LoM traited with Song on capstone. Threat from Healing - detrimental I want threat, Outgoing Healing - pretty pointless, you use few healing skills, Reduced P-C from healing skills - again not a huge proportion of your rotation. PoT - yes it is useful.
LoM with Shield on capstone. Crit Defence - Fantastic. +20% Incoming Healing - Fantastic, -15% Damage - Fantastic, HoT - Good, and only if there was no LM would I prefer the PoT, but if anyone needs a HoT it's you.
HoH traited with Shield on Capstone. Crit Defence, +20% Incoming Healing, -15% Damage - Fantastic, HoT These are all clearly geared to someone taking damage, which as your healing you shouldn't be.
HoH traited with Song on Capstone. Threat from Healing - good, Outgoing Healing - great, Reduced P-C from healing skills - great. PoT - great.
You are applying the xbro potential to improve your role. I am saying I think of it as it would benefit the bro and therefore would benefit me.
When we trait for tanking we already maximise survivability with gear, traits and virtues. I think of the xbro skills as what I, as a Captain, can do for others to help them help me.
LoM+Song - I get more heals. I still use my own heals and I have power problems.
LoM+Shield - Yes I make myself even sturdier (not denying thats good) but i've already invested in that department.
HoH+Shield - Makes my life easier because as a healer I have 1 more HoT and reduced damage on the FS.
HoH+Song - Power. OGH is maxed and -threat is irrelevant.
If you look at the xbro skills in a vacuum and look at what they do to help the captain to fulfil a specific role then your breakdown makes more sense. I choose to look at them as part of a bigger picture. I've built for Tanking / Healing => I balance with xbro instead of build further with it to the same end.
I do agree that -healing threat is detrimental to LoM. It's not such a deal breaker though as there is plenty of threat already and it does not reduce it by THAT much.
You are applying the xbro potential to improve your role. I am saying I think of it as it would benefit the bro and therefore would benefit me.
No, I am arguing for the current set up of the capstones. Going deep enough into a traitline to get a capstone means you are specialising yourself. Specifically in reference to the mirroring of the xbro effects, 5 deep in blue getting full song brother benefits on yourself does help you, the full benefits from shield brother does not. When you are talking about which bro to reflect onto yourself you need the one which is useful for you.
Originally Posted by Ravenstride
When we trait for tanking we already maximise survivability with gear, traits and virtues. I think of the xbro skills as what I, as a Captain, can do for others to help them help me.
LoM+Song - I get more heals. I still use my own heals and I have power problems.
LoM+Shield - Yes I make myself even sturdier (not denying thats good) but i've already invested in that department.
You get more heals with incoming healing on yourself, rather than out going healing on the healer (given Song to arms averages at 12.5%, whereas shield SoW is 20%, as a tank you can never be too sturdy, and yes power can be problematic, but there are much better ways of solving it than songbrother.
Originally Posted by Ravenstride
HoH+Shield - Makes my life easier because as a healer I have 1 more HoT and reduced damage on the FS.
HoH+Song - Power. OGH is maxed and -threat is irrelevant.
This is again an argument for using shield when healing not for having shield brother bonuses on yourself while healing. I've never disputed that, but the fact remains swapping the associated brother skills does very little to improve the group. Oh and OGH isn't "maxed" as the +25% works independantly of caps, so if you have 50%OGH unbuffed, you will have 75% buffed.
Originally Posted by Ravenstride
If you look at the xbro skills in a vacuum and look at what they do to help the captain to fulfil a specific role then your breakdown makes more sense. I choose to look at them as part of a bigger picture. I've built for Tanking / Healing => I balance with xbro instead of build further with it to the same end.
I do agree that -healing threat is detrimental to LoM. It's not such a deal breaker though as there is plenty of threat already and it does not reduce it by THAT much.
TL;DR I'm not disputing that shield bro is a better bet for a healing captain, just that switching the associated brother skills which are mirrored doesn't solve anything, as the bonuses you get don't buff you in particularly useful ways if you switch them, which is your proposed change. Also I disagree that song bro is better in LoM.
As a healer if you run out of power your group dies. It's as simple as that. Therefore the self-targetable feature of the capstone makes perfect sense that Song Brother would be the one tied to the HoH traitline.
For example, let's say you are fighting some undead boss that has some move that instantly drains all of your power. There were a few of these in the older content. Normally this would spell instant death for the group if it happened to your healer unless a loremaster was along for the ride. Now a HoH Captain can effectively counter that on his own - making him more self-sufficient as a dependable healer.
The real issue here is much of the newer content isn't very power-intensive. None of the newer bosses have any moves like the older ones that can instantly empty your power bar for example - and very few fights will give skilled players a challenge at maintaining their power. This hasn't just affected the value of Song Brother, but Lore Masters as well - and with the exception of maybe Saruman, I rarely see people trying to recruit loremasters for power management reasons. They are mostly wanted for the stun immunities now.
