expansion is like 15-20% more expensive as all previous expansions aswell. Nowhere is stated the tax is excluded either untill ur ready to actualy make the payment. Next to that for Europe ur charging way to high. The dollar exchange won't cosst u like 7 euro's for 46 dollars, but thats what Europe is extra charged.
I'm a lifer and purchased all expansions since i think its not bad to pay for a game u like (afterall for work i like to get paid aswell!), but cause of things like this im considering to keep all my money in my pockets, thank you for the 500TP a month and play the game as a VIP forever for free.
Re: expensive expansion since tax not included + europe is more expensive
I'm guessing that you would have purchased previous expansions fropm Codemasters.
In Europe it is normal (and I think legally required) for prices to be quoted including all taxes.
This time you are buying from Turbine.
In the US it is normal practice for price to be quoted without including taxes.
Edit: Just checked and I was incorrect in saying this - "You can elect to pay in US$ on the Digital River website, and if you do I do not believe you will be charged any taxes."
Re: expensive expansion since tax not included + europe is more expensive
u are billed extra tax if u pay in usd, 45,99 total pricing for base edition. Last year i bought RoI as prepurchase through digitalriver aswell and we had no tax suprise when we made the payment, just checked paypal for that, paid like 21 euro's for the expansion then which was like 30 dollars at the time.
Re: expensive expansion since tax not included + europe is more expensive
The RoR Expac has actually INCREASED in price since they announced the launch.... The Conversion anyway
On the day they announced, I checked the store for how much I need to save.
Cost = $69.99 .. conversion = £45.50 .... according to Store Page .. no mention of Taxes
Re: expensive expansion since tax not included + europe is more expensive
Dollar is strong these days. That's another reason I didn't buy Legendary edition..
As a EU player if you pay in $
$70 + about 15% tax = 80$ about 65€
if you pay in Euros it's 65€ (tax included).
So it doesn't matter if you buy in € or $. BUT it could matter if you live in country with some local currency then you can choose currency (€ or $ or £) with the best ratio.. it won't be so much anyway..
And regarding EU economy crisis I wouldn't be surprised if the ratio will be even worse with € in future ..
Last edited by shann81; Jun 15 2012 at 05:45 AM.
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Re: expensive expansion since tax not included + europe is more expensive
Originally Posted by mjk47
You can elect to pay in US$ on the Digital River website, and if you do I do not believe you will be charged any taxes.
If they do that Digital River are breaking EU regulations and are liable.
You may argue they're US company, but the EU requires organisations selling to EU residents to levy VAT, the rate of which is determined by where the seller deems themselves to be: messy but typical of the EU.
Thing is, if DR refuse and there's no direct legal sanction that the EU can impose, then the EU authorities have ways of ensuring any bank with an EU presence will stop dealing with DR.
Originally Posted by Malindruel
Even DR cant get the conversion right
There is no 'right' conversion rate, beyond the 'official' one quoted by central banks, but few if any commercial banks use that rate, which also of course varies minute by minute sometimes, and in the current economic chaos this is happening wildly and frequently.
Re: expensive expansion since tax not included + europe is more expensive
Originally Posted by shann81
Dollar is strong these days. That's another reason I didn't buy Legendary edition..
As a EU player if you pay in $
$70 + about 15% tax = 80$ about 65€
if you pay in Euros it's 65€ (tax included).
So it doesn't matter if you buy in € or $. BUT it could matter if you live in country with some local currency then you can choose currency (€ or $ or £) with the best ratio..
And regarding EU economy crisis I wouldn't be surprised if the ratio will be even worse in future for european countries..
The taxrate is higher and thats something i can imagine, 3,54 dollars for i.e. New York vs 6,00 dollars from Holland, but....for the conversion i wish u were right, however u arent. We are far cheaper of paying in dollars as we are in euro's even if we take conversion payment for ourt own bill. Go have a look yourself...In previous post i showed what happened, or maybe in holland we have a different euro currency than in Spain or Norway¿....sigh...
