Thread: What is your classes most useless skill?

Originally Posted by ISeeStars

I dont want to hurt anybody, but most of those who left posts here, are kind of low skilled players. Sure some skills are used more, and some less, but none of skills are useless, since you can use part of them in pvp, part in pvp, and part just in sparrs. I'd suggest you to try new way of playing this game, and you'll get become more useful then before

While I agree that some skills are poorly understood and underutilized AND that different skills are valuable in different play styles, I certainly do not agree with your conclusion, that most of those who posted here are "low skilled players."

The term "useless", as I understand it in the context of skills, are skills that have minimal value for the room they take up on the skill bar. If there are other skills that can be used instead, skills that have greater impact for the same or similar power costs, time to invoke, and other considerations, then the initial skill can be considered "useless". Oftentimes a dev comes up with an idea for a skill but it doesn't get tweaked properly. With a few minor changes it might be come useful. Sometimes a skill is useful at lower levels, but doesn't "level up" with the player as they progress to higher levels and becomes useless. Sometimes a skill is so situational that it almost never gets used.

Oftentimes a player considers a skill useless because what they'd really like is to trade it in for another skill that they would find far more useful.

In other words, I wouldn't be drawing conclusions about a player's skill level based on how they feel about some of their skills.

I am th OP my intention was to point out that as we progressed up the path to our current level cap that a few skills (to me) seemed to be religated to the "neglected pile" some skils got updated sometimes to the dismay of class, others have seen a little love and attention. the point is that as we have leveled there are a few skills that havent scaled to match the reality of the game as it is to day and are there for underutilized.

Originally Posted by SapienChavez

youre boggled? you said, "But of all the useless garbage that captains have" implying, no SAYING, that we have useless skills. and many, at that.

Capns have none. yes, i understand relativity and that is MY point. relativly, withdrawl is, but its is NOT useless, in general.


you clearly said, "But of all the useless garbage that captains have"

garbage. your choice of word. seriously, youre flipping this back on me?


you need to revisit the class.

Yes, I'm boggled. I notice you didn't give any specific input. Maybe you can't, hmmm. No, instead you want to jump on a tongue in cheek, this is my personal experience from my personal playstyle comment, and you think "revisiting the class" is useful feedback.

Yes indeed, *boggle*

Originally Posted by Fralin

What about those that do t2 Orthanc and have to use it not to pull aggro and to increase group dps throughout the figh? But then again, you said it's useless so I suppose there's nogroup that does that either since the skill is totally useless.

You can't increase group DPS simply by raising one character's threat. I'm sure what you mean is -- you ASSUME the other players are holding back on DPS and adding threat to the tank will allow them to ease their restraints and do more DPS. Are you so sure they need to hold back in the first place? Or that they even ARE holding back? If so, please let us all know how you figured that out. Be sure to back up your claims with empirical data.

Besides, I didn't say useless. Only dunderhead up there is taking a tongue-in-cheek comment out of context.

You DO understand the difference between "most useless" and "useless" right? I did explain it earlier. The "most useful" skill you have is also known as the "least useless" if that helps any. There isn't a single skill on any character that is "useless". Even the fluff skills have their place. Maybe not in a raid. Weatherstock is coming. They'll be greatly useful there!

On an individual basis, though, a player may never have need to use a skill. That skill then, to them, becomes ... what? You know the answer. Just shout it right out!

Bane-Flare for LM ...

People keep saying continual air lore ...please don't diss it until you've tried it with improved flanking .

I believe I have three or four on my Minstrel, lol I can't pick which one is the most useless though. I have never really gotten a chance to use Song of the Dead because it takes so long. Song of Distraction is also a toughy because unless a mob is by themselves, very rarely, it just makes them so they won't find you for awhile. However, the most useless of them all is Song of Soothing in my opinion, its supposed to decrease your aggro but it takes SO long to cast, the time is takes casting the mob probably already killed me.

While I don't have a Champ, my wife does and I've raided and grouped enough to know thsat ebbing ire is a very useful skill in that environment. I can understand if someone is mostly solo and groups very little that they would find the skill 'useless'. There are a number of skills that are 'useless' solo.