Trust me, if more of the newer fights were harder on power - there would be a lot less complaints about the usefulness of Song Brother to Hands of Healing Captains. But diregarding this - and generally speaking - being able to rapdily restore power to themselves is a lot more valauble to a healer than being able to place a HoT on themselves.
So to sum it up - it makes sense why Song Brother is tied to the HoH traitline. Power recovery does compliment a healer - and we still at perfect liberty to use Shield Brother when healing tanks. The presence of a self-targetable feature on Song Brother gives this class a sense of security it never had before.
As a healer if you run out of power your group dies. It's as simple as that. Therefore the self-targetable feature of the capstone makes perfect sense that Song Brother would be the one tied to the HoH traitline.
For example, let's say you are fighting some undead boss that has some move that instantly drains all of your power. There were a few of these in the older content. Normally this would spell instant death for the group if it happened to your healer unless a loremaster was along for the ride. Now a HoH Captain can effectively counter that on his own - making him more self-sufficient as a dependable healer.
The real issue here is much of the newer content isn't very power-intensive. None of the newer bosses have any moves like the older ones that can instantly empty your power bar for example - and very few fights will give skilled players a challenge at maintaining their power. This hasn't just affected the value of Song Brother, but Lore Masters as well - and with the exception of maybe Saruman, I rarely see people trying to recruit loremasters for power management reasons. They are mostly wanted for the stun immunities now.
Trust me, if more of the newer fights were harder on power - there would be a lot less complaints about the usefulness of Song Brother to Hands of Healing Captains. But diregarding this - and generally speaking - being able to rapdily restore power to themselves is a lot more valauble to a healer than being able to place a HoT on themselves.
So to sum it up - it makes sense why Song Brother is tied to the HoH traitline. Power recovery does compliment a healer - and we still at perfect liberty to use Shield Brother when healing tanks. The presence of a self-targetable feature on Song Brother gives this class a sense of security it never had before.
A) Anyone runs out of power, it's going to cause problems. That's why you build such that power issues are a non-issue for you.
B) You have to fabricate an example and hand-wave another just to show how useful Song Brother is. Even counting the content from level 60 to 75 - baring user error - the only encounter where Song Bro would have made a tremendous difference is BG LT. There simply aren't enough of these encounters to justify Song Bro's borked existence.
A) Anyone runs out of power, it's going to cause problems. That's why you build such that power issues are a non-issue for you.
B) You have to fabricate an example and hand-wave another just to show how useful Song Brother is. Even counting the content from level 60 to 75 - baring user error - the only encounter where Song Bro would have made a tremendous difference is BG LT. There simply aren't enough of these encounters to justify Song Bro's borked existence.
tl-dr: Bad examples, try again dude.
Not many are good at A. I think we just get in the habit of running with good people which is less the rule and more the exception in my pessimistic view of today's player-base.
I have a recent example to counter B. In RoF final boss we had hunter(my alt), 2 minstrels, guard, champ, warden. Everyone except my hunter, who is built for just about every power cost reduction/restore available, was out of power about half-way through. After the second minstrel switched to his captain and used song-brother the fight went as smooth as butter as no one was out of power and that meant heals could keep up better than with 2 power-starved minstrels. Also the dps was better because the fellow-ship brother power restore was enough to keep the champ's dps going.
I have a recent example to counter B. In RoF final boss we had hunter(my alt), 2 minstrels, guard, champ, warden. Everyone except my hunter, who is built for just about every power cost reduction/restore available, was out of power about half-way through. After the second minstrel switched to his captain and used song-brother the fight went as smooth as butter as no one was out of power and that meant heals could keep up better than with 2 power-starved minstrels. Also the dps was better because the fellow-ship brother power restore was enough to keep the champ's dps going.
However, many a captain have completed RoF without using Song Bro, and the instance can be completed without using a captain - so that's not a very compelling example.
Last edited by Almagnus1; Jun 25 2012 at 06:40 PM.
However, many a captain have completed RoF using Blade Bro, and the instance can be completed without using a captain - so that's not a very compelling example.
And there you have it, you never need a specific anything all the time whether it be class or skill. Song-brother was just a viable solution to the present problem, and for me and others, that is enough to make the skill better than "polished poop."
And there you have it, you never need a specific anything all the time whether it be class or skill. Song-brother was just a viable solution to the present problem, and for me and others, that is enough to make the skill better than "polished poop."
But answer this: Can you name two encounters, USING A BALANCED GROUP, where Song Brother would a positive difference over the other XBros?
My argument is this: Song Brother needs work because it causes a HEALING LOSS when compared against using Shield Brother for healing while in a HoH capstone build. Song Brother is also inferior to Blade Brother because the intended targets don't really need it, and only 1/3 of it is situationally useful, compared to at least 2/3 (if not all) of Blade and Shield.
