Thread: Might/Agility/Vitality goals

I am pretty new to 75 as a champion, and was wondering what is generally considered "ideal" for end-game stats in different settings (Glass-canon, general DPS, tanking)?

I have seen the average on http://ttahvo.webatu.com/index.php, but that only gives one value, in the "middle road". Is there something beside M/V/A which trumps the decision when considering new gear (tactical mitigation for tanking maybe ?)?

Have 2 sets of gear: glass cannon and tank. I swap out almost every single piece of gear for tanking. If you do this, you can always add a little of the tank gear to your glass cannon stuff if you're running with a not-so-great tank, etc. My regular DPS gear is around 2k might, 550 agi 400 vit (about 6.7k morale unbuffed...I'm thinking about running a little more glass cannon than this). Tank gear is about 1k might 420 agi 1500 vit.

For DPS gear you don't really have to focus on mits except in your virtues or if you're fighting Saruman or something. It's pretty easy to hit common mit cap with Hedge up in Glory, so you should focus more on tac mit in your tanking gear selection.

I have a glass cannon build, not enough tanking gear yet, though I carry around get to quickly put on 1k morale

IMO, shoot for:

2200+ might
6000+ morale
300-500 agi (I'm over 500 as I value the reduced miss chance with my axe)
Crit: at least 5000? Moar is better
3000-5000 finesse

I like your goals there Nakiami!

You want loads more crit than 5k. I run with like 7.5k (gets up to about 9.3k with normal buffs, more if I get RK runesign love) but since any respectable champ is gonna have a maxed out crit multiplier legacy and we get lots of other bonuses from crits (Swift to Anger extra pips on crit, Blood-lust extra pips on crits, other sources of crit mag including on skills themselves) it's definitely something you want to get pretty high. 7.5k is depressing low to me...I want to get it up higher so that it caps when buffed.

I have about 9.5k crit unbuffed and I could easily reach 10k but I am too lazy for that .

well ur goals in a class depend from ur expectations really.. in general i use 3 builds on my champ :
glass cannon:
morale: 5250 (many will say its too little but never needed any more than this)
might 2100, vitality 380, agility 575, crit rating 8700.

raid (saruman) build:
morale 6300, might 2000, vitality 480, agility 450, crit rating 7,8ish tactical mitigation 8,5k.

tank build:
morale 12500ish, might 1000, vitality 1350ish, agility 100ish, crit rating 4kish and mitigations both over 11k.

but still its personal choice, u must find what suits ur playstyle best and the 1st build u do should be the one u feel u need more. (if ur kin lacks tanks lets say maybe its wiser to start creating a tankish build etc.)

Originally Posted by Nakiami

I have a glass cannon build, not enough tanking gear yet, though I carry around get to quickly put on 1k morale

IMO, shoot for:

2200+ might
6000+ morale
300-500 agi (I'm over 500 as I value the reduced miss chance with my axe)
Crit: at least 5000? Moar is better
3000-5000 finesse

Crit is way too low. Aim for at least 8k really and ideally 9k, so you can max out with raid buffs and Vicious Strikes.

Originally Posted by Thruili

I have about 9.5k crit unbuffed and I could easily reach 10k but I am too lazy for that .

If you are a raider, you will run into diminishing returns after 9k (no returns is more like it for those skills that Vicious Strike covers).

Thanks everyone for your help !

As a bonus, here are my current (poor) stats:
Might 1178
Agility 318
Vitality 678

Morale 6950
Crit rating 5409
Finesse 7056 (way too high !)
Tactical mit 5291

I have done all the deeds from ToO T1, except for saruman, so I now need a truckload of seals to get my two sets of armor (currently wearing three draigoch, two great river crit crafted and delualagos shoulders). My jewellery is entirely made of critted great river crafted items, as my jeweller as been working on it for months.

I already have some poor man's swap gear for vitality, and some for tanking (haul-tagur, huranc).

/swordsalute

Originally Posted by Miretocot

Crit is way too low. Aim for at least 8k really and ideally 9k, so you can max out with raid buffs and Vicious Strikes.



If you are a raider, you will run into diminishing returns after 9k (no returns is more like it for those skills that Vicious Strike covers).

The percentage in the tooltip is given for a lvl 75 mob but bosses in a raid have a higher level (up to 78) so I need more critical rating to reach the cap. In addition they have some critical defence which makes it even harder to crit against them. So I will keep my critical rating as it is and enjoy my number of crits .