Originally Posted by ElvenKing_of_Old

I believe I have three or four on my Minstrel, lol I can't pick which one is the most useless though. I have never really gotten a chance to use Song of the Dead because it takes so long. Song of Distraction is also a toughy because unless a mob is by themselves, very rarely, it just makes them so they won't find you for awhile. However, the most useless of them all is Song of Soothing in my opinion, its supposed to decrease your aggro but it takes SO long to cast, the time is takes casting the mob probably already killed me.

Try spamming the song of soothing after a few heals so you DON'T get the number 1 aggro spot and lower yourself on the aggro tree, thats how I use it

Originally Posted by Vhivi

You can't increase group DPS simply by raising one character's threat. I'm sure what you mean is -- you ASSUME the other players are holding back on DPS and adding threat to the tank will allow them to ease their restraints and do more DPS. Are you so sure they need to hold back in the first place? Or that they even ARE holding back? If so, please let us all know how you figured that out. Be sure to back up your claims with empirical data.

Alright, now I'm pretty sure you're just trolling. You're really asking someone to PROVE that a DPS'er has ever pulled aggro?

Originally Posted by Gylve

Alright, now I'm pretty sure you're just trolling. You're really asking someone to PROVE that a DPS'er has ever pulled aggro?

Yeah, it's pretty well known that at the top tier, if a hunter / champ / runekeeper goes into full DPS mode (i.e. Strength stance, etc) and ignores threat, while on the other hand you have a guard / warden whose only job is to hold threat against that guy, the DPS is going to eventually win. And by 'eventually' I mean 'lose aggro for even a split second at any point in the fight', since that's all it takes in the big raids.

Originally Posted by ElvenKing_of_Old

I believe I have three or four on my Minstrel, lol I can't pick which one is the most useless though. I have never really gotten a chance to use Song of the Dead because it takes so long. Song of Distraction is also a toughy because unless a mob is by themselves, very rarely, it just makes them so they won't find you for awhile. However, the most useless of them all is Song of Soothing in my opinion, its supposed to decrease your aggro but it takes SO long to cast, the time is takes casting the mob probably already killed me.

Note comment above for Song of Soothing, it's very useful.
Song of Distraction is very good if you just don't feel like fighting the mobs. It's an AoE and can affect 3 mobs, so you either don't need to fight at all or you lessen the number of mobs that will be pulled. It's very handy to have.

For song of the dead, there just aren't many dead mobs in the game at the moment so it isn't used often; it's best if it can be used out of combat so that the induction isn't an issue. But yeah, it's been a long time since I've used it (OD raid and BG before that), but it is still situationally useful.

I think the skill I don't have on my tool bar is Call to the Fellowship. I was always forgetting to use it and I finally needed the toolbar slot for something useful.

I actually somewhat like Enrage. It's very good for "omg, the minstrel has aggro on the boss and is dying"-situations which seems to happen a lot in my groups lately (yes, I know I need to find better tanks and hunters/champs ... whatever who are willing and able to take aggro from the healer).

That said, I'd go for a draw between split shot and df for hunter. With the possible addition of hunter's art.

Hunter's art could be easily improved though. It has power regen boost in endurance, however going into endurance, using hunter's art and going back to precision costs more power than it gives. A significant increase in the power regen would save hunter's art for me. (Please note though that there are much better skills to upgrade for hunter, just wanted to comment the skill could be salvagable)

Defiler:
Curse of Rotten Flesh
- +5 % incoming damage is nothing
- too long induction
- i use this skill but it should be improved imo

Gooey Gourd
- +20 % all skill inductions - this is just funny compared with Addle for example

Loremaster:
Air-lore
- if untraited it is absolutely useless skill

Loremaster, defiler and reaver class should be revamped imo.

Of course, this does not count "boast" and the likes?

