Thread: Please make the OP guards a viable DPS

Originally Posted by oaceen

are you saying these classes can't fill a dps spot?

Compared to Hunters, RKs, Burgs, and Champs no...
But that's the point, the classes don't need to be made more even for balance, make all the classes more even by strengthening their roles primary, secondary roles are by necessity secondary. Guards have decent enough output in OP, with the right traits and gear to play them, but that's their secondary role. The posters with an opposing view are wanting dps equivalent to actual DPS classes just so they can go on the landscape, in the moors, in raids and instances and not tank which is not the point of a guard. and no I'm not attacking you Oac or anyone else, but yes I am harrassing you becaus eI wuvs ya . though I do agree when in OP loss of power is a huge issue sometimes and should be adjusted, but only because it's indicitive of a bigger issue, power drains quickly when you are tanking anything that requires more input than spamming Challenge, Fray The Edge, and Engage. Tanking anything that takes longer than 3 minutes for the DPS to kill starts hurting the guards power, but not too badly since you do have options to restore power as long as you aren't in OP.

I think guards are doing ok and if any adjustments should be made, they should be made to increase the value of having a guard tanking in any group, and that includes nerfing Champs, Wardens, and Minstrels in regards to tanking. As far as solo questing, I've never had an issue ever anywhere in the whole freaking game of not being able to do something as a guard solo and I do landscape quests/deeds traited and geared for raid tanking in sword and board. The only time I ever die is because I pull upwards of 12 or more mobs at once, or I try to solo something that is just out of my reach.

I would only suggest giving Guards another heal or something on par with Wardens to make us have that one extra healing skill to pop when all other skills and pots are on cd and the group healer is down or busy and we are gonna die.

Originally Posted by DuneBug

They shouldn't...
Captain dps is about even w/ guardian dps at the moment. Maybe slightly higher, but only in their dps line. I have no clue what wardens can do. Seems like virtually all the non-dps classes should be hovering around 1.1k in their respective dps lines. (core dps being burg, champ, hunter, rk)

--Some misinformation:
I don't know any dps classes that are hitting above 2k on training dummies. Most "good" dps'ers are hitting about 1.6k. The great ones hit about 2k. I've looked through the hunter & champ forums lately and that's what i've been finding. This assumes no buffs from other classes.

--Who said champs were better for tanking? Why... Would that be the case? They take a lot more damage and aren't as good at holding threat. The amount of damage they do in glory is maybe 400-500 dps (against 3+ mobs) because they've left most of their might gear at home, and glory has no outgoing damage buffs like fervor.

Virtually anyone can tank RoF/Foundry these days because they're kind of easy instances... Want a challenge? Pull 2-3 mob packs at a time with a guard; I'd love to see a champ survive that (they won't). On the other hand champs will love being with you since they can finally take advantage of their 10 target aoe's.

--Only thing... I really want from OP... Is make the brutal assault bleed a 100% chance. Well... It'd also be nice if the cooldown or magnitude of take to heart was increased; I don't know why that is in the yellow line.

I totally agree... with everything you have said. Sure Champs CAN tank, a mob or two, but a guard can pull as many mobs as he wants in groups of two or three or more at a time in any instance and on the landscape, barring Roots and Orthanc, and live. A champ cannot, no matter how good the healer is and fast the dps can burn mobs, the champ will get hit and die, the guard on the other hand can stand there and take a brutal beating and laugh in the mobs faces while getting healed and the DPS simply can burn one target after another.

Both sides have viable arguments, but I stick to my side cause guards are made to tank. I've only switched to OP on a handful of occassions, mostly in Draigoch cause I'm too lazy to tank the head anymore. LOL... I went to Saruman once in OP in a PUG and I did a 75 skirm raid in OP at 70. All fair experiences becuase I know my dps is garbage because I'm suppossed to be tanking, but I wasn't tanking so I did my little bit of contributing and that was that.

But the easiest way to prove the point of the truth, not my point of view or anyone elses is pick an instance, form a 6 man group with a basic dynamic for success, meaning no burg stacking, or excess heals or uber dps, do two runs, one with a guard in OP, triated and geared for it to DPS while a Champ tanks, and then reverse it, let the champ do DPS and the guard tank, and watch the results. I know for a fact from experience, as long as the group understands what's going on and has a good healer and dps, the guard can tank through entire hallways and rooms pulling mobs and not die. In some places in the foundry, a guard can grab EVERY mob and hold them, of course if you dont' know what you are doing or the healer sucks, you'll die of course, but if the DPS is fast and hard and the heals are strong, only the tank needs heals and the foundry can be run in under 30 minutes. The three boss fights take longer than the all the trash pulls put together. You can actually agro every pull from the start to the first boss as a guard and tank them all, that's what 6~9 pulls if you don't have a guard tanking, and live. thanks to Oac and a few other good friends and players, Speedy foudnry runs are the only way I'll even do it anymore. and this isn't in a group that's been playing with each other forever, you get good players in a PUG and you can do it.

Originally Posted by Iracham

I have good news for you! Guardians getting more DPS has absolutely no relevance to minstrels losing War-speech.

Oh thank god, I was afraid if I rolled a Minstrel, I would lose War Speech since a lot of people will qq about guard DPS from what I've seen until turbine rolls all classes together and everyone will simply be wizards or warriors. And even then, people will not be happy. ^_^

1. Did you seriously just post 5 times in a row?
2.

Originally Posted by Myrdyrwar

my bad I said the OP when I meant the other guy who agrees with him who said minstrels have higher dps than guards. My bad, but my comment still stands, having garbage dps is part of being a guard period.

Has not always been the case, and should not be the case as many have argued the .. case for. That perspective remark is ringing-true with me more and more.

Originally Posted by Myrdyrwar

The posters with an opposing view are wanting dps equivalentto actual DPS classes just so they can go on the landscape, in the moors, in raids and instances and not tank which is not the point of a guard.