Why do champions put such heavy emphasis on agility? For a champion, fate beats agility every time. They both contribute the same 1.8 points to critical rating, but fate gives us in combat regens. Agility gives us a tiny evade and a miniscule parry, neither of which are usable in fervour, and both of which are so small that their presence won't ever effect a fight. If you have to choose between might and agility/fate, always go might. If you have to choose between agility and fate, always go fate. I might even stack will over agility. Since agi/fate only give us 1.8 critical rating, stacking raw crit is more effective than building them up.

Originally Posted by eskla

Why do champions put such heavy emphasis on agility? For a champion, fate beats agility every time. They both contribute the same 1.8 points to critical rating, but fate gives us in combat regens. Agility gives us a tiny evade and a miniscule parry, neither of which are usable in fervour, and both of which are so small that their presence won't ever effect a fight. If you have to choose between might and agility/fate, always go might. If you have to choose between agility and fate, always go fate. I might even stack will over agility. Since agi/fate only give us 1.8 critical rating, stacking raw crit is more effective than building them up.

Agility also gives us reduced miss chance. Fate < Agility.

Originally Posted by eskla

Why do champions put such heavy emphasis on agility? For a champion, fate beats agility every time. They both contribute the same 1.8 points to critical rating, but fate gives us in combat regens. Agility gives us a tiny evade and a miniscule parry, neither of which are usable in fervour, and both of which are so small that their presence won't ever effect a fight. If you have to choose between might and agility/fate, always go might. If you have to choose between agility and fate, always go fate. I might even stack will over agility. Since agi/fate only give us 1.8 critical rating, stacking raw crit is more effective than building them up.

fate is far less important than agilty, actually fate is not important at all for the following reasons:

a) power regen? why would a champ need that? fervour+second wind+occasional CB and u will never run out of it
b) in combat morale regen? hmm meh
c) u forget that agiliry governs ur miss chance. as an example, with 400 agility i had a miss chance around 4-5% now that im running with 575 agility i never have a miss chance over 3%. in other words my dps has risen at least for 1% (not to say that it governs also many other factors like corruption removal and interrupts lets say)

so simply put, crit + more dps (agility) is way better than crit + useless regens

Agility for misses. In my opinion misses are the single biggest factor that contributes to lost DPS. I hates misses and my miss chance on some raid bosses has been around 7-10% with 700+ agil. This may be just bad luck cause its not consistent but its still really annoying.

Extra ICPR is great against opponents that drain power, such as defilers and warleaders. What is your source for agility lowering miss chance? I don't remember reading that in the tooltip, though admitedly I haven't tested it.

EDIT: apparently this person has. http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...sis-LUA-Plugin
You are correct, agility does have an effect on miss chance. I may be rethinking some of my gear choices. On a side note, how come the forums have all converted to german? It makes it really hard to select the right buttons when everything is in another language!

"Extra ICPR is great against opponents that drain power, such as defilers and warleaders" i am not a pvp player so cant know whether fate is useful in pvp but in pve i have not even 100 fate and i have never had power problems..

Originally Posted by eskla

Why do champions put such heavy emphasis on agility? For a champion, fate beats agility every time. They both contribute the same 1.8 points to critical rating, but fate gives us in combat regens. Agility gives us a tiny evade and a miniscule parry, neither of which are usable in fervour, and both of which are so small that their presence won't ever effect a fight. If you have to choose between might and agility/fate, always go might. If you have to choose between agility and fate, always go fate. I might even stack will over agility. Since agi/fate only give us 1.8 critical rating, stacking raw crit is more effective than building them up.

As others have pointed out, agility also lowers our miss chance, which contributes way more to our DPS than any ICPR you might get from stacking fate. Besides that it's kind of hard to find DPS gear with fate on it. So by choosing pieces with fate you will most likely also have choosen a piece that is not best in its slot for DPS.

Originally Posted by eskla

On a side note, how come the forums have all converted to german? It makes it really hard to select the right buttons when everything is in another language!

The forums themselves have not been converted to German - just click on the American flag in the top right area of any forum page to switch back to English.

My glass canon build gives meun buffed

5.8k morale
27k phys mastery
10k crit
~40% tac mit
2150 might
530 agi
470 vit

With 1 min SD and call of wild trait I can use SD every 20-30 sec meaning I never die to a steady stream of damage, only ridiculous 1 shots which is fairly rare.

Originally Posted by Shintagh

My glass canon build gives meun buffed

5.8k morale
27k phys mastery
10k crit
~40% tac mit
2150 might
530 agi
470 vit

With 1 min SD and call of wild trait I can use SD every 20-30 sec meaning I never die to a steady stream of damage, only ridiculous 1 shots which is fairly rare.

Why would you slot blue traits in a glass cannon build?