As a champ, I agree that ebbing ire/rising ire is important. In groups, if you're doing massive DPS, it comes at a risk of stealing aggro. You need to vent off the aggro you accumulate to the tank in the group to prevent that happening. A tank losing aggro is one of the worst things to happen to a group. The mob runs amok, the healer starts having to heal everyone, and soon enough, the healer can't do this, and runs out of power, or dies. When this happens, the fight is over. And if you're tanking, well, you're a champion. You need as many sources of aggro as you can get. Champion's challenge is not enough.
I understand what the poster was saying though. It is rather useless for solo playing, but it's certainly not the most useless skill, and shouldn't be put in the same league as fight on or exchange of blows, both useless moves for most situations.

Most useless skill is probably Fight on. I've never used it because it looked so terrible, but I don't want to. a 75% drop in DPS on a DPS class? that turns you into a useless waste of a teamslot for the rest of the fight after using it. All of that for 30 seconds. Second is exchange of blows. Only reason I ever use it is to try and complete the class deed just so I have it for if ever I need it. Exchange of blows might have been helpful at a lower level, but at 75, 50 damage is nothing. it means nothing to the fight and is a waste of fervour.

I can't believe none of the Champs here listed Boast...

All it does is act as a forced emote to those around you, and gives no bonuses... level 38

Originally Posted by Thronst

Of course, this does not count "boast" and the likes?

As a champ, I agree that ebbing ire/rising ire is important. In groups, if you're doing massive DPS, it comes at a risk of stealing aggro. You need to vent off the aggro you accumulate to the tank in the group to prevent that happening. A tank losing aggro is one of the worst things to happen to a group. The mob runs amok, the healer starts having to heal everyone, and soon enough, the healer can't do this, and runs out of power, or dies. When this happens, the fight is over. And if you're tanking, well, you're a champion. You need as many sources of aggro as you can get. Champion's challenge is not enough.
I understand what the poster was saying though. It is rather useless for solo playing, but it's certainly not the most useless skill, and shouldn't be put in the same league as fight on or exchange of blows, both useless moves for most situations.

Most useless skill is probably Fight on. I've never used it because it looked so terrible, but I don't want to. a 75% drop in DPS on a DPS class? that turns you into a useless waste of a teamslot for the rest of the fight after using it. All of that for 30 seconds. Second is exchange of blows. Only reason I ever use it is to try and complete the class deed just so I have it for if ever I need it. Exchange of blows might have been helpful at a lower level, but at 75, 50 damage is nothing. it means nothing to the fight and is a waste of fervour.

hah... beat me to it... by seconds

Forget classes, how about the champion of all useless (but still temptingly bad-###) skills: Head-Butt!

Originally Posted by Vhivi

You can't increase group DPS simply by raising one character's threat. I'm sure what you mean is -- you ASSUME the other players are holding back on DPS and adding threat to the tank will allow them to ease their restraints and do more DPS. Are you so sure they need to hold back in the first place? Or that they even ARE holding back? If so, please let us all know how you figured that out. Be sure to back up your claims with empirical data.

Get a group into Orthanc t2 consisting of players with high dps and add a good tank... You know what, roll a character on WW and I'll invite you to a raid where i won't use Ire and you can see for yourself what it does. As for numbers, no ire ~30% less dps for me, then again, I'm built for maximum carnage. and yes, other people hold back as well. Perhaps you, my friend, would like to give some data as to why dps cannot possible pull aggro?
As for my data... people doing 500+ more dps with ire... I might be wrong, but it seems pretty clear to me that ire helps group dps.

Originally Posted by DavadaOT

Yeah, it's pretty well known that at the top tier, if a hunter / champ / runekeeper goes into full DPS mode (i.e. Strength stance, etc) and ignores threat, while on the other hand you have a guard / warden whose only job is to hold threat against that guy, the DPS is going to eventually win. And by 'eventually' I mean 'lose aggro for even a split second at any point in the fight', since that's all it takes in the big raids.

Well known facts are not always what people want to hear though. Even a tank in full threatbuild would eventually loose aggro to the blasters... not that it would matter, a fully threat traited tank would die too fast in most t2 cases anyway.

