Thread: No instance cluster? So what?

There seems to be a forum mod kicking around, but somehow he always seems to miss the threads enquiring about refunds where Turbine mislead people into buying. Funny that. You'd think they would want to help out their customers, what with it being their mistake and all that.
Once they get your money, you ain't getting it back, at least not directly. There are other ways...

Originally Posted by frayedknot

And now Turbine is refusing to grant a refund and is blaming me for applying the key, even though they are the ones who left incorrect information on the FAQ for two entire days.

According to the Turbine store help pages, "The Turbine store by Digital River offers a 30-day money back guarantee."
http://store.turbine.com/store?Actio...SiteID=turbine

Originally Posted by StavroMuellerBeta

According to the Turbine store help pages, "The Turbine store by Digital River offers a 30-day money back guarantee."
http://store.turbine.com/store?Actio...SiteID=turbine

I have contacted Turbine about this, and their response is still that since I applied the key to my account, my refund options have been voided.

You have a few options.

1. Open a complaint with the BBB
2. Request a chargeback on your credit card if that's how you paid.
3. If you paid by Paypal open a dispute saying the product you paid for is not as described.
4. And I suggest you do this anyway. Email massively.com and tell them what has happened.

Turbine were forced to give refunds to people over RoI despite claiming they wouldn't. This is no different, infact it is even more cut and dried.

Turbine saying you cannot obtain a refund because you used the key is complete rubbish. You were sold a product under false pretenses, the fact that you didn't learn about it until after you applied the key isn't your problem.

Originally Posted by monteeburns

Turbine saying you cannot obtain a refund because you used the key is complete rubbish. You were sold a product under false pretenses, the fact that you didn't learn about it until after you applied the key isn't your problem.

Note that if you do get a refund, or you cancel credit card charge, but your account is still left credited with the expansion then it might be considered fraud if you want ahead to played the expansion anyway. That is, if you get a refund this would imply that you're not going to play any of the new stuff.

This is not a snag with just Turbine but many companies really don't have easy ways to undo a digital purchase or prevent a key from being applied or revoking keys (though they can sometimes do it manually which is what they all try to avoid).

Originally Posted by Lohi

Note that if you do get a refund, or you cancel credit card charge, but your account is still left credited with the expansion then it might be considered fraud if you want ahead to played the expansion anyway. That is, if you get a refund this would imply that you're not going to play any of the new stuff.

This is not a snag with just Turbine but many companies really don't have easy ways to undo a digital purchase or prevent a key from being applied or revoking keys (though they can sometimes do it manually which is what they all try to avoid).

Not true. I know people who got refunds for RoI and the content was revoked.
I'm sure they try to avoid doing it manually, but that is their tough luck. It was their mistake, they have to do the work to correct it. The onus is on them to make it right, not the customer. I think if Turbine tried to take anyone to court for fraud, it would backfire on them extremely badly when it turned out they had sold it under misinformation, then couldn't be bothered to actually revoke the content. Let's be honest, that is never going to happen, it would be a mammoth PR disaster, even by Turbine's low standards.

It's a disgrace that Turbine even make people chase refunds through other channels instead of doing the decent thing. If they've screwed the wrong person among the many, they could find themselves in a whole heap of trouble over this. As usual Turbine assume everyone is just going to give up, or walk away. That might not turn out to be the case.

Originally Posted by Giliodor

So, we dont get shiny instances with RoR expansion, who cares? Level your alts, gear them up with new crafting tier, explore the content, get kindred with the Rohirrim.

See I did that after Rise of Isengard. Before Isengard I had 2 level capped characters. Now I have 8 level capped characters. As a result it only takes me about a week and a half to get to level cap, if I'm being slow about it.

It will take me maybe 4 weeks if I spread out all my characters to get to cap on them all.

Then what? Dailies? They're okay on one character. They're meh on the second character.

On the 8th character I'm so bored I'm in tears.

So what am I supposed to do? Grind all those virtues I've been too lazy to grind? Yes, killing 5000 worms is so much fun.

Fishing? I don't even have the hobby on 5 of my characters! It's boring.

I'm a raider. I love my kin. We raid every night and we have insane amounts of fun.

But we have done every skirmish together till we're bored of them. There is only so many times you can kill yourself in dannenglor or pop FMs in rift till it gets boring. Not only that they are sooo easy. I can't count the times we've done it undermanned half asleep.

