For a long time I want to ask and get advice about legacies what ı use on my spear, cause ı saw lots of warden on landroval, more more +morale legacies and lotts of them reach unbuffed, 17k, and one of these ı saw 20k :P, and I LLpost some screen from my weapon and stats:
these are my B/p/e withou determination stance, and still need shoulder, have no shoulder either dragoich or TOO,and I ll get full TOO ın 1 week, and plan to get brachlet from ROF..
I ll post my partial b/p/e without determination
and here is my weapons, and ı used legacies, partial pary legacies, (((will continue with other reply,cause dont let upload anıther picture)))
2x great tiver gem of hope: 292 crit deence
283 morale
263 power
2x calanerd setting of boldness +270 morale and + masterys
2x true rune of true tree
and alsoıt adds 1k morale, but not vitality, so it add no mıtıgation,not tactical mıtıgation any benefit of vitality, ı want to say that vitality give morale, and yeah more morale is nice, but if it given from vitality its more benefit cause of other thing vitality bonus,
so thats why I know(or am wrong, at least ı read forums and also they fix warden with add %6 partial bonus)) Partial /b/p/e really needed for warden and I add my warden s weapon 4 gem of them and also lose 1k morale and crit defence bonus,
I did WRONNG?? ıf yes I ll change them, now my morale at 15.589 also with other gears it will be 16k with unbuff,and ı need some virtues update, I ll wait ur advice,thanks
part of the reason that alot of wardens eventually tone down the vit and go directly to bpe and morale is because of the caps if you are a scroll user (and who of us isn't at least in raids) you only need ~9k unbuffed phy/tact mitigation to hit the cap. We can't see from your screen wether you have the cap or not but from your gear you should be well over. When you add in the standard warden buffs (determiniation, shield mastery, 6% for attacking, etc) we often get pretty close to capping bpe as well at which point upping raising that also becomes pointless so then you turn to other things power, icpr, morale and phy/tact mastery. The gear availble sometimes makes it difficult but its a balanceing act allowing us to do impossible things if done right and to die in the most horendeous ways imaginable if done slightly wrong.
I don't think 20k unbuffed is possible. I have seen 18.5k but that is even pushing it.
I am stacking morale and have almost hit 18k, with 360 more seals I will be about 18.3k If I can ever win the skraid ring and earring that will go up to the most I have seen 18.5k.
Having high b/p/e is great, but if you sacrefice 2% in each of those for more morale you can push past 17k.
I am now focusing on morale and incoming healing because I realized that after establishing aggro I can spam the heal line and conviction for 850hp/sec or the same as a mini spamming boulster on me full time. This helps the healers, and the max morale gives me room to not die when a spike of damage hits (back to back devs).
I still haven't heard a convincing answer on this one. Unbuffed my morale is 16.9K and my BPE is 25/20/20 without other buffs and keeping a good rotation of warden defensive buffs and HOT's up. This is unrealistic in a group setting because we need to maintain aggro too but I like to use it as a benchmark.
I feel I could stack morale and vit a lot higher, but would forgo incoming healing, partials and BPE. I've been playing with the Draigoch pocket, Earring of Defiant and Siegebreakers and so on but could trade these out for the Limlight tank three piece. I've messed with some numbers, because we're tanks, we all like higher morale. But it's just not worth it. I could get an extra 240 morale but given that block is so easy to cap my BPE would move to 25/19/19. In anything but a raid fight that 240 morale just doesn't seem worth it except to (let's be kind) give confidence to myself and the group. 17.1K looks a lot better than 16.9K :-)
I like the post above, I guess I could drop my base tactical resistance and still cap it with raid buffs, I will look at this.
My summary to the original question is that beyond a point (maybe 15-16K) then investing in morale hurts other things. I am ignoring the effect of finesse and assuming BPE more is better, I'm not sure how it works, I would like to see some science applied by one of you clever wards. An old argument for high morale was to defend vs crits but honestly this is just not a huge problem anymore unless you're very unlucky. For me, a balanced warden is what I aim for but I wish I knew more about finesse so I could be more certain about my choice.