Welcome to the thread, you must be new. No seriously - you can't possibly have read all the posts and still believe we're asking for OP to provide EQUIVALENTdps, compared to the main dps-classes.
Show me just one place in this thread where anyone is asking for dps EQUIVALENT to the dps-classes. Go on - I dare you. Evendale is the one who comes closest - and even he is only asking for the balance between OP guards and dps-classes to be restored to what it used to be in MoM/SoM (which to be fair was not far too off some of the dps-classes).
The rest of us are simply asking for a buff to dps levels in OP - not for it to be doubled, tripled or equal or better than the dps-classes (we leave it to people who can't read properly to draw such conclusions), just buffed.
And just stating the obvious here ofc; viable in the thread topic does not mean equivalent either.

Originally Posted by Myrdyrwar

I think guards are doing ok and if any adjustments should be made, they should be made to increase the value of having a guard tanking in any group, and that includes nerfing Champs, Wardens, and Minstrels in regards to tanking.

Wardens can tank, it's their main role - deal with it. Champs have it as their secondary role - deal with it. And minstrels can do just about anything these days.
Asking for nerfs for 4 other classes (never seen a cappy tank? strange...) just so one class can feel a tiny bit more special is just... [censored - according to forum rules]

Originally Posted by Myrdyrwar

As far as solo questing, I've never had an issue ever anywhere in the whole freaking game of not being able to do something as a guard solo and I do landscape quests/deeds traited and geared for raid tanking in sword and board. The only time I ever die is because I pull upwards of 12 or more mobs at once, or I try to solo something that is just out of my reach.

And you don't ever get tired of solo fights that last 10 mins? Why do you solo with SnB when you got the OP stance that (supposedly) does a lot more dps? On trivial content faster is always better. You'd know that if you had levelled more than once.

Originally Posted by Myrdyrwar

I totally agree... with everything you have said. Sure Champs CAN tank, a mob or two, but a guard can pull as many mobs as he wants in groups of two or three or more at a time in any instance and on the landscape, barring Roots and Orthanc, and live. A champ cannot, no matter how good the healer is and fast the dps can burn mobs, the champ will get hit and die, the guard on the other hand can stand there and take a brutal beating and laugh in the mobs faces while getting healed and the DPS simply can burn one target after another.

Have you ever seen a tank-traited champ? Yeeeeeah I doubt it....

Originally Posted by Myrdyrwar

Both sides have viable arguments, but I stick to my side cause guards are made to tank. I've only switched to OP on a handful of occassions, mostly in Draigoch cause I'm too lazy to tank the head anymore. LOL... I went to Saruman once in OP in a PUG and I did a 75 skirm raid in OP at 70. All fair experiences becuase I know my dps is garbage because I'm suppossed to be tanking, but I wasn't tanking so I did my little bit of contributing and that was that.

So you're basically saying... "I've never tried OP and I don't like it so nobody else is allowed to like it either. Therefore it should suck and continue to suck because I don't like it. Oh and btw - anyone who likes it is a noob"

Originally Posted by Myrdyrwar

...lot of people will qq about guard DPS from what I've seen until turbine rolls all classes together and everyone will simply be wizards or warriors. And even then, people will not be happy.

Cause... that's what eeeeveryone in this thread is asking for... clearly... I can only refer you to my previous posts. Read them again. Please.
Also - may I suggest only posting on the forums when in a sober state - it can help you to think before you post, and maybe even prevent you from posting 5 times in a row.
We managed to have a somewhat decent discussion about class roles, primary as well as secondary, before you made your 'glorious' return. I wouldn't mind returning to that...

Originally Posted by Gilias

Just gonna say it one last time (I wish) for those who still haven't gotten it:

Guardian dps in OP is too weak compared to all the other classes and should be buffed so guards can function in their secondary role.

Guards don't have a functional secondary role because the dps in OP is too low. Please buff it - or give us another secondary role.

I semi agree with this. A guards secondary role compared to that of say, an RK's or a Champions is pretty &&&&&&. I don't think we should be able to do as much dps as a hunter or champion, but I think they need a buff to bring them up to the same standards the other classes have their secondary roles at.

been playing around with some gear, but atm I find the power usage in OP the biggest issue... our dps with 2nd age 2H and a 3rd age belt, focussed on dmg/might makes me hit nicely. but the power makes it look like our dps is burst, in which case dps is just &&&& and should be higher, thinking to ec's lvl: 6-10k per hit or so.

But since they won't this and I think it would be insane anywayz, I'd settle for a fix to power consumption so it's actually a viable stustainable dps. Now it's 4 hits and you're out of power, make it more like hunters or so... (or any other class with sustained dps). Drop the power-penalty on op would be step 1, maybe that'll do it... if not, make power costs a bit lower.

as of now graalx just messed up big time, it's not sustainable but it ain't burst either. Maybe black & white, but not a whole lot of flavours to go on :P

Originally Posted by Klayvax

I semi agree with this. A guards secondary role compared to that of say, an RK's or a Champions is pretty &&&&&&. I don't think we should be able to do as much dps as a hunter or champion, but I think they need a buff to bring them up to the same standards the other classes have their secondary roles at.

Why is it that even a post like this, where the poster is mostly talking sense, still makes me want to punch a face?

I guess I'll just quote Evendale instead of continuing to rant about the lack of intelligence and useful threads in this forum.

Originally Posted by Evendale

It's so annoying to hear people say we shouldn't be given more DPS.

I don't just want to be given the ability to do more DPS; I want the devs to restore the ability for Guards to do as much DPS compared to Burgs/Hunters/Champs as they used to be able to do!

Guardian DPS in Overpower during MoM/SoM times was exceptional. One could argue that it was too good, but I think it was about right.