Last edited by Almagnus1; Jun 25 2012 at 10:12 PM.
But answer this: Can you name two encounters, USING A BALANCED GROUP, where Song Brother would a positive difference over the other XBros?
My argument is this: Song Brother needs work because it causes a HEALING LOSS when compared against using Shield Brother for healing while in a HoH capstone build. Song Brother is also inferior to Blade Brother because the intended targets don't really need it, and only 1/3 of it is situationally useful, compared to at least 2/3 (if not all) of Blade and Shield.
What do you mean by "BALANCED GROUP"? Whenever I've been at Saruman I typically song-brother the minstrel and have fellowship-brother too. When I look at my group compared to the other where the captain is running shield-brother, mine is the one full on power and morale while the other group is struggling with both.
Yes it's a personal healing loss to run it the whole time, but if you take the average of 12.5% increase to healing that to-arms gives on you and the minstrel I think it works out to be comparable and much more sustainable than running straight shield-brother for long fights.
If you're solo-healing a group as a captain then no, it is not advantageous to use song-brother over shield-brother as long as your icpr can keep up until the fight is over. And if the fight runs too long, I'd just switch to song-brother for a little bit to regen if needed. It's nice to have options.
I think I've seen it suggested before, but what I think would be nice is if regardless of which -brother you use, the full effect of whatever capstone-related -brother is reflected to you. Then you could get the 20% incoming heal on the tank and give yourself the 25% ogh to-arms for maximum healing.
But answer this: Can you name two encounters, USING A BALANCED GROUP, where Song Brother would a positive difference over the other XBros?
My argument is this: Song Brother needs work because it causes a HEALING LOSS when compared against using Shield Brother for healing while in a HoH capstone build. Song Brother is also inferior to Blade Brother because the intended targets don't really need it, and only 1/3 of it is situationally useful, compared to at least 2/3 (if not all) of Blade and Shield.
You keep talking like each brother skill is INTENDED to be used with Fellowship Brother, which I don't believe it is. I use Song brother on my Healer to boost his/her capability. I don't do it for the whole fellowship. Just like I don't need Blade Brother's benefits for the healer.
I usually don't have FB slotted. Why? Because I feel the effects for the fellowship aren't good enough to give up a legendary slot. I'd rather have shield/oathies with my capstone.
What do you mean by "BALANCED GROUP"? Whenever I've been at Saruman I typically song-brother the minstrel and have fellowship-brother too. When I look at my group compared to the other where the captain is running shield-brother, mine is the one full on power and morale while the other group is struggling with both.
Your example had two minis and two tanks. Typically, fellows have only one tank and one healer, filling the rest with support and/or DPS - and I would call that a balanced group. The group you laid out likely has DPS issues, which would lead to power issues.
And WS Minis hemorrhage power.....
Originally Posted by toom87
I think I've seen it suggested before, but what I think would be nice is if regardless of which -brother you use, the full effect of whatever capstone-related -brother is reflected to you. Then you could get the 20% incoming heal on the tank and give yourself the 25% ogh to-arms for maximum healing.
The only glaring problem with this is FB - What happens if a LoM captain Blade Bro's a champ with FB slotted? Does the LoM captain get a self Shield Bro and FB Blade Bro? Does a HoH captain with FB Blade Bro a champ, then get a self Song Bro and an FB Blade Bro?
Originally Posted by Uron
You keep talking like each brother skill is INTENDED to be used with Fellowship Brother, which I don't believe it is. I use Song brother on my Healer to boost his/her capability. I don't do it for the whole fellowship. Just like I don't need Blade Brother's benefits for the healer.
While not all captains have FB slotted, enough captains do that each Brother skill needs consideration on how it affects the target, the captain (capstone self Brother), and the fellow (FB).
A) Anyone runs out of power, it's going to cause problems. That's why you build such that power issues are a non-issue for you.
B) You have to fabricate an example and hand-wave another just to show how useful Song Brother is. Even counting the content from level 60 to 75 - baring user error - the only encounter where Song Bro would have made a tremendous difference is BG LT. There simply aren't enough of these encounters to justify Song Bro's borked existence.
tl-dr: Bad examples, try again dude.
.... they weren't bad examples so I don't really need to "try again dude".
I use Song Brother all the time. Rather it's just when I'm duoing little things like Lime Light Gorge when I want to throw Blade Brother on my tank and burn through the mob's HP fast then use Song Brother to recover my power to bigger things like raids when I fight Saruman I use it to recover power for the ministrels or even loremasters who are powersharing.
I have given dozens of examples when I've effectively used Song Brother during the course of this debate. Song Brother isn't "borked". It's great at restoring power - and that can come in handy on a lot of occasions. And my last post wasn't even meant to give specific examples of when it was good. It was meant as a comparison to the past and how earlier content was more difficult on power than a lot of the newer content is and how that could be playing a part as to why Song Brother isn't used more often by some.