I guess I could drop my base tactical resistance and still cap it with raid buffs, I will look at this.
I did this playing around with my virtues. I realized that running around with 50% mits on landscape was no different from running around with 48,5%. And what a waste of scrolls if you're already at the cap, better spent on morale or something else.
In my opinion, both are viable as long as you have a good incoming healing to go with them. My warden does not have any clasps or first ages and is sitting at 16.8k unbuffed, 22% incoming healing (as and elf) with 7k/5k/4k B/P/E (which totals out to around 65-68% total b/p/e with buffs running). If I get a clasp I will most likely drop a little more of my morale to buff my b/p/e up a bit. But really, either work. I have a 17.6k morale build that works just fine as well, it's really mostly preference as long as you have over 15k morale unbuffed
With ring of lasting victory from Hele giant, another FA with 3 crystals, and another clasp I could prob get 19k..
This is a recycled question..
Stack morale/vit, buff bpe with gambits and win.
Yupp, you were the 18.5k Warden I seen in Galtrev the other day that made me get up off my dead !@#% and focus more on morale. One day soon my alt warden will be the best MT of the Roots of Fangorn!
When all is said and done I really think either is viable..
Our morale wdns have tanked t2 orthanc.. Havent tried with more of a bpe build, but I imagine it could be done.
No reason imo to even talk about 3/6 man tanking.. They can all be done without a "tank" so it doesn't matter how you build your warden..
Dargnakh t2 done with champ, Foundry t2 done with 3cappy 2mini 1 hunt, RoF t2 champ tanked post update, etc etc..
For raiding I stack vit/morale and as much might as I can get, 1k atm. I wouldnt discredit bpe builds though I'm sure they are just as viable, guess its just a matter of preference..
In my opinion, both are viable as long as you have a good incoming healing to go with them. My warden does not have any clasps or first ages and is sitting at 16.8k unbuffed, 22% incoming healing (as and elf) with 7k/5k/4k B/P/E (which totals out to around 65-68% total b/p/e with buffs running). If I get a clasp I will most likely drop a little more of my morale to buff my b/p/e up a bit. But really, either work. I have a 17.6k morale build that works just fine as well, it's really mostly preference as long as you have over 15k morale unbuffed
~Rae
BPE doesn't sum up. It multiplies, AFAIK.
Let's say we fight a mob with no finesse. You will block (i'm making up numbers) 25% of the hits. From the hits you don't block, you will parry 20% of them: (100-25)%*(1-0.2)=60%. From the rest of the hits you will evade 20% of them: 60%*(1-0.2)=48%. Total amount of hits received: 100-25-15-12 = 48% (100*0.75*0.80*0.80) or total hits BPE'd 100%-48% = 52%.
Devs have confirmed on the forums that it's additive. There's a post somewhere where they explain it like rolling a die; 1-25 is blocked, 26-46 is parry, etc. If you don't BPE, then there's a separate roll for partial BPE, and THEN you get hit.
Devs have confirmed on the forums that it's additive. There's a post somewhere where they explain it like rolling a die; 1-25 is blocked, 26-46 is parry, etc. If you don't BPE, then there's a separate roll for partial BPE, and THEN you get hit.
I don't understand what you say. If you roll a dice and check by one filter, then roll a dice and check by another and then check by the last one, then it is still multiplicative, not aditive. In order to be aditive it has to be %avoids = %block+%parry+%evade. And then do only one check.
I don't understand what you say. If you roll a dice and check by one filter, then roll a dice and check by another and then check by the last one, then it is still multiplicative, not aditive. In order to be aditive it has to be %avoids = %block+%parry+%evade. And then do only one check.
Nevertheless the Devs have stated and quite plainly for once that it is additive. The options i can think is that 1. they were lying because they didn't want to go in to the complex world of statistical probability 2. It is not simply "a dice roll out of 100" at the very least the number used is much higher then that and given the normal output of a floating point random request probably not in whole numbers anyway. 3. he misunderstood the question/the question was poorly written and this "fact" is all a misunderstanding. 4. it is exactly like people on the forums insist and turbine should really look at improving the code for BPE because while additive dice rolls might work for d&d a computer can do better with less effort.
