First off let me apologize if this topic is redundant. I've looked for information on building threat with a warden and well all I find is old info that refers to gambits that don't do the same thing now. So result is I'm breaking down and asking myself haha.
I'm looking for any advice from fellow wardens on how to build threat up and keep threat on mobs from my fellowship. 1v1 I've got but when it gets to multi mob pulls I don't have it down. My experience so far with tanking with the warden has been with an RK dpsing. When the RK is healing me and not dpsing I don't seem to have any problem just when he lays into the mobs.
Now before you answer you should know that the process of being a tank I know very well. I've played tank before I came to lotro and have been a guard for over a year here in lotro. The result is that I know what a tank is, what he is supposed to do, and what I need to do when. I'm just having a problem knowing what gambits to hit and how often I should hit those gambits to generate enough threat with the warden to keep the mobs off my fellowship.
Currently my warden is lvl 31 and I'm using War-cry to open up (building it in battle prep before start) and then using it and goad to build and maintain threat with an occasional Fierce resolve to help my moral stay up. Currently that is taking all my time up and I'm not getting to put any defensive buffs on me during the pull. I'm traited with 2y and 1b (the blue trait that increase # of targets that "goad" effects) I don't remember which yellows I'm using atm.
Hmm, generally tanking on a Warden before lvl 40 is rather hard as the good gambits are post lvl 40.
I think I would use War Cry once in a while and then use Precise Blow or Piercing Strike (Fist-Spear and Fist-Spear-Fist gambit) on the target on the Raid Assist Target. That should give you a bit of time for defensive gambits.
Low level tanking with a Warden is difficult. Just keep at it and things will get much easier tanking multiple mobs when you get Exhultation of Battle.
Assuming you're staying in Determination stance, and you're using primarily blue traits, as has been mentioned, you don't have a huge number of really good threat gambits yet.
You're on the right track using War Cry & Goad, for pulling, but you haven't mentioned using Maddening Strike (ShFiSh) which is a threat transfer skill. No, it's not a gigantic one, but it is still a transfer, and at low levels, transfers are one of the best things you have to try to keep aggro.
Pull as strongly as you can while others hold off a bit - maybe with a javelin skill, then that prepped War Cry when they get close, followed by a goad & another War Cry. Once the rest start DPSing, start tossing in a lot of Maddening Strikes to try to leech threat from your fellows, then keep using War Crys, & Fierce Resolve as needed.
IIRC, RK's can toss a Writ on Health on you anytime when in combat, so try to focus primarily on generating threat with Goad & WC (which has a heal included), and leeching it from the others with constant use of Maddening Strike.
If when a mob turns away from me, I will usually try pulling them back with javelins and or with a single target threat gambit (you should have 4 (FiSp, FiSpFi, SpFi, SpFi), but pulling back one is not as important as trying to stay in the threat lead on a bunch of others.
About 10 levels above you, my rotation with groups of mobs is to Battle Prep Shield Mastery (before 34, the next lowest B/P/E booster) since it has such a long counter, rush in with War Cry for initial group grab, double-fist builder for a quick Goad to maintain threat, then starting single-target threat gambits such as Precise Blow and Piercing Strike on whatever DPS is hitting. I also use Brink of Victory for either major threat build up on one target, or to leave on one target while I build threat on another, giving me extra threat on 2 targets; War Cry maintains everyone else with an occasional builder-Goad. As noted, the threat transfers are super useful, especially when you've just barely got threat and need to get it back.
By the time I go through that, I'm usually ready for Shield Mastery again, either through builders or the old fashioned way. If I have time I and especially if there are a lot of mobs, I'll also drop Fierce Resolve to maintain morale. If my health isn't an issue and I'm maintaining threat well, I may swap out to Recklessness to drop some bleeds (especially those from shield gambits) and Wall of Steel for damage and the reflect buff (the one before doesn't give the buff, but substitute with damage dealer of your choice).
Oh, also, I try to keep one of the sp-sh gambits in my Battle Memory for quick interrupts. Sometimes after I drop the first Goad.
Single target situations is roughly the same, but skipping War Cry and Goad and going straight to the single-target builders. Usually insta-threat for initial grab immediately followed by a ToT such as BoV.
All I really have to add is that when you get to 38, Wages of Fear can be a useful way of grabbing a mob that peeled off. The damage is often enough to get him back to you long enough to get threat back up.
