Thread: What is your classes most useless skill?

Originally Posted by zalladi

Hunter:

• Hunter's Art - Long animation for a worthless buff
• Split Shot - Miniscule radius for less damage than Quick Shot
• Desperate Flight - Long cool down and not usable in the Ettenmoors
• Improved Strength of the Earth - Little healing, steals 5 seconds DPS time, can be interrupted
• Agile Rejoinder - Terrible healing and only usable from a Parry
• Swift Stroke - With Isengard, the buff is now obsolete
• Intent Concentration - Very long animation stealing precious DPS time
• Press Onward - Long induction to heal only 30% Morale, can be interrupted

I can go on.

All of the above, sadly

Some of it may have to do with what level you are. I use Split Shot and Swift Stroke all the time, on my level 29 hunter.

Hmmm...runekeeper useless skills:

I'll define useless as "the skill that I personally have used the least" which would be...

Essence of Winter.

I used this skill on purpose precisely once when doing the Huva boss in Dargnakh unleashed.
The debuff decreases incoming healing, and increases the power cost, so the adds eventually just ran out of power.

Pre update, I would have said Epic for the Ages, but since it was redone, I now love that skill!

I also almost never use Essence of Winter. I *do* find the debuffs to be quite nice, but the problems are many: 1) you've gotta tier Writ of Cold up to T3 to get the most out of it, 2) it has a long-ish induction and 3) Frozen Epilogue is instant-cast and puts the Essence of Winter and T3 WoC debuffs on the affected targets all at once.

For those reasons, I use Frozen Epilogue all the time and pretty much never use Essence of Winter. The -160sec Frozen Epilogue legacy is really nice on my DPS bag, too.

Vhivi, I don't really get what you're asking for. You want actual statistical evidence regarding one skill you think is useless, which many here have said is very, very useful, yet you don't demand the same evidence for the suggestions of others? No one has access to skill use data, let alone "skill effectiveness" data regarding utility skills. We have access to tools that measure DPS, healing, damage taken, and numbers of that nature, but no such tool is ever going to be able to measure the utility of a threat-related tool as those numbers are hidden from both the player and plugins and their ultimate effects are either "on" or "off". So, I'd say that it's unreasonable to expect anything other than anecdotes regarding Ebbing Ire. Here's another not-up-to-par anecdote for you: I will pull aggro on the troll boss in Foundry every single time, no matter the tank, unless I use Ebbing Ire before I use some of the bigger DPS boosts available to me. Sometimes, with lackluster tanks, I will pull aggro anyway, but running Foundry dozens and dozens of times and varying my Ebbing on that particular fight have shown me measure of its utility. And this is just one in a long list of fights where Ebbing *always* makes a difference (along with every wing boss in Orthanc).

I've suggested many skills so far in this thread that I find to be either of very limited use in *any* situation, or that are practically useless in all situations. I also think it's silly that you'd get upset with me for pointing out to others why a skill that's seemingly of limited use might have its uses in certain situations. I, for one, would welcome any such knowledge and would be glad to see more people coming up with clever uses for under-utilized skills.

As a minstrel: Song of Distraction

This skill used to be useful everywhere (even BG). Now because of the linked trash mobs it's useless in every raid since OD, and even in 6 man instances like Roots of Fangorn.

Hmm, as a Loremie, I rarely use bane flare. There's just not enough dead things around.
Inner flame I just use once in a long while--untraited (not too useful traited).
Otherwise, my skill use changes with my traits. Some get more use than others on certain lines.
The boglurker, but mostly because I rarely trait 5 deep into blue (love that thing, though)

As a mini, song of the dead. Again...not enough dead things.
Tale of frost and flame. S just...not really used. I kinda prefer battle/heroism meself.
Noble Cause/Heralds strike seems to be falling by the wayside, mostly because if a squishy gets within sniffing distance of a mob in an instance, anymore, they turn into paste...
Distraction is ok...out of instances. Soothing is more viable traited for the instacast (but I've not had aggro trouble while healing yet)

And that's all I can think of atm.

Originally Posted by GingerAj

Bane-Flare for LM ...