Before I get hate about the last two, work out the math on partials so that in a single roll having bpe at 70/65/53 does not mean that you mitigate all incoming hits. Add to that changing the combined roll if you cant block or are hit from behind means that you cannot just have one number in a variable you need all combinations or to rework the number for every status change. It quickly becomes clear that it would be much easier to create routines to roll seperately but tweek the numbers so that the correct "additive" effect is the result rather then actually use the stated numbers, additive math and roll like it was Pen and Paper.
And, as I add, I saw 1 warden reached Un-buffed 20k, at landroval, and dont want to say hıs char name, may he/she dont want, and cant see equip cause of ano. and I check from lotro.forum, gears, and try calculate,and realy cant reach 20k...But yes There is a Warden reached 20k at landroval, ı saw.
And, for 6-man yeah,capy or champ can do MT HM challange mode too, ROF or Foundry, and dont talk about 3-man:P, also I tank had to tank when our tank crash at the mıddle of last boss, as my trait was DPS, and quick swap my gear to Tank gear, and done well,and really a champ with glory spec,really glory. and for RAİDs; yes more İncomıng Heal realıng awesome, and if u have more health its awesome, BUT think about it Your Health 21k, and u get dmg 4k -5k and u cant b/p/e or partial b/p/e so ur health will help? healer will heal you all the time, LM try to power load to healer, and dont said when u go 21k ur b/p/e will go worse. but saw lots of warden just focus MORALE not VİTALİTY give morale, and so result? ####,wipe..And thats why I add b//p/e legacies instead of +morale to my weapon, cause İTs +morale, and when a boss hıt u, uLl lose it:P, if vitality its ok..
And, yes when u buffed yourself u go caps b/p/e but when u start as a warden realy u can start buff quick???? or u need do some agro build before it? so befor spam agro gambit, more b/p/e and partial b/p/e without buff,also when u get hıt, U ll get %6, U ll be ok, so u dont need spam buff quick,just STRONG agroo and some heal,then buff, and Maybe whıle wardens load morale 21k ,U will be 18-19 k its a bi issue? for raids
imo anything over 15.5k moral is just extra. You can get more but if your group and healer cant kill the boss and keep you up with raid buffs and 19000 moral they wont do it if you had 23000 moral either.
I dont have every piece of gear i want but have most of it. I have just over 16k moral unbuffed. And i kind of feel that is over kill. I can solo what everyone els here can solo iv tanked all of ToO and run draig with out a healer like im sure most of you do and have. My thing is about survivability not big numbers. I am considering swaping out a ring and ear ring for the Agi pieces from the river set. Will loose some 250ish vitality for agility. But the only thing i dont cap with just a couple gambits is evade and parry. Like other posters its around 60-65% for most of the fight. With another 250 agi ill get another 5% or so and still have 15k moral. I havent looked at the perfict agi items to go for yet as the river set ones are so easy to get and if they have + to parry or evade then it becomes a no brainer. ill keep the vit gear in my bag for high tac fights like sarumon. ...and as a side not fwiw ... ill not miss as easy when im trying to remove corruptions....that skill likes to miss.
As for finesse i say around 5k is solid. If your close to that i would not make any sacrifice for more.
When tanking i have no problem keepink shield tactics and mastery up along with dow and one other defence gambit and conviction. After the initial pull anyway. I like most of you start off with a few rapid eob's but if it maters i prep shields and maby even a dow just for kicks. With dow and conviction in my rotation threat is solid but to make me feel secure (any tank that looses threat on a boss fight half way thru should be ashamed) i toss out a eob every now and then. This keeps my mitigations way up, makes me really easy to heal, not boring to do and solid agro.