Originally Posted by ElvenKing_of_Old

I believe I have three or four on my Minstrel, lol I can't pick which one is the most useless though. I have never really gotten a chance to use Song of the Dead because it takes so long. Song of Distraction is also a toughy because unless a mob is by themselves, very rarely, it just makes them so they won't find you for awhile. However, the most useless of them all is Song of Soothing in my opinion, its supposed to decrease your aggro but it takes SO long to cast, the time is takes casting the mob probably already killed me.

While I didn't list it in my original post, I also could do without song of the dead.

My problems with Song of Soothing are the same as yours. It is very long. Plus I haven't really struggled with accidentally pulling aggro when in group. That isn't to say it never happens, but even when it does in my experience, the tank and other tougher folks are on top of the situation, so it just hasn't ever been something that would qualify as a problem for me. I give myself exactly zero credit for this, all the the credit for my safety goes to the absolutely fabulous tanks, and other tougher classes I have played with, I believe it is their awesomeness that keeps me from ever really needing that skill.

I did want to stick up for Distraction though. I don't use it very often when I pve, unless there are a lot of mobs, or unless I am feeling lazy, but in the moors I use it all the time, so we don't have to pull npc's while chasing creeps around, or so we can pull just a tyrant and not any other npc's, etc. But I can also see how for some it wouldn't exactly be an important skill, especially if you don't go to the moors. So I'm not knocking your opinion or anything like that, I was just letting you know how I use it in case it helps.

I think it is fun to read what everyone thinks of particular skill based on their experiences. I have seen how some folks are making it an excuse to lets call it 'debate spiritedly', but I think that sharing why/why not is great for everyone. Seeing how skills work/don't work (and why) from different perspectives can teach us all something.

Merciless strike. I don't think I have ever used it at all.

Warden: Javelin of Deadly Force. I could probably lose three fingers and still count the number of times I've traited JODF on that hand. Among gambits, I pretty much never use Offensive Strike, Combination Strike, Piercing Strike, or Impressive Flourish. Maddening Strike used to be up there, but I'll use it now before a DoW to build the buffs. And Boar's Rush is mostly useless but I'll use it when I'm bored because it has a great animation

Burglar: Track Treasure and Summon Peddlar are pretty useless, but they're almost fluff skills along the lines of Practical Joke etc, so not sure I should include them. so I guess I'd say: WPS and Confound - I absolutely love the idea behind these skills, but they're so rarely used. WPS becomes useful with the Draigoch set, but useless again once you have the Orthanc set (when you have to use specific armor, trait 2 specific traits, and have a specific legacy or two for a skill to be worthwhile, yeah, its pretty useless). As for Confound, even when I'm running mischief in groups, there are rarely extra mobs that need to be mezzed that we don't have enough mezzers for that also will conveniently group close enough without other mobs I don't want to mez nearby to take the mez away from the off target(s, if traited) that I want mezzed, and also far enough away that they'll not be woken up by AoE...yeah. I can lock down two targets easily enough with Riddle and Quite a Snag (assuming a root is sufficient; i.e. the mob doesn't range, induct, or build corruptions). the closest to "necessary" was in OD to time to remove an Anger buff, but even then there were better options at our disposal that were easier to time and on shorter cooldowns, either from myself or another raid member. both can still be fun to play with occasionally, but they're pretty much never necessary or optimal.

Captain: heralds. never use them, ever. I feel I lose more DPS by not having a war banner slotted than I gain from running a herald. even if I wanted to use them to offtank something (I can think of maybe once or twice at low levels I may have done this), they tend to die very quickly and lose aggro practically with the first heal you throw them. yes i'm aware you can trait to buff them, but my feeling is the same as with WPS above - when you have to waste trait slots that could be used on better things to make a skill useful (and I'm unconvinced that it becomes useful even then), then its pretty much not

Minstrel: there are a lot of skills I rarely use (Song of Aid, Call to Greatness, Call to the Fellowship, Song of Soothing, Song of the Dead, Codas (I do use Coda more often in Harmony, but I'm rarely in Harmony, at least in difficult content)), but I don't know that I'd call any of them useless. Well, Call to the Fellowship maybe. Song of the Dead post OD and with LMs able to mez the dead now. Scribe/Mentor skills I'd call mainly fluff like Peddlar/Track Treasure for the burg, so won't include them.