Right now, all the previous end game raids, while fun, aren't any challenge at all either. There is only one place I can think of that is any kind of challenge, and that's Gortheron T2 Challenge, and I have no idea how you guys completed this beast at 65, but grats man that is one heck of a fight!


I think part of the problem with raiding right now is that you have raid skirmishes in tiers 1, 2 and 3, draigoch T2C (i don't think I've ever seen anyone not do draigoch T2C), Orthanc tier 1, 2 and challenge. Compared to Orthanc T2C, NOTHING compares in difficulty. Just the jump from Tier 1 to Tier 2 requires insane amounts of skill. There's just no place to learn how to play like you need to play in Tier 2 without actually doing Tier 2. So everyone new gets discouraged because it's just so hard, and Turbine sees that there isn't an interest to complete insane content that they created so they don't think it's worth it to make a raid.

Well, most of my kin pays VIP. At least 10 I know of, probably more, every time they get a new first age, go to the store and buy most of what they need there. Relic removal scrolls, legacies if they can't find it in their vaults, relics, now crystals. 30 bucks spent on a single LI.

Few have preordered Rohan, and the few that did did it while they still said it included instances.






My kinship raids. Our existence is threatened. I'm afraid I'll lose my friends, my family. "No instance cluster? So what?" My family is threatened, so what? So everything.

Originally Posted by frayedknot

I have contacted Turbine about this, and their response is still that since I applied the key to my account, my refund options have been voided.

This is completely bogus. It seems like Turbine wants to say on their store "hey - try it out - there is a 30 day money back guarantee", But then they don't want to honor this - meaning this is a lie about the guarantee.

A "30-day money back guarantee" means you are guaranteed to get your money back, whatever the reason you ask for it back. It is a guarantee. This is used in the US by companies to mean: "A money-back guarantee is essentially a simple guarantee that, if a buyer is not satisfied with a product or service, a refund will be made." (Wikipedia).

How can you put this on your online store, and then not honor it? Amazing. Their Modus operandi seems to be hope that people will not notice it when they do not follow the rules. You have to care about your customers; you can't put one sale over their satisfaction. That's how you get an awful reputation. Hoping that players will give up and not know their basic consumer rights - sure you will save a few orders - but that is pretty bad as a practice.

Originally Posted by monteeburns

You have a few options.

1. Open a complaint with the BBB
2. ...

I would also contact Digital River. I am sure they would love to know that a company they are providing a store for is saying there is a "30 day money back guarantee" right on their store page, but does not honor this in fact.

Indeed. I work for a software company that uses Digital River as a payment provider. What happens when someone requests a refund via Digital River is that DR will email the vendor saying a refund has been requested, then the vendor has 48 hours to reply either accepting or denying the refund ( if so, stating the reason ). This nonsense about no refunds after a code has been applied is absolute rubbish, it has no effect on whether a refund is given by Digital River. That's Turbine mumbo jumbo just to try and put people off following things through. We also offer a 30 day money back guarantee, and prefer anyone wanting a refund to come directly to us, but some customers choose to go straight to DR, and some bypass both DR and us and go straight to a chargeback via their credit card, which is almost always successful provided it is done within a reasonable timeframe ( We sometimes get successful chargebacks even after several months )
An email straight to DR is a very wise suggestion, stating that the product has been sold under false advertisting. If Turbine try to refuse the refund, the evidence is here for everyone to see, and also screenshotted on other sites.

*Cough* Correct me but this game is about adventuring in Tolkiens' make believe universe of Middle-Earth. If there is no instance cluster included, THAT IS FINE. I personally couldn't care less, why? Because for me raiding and gear is redundant for me. Sure once I hit cap I'm cool with it, but unlike some pro-players I don't rush through nicely made and polished content in a matters of days and then troll the forums with hate about how Turbine aren't spewing out enough content.

By the time I hit the cap, the cluster will be out, as a casual player who likes to take his time. It's a fair assumption to make that the majority of players are casual nowadays and don't use the forums, so I'm going to make another assumption that the majority of the playerbase couldn't care less about whether it's included or not, or whether they have to pay extra.

Why? Simple logic, all humans want the newest thing and regardless of time, they will get it. Case in point? My iPhone is a 4, this year it's likely that Apple will release the 5.. I am going to upgrade to the 4S, why? Because it's newer and I want it.

I want the RoR expansion, Instance cluster or not. It's ludicrous to even speculate that the Instance cluster will COST anything for VIP subscribers or Founders/Lifers. Why? Sapience has stated that they will be included IN a FUTURE UPDATE. To me, that means as part of the update, not an addition to the store. I know Turbine have lost a lot of dignity with players but to go as far to say that they wouldn't include it with a free update for VIP players is ludicrous speculation. As far as you or me know, it will be free.

