Agreed. We've already seen what Relentless Optimism does for our healing output, why not push that even further? I think this is a good approach to the SoW/Song-Bro problem.
That still doesn't address the problem that Song Bro SoW is completely useless for at least half (if not more) of the classes out there, especially when you can use Blade Bro to up the DPS to kill stuff faster, thus reducing the healing load by reducing the amount of damage received.
That still doesn't address the problem that Song Bro SoW is completely useless for at least half (if not more) of the classes out there, especially when you can use Blade Bro to up the DPS to kill stuff faster, thus reducing the healing load by reducing the amount of damage received.
I mean hell, you can't have one brother skill to rule them all. Blade-bro is great and I default to it. Best defense is a good offense, right? I don't see a thing wrong with that. EDIT: and I don't see the tragedy if a champ gets a buff to healing; the net result is similar. FB+Blade-bro = the whole fellowship's damage gets boosted + a little power + a piddly heal. FB+Song-Bro = the whole fellowship's healing gets boosted + power.
But sometimes you're going to have to eschew that bit of damage for more survivability. Thing we were discussing in another thread is we've that got two brother skills focused on staying alive (Shield and Song). They're gonna always be in competition with one another unless the devs change Song-bro To Arms and say "this is just a power restore skill now." Right now it seems like Shield is more powerful in that department.
So give them sub roles. Two healing toggles, different strengths. I'd like to see Shield-bro keep on being the premier Tank healer brother toggle that we have. I'd also like to see Song-bro break out of its power-restore niche and be our best brother toggle for AoE heals as well. It'd be cool to kinda balance the playing field for defensive brother toggles. Even +25% crit heal magnitude to the Song-brother (increasing heals from a 50% OGH, 25% chance to crit heal, +50% crit heal magnitude [legs and fate] healer by ~5%) wouldn't be OP. Better overall healing than Shield to the fellowship, less than Shield to the tank.
Last edited by Omen_Kaizer; Jun 22 2012 at 05:49 PM.
I mean hell, you can't have one brother skill to rule them all. Blade-bro is great and I default to it. Best defense is a good offense, right? I don't see a thing wrong with that. EDIT: and I don't see the tragedy if a champ gets a buff to healing; the net result is similar. FB+Blade-bro = the whole fellowship's damage gets boosted + a little power + a piddly heal. FB+Song-Bro = the whole fellowship's healing gets boosted + power.
But sometimes you're going to have to eschew that bit of damage for more survivability. Thing we were discussing in another thread is we've that got two brother skills focused on staying alive (Shield and Song). They're gonna always be in competition with one another unless the devs change Song-bro To Arms and say "this is just a power restore skill now." Right now it seems like Shield is more powerful in that department.
So give them sub roles. Two healing toggles, different strengths. I'd like to see Shield-bro keep on being the premier Tank healer brother toggle that we have. I'd also like to see Song-bro break out of its power-restore niche and be our best brother toggle for AoE heals as well. It'd be cool to kinda balance the playing field for defensive brother toggles. Even +25% crit heal magnitude to the Song-brother (increasing heals from a 50% OGH, 25% chance to crit heal, +50% crit heal magnitude [legs and fate] healer by ~5%) wouldn't be OP. Better overall healing than Shield to the fellowship, less than Shield to the tank.
Isn't that the same basic drum I've been beating for a while on the forums?
Isn't that the same basic drum I've been beating for a while on the forums?
Yeah man, this is your drum, I'm with you. Making Song-Bro more than a power restore with healing perks.
I just wanted to state that I don't having a heal buff on a champ thanks to FB is a big deal (addressed at you). Then I just started trying to sell to anyone reading the crit heal magnitude buff to Song-Bro SoW again. And to clarify, I'm talking about straight up replacing the -heal power cost thing.
Yeah man, this is your drum, I'm with you. Making Song-Bro more than a power restore with healing perks.
I just wanted to state that I don't having a heal buff on a champ thanks to FB is a big deal (addressed at you). Then I just started trying to sell to anyone reading the crit heal magnitude buff to Song-Bro SoW again. And to clarify, I'm talking about straight up replacing the -heal power cost thing.
Ah, gotcha.
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I would like them to swap the melee healing legacy from emblems to weapons in return for motivating speech. That would put MS off the buff stick and onto a swap emblem and give us more options on a soloing weapon. Perhaps I haven't fully considered the ramifications...