Champ: Exchange of Blows? and...Brutal Strikes (ok, I mainly added that to get a rise, but I don't use it often compared to most champs apparently. I freely admit I'm a noob champ though). Never use Controlled Burn now either (sadly I levelled my champ after CB no longer persisted until out of combat, but it was still very good. now it seems not so much) and have actually replaced it with Ferocious Strikes (which I also don't have much occasion to use, but more than CB nowadays)

Runekeeper:

Flurry of Words - Only use it when I feel there's not enough skill lag, damage is very low too.
Frozen Epilogue - I love the sound the skill makes, but not too impressive for a 5min cd skill.


Hunter:

Read hunter forums for over 10k detailed threads about hunter skills


Burglar:

Track treasure - Should stack with the ore/wood/scholar tracking skills and while in Thorins halls it always lures me to the puzzle vault for some reason.


Guardian:
Summon Tinker - Spend more money on repairs and can't sell stuff?

Originally Posted by Vhivi

Thanks for the explanation. That's about what I saw the effect would be from the description. Your example, by the way, is likely only going to occur at the start of a fight. In normal fights, the tank is going to get heads and shoulders above the rest in aggro. The rest will be pouring their Damage into the target at max rate. Adjusting the aggro won't affect that.

LOL!

Just... LOL.

That is especially true after the RK gets a GINORMOUS lighting crit, or the hunter devastates for 11k.... right.

Originally Posted by Elemiire

LOL!

Just... LOL.

That is especially true after the RK gets a GINORMOUS lighting crit, or the hunter devastates for 11k.... right.

There'sonly two explanations to this kind of viewpoint:

1. They have a godlike tank that never looses aggro (VERY unlikely)
2. They have subpar rotations and/or gear and hence cannot push optimal dps (VERY likely)

OK champ here. But i wont disagree in many.

I like boast, its a funny skill (but of course i would prefer it to give some stat bonuses or something)

I dont agree with some about Ire. Its a really important skill. you become threat manipulator which can be really helpful. i would agree that in some tough situations its a bit uncomfortable to use cause you have to find the target and be in distance and all.So if they could do it more like: find automatic the guy with the biggest threat would help i think...

I laughed and totally agree about headbutt. I laughed cause i forgot it evens exist. i think this though its a race skill yes?

Never used Ardur. First time i tried was after Roi and we died.Don't say its bad skill just really didn't found the will to learn it.
Fight On i agree on all and i will add that blood rage...Before Roi i used it on pvp at least, now never.

Merciful strike its not a finisher that's certain! But deals some good dmg and its usable! Before Roi i had forgotten it for 2 years and discover it when i was searching my skills and saying ....wow i had a skill like that?

I dont know really well the other classes thou i have lvl 75 alts but here some :
I like Acorn on guardians.very useful mostly before end game.

Split Shot needs improvement.

Rk essay of fire almost sleep until induction ends. In general fire skills its too tiring to play with them.

Desperate Flight by far.

lm- knowledge of a lore-master

I think i used this once on a guardian in evendim? but mostly it just sits in the corner of my hotbars

Song of Soothing doesn't help me very much. It takes too long to induce, and as I mostly play solo anyway, I'm still the default target for all the angry monsters chasing after me.

NI wanna say that ebbing ire is very useful when im running with same level folks and hit shing shing and draw alot of aggro to me.

As for ardour the ability to BPE isnt enough to outweigh fervors bonuses.
Exchange of blows, blows imo. Useful if tanking but never in fervor
Fight On is useful if LI bonus is maxed and add dps buff at end of fight to finish it off and then stop. Also has to be in the certain situation. And u can use it to turn the tide of a battle with alot of adds, just that everyone else needs to keep goingcauuse u aint gonna be much help.
I find feral strikes only really useful for corruption removal but thats just me
Dire need is only really good to be used constantly if traited


Merciful strike is only really valuable with two or three pips
I always foget to hit battle acuity while im out of fervor cause it robbing two fervor for no reason is stupid you

Best Champ skills are of course Boast and Let's Fly. Anyone who disagrees is just wrong.