Now in RoI, our DPS (comparative to Burgs/Hunts/Champs) is so much worse its laughable. It's not because our DPS got directly nerfed but because:

1. Due of the stat changes Graal implemented, its much harder for Guards to get Might/Crit gear (there's considerably less of it on our set pieces) compared to how easy it is for other DPS classes to get stats that improve their DPS (especially Burgs/Hunters)*. DPS classes get substantial base crit rating bonuses, etc, so can make better use of the now much larger stat caps. A fully perfectly DPS specced Guardian is still going to have stats that don't compare too favorably with their DPS class counterparts.
2. Also due to the stat changes, the large OP raw % offense bonus gives us half the benefit it used to, while the other DPS classes have bonuses that went largely unaffected by the scaling up of offense (eg: Burglar positional damage is multiplicative with offense so was unaffected, a large amount of Burg/Champ/Hunter DPS gains are through critical multipliers that are likewise multiplicative with offense, Precision stance gives Hunters DPS gains via more focus rather than more offense, etc; even the raw % bonus of Fervor is considerably smaller than the OP dmg bonus)
3. The DPS classes have gained numerous buffs (such as the Champion revamp that allows perma-Flurry while in Fervor, etc, and the crazy addition of the very overpowered Burglar PvP set), while we got less than nothing to aid with our DPS.

* especially if you want to retain any sort of ICPR and/or survivability on your Guard

Guardians used to be within ~20% of all DPS class's single target DPS, and were similarly not far behind Champion AoE dps - all while retaining some decent survivability. Hunters could barely do any AoE damage either, so Guardian DPS was even more valuable.

Now we can only do slightly more than half as much single target DPS, and with Hunters being able to pump out huge amounts of AoE damage when there are a lot of targets, it is not worth even bothering with a DPS build on a Guardian anymore.

Why the nerf? Because Graal is lazy and/or doesn't like OP, so couldn't be bothered making any changes to it. This isn't just me ranting (well it is that too); he said as much in his dev diary at the time. I was annoyed at the time and will be even more annoyed if his great plans for the class don't at the very least involve revisiting our damage output.

Graal might argue that we are comparatively way way better at taking damage compared to other classes than we used to be as well (and that is true), so why shouldn't our DPS suffer? But that would be overlooking the fact that DPS has always been the class's secondary role ... and so shouldn't that mean we at least deserve the same attention Champion's got given to their tanking role in RoI? zzzzz

Why should a tank have viable DPS, seems unbalanced to be as sturdy as a guard (vit x 5 morale) and want to do damage like a hunter? If you want a game where the trinity is abolished you'll need to look elsewhere is my guess.

[QUOTE=Grusk;6247268]1. Did you seriously just post 5 times in a row?

Unfortunately yes, because it wasn't until just now that I was shown the little button next to reply with quote that will let me reply to multiple posts. I'm a forum noob too apparently.

Well guards are meant first as aggro tanking and second as support dps.

That being said, I pull dps aggro quite often over all other classes. How?? 140% phys mastery and 20% crit chance in DPS build. If properly geared out tweaked out grd can and will pump a serious amount of DPS. I quite honestly like where the grds are dps wise but would rather see an aggro tweak AND MAKE MY SHIELD A LEGANDARY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!! =)

Originally Posted by Lord-Rabulas

Well guards are meant first as aggro tanking and second as support dps.

That being said, I pull dps aggro quite often over all other classes. How?? 140% phys mastery and 20% crit chance in DPS build. If properly geared out tweaked out grd can and will pump a serious amount of DPS. I quite honestly like where the grds are dps wise but would rather see an aggro tweak AND MAKE MY SHIELD A LEGANDARY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!! =)

DPS is nice enough when you're just out there having fun - but try and look at the numbers and compare them to some of the other classes and you'll see that the guardian is too far off for OP to provide a viable secondary role. Not enough dps to make up for the huge sacrifices in survivability and sustainability.

And make your shield a legendary? You mean guards should have 3 legendary items? Or are you talking about traits? /confused

Originally Posted by Gilias

And you don't ever get tired of solo fights that last 10 mins? Why do you solo with SnB when you got the OP stance that (supposedly) does a lot more dps? On trivial content faster is always better. You'd know that if you had levelled more than once.

This reminded me an anecdote : while levelling in dunland, using OP, I came across a SnB guard fighting with a dunland ox. I selected the guard to see both his morale and opponent morale, saw that the fight just started, and so I started to move away. I had a bit of chat in my kinship tab, and then realised that even though the guard was only using damage skill, he was barely making a dent in the ox morale. So I unsaddled, took out my two hander, and killed the ox.

I now have a 75 champion, and even when there are no healers around I easily take on more than three on-level opponents, and up to eight when my cooldowns are up (which is every 5mn). My experience as a guard might help, but the difference between the DPS-toughness balance on guards and champions is huge. For the same DPS value, my champion is much sturdier. When sturdiness is all that count, my guard is the most sturdy, but when gearing up to tank for raids, I don't even pretend that I do any DPS.

What is the skill guardians don't use in OP? (except when tanking)

FRAY THE EDGE!
With a 10 secs cooldown, it could make a great service to dps guards, if it was changed to give the following buffs after being used in OP stance:
-using sting after fray the edge should give a bonus to melee damage (maybe physical mastery or rather a percentage buff)
-using thrust after fray the edge should double the bleed damage applied by salt the wound
-using sting after fray the edge would make your next skill decrease your threat - yes, decrase your threat, because I don't want overagroing the other guardian...
-using force opening after fray the edge would decrease the enemy's armor value
-and something for those who prefer tanking in OP: using guardian's ward after fray the edge would give a block response

And wardens keep away! or don't cry, and try helping us... You will still get better skills and so, making you even better tanks, providing you with even better defence, dps, etc.

I just wonder why is that good, if guardians are 'easy to play', but any class can be better then they... Please make them a bit harder to play and a bit better.

Thx

Originally Posted by Berf

What is the skill guardians don't use in OP? (except when tanking)

FRAY THE EDGE!
With a 10 secs cooldown, it could make a great service to dps guards, if it was changed to give the following buffs after being used in OP stance:
**snip**

To be clear, your grand and ultimate plan to resolve the issue is to make using a taunt skill that does zero damage buff us? Those would have to be some pretty major buffs to even overcome the loss of the time used using the non-fast and moderately long animation frey has...

The solution should come from a revision of OP, whether that's purely a revision of how the stance bonus modifies the damage output to scale it to what offense values reach these days (anything but another arbitrary value that is only added into the equation and then not revised when the values in the equation shift dramatically, please), or some other means.