[s]and leave the economics out of it pls or did u forget where it all started? nah lets not go that way....[/s]
Re: expensive expansion since tax not included + europe is more expensive
Originally Posted by Gewoonikke
just checked, from holland we pay 55,13 dollars if we pay in euro's, if we select dollars its 45,99, almost 10 dollars difference...
I'm not sure.. but what exactly are you buying? As I stated € prices include tax. Your $ don't.. So you should add about 15% to 45,99$ = 53$. Did you try to finish the transaction? On some final form you should see final cost including tax..
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Re: expensive expansion since tax not included + europe is more expensive
Originally Posted by shann81
I'm not sure.. but what exactly are you buying? As I stated € prices include tax. Your $ don't.. So you should add about 15% to 45,99$ = 53$. Did you try to finish the transaction? On some final form you should see final cost including tax..
Erhm....the 55 dollars is a conversion from what they ask in euro's (43,69), the 45,99 is what they ask when i pay in dollars directly, both have their tax included in the example. Oh and its for the base exp.
Re: expensive expansion since tax not included + europe is more expensive
Originally Posted by Gewoonikke
Erhm....the 55 dollars is a conversion from what they ask in euro's (43,69), the 45,99 is what they ask when i pay in dollars directly, both have their tax included in the example. Oh and its for the base exp.
Really? I bought it for 46$ as well..
I'm not sure about € variant now..
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Re: expensive expansion since tax not included + europe is more expensive
Originally Posted by Kerin_Eldar
If they do that Digital River are breaking EU regulations and are liable.
You may argue they're US company, but the EU requires organisations selling to EU residents to levy VAT, the rate of which is determined by where the seller deems themselves to be: messy but typical of the EU.
Thing is, if DR refuse and there's no direct legal sanction that the EU can impose, then the EU authorities have ways of ensuring any bank with an EU presence will stop dealing with DR.
Just checked, and I was incorrect. Amended my earlier post.
Re: expensive expansion since tax not included + europe is more expensive
None of these numbers make any sense to me whatsoever, since the VAT rate in most of western europe is around the 20% mark (UK = 20%, Holland = 19% are the ones which I've seen mentioned). Where does the 15% tax come from?!
Ingaras, lvl 75 Elven Hunter; and others... The Western Alliance, Laurelin "The priority now is the store not the game. The store no longer supports the game, its the other way around."
Re: expensive expansion since tax not included + europe is more expensive
Originally Posted by Ingaras
None of these numbers make any sense to me whatsoever, since the VAT rate in most of western europe is around the 20% mark (UK = 20%, Holland = 19% are the ones which I've seen mentioned). Where does the 15% tax come from?!
as far as tax go its simple like this:
Originally Posted by Kerin_Eldar
If they do that Digital River are breaking EU regulations and are liable.
You may argue they're US company, but the EU requires organisations selling to EU residents to levy VAT, the rate of which is determined by where the seller deems themselves to be: messy but typical of the EU.
If not stated otherwise in Europe a given price is tax included
To keep it simple for u without to many numbers....40 dollars isnt 38 euro (both tax not included!), but when we purchase they bill u the 38instead of 31,6.... 6 euro exchange cosst is high on that amount of money.
funnier is that if i pay in dollars which means for me 45,99 tax included for the base edition is even cheaper then paying the 38 euro's for the base with tax still to be charged. Would mean 36,22...
Last edited by Gewoonikke; Jun 15 2012 at 01:29 PM.
Re: expensive expansion since tax not included + europe is more expensive
Originally Posted by Gewoonikke
as far as tax go its simple like this
I know... except that a) as far as I know they're supposed to charge the rate based on the customer's address and b) even if it's Turbine's location that counts, all EU-affairs of Turbine seem to use the UK as entrypoint and they have a UK VAT registration (just look at the EULA etc.)
So the tax should be 20%, not 15%. Unless they're charging some faulty US-based-rate, but then 15% seems exceptionally high (correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe most states don't go above 10% or so on sales tax).
Ingaras, lvl 75 Elven Hunter; and others... The Western Alliance, Laurelin "The priority now is the store not the game. The store no longer supports the game, its the other way around."