Last edited by sudo_rm_onering; Jun 13 2012 at 05:59 AM.
Thanks for the replies so far some tips I'm definitely going to have to try .
However now I have one other question. LotRO-Chris mentioned using "madding strike" to transfer threat. I haven't been using that really in multi mob pulls as I've been unsure of how that works. Does it transfer threat from the other members of the fellowship on just one mob? or does it transfer threat from the other members on all the mobs?
Maddening strike transfers threat that your fellowshipmembers build to you. If you are in a full fellowship, five others beside you build threat. You can then transfer some of that build threat to yourself by executing maddening strike. This will place your threat ahead of the rest of your group (at least, that is the theory).
What I do is simple and effective. Prep an EoB before running into a fight, cluster the mobs and fire it off. I then use my macro with Goad, EoB, battle memory, fist+fist, EoB, Battle Memory. I use masteries to do these and can get of 5x EoB in 15 seconds, then another 4 every 12 seconds until I have good aggro.
Vs. 1 mob 1 EoB is roughly 14k in aggro, Vs. 4+ that grows up to 17k+ heals. If a boss is 150k I can do the initial 5, then another 4 EoBs and then self heal and never lose aggro. If the boss is 300k+ I throw in another 4-8 EoBs then self heal. My healing with self heal is somewhere around 850/sec which translates into quite a bit of aggro. Self heals are the entire shield+spear line, and prepping/using conviction at the end of the rotation.
If you have 1 target you need to pick out of a group then a few Goads should work well, just give them a few seconds.
Maddening strike transfers threat that your fellowshipmembers build to you. If you are in a full fellowship, five others beside you build threat. You can then transfer some of that build threat to yourself by executing maddening strike. This will place your threat ahead of the rest of your group (at least, that is the theory).
I think he understands this already, his question is:
Say we got a Warden tanking in a 6 man fellowship, we got 3 mobs, and the Warden does nothing except he uses Maddening strike 20 times on the first mob. Will the Warden build any aggro on the two other mobs?
Tbh I dont know.
Originally Posted by stratospaly
What I do is simple and effective. Prep an EoB before running into a fight, cluster the mobs and fire it off. I then use my macro with Goad, EoB, battle memory, fist+fist, EoB, Battle Memory. I use masteries to do these and can get of 5x EoB in 15 seconds, then another 4 every 12 seconds until I have good aggro.
Vs. 1 mob 1 EoB is roughly 14k in aggro, Vs. 4+ that grows up to 17k+ heals. If a boss is 150k I can do the initial 5, then another 4 EoBs and then self heal and never lose aggro. If the boss is 300k+ I throw in another 4-8 EoBs then self heal. My healing with self heal is somewhere around 850/sec which translates into quite a bit of aggro.
If you have 1 target you need to pick out of a group then a few Goads should work well, just give them a few seconds.
OP is lvl 31, Exultation of Battle is a lvl 60 skill.
Thanks for the replies so far some tips I'm definitely going to have to try .
However now I have one other question. LotRO-Chris mentioned using "madding strike" to transfer threat. I haven't been using that really in multi mob pulls as I've been unsure of how that works. Does it transfer threat from the other members of the fellowship on just one mob? or does it transfer threat from the other members on all the mobs?
Warden threat transfers will transfer an amount of threat from each member of the fellowship to you for every mob that are on their threat table, so as long as you also have a threat amount for those mobs (which you should if you are all in combat).
Curiously, the evolution of the internet seems inversely proportional to the evolution of man.
Thanks for the replies so far some tips I'm definitely going to have to try .
However now I have one other question. LotRO-Chris mentioned using "madding strike" to transfer threat. I haven't been using that really in multi mob pulls as I've been unsure of how that works. Does it transfer threat from the other members of the fellowship on just one mob? or does it transfer threat from the other members on all the mobs?
Originally Posted by danno8
Warden threat transfers will transfer an amount of threat from each member of the fellowship to you for every mob that are on their threat table, so as long as you also have a threat amount for those mobs (which you should if you are all in combat).
This. AFAIK, it transfers some amount of threat from the fellowship to you, and I believe this includes mobs you don't actually strike with the skill (at least I see no implication it applies this way). Additionally, I've pulled back some peel-offs by hitting another mob with Maddening Strike, but tbh with how many ToT I have going, it's really hard to tell if that's what did it or if the ToT's did it.