Personally it's appealing more and more to me that they could modify the play of OP stance to be played with a shield, with each OP-only skill being modified to simply make sense of it. You'd suddenly have 2 or 3 legendary traits that work better across roles and have not lost the reactive element of the class entirely, despite the loss of bpe you incur building for dps anyway. The stance would of course still require a major offense upgrade somehow, more of one even, to be viable. It just makes sense that they could switch it at the same time.

I think OP stance is pretty good for a secondary DPS role for guardians. I can DPS reasonably well and compete with some champs where single target DPS is concerned. I also like spamming TTK and getting conj stuns on foes that you can't otherwise stun.. or just to get a conj up for power and other fellowship needs. The utility of TTK in addition to OP stance shouldn't be underestimated.

One thing that would maybe make the DPS output a bit more steady is if brutal assault applied a bleed 100% of the time when hemorrhage is traited. You can pump DPS on a single target if you have three bleeds going and spam fast activation attacks.

I am finding it to be very interesting that many a poster in multiple threads are saying the guard is fine as is, then they go on to make a suggestion on a small thing that they see as needing an update/boost/buff.

Kinda like what a few of us are trying to convey, we don't need or want a total revamp, we want some small changes to make things better, to just round out the class in our dps roll, to be more versatile for grouping.

I think there is good reason to support this idea - the situation that you need 2 tanks for a raid up until the last boss, and then you're trying to DPS-stack. You don't want to be booted as one of the guards.

I like the increasing crit chance idea mentioned, but make it based on incoming damage instead - make it so that while in Overpower, each time we get *hit* our crit chance goes up by 5% and our incoming crit chance goes up by 5%, until we get a crit, in which case those both clear.

Originally Posted by Reillan

I think there is good reason to support this idea - the situation that you need 2 tanks for a raid up until the last boss, and then you're trying to DPS-stack. You don't want to be booted as one of the guards.

I like the increasing crit chance idea mentioned, but make it based on incoming damage instead - make it so that while in Overpower, each time we get *hit* our crit chance goes up by 5% and our incoming crit chance goes up by 5%, until we get a crit, in which case those both clear.

Only problem i see with this idea, is when you're the OP guard you won't be the MT. So you will likely be standing behind the boss not taking hits!

Originally Posted by ostlix

Why should a tank have viable DPS, seems unbalanced to be as sturdy as a guard (vit x 5 morale) and want to do damage like a hunter? If you want a game where the trinity is abolished you'll need to look elsewhere is my guess.

Who, in this thread, said Guardians should do as much damage as a hunter?

I'll be waiting.

Originally Posted by Myrdyrwar

Compared to Hunters, RKs, Burgs, and Champs no...
But that's the point, the classes don't need to be made more even for balance, make all the classes more even by strengthening their roles primary, secondary roles are by necessity secondary. Guards have decent enough output in OP, with the right traits and gear to play them, but that's their secondary role. and no I'm not attacking you Oac or anyone else, but yes I am harrassing you becaus eI wuvs ya . though I do agree when in OP loss of power is a huge issue sometimes and should be adjusted, but only because it's indicitive of a bigger issue, power drains quickly when you are tanking anything that requires more input than spamming Challenge, Fray The Edge, and Engage. Tanking anything that takes longer than 3 minutes for the DPS to kill starts hurting the guards power, but not too badly since you do have options to restore power as long as you aren't in OP.

I think guards are doing ok and if any adjustments should be made, they should be made to increase the value of having a guard tanking in any group, and that includes nerfing Champs, Wardens, and Minstrels in regards to tanking. As far as solo questing, I've never had an issue ever anywhere in the whole freaking game of not being able to do something as a guard solo and I do landscape quests/deeds traited and geared for raid tanking in sword and board. The only time I ever die is because I pull upwards of 12 or more mobs at once, or I try to solo something that is just out of my reach.

I would only suggest giving Guards another heal or something on par with Wardens to make us have that one extra healing skill to pop when all other skills and pots are on cd and the group healer is down or busy and we are gonna die.

so that question was meant for someone else and you answered it, so i'll reply to you.

first of all, you're 100% wrong about wardens and captains having epic dps.

there is nothing wrong with guard tanking. at all. if you're dying, it is not a healer being busy issue. our catch a breath should be scaled simply because it scales to 50 and stops, but honestly, we don't really need it.
and why the hell would you nerf warden tanking? why?
and please tell me you are trolling when you said minstrel tanking should be nerfed.


and i'd just like to point out that this:

The posters with an opposing view are wanting dps equivalent to actual DPS classes just so they can go on the landscape, in the moors, in raids and instances and not tank which is not the point of a guard.

is not at all what people are asking for.

Originally Posted by ostlix

Why should a tank have viable DPS, seems unbalanced to be as sturdy as a guard (vit x 5 morale) and want to do damage like a hunter? If you want a game where the trinity is abolished you'll need to look elsewhere is my guess.

i really wished that people who understood overpower and how guards (or the game in general) are itemized before saying such ridiculous things.

would it be unreasonable for a guard to do as much damage as a hunter? honestly, no.
on the same token, i don't think it would be unreasonable for a hunter to have as much utility as a LM or burglar. after all, they can do really nice dps and no one complains.


the thing is, when a guard is in overpower, she is not nearly as sturdy as a tanking guard. -5% evade, stacking more might instead of vitality, our only defensive buff is actually an overall nerf (+1500 parry for -900 evade usually equates to less avoidance)

guards should be able to do more dps. they shouldn't be able to tank while doing so. anyone who thinks that guards are asking to dps and tank at the same time probably doesn't know the guard class all that well.

Originally Posted by oaceen

guards should be able to do more dps. they shouldn't be able to tank while doing so. anyone who thinks that guards are asking to dps and tank at the same time probably doesn't know the guard class all that well.

And this is what I gathered from what was being said.

As it stands, a tanking Champion is better at tanking than a dps Guardian is better at dps.

This means that Champions are capable of filling their secondary role. They don't have quite the tanking that Guardian does, but they can still fill a tank slot in a pinch.