Re: expensive expansion since tax not included + europe is more expensive
allright...the difference in tax isn't what this topic is about. The wrong conversion euro's vs dollars is + not mentioning anything about extra tax charged when u like to pay is what thios topic is about.
If its 15% tax in US and 20% in Europe then that's fine with me, but dont loose the context of what things realy are about here...
Re: expensive expansion since tax not included + europe is more expensive
Why i must now pay almost 81 $ for Legendary ed? RoI cost me only 50$(legenadry 2- dont haved more then 51$ on card , im sure for 100%).
This 15-20% more its revenge for community protest ? We dont win, we lose again.
Re: expensive expansion since tax not included + europe is more expensive
Can anybody of first-day purchasers show here his numbers? They are in the mail.
Which way did you bought it? Card, Paypal..
Is there tax component?
So if we have to pay tax now why first-day purchasers hadn´t to?
I found this text on turbine store FAQ: Do I have to pay sales tax?
Depending on the order, sales tax may be calculated and charged. Any sales tax charged will be indicated once your billing and/or shipping address have been entered during checkout.
Pursuant to the Digital VAT Directive, European customers will be charged a 15% value-added tax (VAT) on all downloaded digital products and services including software.
Tax-exempt entities can request a refund of the tax paid on an order. We will need a copy of your tax-exempt certificate and the billing or shipping address on the order must match the address on the certificate. Please include your order number or a copy of your receipt or invoice. You can fax a copy of your certificate, with order number or invoice to 952-253-8760.
Last edited by shann81; Jun 16 2012 at 05:56 AM.
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Re: expensive expansion since tax not included + europe is more expensive
Originally Posted by shann81
Can anybody of first-day purchasers show here his numbers? They are in the mail.
Which way did you bought it? Card, Paypal..
Is there tax component?
lor=#ff3333]Digital VAT Directive[/color][/b], European customers will be charged a 15% value-added tax (VAT) on all downloaded digital products and services including software.
Omschrijving Prijs per eenheid Hvh Bedrag
DRI*Turbine Games order xxxxx
€56,06 EUR 1 €56,06 EUR
Subtotaal €56,06 EUR
Totaal €56,06 EUR
Betaling €56,06 EUR
Betaling overgemaakt aan atlanticpaypaleuSARLcs@digital river.com
--
legendary edition this is
Hope it makes sense lol
Last edited by Cedeline; Jun 16 2012 at 05:54 AM.
........I'm not online....it's just your imagination.........
Re: expensive expansion since tax not included + europe is more expensive
My guess is that VAT is charged according the payment method.. If card is bound to EU country then there is some basic 15% VAT. Payments via PayPal are not localized then no VAT? Can anybody approve that? But now I wonder where my VAT goes exactly since Czech rep. VAT is about 20%..
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Re: expensive expansion since tax not included + europe is more expensive
Hold ur horses lol, the VAT is a minor thing, lat year it was included though so thats why i ask, but..... Main question is why at day 1 we pay like 31-32 euro's for the base exp and now suddenly its almost 38 euro's. Again...exchange cosst aren't 6-7 euro's on an amount of 40 dollars/32 euro's.
To take it 1 step further, if we pay in dollars with tax included we even pay less as we do pay in eruo's with tax not even included yet. Thats just to weird...
Re: expensive expansion since tax not included + europe is more expensive
Originally Posted by shann81
I found this text on turbine store FAQ
Finally figured that one out... The quoted FAQ appears in virtually every Digital River store (just Google the text) and Digital River is registered in Luxembourg, which has a 15% VAT rate. And Wikipedia states (emphasis mine)
Following changes introduced on 1 July 2003, non-EU businesses providing digital electronic commerce and entertainment products and services to EU countries are also required to register with the tax authorities in the relevant EU member state, and to collect VAT on their sales at the appropriate rate, according to the location of the purchaser. Alternatively, under a special scheme, non-EU businesses may register and account for VAT on only one EU member state. This produces distortions as the rate of VAT is that of the member state of registration, not where the customer is located
As for why it changed: I believe there was some way that the store would not add the VAT charge before (using English language and USD as payment or something), they probably fixed that. €38 seems about right, since it's $40 before taxes = €32 + 15% VAT = €37 with €1-2 exchange costs.