-Tails-

Originally Posted by Tailborn

If there is no instance cluster included, THAT IS FINE. I personally couldn't care less, why? Because for me raiding and gear is redundant for me.

This is a really narrow-minded point of view. Firstly because we should ALL be encouraging Turbine to include features appealing to as wide a range of players as possible. Secondly because if they get away with charging separately for instances, what makes you think they wouldn't do the same for other features? After all, *everything* except landscape questing in LOTRO is a minority pursuit - crafting, housing, PvMP, festivals. Maybe Turbine should charge separately for those? No? Why not?

Originally Posted by Tailborn

Sure once I hit cap I'm cool with it, but unlike some pro-players I don't rush through nicely made and polished content in a matters of days and then troll the forums with hate about how Turbine aren't spewing out enough content.

Tedious straw-man snideness which undermines your post.

Originally Posted by Tailborn

It's ludicrous to even speculate that the Instance cluster will COST anything for VIP subscribers or Founders/Lifers. Why? Sapience has stated that they will be included IN a FUTURE UPDATE. To me, that means as part of the update, not an addition to the store. I know Turbine have lost a lot of dignity with players but to go as far to say that they wouldn't include it with a free update for VIP players is ludicrous speculation. As far as you or me know, it will be free.

I hope you are right. However, if the point is this obvious then why has no-one from Turbine come on the forums to say so in the week since the FAQ debacle? And note that Celestrata used the subtly different term "major update" in a post yesterday which conspicuously did not confirm that the instances would be free to VIPs, saying only that "pricing is still being discussed".

Originally Posted by Tailborn

*Cough* Correct me but this game is about adventuring in Tolkiens' make believe universe of Middle-Earth. If there is no instance cluster included, THAT IS FINE. I personally couldn't care less, why? Because for me raiding and gear is redundant for me. Sure once I hit cap I'm cool with it, but unlike some pro-players I don't rush through nicely made and polished content in a matters of days and then troll the forums with hate about how Turbine aren't spewing out enough content.

By the time I hit the cap, the cluster will be out, as a casual player who likes to take his time. It's a fair assumption to make that the majority of players are casual nowadays and don't use the forums, so I'm going to make another assumption that the majority of the playerbase couldn't care less about whether it's included or not, or whether they have to pay extra.

Why? Simple logic, all humans want the newest thing and regardless of time, they will get it. Case in point? My iPhone is a 4, this year it's likely that Apple will release the 5.. I am going to upgrade to the 4S, why? Because it's newer and I want it.

I want the RoR expansion, Instance cluster or not. It's ludicrous to even speculate that the Instance cluster will COST anything for VIP subscribers or Founders/Lifers. Why? Sapience has stated that they will be included IN a FUTURE UPDATE. To me, that means as part of the update, not an addition to the store. I know Turbine have lost a lot of dignity with players but to go as far to say that they wouldn't include it with a free update for VIP players is ludicrous speculation. As far as you or me know, it will be free.

-Tails-

Thats a lot of assumptions you are making But anyway, good for you that you are happy about ROR, I think that is great. I feel very sorry for those that bought the expansion while the FAQ was up that said the instance cluster was include and are now having a hard time getting a refund, that is pretty much a bottom feeder company tactic. If they persist they will get thier money back though...keep at it guys!

I am thinking of not buying ROR at all and only getting the instance cluster, that might turn out the best option for me. ( I am premuim, but have a good amount of TP just sitting there). So have fun and I hope you at least support those that bought it with incorrect info should get thier money refunded.

Darn it I need to change the battery in my keyboard, well at least I am not in a raid (da red light is blinkin)

edit: fixed the tough to though, It was the weak battery, thats my story and I am sticking with it. Any other errors that I missed are the battery's fault too

Narrow-minded? Regardless of what you think, it is my POV and I am entitled to that, I shouldn't expected to receive criticism for my views on something. I am looking forward to RoR and am sick of the constant whining and incessant ramblings.

I am simply making assumptions, pretty much what everyone else on this forum is doing. However mine are tad more optimistic :P

@SalionOfBrothers - Thankyou!

-Tails-

Originally Posted by Tailborn

Narrow-minded? Regardless of what you think, it is my POV and I am entitled to that,

Just like the folks that expect Instances are entitled to their opinions?