Guardians, however, are not capable of filling their secondary role. Their sustainable DPS isn't good enough for them to fill a DPS slot in a pinch.

...This is what I've gathered, bearing in mind. Do I understand the situation correctly?

Precisely, though the champion comparison was just an example. Actually, it's perhaps more relevant to note that champions in glass-cannon are more durable than guards in glass-cannon because bubbles are more versatile than pledge, and do a lot more damage.

Lol what are you al blabering about, a guard can be really awesome for moors, if you know how to play it right and how to get high dps. I know a guard who almost all the time (if not all the time) plays in OP and spends time in moors. Guard is hard to kill in moors and it has rather good dps if you know how to play it. (not saying I can, I am not that good with OP :P )

Having a rank 0 or even a low ranked guard, and telling high rank guards how to play in the moors is laughable.
We have way more experience in PvP in lotro then most do, and we know how it works.

And some of you have maybe 1-2 years of time in lotro as well, going by your forum join date, yet you think you know more about the class then those that have been playing longer?

I have over 10 months /played time on my guard, it is my one and only love among all the classes.

Again learn to comprehend what is written, no one is asking for TANKING guard changes.

Some of you do not like 2H/OP stance, look we get it.
But the devs gave us OP stance, so that is what we have, and it needs improvements.

Saying all is well in OP stance, and blowing all your CDs to make you believe so, well, then your doing it wrong.
Swapping gear mid fight, so you can get a real heal, again, doing it wrong.
A class that has to do that has a serious flaw in it, for gear should not be used to make up for lackluster skills.
Armor set bonus' should enhance skills, not be required, to make up for something that is lacking in the class.

This game along time ago left the station on pure class roles.
Turbine changed the game, so that all classes could be able to function in multiple roles.
The lack of proper changes to OP stance/dps builds, have left guards sidelined when a dps slot is available.

Not sure why it takes this long to fix OP. Maybe there are no more devs around that know how to change classes?

The fix is simple enough:

- remove extra skill cost from OP
- add in-combat power regen and maybe some power recovery
- fix animation/activation for skills. It takes ages until a guard swings a 2H sword compared with other classes.

Or just change Overpower from + skill cost to - skill cost. How hard is that?

Originally Posted by Anwiga

I wouldn't say champs tank perfectly in any instance. In 3 man instances its more of a "kill everything before it can hurt us" than tanking it. In foundry t2 they kite, so its not exactly tanking. In roots t1 or 2 the healers are going mad trying to keep the champs up. Healers have a much easier time healing guardians than champs at anything. Which means, a guard can tank "perfectly" and champion can tank "alright". In the same way a guard can DPS "alright" while a champ can dps "perfectly".

You haven't played with anything resembling a decent champ tank, then. While I love to DPS on my champ more than anything else, I'd like to think I'm a fairly competent tank. I tank Foundry T2 all the time and there's no kiting involved. Take the beating, never lose aggro, do 1.5k-ish DPS on trash pulls in the process. Capped phys mit, 60% tac mit (when I run Foundry). Granted my avoidances are lower than a guard's (15%-ish each parry and evade and no block obviously) and I've got less morale (about 15k fully buffed) I've got 3 bubbles, Invincible and higher incoming healing on average than any guard. While I'm nowhere near the amazing feats of tanking really good tanks can pull off, I do better than a lot of mediocre guards and do a heck of a lot more DPS in the process.

Anyway, in regards to the question at hand: I'm against the idea of giving Guards big innate crit multipliers, as that would make them totally ludicrous AoE DPS. A good guard can already hang with the big boys in AoE DPS fights, so giving them crit multipliers would make them better AoE dps machines than anyone else, which I think is a mistake.

Here's what guards *should* get:

1) Better power management in OP. Reduced skill power costs or ICPR on the stance would help.

2) Less obnoxious threatgen in OP. The extra threat on Vexing and the threat leech on Whirling make it incredibly difficult for tanks to hold aggro on AoE pulls against an OP guard. Maybe link the aggro of these two skills to an OP trait so that you can trait it to get rid of the aggro gen, and leave it off if you want to OP tank?

3) Improve guard single-target DPS by way of improving bleed damage in OP or by adding some harder-hitting single target skills. Single target fights are by far where guards lack in DPS and need the most love.

Originally Posted by Zachski

And this is what I gathered from what was being said.

As it stands, a tanking Champion is better at tanking than a dps Guardian is better at dps.

This means that Champions are capable of filling their secondary role. They don't have quite the tanking that Guardian does, but they can still fill a tank slot in a pinch.

Guardians, however, are not capable of filling their secondary role. Their sustainable DPS isn't good enough for them to fill a DPS slot in a pinch.

...This is what I've gathered, bearing in mind. Do I understand the situation correctly?

100% correct.

Originally Posted by Gylve

You haven't played with anything resembling a decent champ tank, then. While I love to DPS on my champ more than anything else, I'd like to think I'm a fairly competent tank. I tank Foundry T2 all the time and there's no kiting involved. Take the beating, never lose aggro, do 1.5k-ish DPS on trash pulls in the process. Capped phys mit, 60% tac mit (when I run Foundry). Granted my avoidances are lower than a guard's (15%-ish each parry and evade and no block obviously) and I've got less morale (about 15k fully buffed) I've got 3 bubbles, Invincible and higher incoming healing on average than any guard. While I'm nowhere near the amazing feats of tanking really good tanks can pull off, I do better than a lot of mediocre guards and do a heck of a lot more DPS in the process.

Anyway, in regards to the question at hand: I'm against the idea of giving Guards big innate crit multipliers, as that would make them totally ludicrous AoE DPS. A good guard can already hang with the big boys in AoE DPS fights, so giving them crit multipliers would make them better AoE dps machines than anyone else, which I think is a mistake.

Here's what guards *should* get:

1) Better power management in OP. Reduced skill power costs or ICPR on the stance would help.

2) Less obnoxious threatgen in OP. The extra threat on Vexing and the threat leech on Whirling make it incredibly difficult for tanks to hold aggro on AoE pulls against an OP guard. Maybe link the aggro of these two skills to an OP trait so that you can trait it to get rid of the aggro gen, and leave it off if you want to OP tank?