Ingaras, lvl 75 Elven Hunter; and others... The Western Alliance, Laurelin "The priority now is the store not the game. The store no longer supports the game, its the other way around."
Re: expensive expansion since tax not included + europe is more expensive
Originally Posted by Ingaras
Finally figured that one out... The quoted FAQ appears in virtually every Digital River store (just Google the text) and Digital River is registered in Luxembourg, which has a 15% VAT rate. And Wikipedia states (emphasis mine)
As for why it changed: I believe there was some way that the store would not add the VAT charge before (using English language and USD as payment or something), they probably fixed that. €38 seems about right, since it's $40 before taxes = €32 + 15% VAT = €37 with €1-2 exchange costs.
Yeah but now comes....if we like to pay in euro's we get charged 38 euro's without tax, than u like to pay and u get 15% tax over the 38 euro's, making it somewhere like 42-43 euro's total, while in dollars tax included the base is 45,99 which is like 37 euro's.
38 euro's total, would make it such a small difference i wouldnt have opened this topic for
Last edited by Gewoonikke; Jun 16 2012 at 07:47 AM.
Re: expensive expansion since tax not included + europe is more expensive
Originally Posted by Gewoonikke
Yeah but now comes....if we like to pay in euro's we get charged 38 euro's without tax, than u like to pay and u get 15% tax over the 38 euro's, making it somewhere like 42-43 euro's total, while in dollars tax included the base is 45,99 which is like 37 euro's.
38 euro's total, would make it such a small difference i wouldnt have opened this topic for
Ah, I suspect that's a bug in the system! They add the 15% twice, once in the base €-price, as is customary in the EU, and once at final sale point as they're used to on the other side of the Atlantic... probably fixed it from NOT charging VAT on USD prices to DOUBLE charging it on the €-prices .
Ingaras, lvl 75 Elven Hunter; and others... The Western Alliance, Laurelin "The priority now is the store not the game. The store no longer supports the game, its the other way around."
Re: expensive expansion since tax not included + europe is more expensive
Originally Posted by Ingaras
Ah, I suspect that's a bug in the system! They add the 15% twice, once in the base €-price, as is customary in the EU, and once at final sale point as they're used to on the other side of the Atlantic... probably fixed it from NOT charging VAT on USD prices to DOUBLE charging it on the €-prices .
That would make sense indeed and if so i hope they fix this rather yesterday as tomorrow
Re: expensive expansion since tax not included + europe is more expensive
Originally Posted by Ingaras
Ah, I suspect that's a bug in the system! They add the 15% twice, once in the base €-price, as is customary in the EU, and once at final sale point as they're used to on the other side of the Atlantic... probably fixed it from NOT charging VAT on USD prices to DOUBLE charging it on the €-prices .
+rep great job..
- rep for Turbine
Turbine got some award for RoI last year..
This year they should get something like ¨The most messed up expansion pre-order of 2012¨
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Re: expensive expansion since tax not included + europe is more expensive
Dear support,
Opened a topic about the strange price difference etween paying in euro's or dollars. All is here: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...more-expensive
At page 2 a bit down ingaras stated a thing that would make sense what happens and hereby i like confirmation about this. As hings are now for RoR base in euro's we need to pay around 43-44 euro's while in dollars it is like 46. The 46 dollar would be like 37-38 euro's, slightly cheaper then what the base edition is charged now in euro's without tax added. Could it be that there's a bug in teh tax system and that in euro's we should pay only the 38 euro's instead of the 43?
Looking forward to your awnser and with kind regards,
Re: expensive expansion since tax not included + europe is more expensive
remember if you are using the web to get your conversion rates that what is show in almost all cases is the midmarkey rate. You will never get that rate anywhere as its the average between buying and selling.
AW: expensive expansion since tax not included + europe is more expensive
The solution to your problem is easy, and has been given several times before in the thread.