Edit: Maybe MS is the wrong one...the more I think about it. Maybe there is another legacy that would be better...not sure. There just seems to be less options and a more defined path depending on how many majors I get on a weapon or emblem. I suppose I need to think more about this.
I would like them to swap the melee healing legacy from emblems to weapons in return for motivating speech. That would put MS off the buff stick and onto a swap emblem and give us more options on a soloing weapon. Perhaps I haven't fully considered the ramifications...
Edit: Maybe MS is the wrong one...the more I think about it. Maybe there is another legacy that would be better...not sure. There just seems to be less options and a more defined path depending on how many majors I get on a weapon or emblem. I suppose I need to think more about this.
That would be a nice change, as it would allow us to build up more healing legacies. But I doubt they do it.
The devs seem to like limiting our healing-related legacies to our emblem for some reason. Though in theory it would make perfect sense for a "melee" healing legacy to be a on a melee weapon. So I'm with you on this.
I would like them to swap the melee healing legacy from emblems to weapons in return for motivating speech. That would put MS off the buff stick and onto a swap emblem and give us more options on a soloing weapon. Perhaps I haven't fully considered the ramifications...
Edit: Maybe MS is the wrong one...the more I think about it. Maybe there is another legacy that would be better...not sure. There just seems to be less options and a more defined path depending on how many majors I get on a weapon or emblem. I suppose I need to think more about this.
Personally, I'd rather have all four of the buff legacies rolled into the base skills, and then get four new legacies.
IMO we need more DPS and tanking focused legacies.
I also think captains should get more morale from each point of vitality.
The way I think about it is that Champs and Captains should get 4 points from each point if Guards and Wardens are getting 5 and everyone else 3. Either that OR...
Give us 5 points of power for every will point...or even more. Aren't Captains of strong will? Makes sense to me.
Last edited by Ardineck; Jun 25 2012 at 05:09 AM.
Reason: Fix power per point of will as pointed out in later post
I also think captains should get more morale from each point of vitality.
The way I think about it is that Champs and Captains should get 4 points from each point if Guards and Wardens are getting 5 and everyone else 3. Either that OR...
Give us 5 points of will for every will point...or even more. Aren't Captains of strong will? Makes sense to me.
I wouldn't mind the will change. My near total lack of out-of-combat power regen can be a nuisance sometimes. A larger power pool and more resistance couldn't hurt either. So it would be nice to turn my pathetic Will into x5
I also think captains should get more morale from each point of vitality.
The way I think about it is that Champs and Captains should get 4 points from each point if Guards and Wardens are getting 5 and everyone else 3.
Champs actually do get a big morale bonus in Glory stance that closes the gap between them and Guards/Wardens pretty effectively. Captains don't really have a tanking "stance", but putting something like that in a trait bonus or on the capstone would be appropriate. But it does seem like Captain tanks don't have as much of a problem with survivability as you might think, given the small morale pool compared to the 5xVit classes.
I would definitely be receptive to adding a vitality/morale bump in a trait line or something like you suggested. I don't have much problems with my morale, but if I have to start dropping vitality or might to get my icpr up more, I think I would want to sacrifice some of the pure morale I am getting which might then lead to problems with survivability. As it is now, the morale bubble bauble (sounds like a game from the arcade!) and last stand do a fine job in fights that don't last long. As soon as last stand gets close to running out that bubble turns into an extender. Still, if the fight drags on things get dicey. Adding straight morale won't necessarily help me survive better, so making it part of a tank spec seems to fit.
The more I think about the will thing though, the more I am loving that idea. Any real problems that I'm not thinking of? It's not like anyone is stacking it or it would make us unbalanced, would it?
You said five points of will per point of will - what stat were you referring to?
Personally I'd rather not return to having to deal with balancing might and will again. We don't need to iritate the tacticals by having all of us rolling on their gear instead of just the noobs.
Last edited by Almagnus1; Jun 25 2012 at 04:33 AM.
You said five points of will per point of will - what stat were you referring to?
Personally I'd rather not return to having to deal with balancing might and will again. We don't need to iritate the tacticals by having all of us rolling on their gear instead of just the noobs.
Oops. I meant power per point of will. No rebalance planned. It would bump all our power pools a tiny bit. I can't see anyone trying to stack will, but I guess someone would try to see how high they could get. That would be silly since we don't have any major stats tied there anymore.
