I am an OP guard, still levelling, but according to some of my friends' and the server's best guards (they are mainly the same ), I think we cannot rly dps... It's true, that we have some really nice AoE skills, but still, nearly every class can over-dps us. (Good to be better than cpts... :P)
Though I don't want to see the guardians as better dps then a chmp or a hunter for example, I would like to know, that we are not those ages far from them.
As the "author" of the "shield of the noobedain"(<--yep, thats the effect cpts got for their fellow-defeat response rez, but I wasn't the one to give this name , just the suggestion. So,) now I found out what could be a small, but effective help for us:
That's a buff, we would get in overpower, increasing with one tier with each skill use, to the maximum of 3/4/5. At the maximum, it should give about +40/+50 % crit magnitude, however a critical hit would set this buff back to 0. It may be given by an improved version of overpower (maybe obtainable on lvl 80 something in the next update), or a trait could be changed, to give this buff.
(I got the "inspiration" by the champion legacy giving +50% crit magnitude max.)
I'm sure it just wouldn't make OP guards a better dps than any of those HC dps-es now, but it would give us a chance to get into raids and instances with our guards as a dps.
Hope you maybe got some motivation reading this text.
First off, Guards are the best raid tanks in the game. That is their job, and that is what guards do. If you want to AOE DPS, a champion is what you should have rolled instead. Second, if guards got a dps boost then Wardens and Captains would be wanting one. Third, if you gave Guardians a boost in DPS you would have to significantly lower their defenses since they'd be unfairly powerful in PvMP.
I'm not quite sure why you'd want to DPS in raids as a guard, since that is not what guards are designed for. Sure, it's always fun to DPS, but Guardians are meant to tank, not DPS.
I also agree that we should get +50% crit magnitude in Overpower. We can stack crit rating, but no use since the criticals we do are so low compared to what other classes can crit. Maybe put "+50% critical magnitude in Overpower" as part of the Red legendary trait? Or make it lower, but let us increase it to +50% with a new legacy for our weapons or belts.
Gards do not dps you are built to hold aggro till we DPS classes (Hunter,Champ, Warden, Burg) can burn it down. Guards are tanks not dps.
/not signed
I agree with what you said. (I do find it amusing though you put Wardens as DPS, since they hardly do any more than a guardian. Wardens are excellent raid tanks as well)
So what you are saying is that guardians can't go to Ettenmoors and have some fun? Being the 2nd lowest DPS is not fun. I know, you will say our role in PvP is to shield-wall the minstrel. Have you ever done it? DO you know how much boring it is?
And about PvE: Champions are better tanks than Guardians are DPSers. We want to have this balanced out.
I highly agree with you guys... a guard is a tank, and a tank only which is why a guard's DPS and Overpower in general are garbage. Tanks don't kill things on purpose, tanks get beat on until the DPS can kill things. And honestly I can't speak for any other server but my own, but I know from experience that most of the raids in game especially Orthanc don't want DPS guards period. They either get one or two guards to tank and that's it so if you play a DPS guard then you are basically wasting your time, I really don't even understand why OP is part of a Guard's skills since DPS for a tank is useless and garbage. Just my two coppers though
"My girl, my girl, Don't lie to me, tell me Where did you sleep last night?"
So what you are saying is that guardians can't go to Ettenmoors and have some fun? Being the 2nd lowest DPS is not fun. I know, you will say our role in PvP is to shield-wall the minstrel. Have you ever done it? DO you know how much boring it is?
And about PvE: Champions are better tanks than Guardians are DPSers. We want to have this balanced out.
Guards can go and PvMP in the moors, you just gotta change your traits and gear is all. And honestly being a tank is not the most glamorous job in the first place, Draigoch is the most boring tanking raid job evar. and in PvE Champs are not better at tanking than guards, they just kill things faster, Guards are by far much more durable even if it takes a little longer to kill something. It just sounds like to me you want to be able to DPS and kill things while taking hits. My suggestion would be to roll a Warden or Champ and go have fun leveling and forget about your guard unless you want to tank something. and as far as "We want to have this balanced out", you are in the very small minority that thinks a guard should do something more than tank which is the whole point of being a guard.
"My girl, my girl, Don't lie to me, tell me Where did you sleep last night?"
Boosting guardian dps is a silly idea. Guards hardly need any help getting into raids; they are generally in high demand. And being close to a champ in dps isn't being a champ. No raid leader with half a brain would take an "improved" dps guard over a real dps class anyway.