If you put the dollar item in your cart but pay in €, for example via paypal, it will convert the price to Euro but still add VAT based on the location you name (the same is true btw if you pay in Dollars, as VAT in the USA is dependent on state)
If you however switch the shop page to a different currency (Pounds/Euro) and put that in the cart, the price will already have VAT included. You do this by clicking on the national flags at the top right.
The difference results from the different price label practise on the continents; in the USA it is usual to give a price without VAT, which will get added at checkout. In Europe it is customary or even required by law to include all secondary cost in priuce labels, so VAT is already included in these prices.
If someone paid €56.06 for the legendary edition, which is $70/1.25 (the rough current $-€ conversion rate), it usually means they shopped the international (dollar) version and did not correctly state their location and might technically be committing tax fraud. The counter-check:
$70 x (unified VAT=15%) 1.15 = $80.5
$80.5 / (rough currency conversion rate of) 1.25 = €64.4
Store price of the direct Euro version: €64,99
Difference: ~ €0.60 (within acceptable conversion and pricing limits, we Euros have been milked worse by US companies)
In short: the price is dependent on user input and not a conspiracy by Turbine. I say again: the difference comes from which currency version ($ or € or british Pounds) you originally put in your cart.
Last edited by Vandervahn; Jun 17 2012 at 06:17 AM.
Re: expensive expansion since tax not included + europe is more expensive
The shop system was buggy before, allowing you to buy tax-free, now they seem to have changed it, but it's still buggy as you now can pay double-taxes if you mess about with language and currencies.
Re: expensive expansion since tax not included + europe is more expensive
Indeed, I think the taxes must be quoted with the purchase because technically as you are selling products to EU citizens, you are required to conform with EU standards. You can't sell something and not comply with the EU's trade regulations.
Re: AW: expensive expansion since tax not included + europe is more expensive
Originally Posted by Vandervahn
If you put the dollar item in your cart but pay in €, for example via paypal, it will convert the price to Euro but still add VAT based on the location you name (the same is true btw if you pay in Dollars, as VAT in the USA is dependent on state)
If you however switch the shop page to a different currency (Pounds/Euro) and put that in the cart, the price will already have VAT included. You do this by clicking on the national flags at the top right.
The difference results from the different price label practise on the continents; in the USA it is usual to give a price without VAT, which will get added at checkout. In Europe it is customary or even required by law to include all secondary cost in priuce labels, so VAT is already included in these prices.
If someone paid €56.06 for the legendary edition, which is $70/1.25 (the rough current $-€ conversion rate), it usually means they shopped the international (dollar) version and did not correctly state their location and might technically be committing tax fraud. The counter-check:
$70 x (unified VAT=15%) 1.15 = $80.5
$80.5 / (rough currency conversion rate of) 1.25 = €64.4
Store price of the direct Euro version: €64,99
Difference: ~ €0.60 (within acceptable conversion and pricing limits, we Euros have been milked worse by US companies)
What goes wrong is that if you currently select Euros, it can add ANOTHER 15% on top of the € 64.99 at the payment page (like you would do for sales tax in the US).
Ingaras, lvl 75 Elven Hunter; and others... The Western Alliance, Laurelin "The priority now is the store not the game. The store no longer supports the game, its the other way around."
Re: expensive expansion since tax not included + europe is more expensive
Right,
So I was charged 7.50 usd in taxes as well.
But I live in Norway, and according to their own statement;
Originally Posted by Digital River Customer Service;
- Digital products sold into the European Union include a VAT (Tax)
charge of 15.0% for most countries. Orders billed to Switzerland are
subject to a 7.6% VAT while orders billed to Norway or South Africa are
charged a VAT of 0%. (NOTE: If your product is being delivered outside
of the EU, you will not be charged VAT once you have entered your
payment information.)
Of course, when I replied to their mail that, yes, I do in fact live in Norway and thus should have 0% VAT.
Digital River answered that "whops, we do not do customer service" and "talk to Turbine".
(As if their customer service department closed down for good this Saturday or something).
So what to do now? Whom can I talk to?
Do I have any recourse besides drowning in the mountain of Turbine tickets where they will spin the overcharge until I tire of it?
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