When ToO first came out and I went and took a look at the sets and the set bonus's I took one look and thought. Nope - not for me. I liked my 5 set dragon set bonus too much for any of those other sets.
But I get a lot of 'dude, you need get the ToO stuff' even people turning my guard down because of it. So I went to take a closer look, and .... found out I'm right. The dragon set is better. Maybe I read something wrong. But these are the numbers I came up with.
Difference between Laingarth and dragon. Just going to show the differences, when Laingarth is better just plain number, when dragon better the number in (brackets).
AC 362, Might 19, Vit 2, Parry (163), Block (22), Finess (70), Agil 188, IncHeal 611, Moral 512, pwr (140) PhyMit (617)
As I see it ToO set has 362 more AC, but what is AC, mostly common mitigations which most of us have capped and the dragon set has 617 more physical mit which trumps the AC boost anyway.
The dragon set has 188 more Agility and 19 more might. But the dragon set has more parry, block and finess to counter this.
The ToO set has more inchealing. Which is nice but 512 more inch is not a game changers.
Which brings us to the ToO set has 2 more vit which is what, 10 moral and 512 more moral for a total of 522 more moral. With the Dragon 5 set bonus warrior fortitude via TTinfo = +2983.5 Moral and +1686 Maximum moral.
Warrior fortitude without dragon bonus via TTinfo = +918 moral and +843 Maximum Moral.
Which means 2065.5 larger self heal and 843 higher Max moral for dragon set. I can have this up 2 min out of every 3.5 min. So for 60% of the time I can have more moral with the dragon set. Plus every 3.5 min I can have a very respectable self heal. With the 5 set bonus almost a 3k heal. Without it less then 1k, which means less then the heal of a health pot.
To me the dragon set is clearly superior. After this comparison I did however snag the ToO shoulders to swap out the 665 physical mit on the dragon set for the 282 block and 54 might. I'm capped on physical mit anyway so this was a no brainer.
So am I crazy? Is there something I'm missing? Or is dragon set better ?
You are only looking at the stats and ignoring the set bonuses, which is wrong. Just look at the set bonuses:
- 3 set bonus: -60 seconds Pledge cooldown. Combine that with -60 sec Pledge cooldown on weapon and you can use pledge every 3 minutes instead of every 5 minutes.
- 5 set bonus: Shield-Blow adds threat over time effect on the target. With this set bonus, shield blow turns into the best single target aggro skill. Adds very good threat over time and it doesn't require a block response. This set bonus is often the difference between keeping and losing aggro on the boss. I definitely noticed a difference in those DPS race boss fights before and after I got the 5th piece from that set.
If you like the heal and morale bonus to Warrior's Heart, just switch to the Draigoch set before you use WH, use it and switch back to the Orthanc set after. But the Orthanc set is a must-have and it should be your main tanking set.
Difference between Laingarth and dragon. Just going to show the differences, when Laingarth is better just plain number, when dragon better the number in (brackets).
AC 362, Might 19, Vit 2, Parry (163), Block (22), Finess (70), Agil 188, IncHeal 611, Moral 512, pwr (140) PhyMit (617)
As I see it ToO set has 362 more AC, but what is AC, mostly common mitigations which most of us have capped and the dragon set has 617 more physical mit which trumps the AC boost anyway.
The dragon set has 188 more Agility and 19 more might. But the dragon set has more parry, block and finess to counter this.
Your forgetting everything that these stats offer aswell, armour value, might, agility and vitality add to your other stats like physical and tactical mitigation/mastery, block/parry/evade rating, crit. Dragon set may seem like it offers some better stats in the block and parry department but the gain from Laingarth is much better than those.
You are only looking at the stats and ignoring the set bonuses, which is wrong. Just look at the set bonuses:
- 3 set bonus: -60 seconds Pledge cooldown. Combine that with -60 sec Pledge cooldown on weapon and you can use pledge every 3 minutes instead of every 5 minutes.
- 5 set bonus: Shield-Blow adds threat over time effect on the target. With this set bonus, shield blow turns into the best single target aggro skill. Adds very good threat over time and it doesn't require a block response. This set bonus is often the difference between keeping and losing aggro on the boss. I definitely noticed a difference in those DPS race boss fights before and after I got the 5th piece from that set.
If you like the heal and morale bonus to Warrior's Heart, just switch to the Draigoch set before you use WH, use it and switch back to the Orthanc set after. But the Orthanc set is a must-have and it should be your main tanking set.
^^ this, sorry TC you are wrong. Pay more attention to set bonuses. Also want to note that Physical Mit is not as useful as you the TC seems to think it is, unless you gear for spars not PVE.
Last edited by doubles84; Jun 13 2012 at 11:15 AM.
As I see it ToO set has 362 more AC, but what is AC, mostly common mitigations which most of us have capped and the dragon set has 617 more physical mit which trumps the AC boost anyway.
Both are pointless as you should be capped on common mitigation anyway.
Originally Posted by Gandie2
The dragon set has 188 more Agility and 19 more might. But the dragon set has more parry, block and finess to counter this.
The ToO set has more inchealing. Which is nice but 512 more inch is not a game changers.