If you roll a guard, you have to live with the dps. Try gearing yourself better, although I realize this can be hard at the lower levels. I know a 75 guard with nearly 2K strength and he is quite an effective dpser. Not a match for a tricked out endgame champ, but he is better than a lot of champs I can think of.
PS if they are going to boost guard dps, they should give hunters more effective CC, and give burgs some serious AOE skills, and why can't minstrels wear heavy armour so they can take some hits??
Guards can go and PvMP in the moors, you just gotta change your traits and gear is all.
I change my traits, I change my gear with Orthanc OP set, and jewels that most champions use. I have 2k might and high crit rating in this OP build and I still do less than 50% of the DPS a champ would do.
Originally Posted by Myrdyrwar
It just sounds like to me you want to be able to DPS and kill things while taking hits.
I never said that. I want to do a good DPS when I am in my OP gear. I sacrifice a lot of survivability (morale and mitigations), I have damn 8k morale in my OP build. That wouldn't allow me to take more than 3-4 hits. What I do want is increase of DPS to make it worth losing all that morale and mitigations
Originally Posted by Myrdyrwar
My suggestion would be to roll a Warden or Champ and go have fun leveling and forget about your guard unless you want to tank something.
I do want to tank. And I am very good at it. And I am very proud of it. But I also want to be useful those times when I am not tanking, like when soloing or PVPing. Or for example when we have more tanks than needed for raid, but my alt is locked, I can go OP and do some DPS in the raid. I'm not asking to have as good DPS as a champ, I am asking or guard's DPS to be comparable to it. Less than 50% of champ's dps is not comparable.
Originally Posted by Myrdyrwar
and as far as "We want to have this balanced out", you are in the very small minority that thinks a guard should do something more than tank which is the whole point of being a guard.
So if the majority thinks that the guard shouldn't be able to do anything more than tank... What does the majority think about champions being able to tank some stuff perfectly? Like 3mans, 6mans, Draigoch, ToO T1? Should they be able to do anything more than dps? Should the minstrels be able to do anything more than heal? Or it's OK to dps too? At the moment Minstrel's DPS is higher than Guard's DPS and they don't have power problems in Warspeech like guards have in Overpower cause of that stupid power cost penalty.
PS if they are going to boost guard dps, they should give hunters more effective CC, and give burgs some serious AOE skills, and why can't minstrels wear heavy armour so they can take some hits??
It's easy to talk about other classes when your own class is overpowered atm. Have you ever seen how much DPS you do in Warspeech? Much lot than Guard in overpower, I can assure you. And you don't have power penalty during that. Also you can use self heals when DPSing, no healing penalty. While guards have to sacrifice a lot of survivability to be able to do at least decent DPS.
BTW, talking about Hunters CC. They do have effective CC actually. They are the only class in the game that has daze that lasts for 50 seconds, when traited for it. In a matter of fact, hunter CC is crucial part at the trash pulls in Lightning wing in Orthanc T2.
If you want to AOE DPS, a champion is what you should have rolled instead.
/agree
Originally Posted by Gomar_Eldar
I know, you will say our role in PvP is to shield-wall the minstrel. Have you ever done it? DO you know how much boring it is?
This seriously made me laugh out loud. Have you ever considered how boring it is to live you life looking at little green bars and filling them up when they get low? Consider it repayment to the humble minstrels who keep you propped up in PvE.
P.S. This thread belongs in the Suggestions Forum.
Have you ever considered how boring it is to live you life looking at little green bars and filling them up when they get low? Consider it repayment to the humble minstrels who keep you propped up in PvE.
Actually, I am leveling a minstrel at the moment and it's very close to cap. I healed in some instances on the way and I find it interesting looking at green bars and filling them up.
So if the majority thinks that the guard shouldn't be able to do anything more than tank... What does the majority think about champions being able to tank some stuff perfectly? Like 3mans, 6mans, Draigoch, ToO T1? Should they be able to do anything more than dps? Should the minstrels be able to do anything more than heal? Or it's OK to dps too? At the moment Minstrel's DPS is higher than Guard's DPS and they don't have power problems in Warspeech like guards have in Overpower cause of that stupid power cost penalty.
I wouldn't say champs tank perfectly in any instance. In 3 man instances its more of a "kill everything before it can hurt us" than tanking it. In foundry t2 they kite, so its not exactly tanking. In roots t1 or 2 the healers are going mad trying to keep the champs up. Healers have a much easier time healing guardians than champs at anything. Which means, a guard can tank "perfectly" and champion can tank "alright". In the same way a guard can DPS "alright" while a champ can dps "perfectly".