Oops. I meant power per point of will. No rebalance planned. It would bump all our power pools a tiny bit. I can't see anyone trying to stack will, but I guess someone would try to see how high they could get. That would be silly since we don't have any major stats tied there anymore.
Yeah I agree. I don't think anyone would stack will after your proposed change either. I know I wouldn't.
It would just give me a nice little boost to my power, resistances, and out-of-combat ICPR... which, would be nice.
Oops. I meant power per point of will. No rebalance planned. It would bump all our power pools a tiny bit. I can't see anyone trying to stack will, but I guess someone would try to see how high they could get. That would be silly since we don't have any major stats tied there anymore.
Honestly, I'd rather have power costs adjusted instead. That'd definitely help LoM captains with power problems.
It's a nice buff. 250+ ICP is nothing to scoff at, and if a player is struggling with power it can make a real difference. All of our tactical buffs are nice, including this one.
But ty for proving my earlier point about how this buff is under-estimated and unfairly scoffed at by so many
I agree with you- when I play my minstrel and there's a cappy in the group, I'll take focus buff. The icpr is going all the time during combat. Where as crit buff only increases the chance of a critical heal by a small amount. I'd rather not have to worry so much about running out of power.
Would anyone want a hobbit for a herald? Just curious.
Carrottop (75 elf hunter), Flosiin (75 captain), Chambo(75 hobbit burglar), Flodoc (75 hobbit minstrel), Walwulfa (75 human guardian) and Widlow (55 human lore-master.)
Banners needs revamp as peeps already suggested
Heralds wow they sure needs some love
Muster self heal (maybe tweak that heal a bit upwards)
Brother skills needs a look at, many suggestions already
Make motivating speech a toggle skill like IDOME
I would also like
A non combat ress with decent cd
X-bow use (for pulling etc...) a captain should not have to use them silly throwing axes for ranged
-¤-¤-¤- Errare humanum est, ignoscere divinum est -¤-¤-¤-
There's lore reasons why Hobbits can't be captains.
You mean like in the Scouring of the Shire, where Tolkien explicitly describes Merry and Pippen as Captains? Nowhere in the lore does it say that Hobbits can't be Captains. Tolkien would never write such nonsense. It's absurd that any race wouldn't have military leaders. Turbine just pulled some baloney about the Rise of Men or something, and everybody acts like it makes sense.
I'm sure there are reasons that Captains are limited to Men, but it has nothing to do with lore.
I think they should make the Inspire trait applicable to all kinds of brothers. They should also make a new version of the Oathbreaker pet.
I also think the Tanking needs some rework. It's insanely hard to master on captain imo.
Also, rez legendary trait needs a better reason to be used over Idome, Fellowship-Brother and Capstone. And yeah, 4th legendary would be so epic, but thats a big change to request, not really expecting it lol.
And some new CC skill(s) would be nice, so captain would be Healer, DPS, Tank and CC ^^ There could be a CC-Brother or something, hehe
And maybe, DPS could be a bit higher, I'm pretty much fully geared with over 2500might and not even close to other classes dps :/
For Leader of Men, power issue is really a problem, or even when using Shield Brother, at least could reduce the power cost for its sub-skills i think.
I think there could be more ranged attacks, not sure about details on it.
would like OB SotD and FB to become normal skills.
About legacies, Healing from Strength of Will should not only affect Shield-brother but also other
Make zero cooldown for marks, without any traits its a mess that I need a trait that a base skill is usable in some situations.
Add an buff effect to each line in the 3rd or 4tn trait bonus , that is buffed when a mayor skill is used (red; dps/crit improve, blue: heal/power reg; yellow: reduced dmg/ressistance).
Move or add buff traits that increase dps, heal, survivability buffs to the corresponding line.
Add an non combat rezz.
Balance the dps/heal of all support classes.
Last edited by Thaodan; Jun 30 2012 at 08:53 AM.
Georg Schramm "...wir brauchen Idioten sonst frisst keiner Gammelfleisch!"
Make zero cooldown for marks, without any traits its a mess that I need a trait that a base skill is usable in some situations.
Add an buff effect to each line in the 3rd or 4tn trait bonus , that is buffed when a mayor skill is used (red; dps/crit improve, blue: heal/power reg; yellow: reduced dmg/ressistance).
Move or add buff traits that increase dps, heal, survivability buffs to the corresponding line.
Add an non combat rezz.