Good question though. Can anyone say for certain if this is how it works? That's the impression I've always worked under; that it transfers threat on everyone, period.
I have noticed when spamming threat transfer gambits on a single target that all the mobs will eventually be sucked in as long as the fellowship members are within the leech range. War cry is much less effective than it was before you left, but unfortunately you don't have alot of options yet. As has been stated, Maddening strike is very useful for regaining aggro from dps targets. Theoretically, it should also be a great tool for regaining aggro after death too, at that level. After just a few uses, you will decrease the fellowship's aggro and increase your own. Eventually you will be guaranteed to be on the top of the threat list.
Well sounds like I'm defiantly going to have to put Madding strike into my rotation there. Also from the way ya'll describe the way it works it may explain why I haven't had to much success with it as I've only been duoing since the changes. Let me throw this out there and see if what I understand about the way the skill works is anywhere close to right...
Lets say Madding strike transfers 1pt of threat from each member to the warden. That would mean in a duo the friends threat would be lowered by 1 and the wardens threat would be increased by 1. Hence giving the warden a total of 2 pts more threat then he had before on the mobs then his friend.
However if he is say in a 6 member fellowship then each members threat would be reduced by 1 pt and the wardens threat would be increased by 5(one pt for each member minus the warden). Hence giving the warden a total of 6 pts more threat then he had before on the mobs then his friends.
....Am I right?
(disclaimer : the 1pt transfer is used just to give the skill a number for the example. I certainly have no way of knowing the actual number)
Well sounds like I'm defiantly going to have to put Madding strike into my rotation there. Also from the way ya'll describe the way it works it may explain why I haven't had to much success with it as I've only been duoing since the changes. Let me throw this out there and see if what I understand about the way the skill works is anywhere close to right...
Lets say Madding strike transfers 1pt of threat from each member to the warden. That would mean in a duo the friends threat would be lowered by 1 and the wardens threat would be increased by 1. Hence giving the warden a total of 2 pts more threat then he had before on the mobs then his friend.
However if he is say in a 6 member fellowship then each members threat would be reduced by 1 pt and the wardens threat would be increased by 5(one pt for each member minus the warden). Hence giving the warden a total of 6 pts more threat then he had before on the mobs then his friends.
....Am I right?
(disclaimer : the 1pt transfer is used just to give the skill a number for the example. I certainly have no way of knowing the actual number)
Yup. It doesn't matter what you're actually targetting, you get threat on everything that's in combat with you, and it works best in 6-man content because there are more fellows to leech threat off of (I tend to get peels in 3-man until I remember to change up my threat rotation). It's funny to be in a multi-mob pull, see something peeling early to a healer or something, hit aggression and see the stray mobs turn right around and run back to me without my chasing them or even targeting them. Maddening strike isn't as strong a threat leech as aggression so it's not likely to be quite that dramatic but using threat leeches is a good habit to get into.
And yeah, pretty much just keep it up, in a few more levels you'll actually have a few real tanking tools under your best. Low level tanking on a warden sucks.
Well sounds like I'm defiantly going to have to put Madding strike into my rotation there. Also from the way ya'll describe the way it works it may explain why I haven't had to much success with it as I've only been duoing since the changes. Let me throw this out there and see if what I understand about the way the skill works is anywhere close to right...
Lets say Madding strike transfers 1pt of threat from each member to the warden. That would mean in a duo the friends threat would be lowered by 1 and the wardens threat would be increased by 1. Hence giving the warden a total of 2 pts more threat then he had before on the mobs then his friend.
However if he is say in a 6 member fellowship then each members threat would be reduced by 1 pt and the wardens threat would be increased by 5(one pt for each member minus the warden). Hence giving the warden a total of 6 pts more threat then he had before on the mobs then his friends.
....Am I right?
(disclaimer : the 1pt transfer is used just to give the skill a number for the example. I certainly have no way of knowing the actual number)
Yep, that's correct.
You'll get bigger leeches like Dance of War at 42, & Conviction at 54, etc.
Even though Maddening Strike is a small threat leech, that's what you've got at 31, and as Hethyba notes, it's good to get into the habit of using leeches early anyway, just like getting in the habit of using healing/defensive buffs.