Can't remember all my stats exactly but might 2100ish, agi over 700, nearly 9k crit, vit 400ish, morale 6300... almost 27k phys amastery... playing with the crit phys mastery balance... crit seems to have severe diminishing returns after 8.5kish, need a ring and an earring with high might... maybe a 2nd Easterlings War Bracelet...

Originally Posted by KhelgarFK

Why would you slot blue traits in a glass cannon build?

Can't remember all my stats exactly but might 2100ish, agi over 700, nearly 9k crit, vit 400ish, morale 6300... almost 27k phys amastery... playing with the crit phys mastery balance... crit seems to have severe diminishing returns after 8.5kish, need a ring and an earring with high might... maybe a 2nd Easterlings War Bracelet...

I'm currently running this build:

6k Morale
2.2k might
649 agility
8.2k crit
6.2k Finesse
~30k phys. Mastery (don't have the exact value in my head, as my.lotro doesn't list mastery)

I'd like to get crit a bit higher, but not at the expense of wasting too much mastery in exchange.

Originally Posted by Shintagh

My glass canon build gives meun buffed

5.8k morale
27k phys mastery
10k crit
~40% tac mit
2150 might
530 agi
470 vit

With 1 min SD and call of wild trait I can use SD every 20-30 sec meaning I never die to a steady stream of damage, only ridiculous 1 shots which is fairly rare.

I don't have the SD legacy on my DPS sword (wastes a slot for a DPS legacy) and I also refuse to trait blue in DPS setup, especially something like Call of the Wild, as aggro already is an issue when I go all out on DPS, so having additional threat gen on one of my most used skills is kind of counter productive.

I'm thinking that to get the maximum out of all your stats you probably need to dual wield... It's really the only way to guarantee the stats that you want. I'm done with the 2nd age 4 legacy lottery, I've levelled a dozen 2H to 30 to see if I can get a 4th major to no avail (got 5 on a 3rd age though )... let alone get the perfect stats on one... might try my luck with a 1H... nothing else to do until RoR anyhow

Originally Posted by KhelgarFK

Why would you slot blue traits in a glass cannon build?

That one trait allows you to go as much glass canon as you want if you're know how to use SD smart.

Originally Posted by Vodomir

I don't have the SD legacy on my DPS sword (wastes a slot for a DPS legacy) and I also refuse to trait blue in DPS setup, especially something like Call of the Wild, as aggro already is an issue when I go all out on DPS, so having additional threat gen on one of my most used skills is kind of counter productive.

So what would you have instead of SD legacy? A stat scroll? pfft... I have Crit,WA,Remorseless,Brutal maxed on my weapon and that is all you need for ST dps. The AoE legacy is a complete and utter waste as you never NEED AoE dps in any of the current end game content. In contrast everything is ST dps race.

CoTW doesnt give that much threat. Look at it this way, instead of working towards a general build that gives you durability + good dps(I was never happy with my dps and most of the times I'd sit at max morale and when push came to shove I'd die anyway wishing I had SD) I went full glass canon and offset my squishiness with those 2 things. Just think about it, a free ~4k heal/bubble every 20-30 sec. Any other class would kill to have that. A dps class never dies from constant dmg(healers/revealing mark can easily heal through that), only dumb 1 or 2 shots and if all the dps is taking hits champs will be the last to receive heals as they're expected to be "less squishy"(which is where 20sec SD comes in) but in all honesty if you want to bring a champ for dps you should expect him to be somewhat squishy. I see champs next to me with 9k morale die while I'm happily sitting in my bubble.

Of course I put a great trust in my ability to use SD proactively, I have gotten very good at it with the passage of time.

Originally Posted by Vodomir

I'm currently running this build:

6k Morale
2.2k might
649 agility
8.2k crit
6.2k Finesse
~30k phys. Mastery (don't have the exact value in my head, as my.lotro doesn't list mastery)

I'd like to get crit a bit higher, but not at the expense of wasting too much mastery in exchange.

Phys mastery has some serious diminishing returns. If you want to hit over 2k or eye the 2.5-3k dps mark you need crit period, no amount of realistic phys mastery(even 34-35k) will get you that high. +%age damage can be filled in by group buffs but crit cant. Compare how much your crit is in/out of group to how much your %age dmg inc is in/out of group.

Below is a great post explaining the crit vs p.mastery dilema. Read Vandervhan's post on page 2.
http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...-Endings/page2

Oh btw 6.2k fineness is the definition of overkill .

Originally Posted by Shintagh

That one trait allows you to go as much glass canon as you want if you're know how to use SD smart.

I'm also running glass cannon and you really don't need SD every 40 seconds, not even in ToO T2. I stand by my words, you waste a slot that would better be used running a DPS trait, as DPS is what a glass cannon is built for, right?