3) Improve guard single-target DPS by way of improving bleed damage in OP or by adding some harder-hitting single target skills. Single target fights are by far where guards lack in DPS and need the most love.

I hate to sound like a jerk, but reading your 3 points on what guards *should* get makes me assume that you don't play a guard and have no clue what you are referencing.

1) Guards have a legacy for reduced OP power cost, as well as if you skip the red line trait Raw Power, you get an extra -5% OP power cost for having at least 2 red line traits equipped. Not equipping Raw power an OP guard just loses out on an extra 3% OP damage. Also guards have 2 skills that can return power to them, including one where it's cooldown can be reset once every 15 minutes. with Deep Breath. Add power pots to the equation and a properly played OP guard can last a long fight. ICPR can be obtained from buffs, consumables, even relics slotted on your LIs. Many tools at our disposal to not run out of power.

2) Threat gen in OP? are you kidding me? if you are playing with an OP guard that is using all his threat gen skills they are playing their OP stance all wrong. Besides I can hold aggro against any OP guard when traited properly for tanking. Our Block reactives are our bread and butter when it comes to threat gen. Way more threat can be generated and quicker than an OP guard can swing his 2 hander.

3) There are several ways for an OP guard to increase his bleed damage. First our LIs have bleed damage legacies and even a bleed pulses legacy. And then the red line capstone adds another +15% bleed damage, not to mention the stackable bleed it can apply 50% of the time with Brutal Assault. A guard can do FAR more single target damage with his bleeds than he can AOE damage. Not to mention all the AOE skills consumes way more power than the single target DPS skills do, which coincides with point number 1 above.


I have both a level capped Guardian and a level capped Champion, and I don't know the opinions of everyone else, but when my guard and champ are playing their main roles, guard tanking, and champ DPSing, then their skills flow smoothly and quickly, because that is their main purpose. And surely I can trait my guard for DPS, and my champ for tanking, but when they are traited and equipped for their secondary roles, the skill flow and skill execution is ungodly SLOW! Sure my champ can tank just fine, but it is no fun waiting for his skills to trigger off just so I can prove to everyone he is an uber tank. Same goes for the guardian, sure he can DPS just fine as well, but again it is no fun waiting for him to swing his 2 hander at snails pace. Switch them both back to their primary roles and skills execute as quickly as they should and they are fun to play again. That is how it should be... I shouldn't expect to take a "tanking" class and pump out unreal DPS numbers. That would negate the primary roles of all the other classes.

Originally Posted by Vysion34

1) Guards have a legacy for reduced OP power cost, as well as if you skip the red line trait Raw Power, you get an extra -5% OP power cost for having at least 2 red line traits equipped. Not equipping Raw power an OP guard just loses out on an extra 3% OP damage. Also guards have 2 skills that can return power to them, including one where it's cooldown can be reset once every 15 minutes. with Deep Breath. Add power pots to the equation and a properly played OP guard can last a long fight. ICPR can be obtained from buffs, consumables, even relics slotted on your LIs. Many tools at our disposal to not run out of power.

Let's have a short comparison: champions have ICPR on their combat stances, a skill to regen power every 10s and multiple legacies reducing power up to -30%. And you compare that to be able to not traiting a pure power sink, and a 5mn CD which can be reset every 15mn ? TTH is sorta OK, but nowhere near the effectiveness of other power returning tools for other classes. But a simple comparison like this is pretty void anyway since this is a bit like comparing oranges to apples. The best comparison is to look for long dummy parses and see how long can you sustain 1k DPS or 1.5k DPS before running out of power. And the answer is every class can run longer than the guard.

2) Threat gen in OP? are you kidding me? if you are playing with an OP guard that is using all his threat gen skills they are playing their OP stance all wrong. Besides I can hold aggro against any OP guard when traited properly for tanking. Our Block reactives are our bread and butter when it comes to threat gen. Way more threat can be generated and quicker than an OP guard can swing his 2 hander.

Your answer is off-topic, I don't think the parent was speaking of guards using their threat gen skills. Guardians in OP are the only DPS class without any reliable aggro reduction or perceived aggro tool. Champs can ebb, burgs can provoke and HiPS, minies can fake death, hunters can use beneath notice, etc. Furthermore, there are tons of aggro-reducing legacies, skills reducing aggro (like quick shot in endurance for hunters), to the point that enumerating them for all classes is nearly impossible.

On the other hand guardians in OP have to stop using three skills which have additional aggro: VB, sweeping cut (it has a small bit of aggro), WR. Of course we get three skills to make up for this: force opening, stagger and brutal assault. But we also loose access to many damaging skills namely shield-blow, bash, shield-swipe and shield-smash, and have many aggro tools that are to be avoided: challenge, fray, shield-taunt, litany, engage.

So we can use less skills in OP, and we have no way to reduce our aggro generation. What's even worse is that if we want to improve our belt and use a second age, we will have a passive aggro bonus. So the conclusion is that if a guard cannot take aggro from you while hunters and champions can, it is because his DPS is much lower then theirs. If a guard in OP crits and take aggro from the tank, he has now way of getting aggro free in the next few seconds. His only option is to stand next to the tank and hope the tank will notice and catch up. If any other class takes aggro, there are skills at their disposal to help the tank recover the aggro.

Imagine for a moment that in RoR everyone's DPS is upped through the roof, to the point that sneezing is enough to take aggro from any tank. With the passive bonus, the OP guard will still be at a disadvantage, because he won't be able to ditch of aggro on the tank. The burg will hit provoke, the hunter will use quick shot in endurance, the champion will ebb, and the guard will not be able to do any of this.

3) There are several ways for an OP guard to increase his bleed damage. First our LIs have bleed damage legacies and even a bleed pulses legacy. And then the red line capstone adds another +15% bleed damage, not to mention the stackable bleed it can apply 50% of the time with Brutal Assault. A guard can do FAR more single target damage with his bleeds than he can AOE damage. Not to mention all the AOE skills consumes way more power than the single target DPS skills do, which coincides with point number 1 above.