But it's not "borked". It's a great power restore tool - and it makes perfect sense why it can become self-targetable for HoH Captains, as power-restoration is useful to healers, arguably more useful than a HoT from Shield Brother would be in fact. So your logic for calling it "borked" just doesn't add up. And just because you have a theory that each traitline should only use one brother skill while largely neglecting the others doesn't make it a bad skill in any way.
Like I was trying to say in my earlier post that you completely misunderstood - if more of the newer content was harder on power you wouldn't be calling it "borked" trust me. You would be praising it and saying how incredibly useful it was.
The only glaring problem with this is FB - What happens if a LoM captain Blade Bro's a champ with FB slotted? Does the LoM captain get a self Shield Bro and FB Blade Bro? Does a HoH captain with FB Blade Bro a champ, then get a self Song Bro and an FB Blade Bro?
I wouldn't call it a glaring problem, but a design decision that would need to be made.
Option 1: Either make it a straight buff so the captain could get both FB effect + full SB/BB effect.
Option 2: Attempt some balance to it and make us thing harder about selecting a capstone and just give the captain the full SB/BB effect with no extra FB effect.
Since the first is a straight buff I think we'd all like to see that option instead, and we would get more out of traiting FB+Capstone legendaries.
I wouldn't call it a glaring problem, but a design decision that would need to be made.
Option 1: Either make it a straight buff so the captain could get both FB effect + full SB/BB effect.
Option 2: Attempt some balance to it and make us thing harder about selecting a capstone and just give the captain the full SB/BB effect with no extra FB effect.
Since the first is a straight buff I think we'd all like to see that option instead, and we would get more out of traiting FB+Capstone legendaries.
The first option would also make Song Brother's usage even rarer than it is now, and effectively make Blade Brother the only Brother Skill that sees usage. Shield Brother would be halfway decent while HoH traited, but generally not worth the loss compared to Blade Brother.
While not all captains have FB slotted, enough captains do that each Brother skill needs consideration on how it affects the target, the captain (capstone self Brother), and the fellow (FB).
I disagree. Captains may use it a lot, but that doesn't mean it's intended use is to be used in conjunction with each x-brother skill. A nice side-effect is for the group bonuses, and maybe the Song brother benefits aren't great for the fellowship. But Song Brother itself is not meant for the fellowship. It is meant for the healer (and the HoH Captain). I don't think Song Brother needs a rework to account for the rest of the fellowship. Again, Blade-Brother's effects aren't necessarily good for the healer. Should it be reworked so it can be good for everyone?
I disagree. Captains may use it a lot, but that doesn't mean it's intended use is to be used in conjunction with each x-brother skill. A nice side-effect is for the group bonuses, and maybe the Song brother benefits aren't great for the fellowship. But Song Brother itself is not meant for the fellowship. It is meant for the healer (and the HoH Captain). I don't think Song Brother needs a rework to account for the rest of the fellowship. Again, Blade-Brother's effects aren't necessarily good for the healer. Should it be reworked so it can be good for everyone?
But that's just it. Song Brother is a "selfish" buff, while the other two Brother skills are "selfless".
This class is about making the other members of the party uber, and to have a buff that ONLY benefits us seems really out of place.
But that's just it. Song Brother is a "selfish" buff, while the other two Brother skills are "selfless".
This class is about making the other members of the party uber, and to have a buff that ONLY benefits us seems really out of place.
It's not selfish lol
It can be used on others to restore their power, and as a healer you having power is anything BUT selfish, considering we use that power to heal others.
It can be used on others to restore their power, and as a healer you having power is anything BUT selfish, considering we use that power to heal others.
It's selfish, because you're having your power AT THE EXPENSE of their healing. It's a "self first, other's last" skill, instead of "other's first, self last".
It is, because you're having your power AT THE EXPENSE of their healing.
Almagnus, if you are out of power or about to run out of power then they wouldn't be getting any healing to begin with though. Besides, you are forgetting that Song Brother can be used on other players to restore THEIR power as well. It's not a selfish ability lol
Though I do agree with you in one respect, it can be used selfishly of course - if say a tank is struggling and instead of using Shield Brother on the tank to help out the Captain instead sticks to using just Song Brother even when the Captain doesn't need any power. I would agree that is a selfish use of the ability. BUT all skills, especially support ones can be used selfishly or foolishly. That's not a Song Brother issue. That's a player one.
Almagnus, if you are out of power or about to run out of power then they wouldn't be getting any healing to begin with though. Besides, you are forgetting that Song Brother can be used on other players to restore THEIR power as well. It's not a selfish ability lol
Though I do agree with you in one respect, it can be used selfishly of course - if say a tank is struggling and instead of using Shield Brother on the tank to help out the Captain instead sticks to using just Song Brother even when the Captain doesn't need any power. I would agree that is a selfish use of the ability. BUT all skills, especially support ones can be used selfishly or foolishly. That's not a Song Brother issue. That's a player one.