The only down side to making a bpe warden too bpe heavy is the fights it maters on the boss is not like a 75 boss more like a 78 and has a ton of finesse. My bpe can be around 65% but when im fighting a ToO boss it is only effectively 45ish...Dont run damage meters but thats what it feels like. So i think bpe for trash/world fun and vit for raid bosses.
Change your point of view and change the way you perceive everything.
Tactical Mitigation is easy to cap in raid situations (with virtues, food and scrolls) without needing shield tactics. I'd recomend you to try to do that, cause sparing one gambit (which means two masteries), even if it's every minute, is a nice thing.
b\p\e will average out the damage but high morale has always been the only counter to spike incoming damage. Sometimes you can not b\p\e\resist everything and 2 devs of 7k in a row would kill a 15.5k tank, but a 18+k health tank would have time for heals to land on him most likely saving the raid.
My build is fairly simple and works quite well for me. Stack vit\health, take b\p\e when it comes with it, use EoB x5-20 to get aggro, then alternate betwen EoB x4 macros and the full shield+spear line + conviction, and b\p\e gambits. My alt warden has now tanked all lvl 75 content but T2 ToO and after parsing with Combat Analysis, my self heals were > all incoming damage, and usually many times what any other healer healed me for. After the initial 30 seconds of establishing aggro, I only need a min to heal me when I take spike damage of 8-12k+.
Though last night there was a conspiracy to have a champ steal aggro, and all heals stop on me when the ToO shadow T1 boss was at 16k health. I was not aware of this and was stacking EoB to get aggro back from the non dumping champ, so I had few self heals up and died right as the boss did :/ We all had a good laugh, but I see it as them letting me not get too big of a head, as an alt and a warden, that should not be too hard to do.
FnF I tanked the boss that died last, and the fire grims as they spawned. I took 117k damage and healed myself for 159k, the next closest was a captain group healing me for 45k, the mini only healed me for 21k. I never went below 3/4 health. I never lost aggro and it was easy tank+spank.
healing yourself for all that much and not going below 3/4 would tell me that stacking morale is not required. By your anecdote you could have done the job with 8K morale
Couple that with Crit immunity (Wardens specced for tanking cannot get back to back crits) and I don't feel that morale cushion is required any longer. Not that the same extent that it was when RoI released.
Though last night there was a conspiracy to have a champ steal aggro, and all heals stop on me when the ToO shadow T1 boss was at 16k health. I was not aware of this and was stacking EoB to get aggro back from the non dumping champ, so I had few self heals up and died right as the boss did :/ We all had a good laugh, but I see it as them letting me not get too big of a head, as an alt and a warden, that should not be too hard to do
The good side of this is, of course, if you had known about their plan you could have fired off a few more EoBs to start and not only not lost aggro, but also had time to get more heals/defenses off and probably not died after all.
Originally Posted by Ravenstride
healing yourself for all that much and not going below 3/4 would tell me that stacking morale is not required. By your anecdote you could have done the job with 8K morale
Couple that with Crit immunity (Wardens specced for tanking cannot get back to back crits) and I don't feel that morale cushion is required any longer. Not that the same extent that it was when RoI released.
Definitely not to the extent that it was when RoI first came out, true. We still do need it for big T2 type damage, but at least we can DO T2 as opposed to when RoI was first released and we were made of paper.
b\p\e will average out the damage but high morale has always been the only counter to spike incoming damage. Sometimes you can not b\p\e\resist everything and 2 devs of 7k in a row would kill a 15.5k tank, but a 18+k health tank would have time for heals to land on him most likely saving the raid.
.
at 15.5 with raid buffs you would be well over 18k moral. Just the 10% cappy buff would put you at 17k and if you ate any food or a mini buff or a cappy drops the moral bannor and your there. Also it takes 3 seconds to do shield tactics. Yes tac mit is very very easy to cap in a lot of ways. I feel as easy as shield tactics is to keep up that gives me 1500 or so less tac mit to gear for and more room for extra bpe. Basically i try to cap as many things as i can as much as i can with enough moral to be easy to heal. My standard rotation when i can get all the gambits i want up has 5 defence buffs running 2 self heals and 2 threat leaches with dbfd and eob to add threat and make power not an issue. Gearing for or using legacies for power is an absolute waste imo. The healer is going to heal you weather you need it or not. So doing nothing but self heals is imo self distructive as your making yourself need more heals. Also your combat analysis is flawed as your conviction healing your entire group will throw your heals way off as most of that is over healing.