So 188 agility (which also means less missing) and 512 incoming healing are insignificant but 70 finesse and 166 parry are significant? I'm afraid I do not understand.
But your numbers are off anyway. If you account for stats in the derived numbers, draigoch gets you 124 power, 70 finesse, and 500ish physical mitigation. Orthanc set is better in every other aspect.
Your forgetting everything that these stats offer aswell, armour value, might, agility and vitality add to your other stats like physical and tactical mitigation/mastery, block/parry/evade rating, crit. Dragon set may seem like it offers some better stats in the block and parry department but the gain from Laingarth is much better than those.
Not really. Moral is moral. It adds nothing but moral. The difference from dragon to the ToO set in Vit which does add more then just moral is only 2 vit. The 188 agility is nice. No doubt about it. The things agility does for a guard are, Parry, Evade, and Critical rating. These advantages are partially offset by the things the dragon set has more of. Namly more parry, which is one of the things agility gives us, more Finess not much more but finesse = less chance for your opponet to block parry and evade which leaves the 188 agility bringing 644 points more evade for a tank. I did not say agility was not important. I just said the advantages of the 188 agility where partially offset by the higher parry and finess on the dragon set. Might is nice, but again like vit might has very small increase over dragon set, 19 points, and this in fact if I go 5 pieces dragon and sholders from ToO I end up with higher might then pure ToO would give.
Originally Posted by Gomar_Eldar
You are only looking at the stats and ignoring the set bonuses, which is wrong. Just look at the set bonuses:
- 3 set bonus: -60 seconds Pledge cooldown. Combine that with -60 sec Pledge cooldown on weapon and you can use pledge every 3 minutes instead of every 5 minutes.
- 5 set bonus: Shield-Blow adds threat over time effect on the target. With this set bonus, shield blow turns into the best single target aggro skill. Adds very good threat over time and it doesn't require a block response. This set bonus is often the difference between keeping and losing aggro on the boss. I definitely noticed a difference in those DPS race boss fights before and after I got the 5th piece from that set.
If you like the heal and morale bonus to Warrior's Heart, just switch to the Draigoch set before you use WH, use it and switch back to the Orthanc set after. But the Orthanc set is a must-have and it should be your main tanking set.
This however is interesting. I will have to take another look at the 5 set bonus. As a rule I don't have trouble with agro -- except single target boss fights -- this is where I often struggle (if not given a few seconds) but have been working on my technique for this after reading a couple posts here. If the tower set bonus can help on this and I continue to struggle I may get it just for single target boss dps race fights.
The difference might be a question of what content you are doing. Are you trying to raid T2 ToO then you probably want that 5 set piece from orthanc. Otherwise maybe its not worth the difference if you are having no trouble doing other content. Then you can save the heavy cost in seals. I don't PVMP much to comment on the merits of the set differences in the moors and again that would only be a factor if you PVMP.
I noticed upgrades in just about every area when switching to the orthanc set...the morale you gain from WH is pretty much offset by the straight morale increase from not wearing draig. So the bonus is just a 2k higher heal every 3.5min (if traited). The agility is huge, draig has none, and it's really, really obvious when you switch.
Borken - Dwarrowdelf
Alphbork - Firefoot
Pineapplejuice - E
Having to wear specific gear to have a viable heal to me means that something in the class is broken.
Gear should not be used to make up for a classes shortcomings.
Having to wear specific gear to have a viable heal to me means that something in the class is broken.
Gear should not be used to make up for a classes shortcomings.
What is broken is this self heal has never been updated and was not written to scale with level.
When guards were lvl 50 the self heal was the same size as now. Just like the man heal. Both have become useless instead of a really great ability.
When guards were capped at 50 a great guard had what?? 4k health?? maybe 6k I can't remember... and heal pots healed for 550 or something like that. Back then a 900 moral self heal was sweet. Now with guards having 16 -22k moral and moral pots healing for 1400 what the hec is a 900 moral self heal. The man heal is almost worthless now as you need stop and stand still for 6 seconds to use it.
While it may be useful, I never liked the idea of swapping gear in the middle of a fight. It seemed too contrived to me (maybe not the weapons so much, but entire armor sets is a bit over the top).
And once it's facilitated, like in WoW, you head down the slippery slope where fights end up getting tuned to the point it's required. Personally, I hope this never happens but I know a lot of burgs, for instance, who already swap a lot of gear on the fly just to push their game that much higher.
I can also appreciate, however, how this can differentiate players and their abilities. It's just a matter of personal preference where you want to draw the line on balancing fights.
Well for me, not having a full set of moors gear and only running with 3 audacity I need top swap to the drag set just so I can get decent heals when soloing. It is sad that creeps can take out 2 hnts and a guard just because of there lack of audacity. So I see swapping gear as a must if you want any kind of self heals. Honestly tho, they should make our armor/skills so that we don't have to beg borrow and steal to make it work.
Well for me, not having a full set of moors gear and only running with 3 audacity I need top swap to the drag set just so I can get decent heals when soloing. It is sad that creeps can take out 2 hnts and a guard just because of there lack of audacity. So I see swapping gear as a must if you want any kind of self heals. Honestly tho, they should make our armor/skills so that we don't have to beg borrow and steal to make it work.