And HA to the minstrel's not having power issues. Most minstrels have what, 8-9k power? They gobble that down like a high school football team eats pizza. OP guards have what, 3k power (most even less than that). You want less power issues in OP? Trait for it. Max out the OP power cost legacy, use +power relics on you LI. Use pots. Use Take to Heart and Thrill of Danger. Still not enough power? Use +10 will stat tomes. Still not enough? Well, you wanna have your cake and eat it too, don't you?
Berf,
I am sorry that the majority of those posting here do not see the issue you do. I happen to agree with you. I have a 75 Champ and my Guard is my main, and for everything other than raid content a Champ is the BETTER choice in groups with skilled players. As was stated above, instance content requires a "burn it down" gameplay style and no real need for all the heavy mits a Guard has, but Champs with high dps and heavy armor makes the runs easy. Guard dps does not even compare with Champ dps and to get even close you MUST build for what becomes a less than 10k moral build that still gets you to about 80% of Champ dps with LESS survivability than a champ has. (bubbles ftw) And you MUST have almost an entirely different set of armor and jewelery to do so. Champs do not have to go to the same extremes to be tanks or off tanks for nonraid content to be effective tanks. The above posters are all focusing on raid content which makes up less than 1% of the game and very likely do not understand the fact that for 99% of content Champ mitigations are fine for main tanking and their dps MORE than offsets the difference in mitigations. What you are asking for is to have a useful secondary role. If most people are honest, they will admit that they rarely see a guard accepted as dps, but will see many times a Champ used as a tank of off tank. I will say I hate OP stance and feel too much time has been spent focusing on that area for guards and more time should be spent tweaking our ability to tank and let us be more than just our moral and mits, but I will also defend your belief that a Guard should be able to at least perform its secondary role well without such drastic changes to gear and traits.
PS
Minis can heal almost indefinitly if you use the right coda. They will never run out of power if they do this.
Boosting guardian dps is a silly idea. Guards hardly need any help getting into raids; they are generally in high demand. And being close to a champ in dps isn't being a champ. No raid leader with half a brain would take an "improved" dps guard over a real dps class anyway.
*Just quoting you here, although I could be quoting most of the posts in this thread and go on a similar rant*
Seriously. Most of the people replying to this thread don't play guardians and still you want to decide what guards can and cannot do?
You all seem to be stuck in SoA-thinking but in case you hadn't noticed the game has changed quite a lot since then.
ALL classes now have more than one role. Think about that for a second (well - until you get it would be preferable). That's why you have War-speech for minies, glory for champs, MoNF for lm's, different stances for burgs and different trait lines for all the classes.
In order to balance out all the different roles and keep all classes viable and appreciated Turbine needs to make sure that classes are strong at their primary roles and "strong enough" at their secondary roles.
The problem right now, however, is that guardians are not strong enough at their secondary role. Not at all.
A good and well geared guard can kick out 1k, maybe 1,1k dps at the most on a training dummy. And that requires sacrificing a LOT of survivability, a 1st age 2hander (how many guards have you seen with one of those?) and a completely different build, including swapping all traits around. And it's not sustainable - guardians burn through power like crazy, which is the main difference between 'real' dps-classes and those with secondary roles.
For comparison a well-geared burglar can hit 2,5k dps on the dummies - and I suspect champs, hunters and rk's to be at similar levels, possibly a bit lower (the burglar EM set is a bit too strong) but with a LOT better options at power managing.
Compare that with a champ. They excel at their primary role (both ST and AoE dps) and if they build for it (just like guards have to build for OP) they can be pretty effective tanks, and some times they're even close to guards in that area. If you say guard's tanking is 100% you could say champ potential for tanking is 80%.
But if you say champ dps is 100% there's no way whatsoever that guard dps can be 80% of that. Not 50, maybe 30 or 40% at best (factoring in champ sustainability puts guards even lower).
I'm not asking for guardians to be comparable to champion dps or steal raid-spots from other dedicated dps-classes - but as it stands now OP is not strong enough. It needs a buff, but obviously we're not talking a +50% dps increase.
Originally Posted by Iodan
If you roll a guard, you have to live with the dps. Try gearing yourself better, although I realize this can be hard at the lower levels. I know a 75 guard with nearly 2K strength and he is quite an effective dpser. Not a match for a tricked out endgame champ, but he is better than a lot of champs I can think of.