Then explain why something explicitly named on the healing capstone causes you a HEALING LOSS when you use it?
Then explain why something explicitly named on the healing capstone causes you a HEALING LOSS when you use it?
I have tried to explain it already.
The only way Song Brother is directly tied to the Hands of Healing traitline is through the self-target feature on the capstone trait. That is it. It's just one tiny part of a HoH Captain - and it makes a lot of sense why Song Brother would be the Brother Skill of choice for a Hands of Healing Captain to be able to place on themselves - because power is VERY important to a healer, and being able to rapdily restore power is more valuable to a healer than would be an incoming healing bonus on the healer itself or a HoT. Healers generally and shouldn't be taking that much direct damage. That's what tanks are for.
So it makes a lot more sence that Shield Brother is the one allowed to be self-targetable on the tank-oriented Captains, as they are receiving a lot more healing than would a healing Captain - hence why that is the brother skill that tanks can put on themselves. And healers can put the one that restores power on themselves. It makes perfect sense to me.
The only way Song Brother is directly tied to the Hands of Healing traitline is through the self-target feature on the capstone trait. That is it. It's just one tiny part of a HoH Captain - and it makes a lot of sense why Song Brother would be the Brother Skill of choice for a Hands of Healing Captain to be able to place on themselves - because power is VERY important to a healer, and being able to rapdily restore power is more valuable to a healer than would be an incoming healing bonus on the healer itself or a HoT. Healers generally and shouldn't be taking that much direct damage. That's what tanks are for.
However, by choosing Song Brother over Shield (or even Blade), the captain is denying the group buffs that are expected.
This means that the HoH self-Brother either ends up being unused, or being used, and the group suffers for it - unlike the benefits the group reaps from a LoM or LtC captain using their self brother skill.
One of these is not like the others. That's the problem.
However, by choosing Song Brother over Shield (or even Blade), the captain is denying the group buffs that are expected.
This means that the HoH self-Brother either ends up being unused, or being used, and the group suffers for it - unlike the benefits the group reaps from a LoM or LtC captain using their self brother skill.
One of these is not like the others. That's the problem.
If the Captain is running low on power and decides to use Song Brother on themselves the only thing he is denying the group is a healer without any power - which is BAD.
I agree it's selfish to use when power is not a concern - especially if the tank is struggling. But if it's used strategically to restore power where needed it's anything BUT selfish, and a huge benefit to both you and the group.
Any support skill can be used selfishly or stupidly. That's not singular of Song Brother. That's just poor playing by the Captain.
If the Captain is running low on power and decides to use Song Brother on themselves the only thing he is denying the group is a healer without any power - which is BAD.
I agree it's selfish to use when power is not a concern - especially if the tank is struggling. But if it's used strategically to restore power where needed it's anything BUT selfish, and a huge benefit to both you and the group.
Any support skill can be used selfishly or stupidly. That's not singular of Song Brother. That's just poor playing by the Captain.
You're not addressing the general lack of a self-Brother in HoH (when compared to a near constant Self-Brother in the other two trait line capstone builds), and instead focusing on a red herring.
Why is HoH the special case where it generally functions without it's self brother?
You're not addressing the general lack of a self-Brother in HoH (when compared to a near constant Self-Brother in the other two trait line capstone builds), and instead focusing on a red herring.
Why is HoH the special case where it generally functions without it's self brother?
I did address it Almagnus.
The self-targetable feature on the capstone gives Hands of Healing Captains the added benfit of being able to rapidly restore power to themselves, which is very handy to have (especially for a healing class) and gives the traitline a sense of security I imagine most other healers would long for.
I know you have a theory that each traitline should have a singular brother skill they use most of the time. But that's just a theory of yours, and it doens't diminish the usefulness of being able to rapidly restore power to themselves as a HoH Captain.
The self-targetable feature on the capstone gives Hands of Healing Captains the added benfit of being able to rapidly restore power to themselves, which is very handy to have (especially for a healing class) and gives the traitline a sense of security I imagine most other healers would long for.
I know you have a theory that each traitline should have a singular brother skill they use most of the time. But that's just a theory of yours, and it doens't diminish the usefulness of being able to rapidly restore power to themselves as a HoH Captain.
Are you saying that LtC capstone builds don't run Blade Brother most of the time?
Are you saying that LoM capstone builds don't run Shield Brother most of the time?
That's what's observed, and that's ALL of the non-HoH capstones that run their self brother most of the time. It's not theory, it's asking "Is HoH being the odd-man-out indicating that the HoH capstone is not working as intended?"
Last edited by Almagnus1; Jun 26 2012 at 05:06 PM.
Do you saying that LtC capstone builds don't run Blade Brother most of the time?
Are you also saying that LoM capstone builds don't run Shield Brother most of the time?