This does not negate the fact that guardian's ST DPS is ranked lower among all classes than guardian's AOE DPS. So increasing it is probably the first thing to do, and bleeds are a way to do it.

I have both a level capped Guardian and a level capped Champion [...] I shouldn't expect to take a "tanking" class and pump out unreal DPS numbers. That would negate the primary roles of all the other classes.

I also have both classes level capped. I had the guardian for years and the champion for only a few weeks, and there are some things I can only do with the guard as he is better geared and I am more experienced. But still, the champion feels too sturdy for the kind of DPS he can dish out, and the guard feels too slow when geared for DPS. When trying to equate their DPS, I have to go to great length to maximise my guardian's DPS output, and feel much squishier than the champion. The champion's bubble is on a 1mn CD, which can be lowered using WA and some traits, hedge is permanently up when tanking, self-healings in glory are through the roof, etc. I would not dare tank a ToO raid with my champion yet, but for any other content I will bring my champion unless I am running with newbies who won a first ager at the lottery.

This thread makes me happy... I have been gone from this game and the forums since a few months after Moria came out and I am just now coming back, and this thread makes it seem like no time has past. I don't remember a single time I checked this forum that there wasn't at least ONE thread complaining about the Guards lack of secondary role.

I am old school when it comes to the Guard. I rolled it, played it, and before I quit, maxed it because I loved the idea of being able to absorb insane amounts of damage, and save the group when things went to hell. When they came out with OP I was "meh" about the whole thing. I didn't care that SnB took longer to kill mobs than a DPSer... I knew what I was getting into when I rolled a guard. Now, I will roll OP when soloing sometimes because yeah, it goes a little faster, but I honestly still love SnB and will play that way quite a bit.

I don't think anything needs to change in PvE as far as Guard DPS goes. Why would it? You shouldn't have rolled a guard if you want to do damage. Play another character. Play a champ... you still get melee, you still get heavy armor, you still get swords. Don't tell me you really enjoy playing your Guard and so you don't want to play another character... if you enjoyed playing your Guard you would play it as a Guard and not whine about not being able to DPS. I believe (and I may be recollecting wrong) that the reason OP was introduced was along the same lines as War Speech for Minstrel... to make soloing more bearable. People were complaining about it taking too long to kill mobs and so Turbine gave them another option. I don't think that their goal was to give you another option for a DPSer in group material.

As for the PvP aspect... that I could relate to a little more. It is pretty lame for a guard in PvP... granted, I didn't put in much time there ever, but when I did I wasn't super jazzed playing my Guard. I'm not sure how that specifically could be rectified, but I would /sign for that change if it ever came up.

TLR - If you wanna be a Guardian, deal with the low DPS. Otherwise roll a different class.

Originally Posted by JehovahSoldier

This thread ....

Since you have been gone, turbine decided to give every class a secondary role, and third role for some classes...
That is what we are talking about, not DPS in general, not DPS in Moors, but whether the DPS we have in OP makes our sec role a viable one (i.e. useful in a group) or not...
The whole argument "you rolled a guard, do not ask for dps" is imho out of date, since that is what our sec. role is supposed to be. It is like refusing reality !! As if you do not want to see champs tanking, captains healing etc.
Let's face it. This is what the game is now.
If we don't get a viable sec. role we are just left with much fewer chances to join a group = 1/12 just as main tank, in the same time that most of other classes have 3-8/12 depending on content.
Btw increasing DPS is not the only way to upgrade our sec. role viability. Debuffing (like stagger), FM (TTK, FtE), could be, if enriched, a "supportive" aspect of our sec. role, that in conjuction with an updated DPS could give a viable mixture.

Originally Posted by Aialor

Since you have been gone, turbine decided to give every class a secondary role, and third role for some classes...
That is what we are talking about, not DPS in general, not DPS in Moors, but whether the DPS we have in OP makes our sec role a viable one (i.e. useful in a group) or not...
The whole argument "you rolled a guard, do not ask for dps" is imho out of date, since that is what our sec. role is supposed to be. It is like refusing reality !! As if you do not want to see champs tanking, captains healing etc.
Let's face it. This is what the game is now.
If we don't get a viable sec. role we are just left with much fewer chances to join a group = 1/12 just as main tank, in the same time that most of other classes have 3-8/12 depending on content.
Btw increasing DPS is not the only way to upgrade our sec. role viability. Debuffing (like stagger), FM (TTK, FtE), could be, if enriched, a "supportive" aspect of our sec. role, that in conjuction with an updated DPS could give a viable mixture.

I guess I am just content having the one role... then again I'm not a HUGE raider. My personal life just doesn't allow it and so I never really got super into it...
But when you put it the way you do I can understand why some people are not content with things the way they are.

Thanks for the non flame reply mate. Cheers!

Would be all in favor of this but not just for guardians. Increasing viability of most classes in a second role would go along ways towards enhancing the social and group aspects of the game. It makes group formation more flexible which gets more people working together and exploring content. Plus it adds more, for those that want it, to do on a given character. Instead of one role to master you've got 2+.

Originally Posted by tgs81

Would be all in favor of this but not just for guardians. Increasing viability of most classes in a second role would go along ways towards enhancing the social and group aspects of the game. It makes group formation more flexible which gets more people working together and exploring content. Plus it adds more, for those that want it, to do on a given character. Instead of one role to master you've got 2+.

Just out of curiosity... can you give a reason why not for guardians but for everyone else? That seems like a strange statement to come on to the Guardian forums and make.

Originally Posted by Evendale

It's so annoying to hear people say we shouldn't be given more DPS.

I don't just want to be given the ability to do more DPS; I want the devs to restore the ability for Guards to do as much DPS compared to Burgs/Hunters/Champs as they used to be able to do!

Guardian DPS in Overpower during MoM/SoM times was exceptional. One could argue that it was too good, but I think it was about right.