Sorry to say but then the champs you can think of really suck - or you don't know what an 'effective dpser' means. A champ with 1k might (who knows what he's doing) should have no problems out-dps'ing a fully geared guard. Both ST and AoE obviously. And also he'll keep going long after the guardian runs out of power.
The point is it's not worth spending that much time and effort on gearing a guard for dps.
Ways to increase guardian dps
I like the thought of increasing crit and dev crit magnitudes by a substantial amount. As it is now most skills hit, crit and dev-crit at similar numbers - there's not really any big hitters and there's not much of a difference between the skills either. With the exception of the dots it's all pretty much delivered in the same way.
Adding a straight +50% crit/dev-crit magnitude to all skills (with turbine math this means increasing crit sizes by 33% and devs by 25%) would increase dps by 14-15% at the most (if crit-capped). If that's too much it'd make sense to limit the buff to the parry chain only, for a bit of variety. Having one hard-hitting skill (twice the damage of sting or smt?) on a 10-30 secs cd wouldn't hurt either.
A good and well geared guard can kick out 1k, maybe 1,1k dps at the most on a training dummy. And that requires sacrificing a LOT of survivability, a 1st age 2hander (how many guards have you seen with one of those?) and a completely different build, including swapping all traits around. And it's not sustainable - guardians burn through power like crazy, which is the main difference between 'real' dps-classes and those with secondary roles.
For comparison a well-geared burglar can hit 2,5k dps on the dummies - and I suspect champs, hunters and rk's to be at similar levels, possibly a bit lower (the burglar EM set is a bit too strong) but with a LOT better options at power managing.
Compare that with a champ. They excel at their primary role (both ST and AoE dps) and if they build for it (just like guards have to build for OP) they can be pretty effective tanks, and some times they're even close to guards in that area. If you say guard's tanking is 100% you could say champ potential for tanking is 80%.
But if you say champ dps is 100% there's no way whatsoever that guard dps can be 80% of that. Not 50, maybe 30 or 40% at best (factoring in champ sustainability puts guards even lower).
Sorry to say but then the champs you can think of really suck - or you don't know what an 'effective dpser' means. A champ with 1k might (who knows what he's doing) should have no problems out-dps'ing a fully geared guard. Both ST and AoE obviously. And also he'll keep going long after the guardian runs out of power.
The point is it's not worth spending that much time and effort on gearing a guard for dps.
I healed in some instances on the way and I find it interesting looking at green bars and filling them up.
Well, then perhaps you should consider switching to a minstrel as your primary character. (If you want to talk about low DPS, pre War-speech minstrel was sheer misery.)
Well, then perhaps you should consider switching to a minstrel as your primary character. (If you want to talk about low DPS, pre War-speech minstrel was sheer misery.)
So you think that war speech should be removed from the minstrel class, because you rolled a mini to heal people right?
And your complaining how boring it can be at times when your healing, too?
The guard class doesn't need a complete overhaul, and I have yet to see a guard post that.
Their are small updates that the class should have, to round the class out.
It's so annoying to hear people say we shouldn't be given more DPS.
I don't just want to be given the ability to do more DPS; I want the devs to restore the ability for Guards to do as much DPS compared to Burgs/Hunters/Champs as they used to be able to do!
Guardian DPS in Overpower during MoM/SoM times was exceptional. One could argue that it was too good, but I think it was about right.
Now in RoI, our DPS (comparative to Burgs/Hunts/Champs) is so much worse its laughable. It's not because our DPS got directly nerfed but because:
Due of the stat changes Graal implemented, its much harder for Guards to get Might/Crit gear (there's considerably less of it on our set pieces) compared to how easy it is for other DPS classes to get stats that improve their DPS (especially Burgs/Hunters)*. DPS classes get substantial base crit rating bonuses, etc, so can make better use of the now much larger stat caps. A fully perfectly DPS specced Guardian is still going to have stats that don't compare too favorably with their DPS class counterparts.
Also due to the stat changes, the large OP raw % offense bonus gives us half the benefit it used to, while the other DPS classes have bonuses that went largely unaffected by the scaling up of offense (eg: Burglar positional damage is multiplicative with offense so was unaffected, a large amount of Burg/Champ/Hunter DPS gains are through critical multipliers that are likewise multiplicative with offense, Precision stance gives Hunters DPS gains via more focus rather than more offense, etc; even the raw % bonus of Fervor is considerably smaller than the OP dmg bonus)
The DPS classes have gained numerous buffs (such as the Champion revamp that allows perma-Flurry while in Fervor, etc, and the crazy addition of the very overpowered Burglar PvP set), while we got less than nothing to aid with our DPS.