People keep saying continual air lore ...please don't diss it until you've tried it with improved flanking .

Indeed - have it on my bear all the time while I am soloing.

The one I use least is the imroved parry - or whatever it is called. With mez and heals and decent damage etc - I find myself in trouble so infrequently that I never remember to use it even when it would help.

So, no longer slotted. NOTE: This is just me, it is not useless in and of itself.

I thought it was broken. Now I know it is but by design.

Originally Posted by Vhivi

Guardian - Guardian's Promise. I whittle an acron whistle so a group member can summon me ... after I've already met them in person so I can hand it to them. I rarely group so this is even more of a waste for me.

Guardian's Promise actually works very well as a method of mailing yourself to someone. If both parties are in areas with mailboxes then just make the acorn, mail it to the other party and then they can summon you.

Ignoring fluff skills and emote, for me it has to be:

Champ- Fight On, penatly is prohibitve
Guardian- I don't know, I think I use them all really (yes even the acorn)
Rune Keeper- again I am struggling a bit, I di use most of them, although often when duoing harder content, but find a use for most of them
Hunter- Not to experienced on him, but I don't use really use desperate flight, maybe once. I just kill something, or run if its gone pear shaped.
Captain- Fighting Withdrawal I least use, though I wouldn't say its useless.
Burglar- I dunno, but probably the FS reset skills, the window is so small and they get used so infrequently the muscle and mental memory is not there, and they reset pretty short CD skills. Again not useless, but I don't use much.

The rest of my character are 40-50 or below, so I can't comment really.

One thing I would point out:

Originally Posted by Vhivi

Even in groups I don't see the point of the banners. The heralds have the same buffs and provide DPS as well. But of all the useless garbage that captains have, Withdraw has to be the most useless.

OK I completely disagree with most of what you say, but actually, given you admit to being solo, things like the rezzes and ires ARE useless to you, even if they are very important skills. I think it is a bit silly to suggest that others need to prove why they are right about its use in groups. Its not usefull to you, and that is fair enough. As a soloer, even if you group, your gear/dps/rotation will probably be negligible and unlikely to draw aggro (mine was the same after a break away after our first little one was born), so even then you won't find much use for it.

I agree withdraw is cappys least useful, esp solo, but the banners comment baffles a bit. You do realise banners buff your physical mastery (thus DPS) to compensate for the loss of the herald right? So actually that point is moot. In addition, it also lets you slot the strength from within trait, which makes muster courage a superb heal, on a regular CD, which more than compensates for the loss in herald mini heal (assuming you have a bannerman, not an archer). So you could argue they are the same, but for me the banner has two advantages both solo and in groups: 1) it doesn't run off and aggro random &&&&, but I guess even thats usefull situationally. 2) the DPS boost your banner provides is to you and your weapon which should be equipped with a damage type scroll (westernesse, beleriand etc) and thus is doing better damage, than a herald punting away with a butter knife doing common damage, so there you go, solo a banner is a very viable, and for me much better, choice.

Holy Valar! Talk about a necrotic thread

Originally Posted by Gylve

Vhivi, I don't really get what you're asking for.

Which is surprising because you answered it. Right here:

Originally Posted by Gylve

No one has access to skill use data, let alone "skill effectiveness" data regarding utility skills. We have access to tools that measure DPS, healing, damage taken, and numbers of that nature, but no such tool is ever going to be able to measure the utility of a threat-related tool as those numbers are hidden from both the player and plugins and their ultimate effects are either "on" or "off".

Well, that's too bad.

Originally Posted by Gylve

So, I'd say that it's unreasonable to expect anything other than anecdotes regarding one skill you think is useless, which many here have said is very, very useful.

I didn't "expect" them -- I hoped somebody had them.

However, I made a special point not to call any of the skills "useless" except in tongue-in-cheek types of statements. I said "least useful". I do take exception to the use of phrases like "very, very useful" however. Even your anecdote shows that Ebbing Ire isn't "very, very useful".

Originally Posted by Gylve

Sometimes, with lackluster tanks, I will pull aggro anyway,

So, in the instance where you have a lackluster tank, using Ebbing Ire has no practical use. You may as well not use it, because you're going to draw aggro regardless.