That's what's observed, and that's ALL of the non-HoH capstones that run their self brother most of the time. It's not theory, it's asking "Is HoH being the odd-man-out indicating that the capstone is not working as intended?"
No I'm not saying that.
I should point out here that there are also different ways to effectively play HoH Captains. While me and you seem to have similiar perspectives on this - and prefer to focus our strategy around shield brother and putting out the most healing possible to keep our tanks alive - a lot of HoH Captains do it differently.
Some for example DO run with it up nearly all of the time - relying solely on Song Brother as their form of ICPR - which gives them room to increase their offenses significantly. And while this strategy isn't as effective as a sole healer - it can be argued that if teamed up with a very skilled and powerful healer (rare but I have seem them) who simply don't need any healing support as long as they have power - it is a more powerful combo.
Not all Hands of Healing captains are interested in being able to main-heal content. You and I are, but others aren't - and some are content to be relied on to give healers endless power while buffing and dpsing.
So there are viable builds that do revolve around using Song Brother "most of the time". It just depends on how you play and who are playing with - and what that individual player's priorities are.
I should point out here that there are also different ways to effectively play HoH Captains. While me and you seem to have similiar perspectives on this - and prefer to focus our strategy around shield brother and putting out the most healing possible to keep our tanks alive - a lot of HoH Captains do it differently.
Some for example DO run with it up nearly all of the time - relying solely on Song Brother as their form of ICPR - which gives them room to increase their offenses significantly. And while this strategy isn't as effective as a sole healer - it can be argued that if teamed up with a very skilled and powerful healer (rare but I have seem them) who simply don't need any healing support as long as they have power - it is a more powerful combo.
Not all Hands of Healing captains are interested in being able to main-heal content. You and I are, but others aren't - and some are content to be relied on to give healers endless power while buffing and dpsing.
So there are viable builds that do revolve around using Song Brother "most of the time". It just depends on how you play and who are playing with - and that that individual player's priorities are.
Therein lies the problem....
If I want to use another trait line's Brother skill more often than my own, then my own Brother skill is broken, because it's not worth using most of the time.
If I want to use another trait line's Brother skill more often than my own, then my own Brother skill is broken, because it's not worth using most of the time.
That's not what I said in my post.
Some HoH Captains DO use Song Brother more often than their other brother skills. It just depends on the individual HoH Captain and what his/her priorities are.
Either way, Song Brother isn't "broken". It's a great tool to restore power, and can be useful to any Captain, regardless of their traits. And even more so to HoH Captains as it gives us the added benefit of being able to rapidly restore power to ourselves as well - which is extremely handy to be able to do as a healer.
Like I said to you earlier - just because a skill doesn't fit into your own individual play-style a lot, that doesn't mean the skill is "broken" or "boinked".
It's a great tool to restore power, and can be useful to any Captain, regardless of their traits.
Not so, Song Brother is pretty worthless without FB, because it can only restore power to a single target - and if you are only doing single target power restore, why not go with Blade Bro so you can do a HoT/PoT to the target?
As I have been saying all along, Song Brother is not designed well. That it must be called a power restore tool (which ignores the buffs attached to it) before it can be labeled as something useful shows that it's clearly not working as intended.
But that's just it. Song Brother is a "selfish" buff, while the other two Brother skills are "selfless".
This class is about making the other members of the party uber, and to have a buff that ONLY benefits us seems really out of place.
I don't see how you arrived at that conclusion. With Capstone, each x-brother skill is supposed to give you the buffs it provides to said x-brother. That's not selfish, that's how the skill functions. In this case (as Aragorn was said to have), you have true Hands of Healing. Which you could use on yourself if need be.
Regardless, I still fail to see how you think this skill is broken. It does exactly what it's supposed to. And say it all you will, but it was NOT meant to function perfectly with Fellowship Brother.
Whether it's "meant" to work with FB or not is a moot point, because we know for certain that it's meant to be used to boost our healing capability. It just happens to be worse at that job than Shield-Brother, which is why it's a broken skill.
Regardless, I still fail to see how you think this skill is broken. It does exactly what it's supposed to. And say it all you will, but it was NOT meant to function perfectly with Fellowship Brother.
To sum it up, while Song Brother was clearly intended to be a healing tool, in practice, Shield Brother is the better healing tool. Song Brother not succeeding at it's intended role has caused captains to assign it another one based on the ICPR buff on Song Brother and Song Brother: Inspire - power restoration. The major design flaw with Song Brother is that it was intended for classes that (generally) do not need it, in a game where FB was not intended to be as big of a hit as it is.
Song Brother needs to drop the -healing threat modifier. Anything else (ICMR?) would be an improvement.
Song Brother: Strength of Will has a very narrow appeal, unlike Shield and Blade Brother's Strength of Wills. Generalizing Song Brother: Strength of Will (or replacing it with something else that's good for a HoH captain and the fellow as a whole) would go miles towards making Song Brother better.