* especially if you want to retain any sort of ICPR and/or survivability on your Guard
Guardians used to be within ~20% of all DPS class's single target DPS, and were similarly not far behind Champion AoE dps - all while retaining some decent survivability. Hunters could barely do any AoE damage either, so Guardian DPS was even more valuable.
Now we can only do slightly more than half as much single target DPS, and with Hunters being able to pump out huge amounts of AoE damage when there are a lot of targets, it is not worth even bothering with a DPS build on a Guardian anymore.
Why the nerf? Because Graal is lazy and/or doesn't like OP, so couldn't be bothered making any changes to it. This isn't just me ranting (well it is that too); he said as much in his dev diary at the time. I was annoyed at the time and will be even more annoyed if his great plans for the class don't at the very least involve revisiting our damage output.
Graal might argue that we are comparatively way way better at taking damage compared to other classes than we used to be as well (and that is true), so why shouldn't our DPS suffer? But that would be overlooking the fact that DPS has always been the class's secondary role ... and so shouldn't that mean we at least deserve the same attention Champion's got given to their tanking role in RoI? zzzzz
I didn't take the time to read all of the responses, because I'm wanting to go play the game but, as a long-time guardian (if not a particularly skilled one) I would like to suggest that the single largest problem facing guardian's filling any kind of dps role is the problem we have running out of power. Our dps is not terrible really as it stands now, but the power usage is absolutely terrible.
Decrease the power cost of Overpower!!
./signed (not that it will make a difference anyway)
[OOC] Faja: 'new expansion isnt even out yet, i've already failed at it'
I have played many MMO's for years and I have watched the same story many many times...what you asked it leads to homogenization of the classes..everyone can do anything equal. trust me this is bad, this will ruin the game..maybe you cannot see it now and you only care to do more dps with your guardian.
If you boost guardian dps then why someone roll a champion?Champions then will ask to boos their tanking abilities to be equal as guardians and so on and so on and that will lead to homogenization of the classes..there are many games did that and all they regret it. Classes must be unique and must have a main role in which they will excel and a second role in which they will do average.
So you think that war speech should be removed from the minstrel class, because you rolled a mini to heal people right?
No, I did not say that at all. What I meant was that prior to the introduction of War-speech skills minstrels had very low DPS, and that killing things solo was very time-consuming. At that time the DPS of guardians was far greater. I have no desire to return to the days when minstrels lacked War-speech and the skills that accompany it.
Lol running out of power is definitely one of our biggest problems. I've actually tried to make a OP build to not run out of power and it completely destroys any effective dps out put. I went with relics that give fate and will as bonuses. I also put a will and fate legacy on my belt just as an experiment to try to not run out of power. So I went with might/agility jewelry, and champ/guardish armor. it is a rather comical site. If someone could tell me how to post it we could all have a good laugh.
The OP stance isnt OP. Guards are about balance, but we really do sacrifice stats for little dps for things like Moors. Wardens can tank just as well, but have self heals AND better dps. And we only get a slightly larger Mitigation cap....
This would make many people with guards learn to love their class again.
Calypsa-1 lvl 75 Mini
Fuzzywuzzy Wasabear r5 Wargy(RM). Mangos Alamode r3 Defiler (RM and E)
I have played many MMO's for years and I have watched the same story many many times...what you asked it leads to homogenization of the classes..everyone can do anything equal. trust me this is bad, this will ruin the game..maybe you cannot see it now and you only care to do more dps with your guardian.
What we're asking for is not to be at the same level as the other classes - and no, what we're asking for is not gonna ruin the game. Try and cut back on the drama please. I agree that if all classes can do the same things at equal levels the game will be in a bad state - but that couldn't be further from the truth. Guardian dps is currently pitiful at best - and nowhere near at a comparable level. If you had bothered to learn about the current state of guardian dps you would probably have a bigger perspective...
What we're asking is not unreasonable!
Originally Posted by Ampalaea
If you boost guardian dps then why someone roll a champion?Champions then will ask to boos their tanking abilities to be equal as guardians and so on and so on and that will lead to homogenization of the classes..there are many games did that and all they regret it. Classes must be unique and must have a main role in which they will excel and a second role in which they will do average.
Champs are a LOT better off tanking than guards are dps'ing. And that is the problem (not that champs can tank, but that guards can't dps). Guardians do not perform in their secondary role at an average level - is that so hard to understand? So we ask for buffs. Simple...