Originally Posted by Tailborn

I shouldn't expected to receive criticism for my views on something.

Neither should they.

Originally Posted by Tailborn

I am looking forward to RoR and am sick of the constant whining and incessant ramblings.

Isn't it just as possible that folks who are disappointed with Rohan are sick and tired of the folks telling them everything is fine?

Originally Posted by Tailborn

I am simply making assumptions, pretty much what everyone else on this forum is doing. However mine are tad more optimistic :P


-Tails-

You say optimistic, others may say naive. Clearly there are a LOT of unhappy folks right now that play LOTRO. You simply telling them to stop it doesn't help or solve any of their issues...

Originally Posted by Tailborn

Narrow-minded? Regardless of what you think, it is my POV and I am entitled to that, I shouldn't expected to receive criticism for my views on something. I am looking forward to RoR and am sick of the constant whining and incessant ramblings.

I am simply making assumptions, pretty much what everyone else on this forum is doing. However mine are tad more optimistic :P

@SalionOfBrothers - Thankyou!

-Tails-

And what if RoR didn't include quests instead? You like questing, I like instances. I've done at least once every quest in every area up to RoI, took me 2 months to go from 65 to 75 but still if I have instances available I don't care about quests. Would that be ok with you then? I there were no quests in RoR?

They're asking us 40-70$ for an expansion that doesn't include any instances that's the contend that I and many others are most looking for. Because that's what we like doing.
If it's fine with you ok, buy it and stop whining because we complain, we have the right to and we are not going to stop because of you. Ignore us, who cares of our many POVs, it's easy.

Originally Posted by Tailborn

Narrow-minded? Regardless of what you think, it is my POV and I am entitled to that, I shouldn't expected to receive criticism for my views on something.

If you do so in the manner you just did (snide, rude, and condescending), then yeah you should. Yes people are entitled to their own opinions and to have their opinions respected. But once you start disrespecting others and painting them in a negative light for the things they like or their playstyle, it's unreasonable to be surprised when they respond in an upset manner.

I am looking forward to RoR and am sick of the constant whining and incessant ramblings.

Easy fix: stop visiting threads that obviously contain a viewpoint you no longer wish to encounter. Ignorance is bliss and all.

I hardly think I'm being rude, of all things. I'm certainly not trying to put across the idea that your opinion is any less valid than my own.
Here's a little point: If you post things on a public forum, you should be open to criticism and opinionated posts. (I have no qualm with opinions on a forum, just so that is clear) I am interested as to why people seem to be claiming such ludicrous 'facts' as 'Clearly there are a LOT of unhappy folks right now that play LOTRO'. I might also point out that the forums are in no way indicitive of this, of course I'm not trying to say that everyone loves it, but the word 'lots' is subjective, therefore you can only speak for yourself. Not for others.

I understand that Turbine has royally screwed up and I'm not condoning that. What really doesn't make sense to me is how making over 100+ threads on the same topics is getting you anywhere. In fact, this entire subforum is filled with nothing but raw speculation, assumptions made because of Turbine's actions or lack of therein (Withholding information) Yes, the arguments about RoR pricing and value/worth ring true, and I have withheld pre-purchasing like many, against my better judgement. But for the most part discussing things such as the Instance Cluster is fruitless as Turbine aren't going to release information on a whim, they no doubt have a schedule that Management will stick to regardless of how many customers are enraged.

My whole issue with threads like this is that there's a whole lot of facts/opinions being thrown around without any real base, it's certainly interesting to speculate, but that is all this is: Speculation. All we know is that the IC will be released after RoR as part of a 'Major' update, no more details have been released as of yet so getting up in arms about having to pay an extra charge without knowing anything more is a tad ridiculous.

In regards to Lapislazzuli comment, I can only say that Questing is part and parcel of MMO's. However there are MMO's that have no instances, or no Endgame at all (Although these may be grindy Korean MMO's) Of course if Turbine did release without any quests I would be bothered, but again making countless threads on the one subject IS NOT going to make any ground.

I value your opinions, I am in no way trying to undermine them with my own. Everyone's opinion is as valid as anothers.

-Tails-

Originally Posted by Tailborn

Narrow-minded? Regardless of what you think, it is my POV and I am entitled to that, I shouldn't expected to receive criticism for my views on something.

Originally Posted by Tailborn

Here's a little point: If you post things on a public forum, you should be open to criticism and opinionated posts.

I'm actually kind of impressed.

Originally Posted by Lestache

I'm actually kind of impressed.