I like this. To me the OP makes a good case for the Dragon set. To me the first responses seem to be people that where of the 'mindset' that ToO was just better because it was the hot ToO set and they didn't really read understand what the OP was saying.
Then there was another batch that seemed to all say, yeah the self heal on dragon is a must have but keep both sets and hot swap to dragon to heal. Which to me does not seem practical. With a third party program or special hardware maybe. But I have neither.
So I have a question for the people that recognize the Dragon sets heal as being worth having, but say just have both and hot swap for heals. The question is;
If you could not hot swap, but could only have one or the other, would you tend to go for the dragon set and the heal? Especially if going for 5 dragon and 1 other piece that brought the two sets even closer together in other aspects.
I like this. To me the OP makes a good case for the Dragon set. To me the first responses seem to be people that where of the 'mindset' that ToO was just better because it was the hot ToO set and they didn't really read understand what the OP was saying.
Having a different opinion does not equal not understanding. ToO set has better stats, better set bonuses and of course looks much much better...
Originally Posted by tharkun3
If you could not hot swap, but could only have one or the other, would you tend to go for the dragon set and the heal? Especially if going for 5 dragon and 1 other piece that brought the two sets even closer together in other aspects.
I don't switch. I go ToO all the way, because it's the better set. Well, 5 parts anyway, since I use Huranc on the shoulder slot, great armour piece that one.
Originally Posted by Gomar_Eldar
You are only looking at the stats and ignoring the set bonuses, which is wrong. Just look at the set bonuses:
- 3 set bonus: -60 seconds Pledge cooldown. Combine that with -60 sec Pledge cooldown on weapon and you can use pledge every 3 minutes instead of every 5 minutes.
- 5 set bonus: Shield-Blow adds threat over time effect on the target. With this set bonus, shield blow turns into the best single target aggro skill. Adds very good threat over time and it doesn't require a block response. This set bonus is often the difference between keeping and losing aggro on the boss. I definitely noticed a difference in those DPS race boss fights before and after I got the 5th piece from that set.
If you like the heal and morale bonus to Warrior's Heart, just switch to the Draigoch set before you use WH, use it and switch back to the Orthanc set after. But the Orthanc set is a must-have and it should be your main tanking set.
this.
Also every serious tank I know who tries or does ToO T2 regularly wears the ToO set. Why? Because it's better.
Also don't forget that Armour rating also means tactical mitigation, which you should have capped in ToO T2...
Yes ToO set is better. At the same time I get over 7k health in heals from the dragon set. As for which one looks better that is purely opinion based. Have you tried dying the Drag set? I really like the way the shoulder guards look. The drag set gives us what we should normally have healing. If they would fix our self heals I can see one of two things happening. Either the drag set would become alot more viable because it would give insane heals, or it would be rendered obsolete because we would finally have the heals we deserve. Developers should give us options in terms of tanking. If we want to trait yellow and have good self heals we should be able to do that without having second rate armor.
Your forgetting everything that these stats offer aswell, armour value, might, agility and vitality add to your other stats like physical and tactical mitigation/mastery, block/parry/evade rating, crit. Dragon set may seem like it offers some better stats in the block and parry department but the gain from Laingarth is much better than those.
QFT. The OP's stat analysis is totally off without factoring out the benefits from AGI, etc.
Nor does he mention Pledge cooldown.
I also tank ToO t2 weekly and use the ToO set.. I do however have the Dragon set in a bag that I leave open.. in boss fights I swap to dragon set and use WF before the fights starts, then switch back to ToO... a minute later I switch back to dragon and use it again then switch to ToO... a minute later I deep breathe, switch back to dragon and use it again.. then back to ToO.
Having the increased morale is nice.. but more importantly the reduced incoming dmg in threat stance.. as for using it as a heal.. only in pvp.... if my healers cant keep me alive enough that I need to heal myself.. we have a bigger problem.
Laingarth has better stats and you will notice your guardian to be more sturdy while wearing it. Also Laingarth has better set bonuses.
While the 5 piece bonus of the dragon set was a nice buff to Warriors Fortitude, it isn't needed for any of the content.
Just realize that while champions are awesome, we want you to be awesome too. That's why we do the things we do. - Harumph
I'm fairly certain no one is leaving the game due to confusion of what a strawman is or isn't. Which tells me we're done here.
Last edited by Sapience; Aug 16 2010 at 12:12 PM.
I sometimes feel like the indomitable protector set was just thrown together on a whim with poop loads of vitality and never revisited. The orthanc sets tend to be more balanced and are a tier above the dragon sets, statistically.
Still, you can just compensate with jewelry if you wish, and the dragon armor is still good enough for anything in the game at this stage. FYI, agility isn't on the set for avoidance, it's for lowering the inherent 10% miss chance on level.. just so happens it provides some other minor bonuses.
I really liked the 5 piece bonus from the indomitable protector set, but prefer the laingarth set over all. Eventually I just set a macro to swap between the two sets so I could enjoy the warrior's fortitude bonus while still wearing the laingarth set.