If you think that the devs are gonna triple our dps AND make it sustainable simply because we address a relevant issue in a thread on the forums you really have a good imagination...
Just gonna say it one last time for those who still haven't gotten it:
Guardian dps in OP is too weak compared to all the other classes and should be buffed so guards can function in their secondary role.
I'm sure things will change with RoR and the extra 10 levels - but it doesn't hurt voicing our opinions beforehand.
It's a little depressing how many people choose to post with little/no clue about what they're talking about.
And it's a lot depressing to see people continue to post drivel AFTER a post like Evendale's, indicating that they don't even bother reading it. It's everywhere, in every thread. It's like there is only a small handful of guardians still here that have any frame of reference.
The other small handful must've left for the West, I guess.
I have played many MMO's for years and I have watched the same story many many times...what you asked it leads to homogenization of the classes..everyone can do anything equal. trust me this is bad, this will ruin the game..maybe you cannot see it now and you only care to do more dps with your guardian.
If you boost guardian dps then why someone roll a champion?Champions then will ask to boos their tanking abilities to be equal as guardians and so on and so on and that will lead to homogenization of the classes..there are many games did that and all they regret it. Classes must be unique and must have a main role in which they will excel and a second role in which they will do average.
I've picked Ampalaea's post out for the sole reason that he/she tries to refer to other MMOs in his/her example, and I feel that's making a false analogy - LOTRO is rather unique in a number of ways, and the problem here is that other classes have been homogenised, but guardians have not been at all (or at least the attempt to do this failed). I am not saying homogenization is a good thing, however if all classes are going to undergo a process which gives them a secondary role, then surely guardians should be provided with the secondary role.
That said, the key point here (though I don't know if this is what the OP intended) is the position of the guardian in the Ettenmoors. Yes, we can gear for might and sacrifice mitigations etc. However this gives us less survivability than CHAMPIONS. Now, the guardian dps will never be as good as the champion - I take that for granted. However if, when we are traited to do some 2k hits, we are surviving less time than champions because of their survivability skills (especially their bubbles) then there is a problem. If we are going to trait OP, then there needs to be a viable return for survivability - or instead, the guardian dps with a shield could be increased.
The other point that has been mentioned is the power problem, which I also agree with - while we have several skills which can yield a decent bit of damage (though comparatively not enough as I said above), we are quickly put in a situation where we have run out of power - even with reduced power cost legacies. If this happens then we are unable to dps, and so we die. Added to this our skill attack speed is diabolically slow, so while champs (as the comparative class according to other posters here) have knocked off ~8k with swift strike, then battle frenzy and relentless strike, we are still in the induction of brutal assault.
While I do not feel the need for guardians to have a second position in raids - I agree with some previous posters that a good raid leader should never take guards as dps, nor should there be any changes which would allow this, an increase, or at least a more equable balance in our Ettenmoors capabilities seems justified.
...And about PvE: Champions are better tanks than Guardians are DPSers. We want to have this balanced out.
I am not sure I agree with this. I see many champs melt if they pull agro in ToO. If you are speaking of 3 and 6-mans then it's irrelevant because these are designed to be easy enough that class make-up is flexible. Many times a champ can tank in these situations but that is because it's very easy tanking. You could also run with 2-3 guards in most fellowship instances.
Flexibility is good for everyone. For intance, I tank 3-mans in OP stance and that would be quite impossible in T2 ToO. Just because we can't match champion DPS numbers does not mean that we can't fill an open slot in most fellowships. We can. Also, we have to do more gear switching now to jump back and forth between roles. We are no longer able to just change stances and roll. Things have changed but it's not like we are helpless or without anything to do in game.
They shouldn't...
Captain dps is about even w/ guardian dps at the moment. Maybe slightly higher, but only in their dps line. I have no clue what wardens can do. Seems like virtually all the non-dps classes should be hovering around 1.1k in their respective dps lines. (core dps being burg, champ, hunter, rk)
--Some misinformation:
I don't know any dps classes that are hitting above 2k on training dummies. Most "good" dps'ers are hitting about 1.6k. The great ones hit about 2k. I've looked through the hunter & champ forums lately and that's what i've been finding. This assumes no buffs from other classes.
--Who said champs were better for tanking? Why... Would that be the case? They take a lot more damage and aren't as good at holding threat. The amount of damage they do in glory is maybe 400-500 dps (against 3+ mobs) because they've left most of their might gear at home, and glory has no outgoing damage buffs like fervor.