I keep up conviction dow 21212 what ever its called 3232 and most of the time 1212. Ontop of shield tactics if tac damage is relavent and shield mastery always. I use my masteries to kick out the shields and eob and dbfd which if done right mastery cooldown is not an issue.
Change your point of view and change the way you perceive everything.
I don't have numbers, but I'm pretty sure that it is beyond imposible to survive the Shadow boss with only self-heals, even in T1. This guy is giving you a -75% inc healing + no bpe debuff that you will get pretty often.
Current build unbuffed
Morale: 18.1k
b/p/e:16/15/13
incoming healing:21%
phys mits: 48.6
tact mit: 47.6
I'd suggest using either True setting of continuance or stability for both weps and True Gem of the King under the Mountain(sold in lotro store) but gives 25 Vitality +260 Block, Parry, and Evade.
Current build unbuffed
Morale: 18.1k
b/p/e:16/15/13
incoming healing:21%
phys mits: 48.6
tact mit: 47.6
I'd suggest using either True setting of continuance or stability for both weps and True Gem of the King under the Mountain(sold in lotro store) but gives 25 Vitality +260 Block, Parry, and Evade.
A: Be 100% reliant on healer for survival
B: Be moderately self sufficient and getting some heals here and there
A is like a pure dumb meat shield, basically you halve your duties. As a tank you dump all the survivability duty onto the healer and you're only responsible for aggro management. If tank dies its the healers fault.
The latter takes more skill and thought. As with anything when the difficulty goes up the benefits do as well, you have more to think about than just spamming threat skills but you relieve some of the pressure off the healer making the group sturdier.
Basically you're asking for that 1 build that is perfect for all fights, the answer is there is no such thing. I just mess around with jewellery and scrolls to alter my build based on the needs(high avoidance for kalbak vs high morale for acid wargs).
Go with the build that you can tank t2 orthanc with successfully.
b\p\e will average out the damage but high morale has always been the only counter to spike incoming damage. Sometimes you can not b\p\e\resist everything and 2 devs of 7k in a row would kill a 15.5k tank, but a 18+k health tank would have time for heals to land on him most likely saving the raid.
My build is fairly simple and works quite well for me. Stack vit\health, take b\p\e when it comes with it, use EoB x5-20 to get aggro, then alternate betwen EoB x4 macros and the full shield+spear line + conviction, and b\p\e gambits. My alt warden has now tanked all lvl 75 content but T2 ToO and after parsing with Combat Analysis, my self heals were > all incoming damage, and usually many times what any other healer healed me for. After the initial 30 seconds of establishing aggro, I only need a min to heal me when I take spike damage of 8-12k+.
Though last night there was a conspiracy to have a champ steal aggro, and all heals stop on me when the ToO shadow T1 boss was at 16k health. I was not aware of this and was stacking EoB to get aggro back from the non dumping champ, so I had few self heals up and died right as the boss did :/ We all had a good laugh, but I see it as them letting me not get too big of a head, as an alt and a warden, that should not be too hard to do.
FnF I tanked the boss that died last, and the fire grims as they spawned. I took 117k damage and healed myself for 159k, the next closest was a captain group healing me for 45k, the mini only healed me for 21k. I never went below 3/4 health. I never lost aggro and it was easy tank+spank.