I was going to get into it, and then saw you addressed all the nonsense with 5 words much more eloquently than what I would have said....

+1

Roffle...
You can't make that stuff up. Reminds me of Chapelle's Rick James bit.

I don't buy the "fraud" argument. Anyone who wants a refund is obviously fine with the content being removed. If Turbine doesn't remove it from their account, how is that the buyer's problem?

There's obviously ways to do this. If there isn't that's pretty ridiculous. I'm sure they can have someone manually go into my account and revoke access and take all of the items out of my bags. I really don't care and I would have no right to complain about it if it was done. I'd even be fine if it meant they needed to lock my account for a few days while they do it.

Hell, when I asked for my refund I told them that they should remove all of the content from my characters -- I figured it was obvious. They won't do it and they won't refund the money.

I'm not going to worry about that aspect of that. Turbine's obviously not worried about charging people for something they improperly explained. I think anyone trying to get a refund who winds up keeping the content somehow would be seen as acting in "good faith" if it ever went beyond that. Turbine has no winning angle there.

Originally Posted by Tailborn

In regards to Lapislazzuli comment, I can only say that Questing is part and parcel of MMO's. However there are MMO's that have no instances, or no Endgame at all (Although these may be grindy Korean MMO's) Of course if Turbine did release without any quests I would be bothered, but again making countless threads on the one subject IS NOT going to make any ground.

I value your opinions, I am in no way trying to undermine them with my own. Everyone's opinion is as valid as anothers.

-Tails-

I've played several of the games you're talking about and I can confirm you that one didn't have any instances. But to tell the truth it had a quest every 5 levels as well and you needed months to go from 30 to 50. It used to have a nice RvR system tho. The kind of game you play just because it's free and you can't afford a sub.

Fact is LOTRO is a MMO and instances are its multiplayer aspect. Single player games are way more fun when it comes to questing IMHO, I'd never play LOTRO if there were only quests, instances are what I value the most. I understand that you like other things and you have a different POV but I am really disappointed and there's not much I can do other than post in the forums and let turbine know how much I am disappointed. May be useless or may be not, I don't think anything will change for RoR but, perhaps, after RoI complaints and RoR complaints they will schedule an instance cluster to launch with Minas Tirith or whatever it'll be the next expansion. I don't think complaining is useless, otherwise I wouldn't bother writing here.
On the other hand, complaining about people complaining, that is more likely to start a flame rather than stop angry people from complaining even more about people complaining because they are complaining :P

Tails, I think you're getting the reaction you're getting because of the use of words/phrases like ludicrous (multiple times), incessant, "pro-players", trolling the forums, spewing... I know I'm cherry picking but these sorts of words are incendiary and tend to make people get their hackles up.

I agree, there's a lot of speculation going on and it's not all entirely helpful. But given how badly Turbine's messed up, until they start talking plainly and openly, it's going to continue. For your own personal sanity, I'd recommend staying out of those types of threads. It's what I do when a certain viewpoint drives me crazy. ^^

The reason Tailborn got this reaction is that s/he posted 4 borderline uppity paragraphs without understanding the actual problems. Anyway, carry on.

It seems to me that most people are glossing over something significant.

I interpret "instance cluster" to mean "repeatable content". Usually this form of repeatable content is combat based, and broadly speaking set for either small group (3), full group (6) or Raid (6+) or a combination of the 3, with multiple difficulty levels and various challenge modes. So generally speaking, as a casual player who is solo focused, the instance clusters are not a good investment for me.

One thing (and this is the part that is being glossed) is what Sapience has said: "... we are not including a new instance cluster in ROR, the expansion will ship with an entirely new type of repeatable high level content...". So they are trading one type of high level repeatable content (IC) for a different type of high level repeatable content (big unknown on what).

If "scales" better for both the solo centric players like myself as well as the group centric players that are drawn to IC type events and offers a comparable rewards, then I for one don't see what the issue is that the instance clusters aren't included. In fact if it is both of those, I see it as a better investment for my dollars or points than an IC is. It might be content I'll actually use and have fun with unlike the clusters.

For those that are truly focused on having the instance clusters, it has been stated that they will be included as part of the regular update cycle. It might be narrow minded, but let the those that want that feature, pay for that feature. I think it's a good thing that they are trying to create new content sets and systems to include in the expansions instead to try and appeal to a wider range of players. Will it work out? Time will tell.