Balance the dps/heal of all support classes.
Thao, what is wrong with having to trait to reduce your mark CD? I don't see the problem with that.
I wouldn't mind seeing us have a non-combat raise though. So I'm with you on that. Or at least put our Escape from Darkness on a shorter cool-down or let it reset when out-of-combat. Something like that. I also think it'd be cool if Captains had a reraise effect where they could come back to life during combat if they were defeated.
I'm against your idea of balancing the dps/heal of all support classes. I like the mix of variety among support classes as is - and think it's cool how they all have their own strengths and weaknesses. The more individuality among classes the better - and I think it's good design how some have more of an edge on DPS while others excel more at healing.
Thao, what is wrong with having to trait to reduce your mark CD? I don't see the problem with that.
I wouldn't mind seeing us have a non-combat raise though. So I'm with you on that. Or at least put our Escape from Darkness on a shorter cool-down or let it reset when out-of-combat. Something like that. I also think it'd be cool if Captains had a reraise effect where they could come back to life during combat if they were defeated.
I'm against your idea of balancing the dps/heal of all support classes. I like the mix of variety among support classes as is - and think it's cool how they all have their own strengths and weaknesses. The more individuality among classes the better - and I think it's good design how some have more of an edge on DPS while others excel more at healing.
Whats wrong with the CD? That the marks are only useable with 2 yellow traits equiped in some situations, to compare that buglar marks has only 5 seconds cooldown.
You're against the dps/heal balance of all support classes and you like the mix of all supports classes as is? Atm all suppport classes are unbalanced in heal, dps and support. For instance the buglar he is a support class but he does a huge amount of single target dps that some of my kin mates, say he's a dps class.
Georg Schramm "...wir brauchen Idioten sonst frisst keiner Gammelfleisch!"
Whats wrong with the CD? That the marks are only useable with 2 yellow traits equiped in some situations, to compare that buglar marks has only 5 seconds cooldown.
You're against the dps/heal balance of all support classes and you like the mix of all supports classes as is? Atm all suppport classes are unbalanced in heal, dps and support. For instance the buglar he is a support class but he does a huge amount of single target dps that some of my kin mates, say he's a dps class.
That may be true Thao, but we also provide more healing and a greater assortment of buffs to the group than the burglar does. They excel at placing "de-buffs" on enemies. That's their strength. So I don't really feel we need to be equal to them in that department.
And yeah, I'm against balancing all the support classes to become equal in healing and dps. That would water down the variety among them - and basically make them all just the same class. I'm strongly opposed to such a bland design, and like every class to have their own individual strengths and weaknesses that help define their individualty and purpose.
If players want to play a support class with an emphasis on DPS - go Burglar. If players want to a play a support class with an emphasis on buffs and restoring morale - play Captain. It offers a more unique choice that way - instead of everyone just doing the same thing in their own way - which is boring.
That may be true Thao, but we also provide more healing and a greater assortment of buffs to the group than the burglar does. They excel at placing "de-buffs" on enemies. That's their strength. So I don't really feel we need to be equal to them in that department.
And yeah, I'm against balancing all the support classes to become equal in healing and dps. That would water down the variety among them - and basically make them all just the same class. I'm strongly opposed to such a bland design, and like every class to have their own individual strengths and weaknesses that help define their individualty and purpose.
If players want to play a support class with an emphasis on DPS - go Burglar. If players want to a play a support class with an emphasis on buffs and restoring morale - play Captain. It offers a more unique choice that way - instead of everyone just doing the same thing in their own way - which is boring.
Hm our heal compared to other supporters is bad, some of our buff are unique but many of our buffs are weak agains the buffs from other classes (for example the mini buffs). We are emphased in healing and buffing? Why we have 3 trait lines with 3 different roles (dont say cause of solo/small group play)? I dont want the only one trait line is the best in raids, today this is not the the case, blue trait line is a bit to weak, but many ppl still think deep blue is the only viable trait set.
Georg Schramm "...wir brauchen Idioten sonst frisst keiner Gammelfleisch!"
Hm our heal compared to other supporters is bad, some of our buff are unique but many of our buffs are weak agains the buffs from other classes (for example the mini buffs). We are emphased in healing and buffing? Why we have 3 trait lines with 3 different roles (dont say cause of solo/small group play)? I dont want the only one trait line is the best in raids, today this is not the the case, blue trait line is a bit to weak, but many ppl still think deep blue is the only viable trait set.