Sounds like you have a ZOMG-Cuisanart-on-steroids type of champion. My champion is more of a OHJEEZ-rusty-Cuisanart-with-anemia. When she's in a group, it doesn't matter what skills she uses, she hardly ever draws aggro. Only with less than lackluster tanks does she have a consistent problem, and in those cases she's actually a better tank anyway. In other words, she gets no value out of using Ebbing Ire.

The thing is, the kinds of groups I get into are far, far more common than the type you're in. You're in cutting edge, finely machined, balanced on a knife's edge types of groups. I'm sure the slightest variation can topple that type of setup. My groups are cobbled together with Erector Sets and Tinker Toys. A little variation isn't even going to be noticeable.

Originally Posted by Gylve

I also think it's silly that you'd get upset with me...

Whoa! Back the truck up. I never got upset. I asked for some kind of hard data for you to show me the value. You don't have it. I'm actually disappointed that you don't have it because that would have helped me understand. Anecdotes are hardly useful as you can see above.

Originally Posted by Elgalandir

...but the banners comment baffles a bit. You do realise banners buff your physical mastery (thus DPS) to compensate for the loss of the herald right?

What's to get baffled about? I don't understand. That's pretty clear.

Originally Posted by Elgalandir

So you could argue they are the same,

Actually, that's what confuses me I see "As a captain you should use banners" but, just like the Ebbing Ire conversation above, no one is able to express why.

Originally Posted by Elgalandir

...but for me the banner has two advantages both solo and in groups: 1) it doesn't run off and aggro random &&&&, but I guess even thats usefull situationally. 2) the DPS boost your banner provides is to you and your weapon which should be equipped with a damage type scroll (westernesse, beleriand etc) and thus is doing better damage, than a herald punting away with a butter knife doing common damage, so there you go, solo a banner is a very viable, and for me much better, choice.

You're going to have the damage type scroll regardless and your Beleriand damage isn't going to help when you're hip deep in wights. The herald provides consistent damage regardless.

Also, the Herald is a huge advantage in the epic line quests since it benefits from inspiration. I don't have problems with random aggro. I've used pet classes as far back as EverQuest so know how to keep tabs on them. That little butter-knife wielder has saved my bacon any number of times when I had adds. Captains are rather squishy, and have inconsistent self heals. Having a herald take aggro, even for a short time, let's me knock off one opponent while keeping the herald up, then combining to take the other down. A banner has never done that for me.

In a solo situation (or skirmish which I enjoy a great deal), I'll take the herald over a banner any day of the week and twice on sundays.

Originally Posted by Vhivi

...like the Ebbing Ire conversation above, no one is able to express why.

As a dps class, if i can do 25% more dps, and allow every other dps class in my group to do more, i'm doing a better job. This is why the champions with extensive experience at the class(it sounds like much more experience in all facets of championing than you) believe that rising/ebbing ire is a very useful skill.



I understand why ebbing/rising ire would be useless as a solo/casual player though. Who needs it if you never do enough dps to outperform the tank's aggro skills?

This thread has given me more respect for champs, and more understanding of why some champs seem to sink like a stone, and others have little aggro problem.

For my minstrel, I think song of soothing is the one that should be useful, but isn't for me. If I have aggro, I am more likely to pop my bubble, use that fear skill, or flop. When I don't have aggro, I am usually too busy healing to have time for things with long inductions. I also don't use tale of frost and flame, or most of the anthems. Also, I dropped herald's strike off my bar really early on. I forget that it even exists sometimes. I'm sure it is useful, but I've been playing the way I do for so long that I can't see it ever going back on my bar.

As for my captain, never used Fighting Withdrawal. Rarely use Time of Need.

Desperate Flight is an essential travel skill! I don't use it as a panic button, in fact I'd completely forgotten that I could actually use it that way, I use it as a quick route out of somewhere like a cave.

Agile Rejoiner and Split Shot aren't even on my skillbars.

Most useless minstrel-skill so far is the new Call of Eärendil. It decreases the targets light mitigation which sounds nice and all, but it can only be used in Harmony, so you cant benefit from it yourself in terms of dps. I don't even go into Harmony either, unless healing dps-group in Draigooch.