Virtually anyone can tank RoF/Foundry these days because they're kind of easy instances... Want a challenge? Pull 2-3 mob packs at a time with a guard; I'd love to see a champ survive that (they won't). On the other hand champs will love being with you since they can finally take advantage of their 10 target aoe's.
--Only thing... I really want from OP... Is make the brutal assault bleed a 100% chance. Well... It'd also be nice if the cooldown or magnitude of take to heart was increased; I don't know why that is in the yellow line.
--Some misinformation:
--Who said champs were better for tanking? Why... Would that be the case? They take a lot more damage and aren't as good at holding threat. The amount of damage they do in glory is maybe 400-500 dps (against 3+ mobs) because they've left most of their might gear at home, and glory has no outgoing damage buffs like fervor.
I have my doubts as to a champ in glory falling all the way to 500 dps against 3 targets. I can get my dps to around 600 on three targets when I am sword and boarding with only scrolls and might food for my buffs.
DuneBug, Hunters, Burgs and Champs using 2 dummies at once routinely hit over 2k, and do so easily. Champ single target dps comes in around 1.5k+ or so depending on build. Comparing our dps to a Cappy and not including what their marks bring to a group in dps is a failure to think things through. (Your number of 1.6k x.1 x 4) With 4 other dps classes in a group this means that in truth a Cappy brings as much as 2/3 MORE than we do plus brings so much more to the table (Rez, group buffs, increase to damage from pet/banner) along with equal strait dps. When you have an empty dps slot to fill and the choice of ANYTHING other than a Guard, you will be better off taking them.
I am not sure I agree with this. I see many champs melt if they pull agro in ToO. If you are speaking of 3 and 6-mans then it's irrelevant because these are designed to be easy enough that class make-up is flexible. Many times a champ can tank in these situations but that is because it's very easy tanking. You could also run with 2-3 guards in most fellowship instances.
Champs can raise their tactical mitigation to the same value as guards, as it is mostly gear based. If you do not have 2k+ vitality, it is a bit harder, but it is still possible with 1500 vitality or even less. On my guard I usually reach cap without the captain set bonus or the raven, as our LM is in the other group and our captains are not fully geared. If your champs are melting, it is probably because they went for the maximum DPS. But you lose a lot to gain a very small edge in DPS, and if they lost 5 or 10% in DPS they would be pretty sturdy. Regarding fellowship instances, you are right to say that you could run with 2-3 guards, but it would be much faster to run with one guard and 1-2 champion.
Originally Posted by JeffF611
When you have an empty dps slot to fill and the choice of ANYTHING other than a Guard, you will be better off taking them.
Case in point : I have a dwarf guard which has been main tanking raid content for years (four and a half year of raiding in lotro). I have a complete set of armor and jewellery for my OP setup, and I just recently brought a champion to level 75. Guess who I am asked to bring in raid and instances ? If there are no guards: my guard, if there is already a guard: my champion. Even with a new reroll only half-geared, my DPS is way over my seasonned guard with top-end DPS raid gear. I will probably never run in OP now that I have a champion.
DuneBug, Hunters, Burgs and Champs using 2 dummies at once routinely hit over 2k, and do so easily. Champ single target dps comes in around 1.5k+ or so depending on build. Comparing our dps to a Cappy and not including what their marks bring to a group in dps is a failure to think things through. (Your number of 1.6k x.1 x 4) With 4 other dps classes in a group this means that in truth a Cappy brings as much as 2/3 MORE than we do plus brings so much more to the table (Rez, group buffs, increase to damage from pet/banner) along with equal strait dps. When you have an empty dps slot to fill and the choice of ANYTHING other than a Guard, you will be better off taking them.
1. Parsing aoe dps is pointless. It grows and shrinks with the number of targets. I've hit 4k on my champ in skirmraids. How is that relevant? Besides i'm relatively certain a guard can hit pretty solid numbers if parsing on multiple targe
2. And yes that's exactly right. Captain's add to group dps by buffing. If they didn't, nobody would bring them. The caveat is that having more than one captain in a group adds very little. Also captain aoe is terrible, far worse than guardian aoe.
3. If you have an empty dps slot, you take a real dps class. If it's not that important to you than you just bring whoever signs up first. It's not like anyone's going to turn down an OP guard for a warden or minstrel or 2nd captain because they want to min/max that slot.
I'm not trying to be mean about it. If you raise guard dps to be even with a champion, then there's very little distinction and they may's well be rolled into the same class. And as for non-dps... Why should a guard be any better than a minstrel, captain or warden? For that matter, even a red-traited LM has about the same single target dps.