Yes, that's basically how it works, although, I thought I read somewhere that it was a % leech, instead of a finite amount. If so, you will leech more threat from fellowship members that have more total threat. For example:
(assuming 10% leech, all other threat effects excluded - Numbers are made up imaginary values to denote threat levels)
That's roughly my understanding; it becomes more effective the bigger the group in other words, especially if you have more than one member with borderline threat (mini, DPS, etc). Duoing I seem to have better luck with Precise Blow and Piercing Strike for quick-grabs, and use MS more for maintaining threat when it's borderline. Depending on what we're fighting and who we've got, I always keep either Dance of War, or a Sp-Sh combo in Battle Memory for interrupts, but you won't need to worry about managing BM and Potency until 40, I think.
If you're short on people in a small group, remember to stance dance if you can. Those bleeds from the shield line in Recklesness can put out some pretty prodigious numbers (comparatively speaking), and with only a few people it can really help, especially without a dedicated DPS. Then hop back into Det to maintain threat and buffs.
Yes, that's basically how it works, although, I thought I read somewhere that it was a % leech, instead of a finite amount. If so, you will leech more threat from fellowship members that have more total threat. For example:
(assuming 10% leech, all other threat effects excluded - Numbers are made up imaginary values to denote threat levels)
EDIT: It looks nicer in the editor, but it took out my spaces :P
All our leeches are a finite amount. They are unfortunately not % based. It would be too awesome given the spammable nature of the gambit system (even if people in your group had 1 million threat each and you had 0, after 2-3 leeches @10% you would again have the threat lead). This also means that after death the leeches are not so great, since the amount they do transfer is very small overall after several minutes of fighting.
In the end leeches are just another tool in the toolbox.
Curiously, the evolution of the internet seems inversely proportional to the evolution of man.
Thanks a ton guys !! this has helped my tanking soooo!!!! much !!!! Once I manage to fine tune my rotations so to speak I shouldn't have any problems. Again THANKS!!!!!
(disclaimer : the 1pt transfer is used just to give the skill a number for the example. I certainly have no way of knowing the actual number)
you do have a way of knowing!
the different aggro descriptions are "slightly increased threat", "moderately increased threat", "increased threat", and "greatly increased threat". these skills generate 0.5T, 1T, 2T, and 4T threat respectively. The value "T" stands for the amount of threat your warden generates via the damage of an auto-attack (also remember that these skills generate additional threat in the form of raw damage or heals, sometimes both as in the case of the exultation of battle). Since maddening strike says "slight amount" of threat transfer, it subtracts 0.5T threat from each fellow member and gives it to you. Assuming 5 fellows, you gain 2.5T threat for each mob you are in combat with. Additionally, all other fellows lose 0.5T threat.
because of the way wardens generate threat, as opposed to guards, who's skills generate flat amounts of threat per level, a warden's threat generation is directly tied to the amount of dps he can dish out. So to generate more threat, try to find a weapon with amazing dps, and get some more physical mastery, if you can do it without compromising your survivability.
EDIT: forgot to mention how Threat Over Time (TOT) skills work. any skill that generates TOT puts an invisible debuff (you can't see an icon for it) on the mob. This lasts for 16 seconds and pulses every 4 seconds. All TOTs stack with other TOTs and with themselves. As an example, I will use precise blow. In addition to the the threat from the damage and the artificially generated 2T upfront damage, the skill will put up a "slightly increased threat over time" which for 16 seconds will generate 0.5T threat every 4 seconds.
Last edited by wiles.zack; Jun 14 2012 at 09:38 PM.
It's not only that I should succeed, others's (monster players) should suffer.
Can anyone say for certain if this is how it works? That's the impression I've always worked under; that it transfers threat on everyone, period.
It definitely does, in fact this is the reason Aggression was nerfed. When we first got Aggression, it became the end-all threat gambit. You would start a fight, maybe hit War Cry or EoB or PB once to get started and then just spam Aggression to keep everything locked down.
This made stuff like the Orthanc Acid boss trivial - when the adds come, you didn't have to move, just have a champ in the same group AoE the adds and you could Aggression them off of him. Took a couple of seconds to get everything on you without moving from your position next to the boss.
Now Aggression is a much smaller transfer than it was, but in general the transfer mechanic still works the same way - anything in combat with anyone in your fellowship is affected. The threat table for the OTHER fellowship (in raid situations) is not affected.
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some tips I'm definitely going to have to try 
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Originally Posted by Shariva
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Re: Looking for some threat building advice.
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