Also, what's wrong with Controlled Burn? It's a basically free DPS and power buff stacked with your stance. Any DPS buffs champs can get are very useful in the Moors.

I always forget I have merciful strike it's so useless. Ardour might be useful now, but I never tried it since the buff and don't have room on my skill bars to add something else I'm not sure would be any good. It was useless before though.

Originally Posted by Bennybo

Fight On is useful if LI bonus is maxed and add dps buff at end of fight to finish it off and then stop. Also has to be in the certain situation. And u can use it to turn the tide of a battle with alot of adds, just that everyone else needs to keep goingcauuse u aint gonna be much help.

But even then, you can't even trigger it unless you're at 60% morale or less. The situations where you'd want to use it and *can* use it just don't seem to align themselves very often at all. More importantly, there's just not room for it in most builds. CB is too good to ever unslot, same with RB unless it's a pure single target fight, in which case you'd be much better off with CBR in that slot, and Ferocious is awesome.

Originally Posted by Reniannen

No mention of Time of Need? I never ever _needed_ that skill.

I actually use it alot before a pull to get War-Cry up. Other than that, its pretty situational. Sometimes use it to get a Routing Cry stun (when traited) or an emergency power/morale heal. I have a swap on Badge with Escape from Darkness Cooldown, Shield of the Dunedan Cooldown and Time of Need Morale Cost + Time of Need Cooldown.

Situational != Useless

I am completely SHOCKED that no one has mentioned the most OP skill in the entire game.

• Guards use it to initiate pulls and show those mobs who's da boss...Wardens use it on Guards when the guards say they can't tank.
• Ministrel's wanna use it on the Hunter who pulls aggro and then whines that they didn't get any heals and are dead; unfortunately, the hunter is already dead.
• Loremaster's would love to use it but are way to wimpy and would probably end up hitting themselves in the face if they tried.
• Champion's don't use it because they would need to let go of their sword and you know that ain't happening. It's actually pretty useful for hunters so that they can run like little girls when a mob gets to close to them.
• Burgs may or may not use it; when I find a burg i'll be sure to ask.
• Captain's use it along with motivating speech to get the party started....fist pump it up.
• Runekeepers, unfortunately, cannot use it...but everyone loves to use it on those lore-breakers.

Of course, I'm talking about Upper-Cut FTW; truly the most OP skill in the entire game of LOTRO!

My main is a Guardian and all the 2-handed skills are my useless skills. Since i use a 2.6k+shield i have never even bothered to put a 2-handed skill on my bars.totally a waste of space, but it did give me unwanted and unuseful skills as i was leveling to make it seem like there was progression.

Originally Posted by Reniannen

No mention of Time of Need? I never ever _needed_ that skill.

Really? I sort of like it. I have the cooldown/morale cost legacies on my swap emblem. Every 2.5 minutes I can get a rallying or war cry or (traited) routing cry stun on demand, what is not to like about that? Now that cooldown is sort of reasonable (used to be 15 minutes), you no longer save it for emergencies...

Originally Posted by Galahadur

I actually use it alot before a pull to get War-Cry up. Other than that, its pretty situational. Sometimes use it to get a Routing Cry stun (when traited) or an emergency power/morale heal. I have a swap on Badge with Escape from Darkness Cooldown, Shield of the Dunedan Cooldown and Time of Need Morale Cost + Time of Need Cooldown.

We do not sow. I mean swap.
War-cry: I do not see the benefit of popping it up before combat, either something's going to die soon which means you get a defeat response anyway, or it's a long boss fight in which case the benefit is negligible in the long run (imho) - unless you're not fighting. And your lowered morale pool will only serve to distract healers (I guess I could be doing that but I don't see the point)
Routing Cry: only useful when you're traited and absolutely positively need to stun something, can't say I ever needed to do that
Rallying Cry: If it is an emergency - i.e. the whole group is going low on Morale - I would be low on Morale too, I am not going to cut my own throat in that case.