Also re. champ durability...
I don't really want to go through it detail by detail, but unless you have a champ-tank you probably shouldn't talk. They're durable enough, but don't compare to the durability of the guard... And if you don't have a champ-tank, i'd be happy to explain it.
No, I did not say that at all. What I meant was that prior to the introduction of War-speech skills minstrels had very low DPS, and that killing things solo was very time-consuming. At that time the DPS of guardians was far greater. I have no desire to return to the days when minstrels lacked War-speech and the skills that accompany it.
I have good news for you! Guardians getting more DPS has absolutely no relevance to minstrels losing War-speech.
But I also want to be useful those times when I am not tanking, like when soloing or PVPing. Or for example when we have more tanks than needed for raid, but my alt is locked, I can go OP and do some DPS in the raid.
This!
Originally Posted by Gilias
ALL classes now have more than one role.
The problem right now, however, is that guardians are not strong enough at their secondary role. Not at all.
Guardian's need a secondary role.
Whether it is DPS or Support, or a mix of both...
Smth else to do in raids other than tanking.
And BE WANTED for it.
There are ways:
Balance power consumption
Self heals
Increase Bleed Dmg
Increase Crit chance for stagger, TTK, BA etc
Decrease animation time while in OP
Increase FM chance
etc
What is wrong with being able to DPS , say as good as a champ tanks ???
Or as a captain heals/tanks etc ???
Give me a break everybody else has options,
we raid either as tanks or NOT AT ALL !!
I wouldn't say champs tank perfectly in any instance. In 3 man instances its more of a "kill everything before it can hurt us" than tanking it. In foundry t2 they kite, so its not exactly tanking. In roots t1 or 2 the healers are going mad trying to keep the champs up. Healers have a much easier time healing guardians than champs at anything. Which means, a guard can tank "perfectly" and champion can tank "alright". In the same way a guard can DPS "alright" while a champ can dps "perfectly".
And HA to the minstrel's not having power issues. Most minstrels have what, 8-9k power? They gobble that down like a high school football team eats pizza. OP guards have what, 3k power (most even less than that). You want less power issues in OP? Trait for it. Max out the OP power cost legacy, use +power relics on you LI. Use pots. Use Take to Heart and Thrill of Danger. Still not enough power? Use +10 will stat tomes. Still not enough? Well, you wanna have your cake and eat it too, don't you?
Plus rep to you friend. I totally agree, the OP simply wants to qq because his current character is a guard and can't compare with anyone else's DPS. The game remains balanced BECAUSE Minstrel's heal, Hunters DPS, and Guards tank, in general. Yes Champs can tank, Minstral's can tank too if you get right down to it, and we won't talk about Wardens, since imo people crying about Warden's and Runekeepers being previously nerfed caused them to become tremendously overpowered now.
The real point is you want the guardian to be all around closer to every other class, which then would cause people to wonder why anyone would pick any class in the first place if they are all the same. Giving guards higher dps is the same as making every other class able to take more hits or heal themselves and others even more effeciently. If you do that then why have classes in the first place? If you roll a guard, your role in any given group is to tank, period. Off-tanking is allowed, and so is being dps (garbage that it is), but generally when people run something and especially if they are being serious about wanting to finish a raid, skirm, etc. they want a guard tanking. It's quite sickening to see champs and Wardens tanking because they are overpowered enough that some people will play them and tank instead of a guard. I say nerf the other classes in regards to tanking ability so guards can really shine once more.
"My girl, my girl, Don't lie to me, tell me Where did you sleep last night?"
my bad I said the OP when I meant the other guy who agrees with him who said minstrels have higher dps than guards. My bad, but my comment still stands, having garbage dps is part of being a guard period.
"My girl, my girl, Don't lie to me, tell me Where did you sleep last night?"
Member Online status:
Reputation:
), I think we cannot rly dps... It's true, that we have some really nice AoE skills, but still, nearly every class can over-dps us. (Good to be better than cpts... :P)
, just the suggestion. So,) now I found out what could be a small, but effective help for us:
Senior Member Online status:
Senior Member Online status:
Reputation:
Re: Please make the OP guards a viable DPS
Senior Member Online status:
Originally Posted by Jewl_of_the_lake
Member Online status:
Century Member Online status:
Grand Member Online status:
Senior Member Online status:
Senior Member Online status:
Senior Member Online status:
Junior Member Online status:
Senior Member Online status:
Senior Member Online status:
Century Member Online status:
Grand Member Online status:
Reply With Quote
Posting Permissions