T1 TOO bosses hit with a water gun, T2 ones are holding a giant cannon. The difference in the inc damage is very large(T2 bosses normal hits are 4-7k and there is no way in hell you can self heal through that but you can sure as hell avoid them) and as the inc dmg goes up so does the desire to kill the source of the dmg fast which means less time for heals/buffs. We used to roll with 3 healers on kalbak t2c when I solo tanked it with unbuffed 18.5k morale now with 16.5k but 75% bpe and 28% inc heal we need only 2, not to mention our melee now actually get to dps because of slow static tiering. Like I already said it's easy to become a meat shield and throw all the responsibility onto the healer but less returns.
I have a related question: How do people feel about increasing resistance? From the various screenshots I've seen, most seem to have resistances somewhere in the neighborhood of 8-9k. I've been playing a bit (haven't been on much) with virtues, and am currently running around with ~12-12.5k resistance rating.
So have others considered doing this/have you done so in the past but shied away from it because you didn't want to lose out on any might/vit bonuses from loyalty/discipline/other, or do you have other reasons why this isn't worth it?
I have a related question: How do people feel about increasing resistance? From the various screenshots I've seen, most seem to have resistances somewhere in the neighborhood of 8-9k. I've been playing a bit (haven't been on much) with virtues, and am currently running around with ~12-12.5k resistance rating.
So have others considered doing this/have you done so in the past but shied away from it because you didn't want to lose out on any might/vit bonuses from loyalty/discipline/other, or do you have other reasons why this isn't worth it?
At the start of ROI many people had high resistance because people used virtues like Honour and Innocence because it increases mit and also resistance. It was not possible then to get close to the cap of mits without using virtues. Now with gear alone u can get close to the cap of phys and tac mit so the question is it worth using resistance virtues over stat virtues like Determination for example. Resistance caps at 50% and only useful at high % in fights where there is allot of tactic damage or wounds. It is useful but should not be prioritized over virtues that increase your survivability in every type of fight. That being said if your stats are at average lvl there is nothing wrong with trying to cap resistance. I personally feel resistance is overrated.
I have a related question: How do people feel about increasing resistance? From the various screenshots I've seen, most seem to have resistances somewhere in the neighborhood of 8-9k. I've been playing a bit (haven't been on much) with virtues, and am currently running around with ~12-12.5k resistance rating.
So have others considered doing this/have you done so in the past but shied away from it because you didn't want to lose out on any might/vit bonuses from loyalty/discipline/other, or do you have other reasons why this isn't worth it?
Resistance gets reduced greatly by Fineness. With 75% bpe I get 30-50% depending on rng gods. With 30-40% resist Fineness will reduce it do 20 ish which is very low to be viable. Hence I only take resist when it comes free, I never build for it.
Resistance gets reduced greatly by Finesse. With 75% bpe I get 30-50% depending on rng gods. With 30-40% resist Finesse will reduce it do 20 ish which is very low to be viable. Hence I only take resist when it comes free, I never build for it.
Aha. Thanks. Does that also apply to t1 ToO (Since bosses have 'poor' finesse on t1 versus 'average' on t2)?
Resistance gets reduced greatly by Fineness. With 75% bpe I get 30-50% depending on rng gods. With 30-40% resist Fineness will reduce it do 20 ish which is very low to be viable. Hence I only take resist when it comes free, I never build for it.
I guess im somewhere in the middle on this. 20% is still better than 10%.
I build for mitigations and bpe mostly. Both of which handily come from our main stats. Resistances are Will based so we naturally have very little stat contribution to it.
I find that Virtues is a nice place to gain that little bit extra for resistances so with Innocence (which most tanks slot I'd imagine) and Discipline (Might, Resistance and Phys Mit so why not) I pick one Resistance primary virtue to round off my needs. I find Charity compliments nicely here with +big resistance +med Phys Mit and +small OOCPR. Zeal and Loyalty are my Vit / Morale contributors.
P.S I find any virtue with Tact Mitigation superfluous. For raid build I have enough Vitality that with Shield Tactics and Scrolls I'm way over cap. So much so that I will likely use a Phys carving and I took the Parry necklace as those come from Might which I naturally carry less of when tanking. Fidelity and Honour are big on a Raid leaders list of must slots but I think that applies more to non tanks (i.e. low Vitality build classes)
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