Song Brother: Inspire is the only Inspire that does not have a HoT. This one change would allow Song Brother to be on par (if not exceed) Shield Brother's healing capabilities.
To sum it up, while Song Brother was clearly intended to be a healing tool, in practice, Shield Brother is the better healing tool.
If you look at them as support tools, since we are in fact a support class, they work just fine. Blade-Brother directly supports the DPS, Shield-Brother direcly supports the tank, and Song-Brother directly supports the healer.
Each one can be used to indirectly support the other roles, such as your prime example that by using shield-brother on the tank supports the healer by reducing damage to the tank and providing them with some healing. Or by using blade-brother on the dps, you support the tank and healer by dealing more damage faster thus reducing overall damage and required healing.
And don't forget, power healing is a type of healing. A recent though I had: given that Song-Brother:Inspire has a great power restore, I wonder if it could serve as a substitute for always traiting Now for Wrath.
One thing we know is Shield-bro better for keeping the tank alive. As for keeping the group alive, both Song-bro and Shield-bro do well there. I don't know with certainty which is better for that job, but I think Shield-bro is with its HoT+Inc Heal+To Arms. I'd like to see +15-25% crit heal multiplier added to the full Song-bro SoW. That wouldn't make Song-bro better for focused tank heals, but it probably would make it the clear winner for aoe heals.
Originally Posted by toom87
A recent though I had: given that Song-Brother:Inspire has a great power restore, I wonder if it could serve as a substitute for always traiting Now for Wrath.
Thinking outside the box is good. But I think that there would be trading one crutch for another.
Not so, Song Brother is pretty worthless without FB, because it can only restore power to a single target - and if you are only doing single target power restore, why not go with Blade Bro so you can do a HoT/PoT to the target?
As I have been saying all along, Song Brother is not designed well. That it must be called a power restore tool (which ignores the buffs attached to it) before it can be labeled as something useful shows that it's clearly not working as intended.
Well on this we deffinetely disagree. I never trait Fellowship Brother, yet find Song Brother extremely useful, and use it all the time to restore power to both myself and others. This is yet another example of you calling skills you don't regularly use "worthless". That's a common thread in all of your opinions, and like I said in an earlier post - you have this habit of always basing a skill's worth based off rather or not Almagnus currently uses it a lot.
Furthermore Song Brother is not poorly designed. It is designed to restore power (that is obvious) and at doing that it exels and surprasses all other skills or abilities we have. Nothing else we have is as good as this skill is at restoring power - especially if you are a HoH Captain.
Just yesterday for example I was duoing filikul with a friend and frequently resorted to Song Brother to get my power back up. In less than a minute I was able to restore my entire power bar (which is nearly 5k) back to full - and you can actually call this ability "pretty worthless" with a straight face lol?
It's a great move Almagnus, you just haven't learned to appreciate it yet is all.
Whether it's "meant" to work with FB or not is a moot point, because we know for certain that it's meant to be used to boost our healing capability. It just happens to be worse at that job than Shield-Brother, which is why it's a broken skill.
It's not broken...
The only way Song Brother directly relates to the Hands of Healing line is because of the self-targetable feature on the capstone. That is all.
Being able to rapidly restore one's power pool is far more useful to the individual healer than would be a buff to incoming healing. As a healer you shouldn't be taking that much direct damage. So I really have no idea why you and others are having such a hard time understanding why Song Brother is the brother skill HoH can use on themselves rather Shield Brother. It makes perfect sense. Because as as a healer, Song Brother is more valuable as a self-targetable tool than would be Shield Brother.
Also, restoring power IS a form of "healing support". It just is. The only thing broken here is this weird logic that's being attempted to try and label Song Brother as "broken".
Just because a skill doesn't line up with a narrow-minded theory about how you feel Song Brother should be designed, doesn't mean the skill is therefore "broken". It just means it was designed differently than you would have liked. But that doesn't mean the skill is "broken". Because it's not - and it works just fine.
One thing we know is Shield-bro better for keeping the tank alive. As for keeping the group alive, both Song-bro and Shield-bro do well there. I don't know with certainty which is better for that job, but I think Shield-bro is with its HoT+Inc Heal+To Arms. I'd like to see +15-25% crit heal multiplier added to the full Song-bro SoW. That wouldn't make Song-bro better for focused tank heals, but it probably would make it the clear winner for aoe heals.
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The clear winner for AoE heals is a good ministrel And ask any ministrel which fellowship brother he'd rather have on himself while countering huge AoE damage. You can bet real money it will be Song Brother.
The guy who brought up power-healing in an earlier post was on to something, and for intense AoE wide healing the combination of a well-played ministrel and Song Brother is a very powerful combination.
Shield Brother is the best tool for Captains main-healing (no doubts) - but there is a very good argument to be made that when teamed up with a skilled ministrel (especially if a lot of AoE damage is flying around) - Song Brother is the better choice. Which is just another example of why this skill is anything BUT broken.