Well we disagree on serveral points here. First - I don't feel our heals are bad when compared to other support classes. In fact I think we are the best at healing out of the 3 support classes. I also don't think the HoH line is weak. Quite the opposite in fact - though I don't feel it's the only "viable" traitline either so I do agree with you there.
No matter what traitline you play as a Captain, there is still an emphasis on restoring morale and buffing. Those are just the trademarks of the over-all Captain design. For example: just because you play a Lead the Captain to boost your damage and damage support - that doesn't mean you shoud stop using Rally Cry and Words of Courage - or your Inspire to restore both morale and power.
Especially with the recent changes to might - all Captains are capable of effective healing. That's part of what being Captain is about - increasing and restoring the morale of your troops.
Also to add one of my own suggestions, instead of just agreeing with others:
I would like to see a new skill available at level 85 called "Decapitation" - which lets us instantly kill a weakened mob by hewing off its head.
This would be cool, and could be used strategically to give us faster access to a defeat response when nessessary. It could also give a group-wide buff of some sort - doubling the effect of our War cry perhaps. That would be awesome ^^
Hm our heal compared to other supporters is bad, some of our buff are unique but many of our buffs are weak agains the buffs from other classes (for example the mini buffs). We are emphased in healing and buffing? Why we have 3 trait lines with 3 different roles (dont say cause of solo/small group play)? I dont want the only one trait line is the best in raids, today this is not the the case, blue trait line is a bit to weak, but many ppl still think deep blue is the only viable trait set.
M8 i'd rather say we are the no1 healing support even not bluelined
And talking about blue being only viable line is so wrong.
Myself i am in a decent raiding kin and seldom use else than 5red+ 2blue, have not been in pure blue since we left lvl 65.
We are faring better than ever today!
Captain class is rocking
-¤-¤-¤- Errare humanum est, ignoscere divinum est -¤-¤-¤-
Something else to add here - HoH needs a healing boost because 4red/3blue and LtC heal so much, that HoH lose because of it's crippled DPS comparatively.
Originally Posted by Jeremi
For example: just because you play a Lead the Captain to boost your damage and damage support - that doesn't mean you shoud stop using Rally Cry and Words of Courage - or your Inspire to restore both morale and power.
Had you have ever played LtC, you would know exactly what happens if a captain doesn't Inspire and RC in that traitline.....
Last edited by Almagnus1; Jun 30 2012 at 05:31 PM.
Something else to add here - HoH needs a healing boost because 4red/3blue and LtC heal so much, that HoH lose because of it's crippled DPS comparatively.
Had you have ever played LtC, you would know exactly what happens if a captain doesn't Inspire and RC in that traitline.....
Thas what i say: when HoH gets buffed (what is needed), than Ltc needs more dmg (balance the dps of all support classes that are red traited) or a support buff (maybe +%x crit chance for the party when spell Blade of Elendils is used is used) to be viable in raid.
Georg Schramm "...wir brauchen Idioten sonst frisst keiner Gammelfleisch!"
*The use of bow - one pretty weak bow attack with a low cd for initial aggro in raids/instances/solomobs and as something we can attack with and do meanwhile if we can't stay in melee as it looks better to use a bow than just stand still with our weapon in our hands. The bow will be placed in the current banner, (ranged) slot as usual.
*Remove the captain emblem LI and replace it with a Banner LI. The bonuses from it+legacies is given to us upon equip and as long as we stay within herald/banner radius if it's dropped and the bonuses without the legacies is given too the group within a radius like the one we have today if we drop it to the ground. If we summon a herald, it will be the one to carry our LI banner. Running too far away from the placed banner/herald carrying the banner, will result in that both are removed and replaced in our class slot.
*Give Pressing attack increased threat as a LoM class trait and a threat up rating as a LI weapon legacy.
*Valiant strike applies a damage preventing bubble to the fellowship and no longer applies a healing+(HoT)
*The Kick cooldown is reduced to 5 to make us equal with the champs as a support class with interrupts.
*Last stand, In harms way and Shield of the dunedain should now be merged into one legendary trait: The Captain sacrifices his life to protect the whole fellowship from 100% damage for the next 10s. The captain dies upon expiration. 5m cd.
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So I had to settle for a man.
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-¤-¤-¤- Errare humanum est, ignoscere divinum est -¤-¤-¤-
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