Situational != Useless

Actually, uselessness is a subjective measure

where
S_T - situations Time of Need is needed for
S_A - situations I encounter

Just talking about my main (Guardian) it has to be Thrust. Its one of three that follows on from Retaliation and I never use it.

Originally Posted by Reniannen

We do not sow. I mean swap.
War-cry: I do not see the benefit of popping it up before combat, either something's going to die soon which means you get a defeat response anyway, or it's a long boss fight in which case the benefit is negligible in the long run (imho) - unless you're not fighting. And your lowered morale pool will only serve to distract healers (I guess I could be doing that but I don't see the point)
Routing Cry: only useful when you're traited and absolutely positively need to stun something, can't say I ever needed to do that
Rallying Cry: If it is an emergency - i.e. the whole group is going low on Morale - I would be low on Morale too, I am not going to cut my own throat in that case.


Actually, uselessness is a subjective measure

where
S_T - situations Time of Need is needed for
S_A - situations I encounter

Cleary you've never done any meaningful T2 raids if you think War-Cry from the start of a boss fight is useless.

Like i said, its situational... not useless. Very useful for some fights, almost required. Very useful for PvMP.

Just because you have a limited S_A it doesn't mean that everyone's is also. It was even better when it would reset your cry of vengeance, but since you've never used it, you wouldn't remember that anyway...

Originally Posted by Galahadur

Cleary you've never done any meaningful T2 raids if you think War-Cry from the start of a boss fight is useless.

Then impart your knowledge and don't insult me. And no I don't think I did, last raid I did (skraids excluded) was BG, I don't think that even has a T2 setting.

Like i said, its situational... not useless. Very useful for some fights, almost required. Very useful for PvMP.

Like I said, it's subjective.

Just because you have a limited S_A it doesn't mean that everyone's is also. It was even better when it would reset your cry of vengeance, but since you've never used it, you wouldn't remember that anyway...

If I need to reset CoV we are terribly, terribly screwed. I don't think being prepared for the worst case scenario is a priority. And that was the traited version anyway, wasn't it?

Don't forget fighting withdrawl has it's uses in PvP. It's situational but it has gotten me some kills I wouldn't otherwise have gotten. I would certainly miss it if it was gone.

Originally Posted by Gylve

Alright, now I'm pretty sure you're just trolling. You're really asking someone to PROVE that a DPS'er has ever pulled aggro?

Nope. That's not what I asked. Better go back and read it again. Oh, and you better go back and check on the definition of "trolling" while you're at it. I got lamblasted because I find a skill "less than useful" by people who can't show me why I'm wrong. The fact is, they shouldn't even be trying. That's not what this thread is about. They (and you) should be posting what skills YOU find the least useful, not trying to convince other people why their choices are wrong.

Originally Posted by Fralin

Get a group into Orthanc t2 consisting of players with high dps and add a good tank... You know what, roll a character on WW and I'll invite you to a raid where i won't use Ire and you can see for yourself what it does. As for numbers, no ire ~30% less dps for me, then again, I'm built for maximum carnage. and yes, other people hold back as well. Perhaps you, my friend, would like to give some data as to why dps cannot possible pull aggro?
As for my data... people doing 500+ more dps with ire... I might be wrong, but it seems pretty clear to me that ire helps group dps.

That is known as anecdotal info, not empirical. I'll assume that you don't have any. That's fine, it takes a great deal of effort (and agreement from the rest of the group) to gather that type of information. As for me providing data, I'm not the one making the claim. I'm actually relying on you to educate me. So far you haven't. Your only example is from a situation where a small percentage of the player base will even see, let alone complete, on level. That's ammunition for me making the ebbing/rising ire skill one of the least useful.

It's a situational skill used in a small part of the game; that puts it into the subset of least useful skills by default. Other skills you use every fight regardless; those are the most useful skills. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that in the places you've described that you don't find the skill useful. I believe you when you say that you do.

Originally Posted by Elemiire

That is especially true after the RK gets a GINORMOUS lighting crit, or the hunter devastates for 11k.... right.

And the ebbing or rising ire would help with that? Besides I said "normal" fights. A huge crit is an outlier.