The OP(laigathel?) set is pretty good too, but I don't really care for the other one.
QFT. The OP's stat analysis is totally off without factoring out the benefits from AGI, etc.
Nor does he mention Pledge cooldown.
I thought I did touch on these things. But let me try again. These numbers are from listing all the stats etc that each peace of each set gives plus listing the set bonus, IE the + 68 vit from Laingarth set bonus is added into the total for Vit from that set. I then total all that each set gives in each catagory. I have only posted the difference and which one is on the + side.
Laingarth has
+329 armor - this is equal to 329 common physical mit and 66 Tactical mit. This fully accounts for what the extra 329 AC does for a guard. If another 66 tactical mit is making or breaking your day then go for it.
+3 Vit and +188 agility.
The agility affects three things; critical rating, parry rating, evade rating. The 188 agility increases crit rate by approximately .7%. It increases parry by almost 1%. Evade is increased by almost 2%, amazingly enough the exact amount that the dragon set does for the 3 piece bonus. What agility does not do is increase chance to hit. At least not according to the tool tip and with Turbine just recently going through the trouble of revamping what the tool tip says and individualizing for each class what the tool tip reads I think it tells the truth the whole truth. If agility increased your chance 'to hit' it would say so when tool tipped.
Laingarth has 611 more incoming healing which is nice no doubt. Probably close to +2% inch. It also has 512 more Moral. Again very nice. Who does not want more moral. But as I stated in my OP with dragon 60% of the time I actually have 800 more moral then with Laingarth. Since it is a clickable skill I have that extra 800 moral when I need it.
With laingarth I get to have a skill that lasts 15 seconds be on a 4 min cooldown instead of 5 min, and yes, if I have the legacy on my weapon, which i do, then it is on a 3 min cooldown instead of 4 min. To me anything that only lasts 15 seconds and is on such a long cooldown is not game changing. Don't get me wrong. I love in those 'oh shoot' moments being able to click GP. Just that things that have that long a cooldown I tend to save for 'Oh shoot' moments, which for me don't happen every three minutes like clock work. If the Laingarth set had the ability to reset this skill so I could use it again almost immediately it would be much more tempting for me. But as a rule if I have to wait 3 minutes I really don't need it again at that point and it is up again for that next 'oh shoot' moment. There are exceptions of course. Boss lightning wing sure it might be handy to have this on 3 min. But waiting another minute just is not that big a deal. Typically even on a three min CD you are only going to use it twice. Guess what on a four minute I typically get to use it twice.
Now lets look at what the dragon set with Laingarth shoulders has more of then the Laingarth.
It has 35 more might. Might for guard, per the tool tip is 'very important' increases your melee offence rating, ranged offence rating, physical mit, block rate and parry rate.
Dragon has 163 more Parry, parry being one of the three things the agility gives us, and 302 more block not counting what additional block that comes from the might.
Dragon has 70 more Finesse, not much but Finesse does increase our chance to hit mobs, where as agility does not. Finesse reduces the mobs chance to 'block, parry, or evade. All of which increases our chance to hit them.
Dragon has 48 more physical mit, again not counting what little would come from the extra might, and 108 more ICPR and finally +2% to evade which as I mentioned above is what the 188 extra agility Laingarth has adds to a guard.
Lastly dragon gives +200% to our self heal and +100% to our moral boost from the same skill. Which was the trust of my OP.
As they say in the fight business this is the tale of the tape. To me I add all this up and the dragon set is better. The only thing anyone has said that I do wonder about is the extra agro for the 5 piece set bonus. But as a rule I'm not having problems with agro. Especially with applying some tactics I read on this forum. Using Engage proactively instead of reactively is probably the biggest single help. I took it one step farther then the post I read in that I like to use it when I get a reactionary. I see Litany light up and I'll click 'Engage' then use Litany followed by the shield agro builders. This seems to work really well.
PS I have tried to calculate what the extra agility et give us in real terms but if one of the people that have both sets would equip dragon with laingarth shoulders note the % for evade, block, physical mit, tactical mit, critical hit Moral, and any other pertinant stat, both with using warriors fort and not and post the numbers for the two sets that would be great.
I thought I did touch on these things. But let me try again. These numbers are from listing all the stats etc that each peace of each set gives plus listing the set bonus, IE the + 68 vit from Laingarth set bonus is added into the total for Vit from that set. I then total all that each set gives in each catagory. I have only posted the difference and which one is on the + side.
Laingarth has
+329 armor - this is equal to 329 common physical mit and 66 Tactical mit. This fully accounts for what the extra 329 AC does for a guard. If another 66 tactical mit is making or breaking your day then go for it.
What it seems you haven't added is the tactical mitigation and resistance you get from the extra vitality. It's not just the morale.
Originally Posted by Gandie2
+3 Vit and +188 agility.
The agility affects three things; critical rating, parry rating, evade rating. The 188 agility increases crit rate by approximately .7%. It increases parry by almost 1%. Evade is increased by almost 2%, amazingly enough the exact amount that the dragon set does for the 3 piece bonus. What agility does not do is increase chance to hit. At least not according to the tool tip and with Turbine just recently going through the trouble of revamping what the tool tip says and individualizing for each class what the tool tip reads I think it tells the truth the whole truth. If agility increased your chance 'to hit' it would say so when tool tipped.