So far i cant see the purpose. Maybe helping other classes or other minstrels deal more dmg for 10 seconds? Problem is majority of classes don't even deal consistent light damage. So i basically have a new skill that only works in a stance i never use and will probably only benefit the dps of 1-2 people in my fellowship. I'm pretty disappointed.

Originally Posted by Vhivi

You're going to have the damage type scroll regardless and your Beleriand damage isn't going to help when you're hip deep in wights. The herald provides consistent damage regardless.

You will have the Beleriand damage regardless, but its your heralds damage that isn't. Your weapon does beleriand damage, but your herald hits with common damage. Your enemy recieves most of of your damage and less of his, as in comparison to common damage, more of your damage gets through to the enemies morale than his, so your heralds contribution is weaker, pound for pound.

When you wield a banner, the damage he would usually do, is added to your attacks (its actually a rating buff dependant on banners), and thus converted to a special damage type, so you personally hit harder than you do with a herald with you, so more of the damage gets through to the mobs morale, as the enemy mitigates the special damage types less.

If you trait to reflect blade brother back to yourself, and 'to arms' the herald, then solo, the archer or war herald allow you to use the blade brother skill to buff yourself, increasing your damage, and making them roughly on a par damage wise (you used to be able to SB the banner too, but we can't anymore ). But using the archer to get the most out of this, you take quite a large hit morale wise.

In a group though (which was what you said you didn't see the point of), it is a real waste putting shield brother skills on a herald, as you want to be putting blade brother on your friendly champ or burglar please (though if you do, they will do superb dps, and might need that useless ebbing ire skill... doh!) In this case, with the heralds dps lower without the BB buffs, you may as well go with a banner, swapping the heralds common damage for extra special damage for yourself, getting the buffs back off the BB on the champ, and stop your group living in fear of your herald randomly running off down a slope into a mass group of mobs!

The flip side to this solo is the tanking utility if you need/want it, but personally I just tank them all myself with banners, I have never found cappys remotely squishy, quite the opposite to be honest. As for the inspiration buff; it makes the instances so trivial, that if you find you need a herald to have more health, then...sure if you find that helps. Lets be honest though, with that buff you can go afk, and auto attack stuff to death, so maybe you can go afk and let the herald do it for you, I guess thats a distinct advantage!

If you think you have we have an inconsistent self heal, you should definately try the 'strength from within' trait, whatever you choose, as this give as very potent and frequent self heal, you can heal yourself on level for about the amount of an 'on-level' morale pot every 30 seconds.

Originally Posted by Vhivi

I see "As a captain you should use banners"

I'm not usure where you see it, but I'm not sure its reflected everywhere. On my server, PUG groups tend to prefer banners as some cappys with heralds can be a little less carefull with their pets than you claim to be, so when heading into the unknown, they would rather play it safe until they know you or your ability. However, I think most would agree that solo certainly, it can be a personal choice, with pros and cons to both see this thread, for example, which is overwhelmingly balanced on it being a choice. Please bear in mind, I haven't tried to suggest heralds, archers, or banners ARE better, I merely stated why they are comparable, and why I prefer them.

Originally Posted by Vhivi

Even in groups I don't see the point of the banners

I hope you now see the point, even if you prefer heralds. Damage is about the same, slightly better when I test my rotations with CA, (and much better when the BB is on a champ instead!), but your milage may vary, there is also less likely hood of poor pathing ruining it, and of course, if your poor old herald dies, you'll have to use a flag then anyway because you can't summon them in combat.

i think the skill i use least is the song-brother, i always go bladebrother on chump or shieldbrother on tank
except command respect, that is utterly fluff

Originally Posted by Altair6

I thought it was broken. Now I know it is but by design.

I use it all the time. The only skills i think needs improvement is the Hunter: improved str of earth and Press onward. Improved str of earth in my opinion does not give enough for the hassle it is to use it. Press onward needs to be redone to match current lvls moral and dps outputs etc.

I pretty much use the all the other skills and think they work just fine for my style of play.