Yes, I know it's the "let's wait and see thing" that makes a lot of folk skittish right now (myself included to some degree). This new repeatable high level content may actually be great for everyone. I could just as easily be a pig in a poke and smell just as pretty for a lot of people. I just can't see the need to pull out the pitchforks and torches until we have some more information to go on.

Anyways, that's just my 2 electrons worth.

oh, and

Originally Posted by Cuurth_pTeele2

My kinship raids. Our existence is threatened. I'm afraid I'll lose my friends, my family. "No instance cluster? So what?" My family is threatened, so what? So everything.

If at the end of the day, you stop being friends with someone because you no longer engage in 1 specific activity, then they are not your friends, or your family, rather they are just people you hang out with for a while. The bonds of friendship and family are stronger than that.

This is not to belittle your actual concern that the preferred activity you have chosen to do for fun, along with many people you know and hang out with and whose company you like, is not in danger. That is a very real thing and one I know you'd like to avoid But to say that your friendships, your family ties, you actual way of life is threatened, is (in my own opinion) just a tad over dramatic.

Originally Posted by Iktomi

It seems to me that most people are glossing over something significant.

I interpret "instance cluster" to mean "repeatable content". Usually this form of repeatable content is combat based, and broadly speaking set for either small group (3), full group (6) or Raid (6+) or a combination of the 3, with multiple difficulty levels and various challenge modes. So generally speaking, as a casual player who is solo focused, the instance clusters are not a good investment for me.

One thing (and this is the part that is being glossed) is what Sapience has said: "... we are not including a new instance cluster in ROR, the expansion will ship with an entirely new type of repeatable high level content...". So they are trading one type of high level repeatable content (IC) for a different type of high level repeatable content (big unknown on what).

What I just want to know, as someone who loves group play in Lotro (small group (3), full group (6) or Raid (6+)), what does Turbine think I can do in Rohan with level 85 in a group that's actually fun and challenging, until the instance cluster is released.

When they say: Well, just run the old scaleable instances and skirmishes you've got already, I have to say: sorry, not again. Good bye.
When they say: We have something new! And they can explain how this will be fun and challenging in a group, well, maybe I will buy the expansion and hope for the best.

As long that there is this 'big unknown' I have to suggest that the situation with level 85 will even be worse for group players then now, where you can do at least a lot of instances and raids made for level 75. The Add-On won't be an advancement, it would be a step back to what we got now for group play, and that can't be a situation group-players can be happy about. Really, not.

Originally Posted by Iktomi

It seems to me that most people are glossing over something significant.

I interpret "instance cluster" to mean "repeatable content". Usually this form of repeatable content is combat based, and broadly speaking set for either small group (3), full group (6) or Raid (6+) or a combination of the 3, with multiple difficulty levels and various challenge modes. So generally speaking, as a casual player who is solo focused, the instance clusters are not a good investment for me.

One thing (and this is the part that is being glossed) is what Sapience has said: "... we are not including a new instance cluster in ROR, the expansion will ship with an entirely new type of repeatable high level content...". So they are trading one type of high level repeatable content (IC) for a different type of high level repeatable content (big unknown on what).

If "scales" better for both the solo centric players like myself as well as the group centric players that are drawn to IC type events and offers a comparable rewards, then I for one don't see what the issue is that the instance clusters aren't included. In fact if it is both of those, I see it as a better investment for my dollars or points than an IC is. It might be content I'll actually use and have fun with unlike the clusters.

For those that are truly focused on having the instance clusters, it has been stated that they will be included as part of the regular update cycle. It might be narrow minded, but let the those that want that feature, pay for that feature. I think it's a good thing that they are trying to create new content sets and systems to include in the expansions instead to try and appeal to a wider range of players. Will it work out? Time will tell.

Yes, I know it's the "let's wait and see thing" that makes a lot of folk skittish right now (myself included to some degree). This new repeatable high level content may actually be great for everyone. I could just as easily be a pig in a poke and smell just as pretty for a lot of people. I just can't see the need to pull out the pitchforks and torches until we have some more information to go on.

Anyways, that's just my 2 electrons worth.

oh, and


If at the end of the day, you stop being friends with someone because you no longer engage in 1 specific activity, then they are not your friends, or your family, rather they are just people you hang out with for a while. The bonds of friendship and family are stronger than that.

This is not to belittle your actual concern that the preferred activity you have chosen to do for fun, along with many people you know and hang out with and whose company you like, is not in danger. That is a very real thing and one I know you'd like to avoid But to say that your friendships, your family ties, you actual way of life is threatened, is (in my own opinion) just a tad over dramatic.