Agility still reduces miss chance. I have seen a post from a dev somewhere saying that it still does, even though the tooltip doesn't say so. Proof: My guardian with ~350 agility has 8-9% miss most of the time. My burglar with 2000+ agility has 0-1% miss most of the time. My guardian, before Orthanc came out with the new sets, with Draigoch set and below 200 agility had 9-10% miss.
Originally Posted by Gandie2
Laingarth has 611 more incoming healing which is nice no doubt. Probably close to +2% inch. It also has 512 more Moral. Again very nice. Who does not want more moral. But as I stated in my OP with dragon 60% of the time I actually have 800 more moral then with Laingarth. Since it is a clickable skill I have that extra 800 moral when I need it.
How do you have 800 more morale? Base extra morale without the set bonus is 800. With set bonus it's 1600. If the ToO set has 500 more morale in the stats, then the Draigoch set actually has only 300 more morale. I would take +2% inc healing over +300 morale every day. And that 300 morale is 60% of the time, while I have +2% inc healing 100% of the time.
Originally Posted by Gandie2
With laingarth I get to have a skill that lasts 15 seconds be on a 4 min cooldown instead of 5 min, and yes, if I have the legacy on my weapon, which i do, then it is on a 3 min cooldown instead of 4 min. To me anything that only lasts 15 seconds and is on such a long cooldown is not game changing. Don't get me wrong. I love in those 'oh shoot' moments being able to click GP. Just that things that have that long a cooldown I tend to save for 'Oh shoot' moments, which for me don't happen every three minutes like clock work. If the Laingarth set had the ability to reset this skill so I could use it again almost immediately it would be much more tempting for me. But as a rule if I have to wait 3 minutes I really don't need it again at that point and it is up again for that next 'oh shoot' moment. There are exceptions of course. Boss lightning wing sure it might be handy to have this on 3 min. But waiting another minute just is not that big a deal. Typically even on a three min CD you are only going to use it twice. Guess what on a four minute I typically get to use it twice.
Of course, in short fights of 3-4 minutes, Pledge cd doesn't make much difference. But in longer fights it does. And to say that a "skill that lasts only 15 seconds and has long cooldown is not game changing"... Pledge is often the difference between wipe and success. And how much times have you been in situation like this? "Oh damn, I'm getting low on morale and my pledge is on cd. Deep Breath is on cd too. Oh no, I'm dead. And it's a wipe. If only I survived few more seconds until I had my pledge back up, we would have made it."
Originally Posted by Gandie2
Dragon has 70 more Finesse, not much but Finesse does increase our chance to hit mobs, where as agility does not. Finesse reduces the mobs chance to 'block, parry, or evade. All of which increases our chance to hit them.
So 70 finesse is worth mentioning but 66 tactical mitigation is not? You say "If another 66 tactical mit is making or breaking your day then go for it." I would say "If another 70 finesse is making or breaking your day then go for it."
Originally Posted by Gandie2
Lastly dragon gives +200% to our self heal and +100% to our moral boost from the same skill. Which was the trust of my OP.
Bonus which you can get if you swap to Dragon set before you use WF and then swap back again to the ToO set, like many have said so far in the thread.
Originally Posted by Gandie2
The only thing anyone has said that I do wonder about is the extra agro for the 5 piece set bonus. But as a rule I'm not having problems with agro.
Not having aggro problems where? And with how good dps people?
Let me tell you something. When Orthanc came out, I got 4 pieces of that set. Everyone had 2nd age weapons and I had no aggro problem. Then I went away from the game for something more than a month and when I came back, what I found was full raid team with 1st age weapons. Aggro problems started. When I got that 5th piece, aggro problems were gone.
So, when I add everything up, Orthanc set is better. I only switch to Dragon set before I use WF, then I switch back after. And I suggest you do the same. I can't do the calculations now, I did them months ago. Trust me, if Dragon set was better, I wouldn't have bothered getting the Orthanc set.
you're just choosing which facts to ignore and which not, as it suits your purposes, making your whole argument ridiculous actually... but heck, gonna reply anyways...
Originally Posted by Gandie2
The agility affects three things; critical rating, parry rating, evade rating. The 188 agility increases crit rate by approximately .7%. It increases parry by almost 1%. Evade is increased by almost 2%, amazingly enough the exact amount that the dragon set does for the 3 piece bonus. What agility does not do is increase chance to hit. At least not according to the tool tip and with Turbine just recently going through the trouble of revamping what the tool tip says and individualizing for each class what the tool tip reads I think it tells the truth the whole truth. If agility increased your chance 'to hit' it would say so when tool tipped.
let me tell you from long Moors experience fighting spiders, Agi DOES affect miss-chance. Pretty much everyone I know that pays attention to this stuff agrees. Agi = reduces miss-chance... just because it doesn't fit your argument, doesn't render it invalid.