The clear winner for AoE heals is a good ministrel And ask any ministrel which fellowship brother he'd rather have on himself while countering huge AoE damage. You can bet real money it will be Song Brother.
The guy who brought up power-healing in an earlier post was on to something, and for intense AoE wide healing the combination of a well-played ministrel and Song Brother is a very powerful combination.
Shield Brother is the best tool for Captains main-healing (no doubts) - but there is a very good argument to be made that when teamed up with a skilled ministrel (especially if a lot of AoE damage is flying around) - Song Brother is the better choice. Which is just another example of why this skill is anything BUT broken.
The skill of the minstrel has little to do with the Shield vs Song analysis, as both brother skills increase heals/reduce damage by %'s. I'll create a scenario to explain, though historically you haven't been very receptive to things involving numbers.
Song: Say you've got a guard tank (dont want to think about warden heals as that complicates things) an HoH captain and a mini healer. [EDIT2: and the captain has FB. I don't know why a captain would ever think it a good idea to unslot FB in a group but I've seen it.] Say the mini healer and the capt are at 50% OGH. Tact Prowess To Arms would give both the captain and the mini--basically the only people healing--a +12.5% OGH averaged per minute. To determine how much extra heals that means you take their new heal modifier and divide by their old heal modifier. For each thats (100%+50%+12.5%)/(100%+50%)=1.0833, or 8.33% more heals to the whole fellowship thanks to Song-Bro To Arms. That's good no doubt.
Shield-bro gives you +4% inc healing to each non tank. The relative increase is going to vary by how much previous inc healing they had. It could vary from straight 4% more heals on a hobbit hunter with no inc healing rating to 3.6% more heals to a man champ who had 10% inc heals already (1.14/1.10). Lets just assume a relative increase of 3.8% more heals to the non tanks (which is what we're looking at in comparing AoE heals). Also, To Arms means -2.5% less incoming damage a minute. Also take into account that you have an extra HoT with Shield-bro. By what % that increases total heals going to the non tanks will vary each fight, but we can derive a % that that has to cross to make Shield-bro the better AoE healing tool.
So lets put the pieces together. Lets pick a base number of 600 HPS with no brother skill activated going to each non tanks of the fellowship. This HPS is generated solely by the Captain and Mini (don't want to bring Ward/LM into it yet). Also a damage TPS (Taken per second) of 650 damage to everyone. 600 HPS - 650 TPS means people are dying and we need captain brother buffs to the rescue. The actual HPS/TPS doesnt matter as we're just working in %'s. In a Song brother situation, that HPS goes from 600 to 600*1.0833=650 HPS and damage TPS is still 650 so we break even. Thats good, no one's dying now thanks to Song Brother. Now Shield-bro: HPS to the non tank fellows is now (600+X)*1.038, X being the inspire HoT. TPS goes from 650 to 650*(1-0.025)=633.7. Now, to break even on HPS minusTPS like Song-Bro, X has to be 10.5 HPS. Now I just picked an total HPS number so thats not valid in itself; we have to look at the relative% X is to the 600 I arbitrarily chose. Since 10.5/600=0.0175, so the Shield-bro inspire HoT needs to increase raw group heals by around 1.75% in order to equal Song-bro in non-tank heals.
I am relatively certain that HoT will account for more than approximately 1.75% of the total non-tank heals going around. We are a very significant minority of heals (especially AoE heals), after all. And if inspire is more than that threshold, then one can be reasonably sure Shield-Bro creates more net AoE heals than Song-bro in this situation. Again, thank the devs Song-bro has power.
I'm going to quote some stuff I said earlier cause it's relevant to this analysis:
Originally Posted by Omen_Kaizer
If the capt is not HoH, it oughta shift further to Shield. The absence of Tact Prowess (5r/2b build) would favor Shield more as well. Lower OGH on those healing is one factor makes Song look more effective. The crux of it all is by what % does ShBro inspire increase group heals when added to RC, Inspire Fellows, Chord of Salvation, maybe VS and maybe Conviction.
Also more inc healing already present on the non-tanks favors Song more. All these little variations will make very very slight differences. Only reason I'm mentioning it is to emphasize that the Shield-bro inspire HoT threshold of 1.75% of total heals is not hard and fast and is derived from some assumptions.
I conclude the AoE difference between Song and Shield is too slight to matter much. If my guys didn't need power I'd go with Shield at this point because it offers better tank heals by a good bit and a little better AoE if your Shield-bro inspire HoT accounts for anything. EDIT: Also I still default to Blade-bro no matter what I trait unless I figure we need survivability help.
Last edited by Omen_Kaizer; Jun 28 2012 at 03:56 AM.
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Originally Posted by 00CloughRN
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And ask any ministrel which fellowship brother he'd rather have on himself while countering huge AoE damage. You can bet real money it will be Song Brother.
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