Ok so we have been told what some of this new high level end game content is. One of these is fishing. You really want new end game to be fishing? Cuz if thats go buy a fishing pole and a cup of worms and some beer and you can have alot more fun by going to a nearby river or lake and fishing there.

As for this other "end game content" they have already said it is going to be repeatables, which instantly bring to mind all the dailies in this game, which is a complete bore. Sorry but gathering wood or killing the same orc 400000000 times is really boring. I'd be willing to be the new part of this is that we see the town we do dailies for being built/repaired. Still doesn't make it more interesting. The other end game that has been talked about is war bands which we fight from out new biting horsey. Again I don't play this game to level so adding a mechanic that will only be available in the rohan are to help with quests doesn't interest me.

So why doesn't all this stuff interest me. Its simple. More often then not quest content, and dailies are a faceroll whether they are designed for groups or solo. Generally its just a way to waste time until you've finished them and your at level cap. I really don't like the rep vendors having the best jewelry in the game either which you gain rep by doing dailies. It greatly takes away the rewards from doing instances which used to have the best jewelry (but this is a different topic altogether).

I want instances because at present they are the only challenge in the game. Im not trying to be elitist or act like a "pro-player". Its just a fact. The solo play in this game, especially the questing content, is extremely easy. I really doubt RoR is going to be any different. I am almost positive that if i purchase Rohan I will get to 85 in a couple days then sit on my main and wonder whats next? Most likely I will have to go back and do dailies to get the new end game rewards. Joy. then the really boring part comes when I level my alts all the while looking forward to nothing once I get to 85.

I keep reading Treads and people keep useing the OLD Celestrata Posts over and over and over. Why not use the newer Celestrata posts.

The post Celestrata later

However, as I have said before and I will say again, we are just not currently discussing the pricing of the instance cluster at this time. When we can discuss the pricing of the instance cluster, we absolutely will start answering questions on it. Until then, the only information we have right now is that the instance cluster will be coming out in a major update after the expansion.

Also on the same topic same post Celestrata we should use FAQ thread http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...sked-Questions

But no one listens.

Originally Posted by Celt_Ainvar

I keep reading Treads and people keep useing the OLD Celestrata Posts over and over and over. Why not use the newer Celestrata posts.

You mean, the exact quote I quoted a few posts ago in this thread? That post of hers is simply a repeat of the "no comment" posts of previous days. And it uses a new phrase - "major update" - which differs from Sapience's reference to "regular update cycle". This not only fails to answer any of the concerns being raised, it gives us more reason to worry that Turbine plan to charge VIPs for the instance cluster as well as for the expansion. The inability or unwillingness of Turbine to address such a basic and pivotal question obviously gives cause for concern.

Originally Posted by Celt_Ainvar

But no one listens.

Listen to what? There's nothing to listen to, that's the problem. The FAQ tells us nothing about the issues causing concern and the thread you linked to is locked. Your plea to shut up and wait is akin to the old argument that we should "wait to see before complaining", followed once something goes live by "it's live now, there's no point complaining". Personally I am very concerned that Turbine are debating internally whether to charge VIPs cash for the instances. I want to make damn sure I play my part in communicating - before it's a done deal - how unacceptable this would be to me.

So you have not read all the treads Tarmas_Eldar . When Hosgrim ask about the FAQ. Celestrata replyed to Hosgrim.

Originally Posted by Hosgrim
We are being completely ignored. The frequently asked questions thread at the top of this forum was locked because people were asking questions.

Our questions have not been answered, and nobody has even told us when they will be.

Originally Posted by Celestrata

That is completely untrue. I closed the FAQ thread because it was suppose to not originally be open. We'd rather have questions and discussion occur in the many other threads here in the forum rather than all being jumbled up in that single thread. I stated that in my closing post in that thread.

However, as I have said before and I will say again, we are just not currently discussing the pricing of the instance cluster at this time. When we can discuss the pricing of the instance cluster, we absolutely will start answering questions on it. Until then, the only information we have right now is that the instance cluster will be coming out in a major update after the expansion.

When I sent a tell to Celestrata.

She wrote this

Celt_Ainvar,


To be very honest, that sticky already exists, and it's stuck at the top of the pre-order forum. It's our Riders of Rohan FAQ, and we're updating it with infrormation as it's released. We are pointing to it, but it seems it's currently not catching on. That FAQ, however, has what we have stated so far regarding the expansion.