Originally Posted by Gandie2
With laingarth I get to have a skill that lasts 15 seconds be on a 4 min cooldown instead of 5 min, and yes, if I have the legacy on my weapon, which i do, then it is on a 3 min cooldown instead of 4 min. To me anything that only lasts 15 seconds and is on such a long cooldown is not game changing.
GP not game changing? Excuse me, what game are you playing?
Originally Posted by Gandie2
Now lets look at what the dragon set with Laingarth shoulders has more of then the Laingarth.
It has 35 more might. Might for guard, per the tool tip is 'very important' increases your melee offence rating, ranged offence rating, physical mit, block rate and parry rate.
Pretty much every serious Guard I know uses 5 parts Laingarth + Huranc... so your argument here is unimportant.
Originally Posted by Gandie2
Dragon has 70 more Finesse, not much but Finesse does increase our chance to hit mobs, where as agility does not. Finesse reduces the mobs chance to 'block, parry, or evade. All of which increases our chance to hit them.
woohoo, 70 Finesse... wow... if you really need Finesse, go 5 parts Laingarth + the gloves from Shadow T2...
Originally Posted by Gandie2
Dragon has 48 more physical mit, again not counting what little would come from the extra might, and 108 more ICPR and finally +2% to evade which as I mentioned above is what the 188 extra agility Laingarth has adds to a guard.
Sorry, but I can't take anyone seriously who uses this as an argument... if you're not capped with Physical mitigation, you're not a Guardian... simple as that... 108 ICPR? Wow, that's gonna make a huuuuuuge difference... *rollseyes*
Originally Posted by Gandie2
As they say in the fight business this is the tale of the tape. To me I add all this up and the dragon set is better. The only thing anyone has said that I do wonder about is the extra agro for the 5 piece set bonus. But as a rule I'm not having problems with agro. Especially with applying some tactics I read on this forum. Using Engage proactively instead of reactively is probably the biggest single help. I took it one step farther then the post I read in that I like to use it when I get a reactionary. I see Litany light up and I'll click 'Engage' then use Litany followed by the shield agro builders. This seems to work really well.
Personally I think using Engage without needing it, is stupid, because it is an emergency skill, not one to waste, but heck, w/e... but let me tell you, the extra aggro is damn nice on dmg race bosses...
What it seems you haven't added is the tactical mitigation and resistance you get from the extra vitality. It's not just the morale.....
I won't bother putting all the things you and the next poster said up. Hopefully people can remember them without my repeating the. I'll let this first one be my start point.
Yes, extra vitality brings more then moral to the table. But come on. +3 more Vit. Do you really want to nit pick to this point? I list it because yes, lain does have 3 more vit and any guard that sees it knows what that 3 vit is doing for them.
I'm ridiculed for making light of the value of 66 tactical mit when my guard, and I'm sure most guards have similar numbers, has 16k tactical mit not counting what he would get from guardians ward or raid buffs. Does anyone truly think changing tactical mit for 16000 to 16066 is saving the day? Yet at the same time I again am ridiculed for mentioning the 70 finesse even though I in the same breath say it is not much difference. Yet my finesse is in the 4k + range, 70 is a higher percent of 4k then 66 is of 16k.
The person that questioned what I said about having 800 more moral for 60% of the time was correct. With the set bonus when I use warriors fortitude I get 800+ more moral then without the set bonus but I should subtract the 500+ moral the other set has more of from this, so the net is for 40% of the time I have 500 less moral with dragon and 60% of the time I have 300 more moral.
I did say the + healing was nice, but alone it does not make enough difference to override the HUGE self heal. Which was the thrust of my OP. Without the set bonus that dragon has there would not be much argument. As little as the other differences are I'd still go for laingarth. But for me that huge self heal saves the day many a time that the lessor heal would not.
There seems to be people that recognize the value of the dragon set but only as a clickie. If this game had an 'in game' built in macro system I could use to make a clicky to change my armor I'd go that way I'm sure. Trying to click 5 pieces of armor on and off during a fight when I wanted to use warriors fortitude is just not something I'm doing and I don't like outside programs.
To the person that mentioned that he has tested agility on his burg and it does make a difference I say, compare your burgs tool tip info on agility to your guards tool tip info. You will see that yes, agility is listed with the attributes that MIGHT has for guard and that agility is tool tipped has 'Very important' for a burg while might is for guard and that it is listed as increasing melee offence and ranged offence while this is how might is tool tipped for guard and guard agility makes no mention of these things.
As for laingarth shoulders VS Huranc, I actually do carry both and sometimes wear one sometimes the other and I can't personally make up my mind which I like better. That is a HUGE piece of incoming healing and I probably wear them more then the other especially in raids. I put on all dragon to go out to the NPC to compare dragon to the ToO sets and while I was at it liked ToO shoulders compared to dragon and snagged them. If I'd left Huranc on for the comparison I'd probably not snagged them. I'll continue to wear Laingarth soloing and three mans but as I look at Huranc again the 2% incoming healing out weighs the block, might, vit, and armor of Laingarth. While the +to block is only .6% more block.
Going from 22% incoming healing to 24% is nice.