Now in RoI, our DPS (comparative to Burgs/Hunts/Champs) is so much worse its laughable. It's not because our DPS got directly nerfed but because:

1. Due of the stat changes Graal implemented, its much harder for Guards to get Might/Crit gear (there's considerably less of it on our set pieces) compared to how easy it is for other DPS classes to get stats that improve their DPS (especially Burgs/Hunters)*. DPS classes get substantial base crit rating bonuses, etc, so can make better use of the now much larger stat caps. A fully perfectly DPS specced Guardian is still going to have stats that don't compare too favorably with their DPS class counterparts.
2. Also due to the stat changes, the large OP raw % offense bonus gives us half the benefit it used to, while the other DPS classes have bonuses that went largely unaffected by the scaling up of offense (eg: Burglar positional damage is multiplicative with offense so was unaffected, a large amount of Burg/Champ/Hunter DPS gains are through critical multipliers that are likewise multiplicative with offense, Precision stance gives Hunters DPS gains via more focus rather than more offense, etc; even the raw % bonus of Fervor is considerably smaller than the OP dmg bonus)
3. The DPS classes have gained numerous buffs (such as the Champion revamp that allows perma-Flurry while in Fervor, etc, and the crazy addition of the very overpowered Burglar PvP set), while we got less than nothing to aid with our DPS.

* especially if you want to retain any sort of ICPR and/or survivability on your Guard

Guardians used to be within ~20% of all DPS class's single target DPS, and were similarly not far behind Champion AoE dps - all while retaining some decent survivability. Hunters could barely do any AoE damage either, so Guardian DPS was even more valuable.

Now we can only do slightly more than half as much single target DPS, and with Hunters being able to pump out huge amounts of AoE damage when there are a lot of targets, it is not worth even bothering with a DPS build on a Guardian anymore.

Why the nerf? Because Graal is lazy and/or doesn't like OP, so couldn't be bothered making any changes to it. This isn't just me ranting (well it is that too); he said as much in his dev diary at the time. I was annoyed at the time and will be even more annoyed if his great plans for the class don't at the very least involve revisiting our damage output.



Graal might argue that we are comparatively way way better at taking damage compared to other classes than we used to be as well (and that is true), so why shouldn't our DPS suffer? But that would be overlooking the fact that DPS has always been the class's secondary role ... and so shouldn't that mean we at least deserve the same attention Champion's got given to their tanking role in RoI? zzzzz

Ty, good sir, for stating what I would have liked to have said much better than I would have said it.

A not so off topic question from someone who has not played in LONG time...


Do guards still use overpower for the moors? Or is a shield more popular now?

Ive also been playing a guardian as my one loved class in this game since its launch.. and I can tell you from and end-game raiding standpoint... if your not switching out gear to gain maximum bonuses from other sets... your doing it wrong and failing to play the class to its fullest.

As a guard who has spent a good bit of time in the moors... I can say ive only been beaten twice in 1v1s against creeps (since the stat cap was removed), once by a rank 12 Reaver, and once by a store bought WL (i only lost because after 10 minutes I finally ran out of power and options to regain power).

Some tips on power issues (once again) when in op. Stop using Sweeping Cut so much. Its power cost makes this harmful.
Draigoch cloak gives a chance for power restore.
Trait for CaB to restore power. (but i cant block in OP - Ignore the pain gives a block response, use your Protection on a class who can block.. you will get plenty of reactives.. its why we have that skill to begin with)
Traited power restore on parry- I love forced opening.. but rarely have to use it because I parry all the time. If your in OP and not stacking Might and Agility gear (not hard since its basically champ gear) then your doing it wrong.

Going back to moors.. being able to do the amount of dps I can do with my 2 hander in op while using a shield would be rediculous to say the least. It is hard enough to kill a guard now.. even in OP. We have the highest mitigations in the game.

Our dmg is based on Physical Mastery which comes from raw phys mast stat and might... I suspect alot of guards who are asking for more viable dps are only capable of reaching about 77% Phys Mastery in OP stance traited reds. This is likely why your dps is low and you are asking for more.

If you gear properly.. and I have tested this using all crafted and rep based gear.. you can get your phys mastery well into the 90% range. Take the time to do it.

There are clearly some people posting here that have little to no clue about the class due to lack of experience, duration of playtime.. whatever the case may be... but I think there are some with seemly large amounts of experience who are failing just as well.

Ill say it once again.. THIS CLASS IS PERFECT JUST THE WAY IT IS... PLEASE DONT CHANGE IT... LEARN TO PLAY IT BETTER!!!

Aigs

I disagree.The class needs tweaked. We shouldn't need to be in the top 3% of players in order to play our class right. We shouldn't need to run in champ gear to in order to have viable dps in OP. Traiting red and swapping a few pieces of jewelry should be enough. Any time a class has to completely reinvent themselves in order not to be obsolete in their secondary role the developers have done something wrong. I do agree that guards who only are running with 77% physical mastery need to work on getting it higher. I run with between 82-85%. Still our most powerful attacks take way to long (brutal assault.) I would like to see our class tweaked, improved self heals (drag set), combine guardian parry with both OP and guard defense. Finally decrease power cost in OP (3-5%??) and cut attack duration (not sure by how much). These are all small tweaks that would significantly benefit our class. Side note does anyone else think that Glorfindel is the quintessential Guardian and not Samwise? I always thought we should use fear debuffs+bleeds to make up for the dps difference when we are in OP. I am using Glorfindel at the ford in the fellowship as an example. Just my thoughts. Cheers

Originally Posted by SilverCentaur

I disagree.The class needs tweaked. We shouldn't need to be in the top 3% of players in order to play our class right. We shouldn't need to run in champ gear to in order to have viable dps in OP. Traiting red and swapping a few pieces of jewelry should be enough.

Don't you think champs have to run in vita gear in order to tank?

If we were able to dps even 3/4 of a champ, while in vita gear... we'd have 75% of their damage and 200% of their health and a heck of a lot better mitigations.
Nevertheless, the obvious problem is that if you can dps that well without gear, when you EQUIP champ gear now you're better dps than the champion.

A simple stance-change to OP like: Melee damage is now based on vitality, -60% morale, would do the trick. But as far as i know nothing that drastic exists in Lotro. They want you to switch gear.