~Celestrata

So as you can see. So far Tarmas_Eldar we can look at FAQ. Then ask questions about stuff that on it. As for the Instance cluster. It later in the year. Mybe Celestrata is also in the dark on the subject. Or has to follow the rules of WB/Turbine. Like they have on Closed Beta.

Originally Posted by Celt_Ainvar

So far Tarmas_Eldar we can look at FAQ. Then ask questions about stuff that on it. As for the Instance cluster. It later in the year. Mybe Celestrata is also in the dark on the subject. Or has to follow the rules of WB/Turbine. Like they have on Closed Beta.

I know what the FAQ says. It doesn't address the question being asked, ie: will VIPs be asked to pay additional cash for instances. That question (or clarification) has been asked frequently. It has not been answered in the frequently asked questions list. Celestrata's posts and messages say nothing different to the FAQ.

I know she and Sapience are not the decision-makers. I know they have to wait until the bosses decide what they want to do. I don't blame them for the lack of information. I doubt they know much more then we do.

So, what's your point?

By their nature, FAQs aren't going to list answers to questions unless they're frequently asked.

We can only frequently ask them here. Most of what's being asked at this point hasn't specifically been addressed yet... so I'm not sure of the problem or what reading the FAQ will do until it is updated again lol

To update my refund situation, Turbine has given me yet another ridiculous response:

"Greetings ,

Thank you for your response.

Your help request has been escalated to a supervisor.

The Knowledge Base FAQ article that you referring to is not advertising for the product, and the instance cluster was not included in the list of features included with and agreed to at the point of sale for the expansion.


We do apologize for any confusion, but as previously stated, we are unable to assist you with a refund of your purchase as the product has already been applied and you have successfully received the benefits of your order.

Please note that if you do chose to dispute the charges that Turbine will take action against the account, which may include banning the account.


If you have any additional questions or concerns, please reply to this message and we will be happy to assist further. Please do not update the default subject line in your reply.

Thank you for contacting the Turbine Account Management Team.

Turbine, powered by our fans."



So, if the FAQ shouldn't be used to decide upon buying a product, why does it exist?

"Powered by our fans"

Yeah, right.

Originally Posted by frayedknot

Please note that if you do chose to dispute the charges that Turbine will take action against the account, which may include banning the account.

At least they're willing to attempt to intimidate and threaten you as well.

Originally Posted by Celt_Ainvar

I keep reading Treads and people keep useing the OLD Celestrata Posts over and over and over. Why not use the newer Celestrata posts.

Also on the same topic same post Celestrata we should use FAQ thread http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...sked-Questions

But no one listens.

How is the quote you quoted giving any different information that the first thing she said about not talking about pricing of the instance cluster? It's not.

.
.

Wow, just wow about the threatening of a ban because a customer wants a refund due to Turbine screwing up.

Photographic evidence of how well Turbine values their fans.

Originally Posted by frayedknot

Photographic evidence of how well Turbine values their fans.

The banning part is kind of frightening. I went so far as just canceling my complaint with Paypal. I can't keep up with this stuff constantly, it's just worn me down. I don't feel like all of this back and forth, hoping I won't get banned and then having to fight it if I am. This is just getting too stressful lol.

Originally Posted by frayedknot

Photographic evidence of how well Turbine values their fans.

You purchased the pre-order, applied the key, obtained the digital benefits...Turbine has ALWAYS had a policy that application of a key that bestows anything immediately cannot be refunded. This has ALWAYS been the case way back during AC2.

As for the action against an account if you dispute it, again, this is the norm with ANY company that deals with charge-backs.

Originally Posted by frayedknot

To update my refund situation, Turbine has given me yet another ridiculous response:

"Greetings ,

Thank you for your response.

Your help request has been escalated to a supervisor.

The Knowledge Base FAQ article that you referring to is not advertising for the product, and the instance cluster was not included in the list of features included with and agreed to at the point of sale for the expansion.


We do apologize for any confusion, but as previously stated, we are unable to assist you with a refund of your purchase as the product has already been applied and you have successfully received the benefits of your order.

Please note that if you do chose to dispute the charges that Turbine will take action against the account, which may include banning the account.


If you have any additional questions or concerns, please reply to this message and we will be happy to assist further. Please do not update the default subject line in your reply.

Thank you for contacting the Turbine Account Management Team.

Turbine, powered by our fans."



So, if the FAQ shouldn't be used to decide upon buying a product, why does it exist?

"Powered by our fans"

Yeah, right.

Man that is just unbelievable....