One more time, I love GP - and yes it has saved the day on occasion, and yes I've needed it when it was on CD. I'm sure with a long enough play cycle at some point (if I had GP on 3 min instead of 4 min) that would save the day. I guess that one time in a hundred I'll just die.I like the BIG heal and moral boost on Dragon, and the things laingarth brings to the table don't outweigh it is all I'm saying. This is for me. For some having GP up 8% of the time instead of 6% of the time outweighs having a big heal.
I probably should stop talking. Hec, I might convince myself I like GP on 3 min too.
OH, one more thing;
Originally Posted by Sir_Thorblod
Sorry, but I can't take anyone seriously who uses this as an argument... if you're not capped with Physical mitigation, you're not a Guardian... simple as that... 108 ICPR? Wow, that's gonna make a huuuuuuge difference... *rollseyes*
...
You need practice reading comprehension and or retention. My first post the Original one, I did dismiss the difference in mitigation's as unimportant as I and all guards I knew where capped on physical mit.
To quote myself,
Originally Posted by Gandie2
...As I see it ToO set has 362 more AC, but what is AC, mostly common mitigations which most of us have capped ...
LMAO,,, this is too much,
"you're not a Guardian... simple as that... 108 ICPR? Wow, that's gonna make a huuuuuuge difference... *rollseyes*"
In my OP I did not mention these things, My second post or the one you are picking at and rolling your eyes at was to answer the people that complained I did not or was not accounting for ALL the differences between the two sets. So I list ALL the difference even if I dismiss them as totally insignificant.
Having both sets of armor and doing t2 ToO, I can say, neither the BIG self heal nor the 3m pledge are really going to save you if things go sideways. I'm wearing the ToO set now and I really don't notice any more or less ability to survive in ToO. If you like the dragon set, its probably ok to wear in there as I did before getting my ToO pieces but again, neither bonus is the end all, be all.
Having both sets of armor and doing t2 ToO, I can say, neither the BIG self heal nor the 3m pledge are really going to save you if things go sideways. I'm wearing the ToO set now and I really don't notice any more or less ability to survive in ToO. If you like the dragon set, its probably ok to wear in there as I did before getting my ToO pieces but again, neither bonus is the end all, be all.
Agility still reduces miss chance. I have seen a post from a dev somewhere saying that it still does, even though the tooltip doesn't say so. Proof: My guardian with ~350 agility has 8-9% miss most of the time. My burglar with 2000+ agility has 0-1% miss most of the time. My guardian, before Orthanc came out with the new sets, with Draigoch set and below 200 agility had 9-10% miss.
yes, AGI does affect miss chance, regardless of tooltip.
Originally Posted by Gomar_Eldar
Of course, in short fights of 3-4 minutes, Pledge cd doesn't make much difference. But in longer fights it does. And to say that a "skill that lasts only 15 seconds and has long cooldown is not game changing"... Pledge is often the difference between wipe and success. And how much times have you been in situation like this? "Oh damn, I'm getting low on morale and my pledge is on cd. Deep Breath is on cd too. Oh no, I'm dead. And it's a wipe. If only I survived few more seconds until I had my pledge back up, we would have made it."
To answer your question: Never. If you're in a situation where you need pledge three times you're not likely to survive anyway. In ToO, pledge is often used in non-'oh poop' moments as a way to just mitigate some early damage or to generate some extra block responses or drop your static charge number down, etc. So, I agree that pledge isn't the 'end all, be all' skill that's a MUST have.
Originally Posted by Gomar_Eldar
Not having aggro problems where? And with how good dps people?
Let me tell you something. When Orthanc came out, I got 4 pieces of that set. Everyone had 2nd age weapons and I had no aggro problem. Then I went away from the game for something more than a month and when I came back, what I found was full raid team with 1st age weapons. Aggro problems started. When I got that 5th piece, aggro problems were gone.
As far as agro goes, yes in ToO, with the DPS races that are present, the more agro you can lump up the bettter and in fact, agro generation pretty much trumps all else in ToO.
To the person that mentioned that he has tested agility on his burg and it does make a difference I say, compare your burgs tool tip info on agility to your guards tool tip info. You will see that yes, agility is listed with the attributes that MIGHT has for guard and that agility is tool tipped has 'Very important' for a burg while might is for guard and that it is listed as increasing melee offence and ranged offence while this is how might is tool tipped for guard and guard agility makes no mention of these things.
Agility still reduces miss chance the same way it always did. It will be added back to the Agility tooltip in the next update.
There is a base 10% miss chance with 0 Agility.
There is a +3% additional miss chance fighting +1 or +2 level mobs
There is a +10% additional miss chance fighting +3 or +4 level mobs
after +4 levels it gets much worse.
In all T1 raids, T1 skirms, as well as Foundry T2 and Roots T2, I haven't noticed a difference in success rate between Dragon and Orthanc gear. That's not to say that mathematically, the gear is equal. When I go down, however, it's almost always because I did something very stupid, or because of a combination of extreme events, from which I could not have recovered no matter which armour I was wearing.
Haven't tried tanking ToO T2 yet, but from what I've seen playing other classes, the threat generation bonus from the Orthanc set would be more valuable than the mega-heal and perhaps even essential. Also, when tanking routine raids, I am noticing a difference in holding aggro now that more and more people in my kin have 1A weapons. I will continue to use the Orthanc set for that reason.
HOWEVER:
Losing the mega-heal from the Dragon armour set was a blow to my playing style, from which I still haven't recovered. I understand the value of GP, but I don't enjoy using it as much as WH. I'm also considering dropping WH Morale Increase as a legacy on my LI. Relative to the other available legacies, perhaps it's still OK; but in absolute terms, without the Dragon armour set bonus to stack on top of it, what good is the LI bonus?
The dragon set has 188 more Agility and 19 more might. But the dragon set has more parry, block and finess to counter this.
This is where I took issue with your post, OP. This phrasing is plainly misleading. Dragon set may have more raw parry and block, but net parry and block is higher for Laingarth.
It's nice having the extra heal and morale from WF, but we're talking about a skill that, at a minimum, is on a 3.5 minute cooldown with a 1.5 minute down time. Using the other Orthanc set to reduce the cooldown doesn't work that well, requires a block and a shield swipe to shave a whole five seconds off. Those numbers aren't game breaking.
That's really the only good reason to use the dragon set if you have the time and means to get the orthanc sets as well, and it isn't all that meaningful in the greater scheme of things.
However, if you want to use the dragon set to be different or some such, I won't put a gun to your head.. but I will think you're a fool.
...However, if you want to use the dragon set to be different or some such, I won't put a gun to your head.. but I will think you're a fool.
Honestly. Have you looked at the differences between the two sets? Honestly. Some of you have replied in such a way that strikes me as if I've challenged your belief in a cherished God, or institution like the Easter bunny.
All I've done is post the differences in the two sets in absolute terms. In the hard numbers and stated I see nothing in those hard numbers to make me feel the ToO set is so superior as to negate the heal bonus, which saved me yet again in lightning t2 third pull.
Only two things I've seen pointed out to me in this post that did not seem like emotional responses. The extra threat from the 5 set bonus and that 'Agility' does actually do something in the area of letting us hit more. (it is still possible to me that Gravis was confused, it is also possible that agility does do something) How much is the question. How much extra threat, and how much does agility affect our chance to hit.
The chance to hit could be figured out easy enough by someone with both sets. Stand at the dummy with one set on and strike it 100 times with guardians ward and note how many hits. Don't worry about, blocked, evaded, missed for what ever reason. Just count hits. Then put on the other set and do it again. If the difference is less then 5% I'll continue to dismiss it. If it is greater then 10% I'll have to give it some serious thought. I imagine there are some people that could devise a way to see how much extra agro the suit gives. Not sure if it would be worth the trouble.
However, if someone who has both suits is willing to do this test as well as post their numbers wearing one suit - moral, power, armor, physical and tactical mit on down the line, might block parry the whole nine yards if you are on my server, Brandywine, I'll send you 5 gold for your trouble. We will all see what the real facts are.
Like I said in my OP, maybe I'm crazy or maybe I'm missing something. But I go down the list and compare each stat, each category and I just don't see that big a difference.
How much extra threat, and how much does agility affect our chance to hit.
The bonus from 5 pcs OT set is 2400 threat (in terms of damage) over the 30 seconds. It's essentially a Threat DoT (ToT, if you will) of 80 threat/sec. Not game breaking by any means, but as they say, every bit helps. Source
Originally Posted by Graalx2
Agility still reduces miss chance the same way it always did. It will be added back to the Agility tooltip in the next update.
There is a base 10% miss chance with 0 Agility.
There is a +3% additional miss chance fighting +1 or +2 level mobs
There is a +10% additional miss chance fighting +3 or +4 level mobs
after +4 levels it gets much worse.
With adding some agility, you can eliminate up to 10% miss chance. Not sure where agility stops effecting miss chance, but iirc it's around 500.
OT set is superior to Draigoch set imo, but you can succeed with either. The -GP cd is mostly what does it for me. Having pledge on a 3 min cd is amazing. Having the lower cd for pledge will save your life from time to time, but it also allows for more reactives when you need them. The self heal from 5 pcs draig will almost never save your life (at least in T2 OT), but it is definitely useful as a clicky for the bonus morale.
Honestly. Have you looked at the differences between the two sets? Honestly. Some of you have replied in such a way that strikes me as if I've challenged your belief in a cherished God, or institution like the Easter bunny.
Yes, I've looked at all the end game armor very closely. Orthanc sets are statistically better. I've said this before and I don't feel like every other post someone should have to drag out the numbers just to convince you. You think you're being recusant because you've noticed some faulty trend, but you're really just failing to grasp what's been brought before you because you have some kind of silly bias and the need to be non-conformist or some such.. but don't delude yourself into thinking I care what decision you make. I don't really know you and I don't group with you, so if you want to use the lesser armor set, go right ahead.
Like I said in my OP, maybe I'm crazy or maybe I'm missing something. But I go down the list and compare each stat, each category and I just don't see that big a difference.
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Originally Posted by Gandie2
Black Guard - Evernight - Spunkie - R14 / Snoopie - R10 / Spunkiespider - R8
Eveningstar - Evernight - Boscgard / Boscbit / Shinon / Shinnok / Others
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