Originally Posted by Shintagh

So what would you have instead of SD legacy? A stat scroll? pfft... I have Crit,WA,Remorseless,Brutal maxed on my weapon and that is all you need for ST dps. The AoE legacy is a complete and utter waste as you never NEED AoE dps in any of the current end game content. In contrast everything is ST dps race.

I use a DW setup and in that case the AoE legacy is anything but wasted, as Bladewall will be your other pip builder next to Wild Attack. I run Remorseless, Crit, AoE, Wild Attack, Rend Bleed DMG and a might legacy on my sword

Originally Posted by Shintagh

CoTW doesnt give that much threat.

Any threat on top of what my sheer DPS already produces is just too much. It will just make me have to throttle my DPS to not grab aggro off the tank, thus lowering my DPS - I say no, thanks.

Originally Posted by Shintagh

Look at it this way, instead of working towards a general build that gives you durability + good dps(I was never happy with my dps and most of the times I'd sit at max morale and when push came to shove I'd die anyway wishing I had SD) I went full glass canon and offset my squishiness with those 2 things.

Umm, I went glass cannon, too, and you don't need a bubble any every 20-30 sec. Even at 6k I don't really feel the squishiness.

Originally Posted by Shintagh

Just think about it, a free ~4k heal/bubble every 20-30 sec. Any other class would kill to have that. A dps class never dies from constant dmg(healers/revealing mark can easily heal through that), only dumb 1 or 2 shots

And a bubble won't exactly save you from those 1 or 2 shots, unless you have some magic way to predict when those 1 or 2 shots are coming.

Originally Posted by Shintagh

I see champs next to me with 9k morale die while I'm happily sitting in my bubble.

5k Morale and a <4k Bubble make up for what? 9k morale ... how are you surviving when they don't? And I don't even die with my 6k morale. You shouldn't forget that I still have the bubbles, just not every 20-30 secs (and you don't need them that often, otherwise you or your raid are doing something seriously wrong)

Originally Posted by Shintagh

Phys mastery has some serious diminishing returns. If you want to hit over 2k or eye the 2.5-3k dps mark you need crit period, no amount of realistic phys mastery(even 34-35k) will get you that high.

You realise that crit also suffers from sever diminishing returns after a certain point? 10k unbuffed is way too high for any raid scenario, as with Vicious Strikes and the trait line bonus you will already be overcapped for all strikes that matter, even without a Captain's buff? In a raid setting I will be capped for all relevant skills, too, all your crit advantage goes to waste there. Btw. I am hitting over 2k DPS in a raid.

Originally Posted by Shintagh

+%age damage can be filled in by group buffs but crit cant. Compare how much your crit is in/out of group to how much your %age dmg inc is in/out of group.

I lost you there. Crit can easily be filled by Captains and Runekeepers. So I prefer to have Crit and Mastery high prior to buffs, instead of omitting mastery for the sake of overcapping crit.

Originally Posted by Shintagh

Oh btw 6.2k fineness is the definition of overkill .

Well, raid bosses do have quite some Finesse and it's not like I built for Finesse, it just happens to be on the Threkappi Helmet, the Anduin Exemplar's Ring and the Golden Barter Necklace from the Ox Clan Camp. I wouldn't turn down a piece of equip because it has Finesse on it, as long as it's still the best DPS piece in that slot.

Originally Posted by Thruili

The percentage in the tooltip is given for a lvl 75 mob but bosses in a raid have a higher level (up to 78) so I need more critical rating to reach the cap. In addition they have some critical defence which makes it even harder to crit against them. So I will keep my critical rating as it is and enjoy my number of crits .

Yes, I considered that the Critical Hit percentages are for on-level mobs, but do you have precise numbers on what those percentages translate to in terms of level 78 mobs? If not, I am not sure the opportunity cost of losing other stats is worth it (keep in mind that going too high on Critical Hit have more rapid diminishing returns than other stats even without considering the cap issue).

I actually used to run a 10k-plus Critical Hit build, but losing so much Physical Mastery and morale just seemed counter-productive when the gains from 1k Critical hit after the 9k threshold seemed so minimal. In fact, I was persuaded so by folks on this very forum!

Originally Posted by eskla

Why do champions put such heavy emphasis on agility? For a champion, fate beats agility every time. They both contribute the same 1.8 points to critical rating, but fate gives us in combat regens. Agility gives us a tiny evade and a miniscule parry, neither of which are usable in fervour, and both of which are so small that their presence won't ever effect a fight. If you have to choose between might and agility/fate, always go might. If you have to choose between agility and fate, always go fate. I might even stack will over agility. Since agi/fate only give us 1.8 critical rating, stacking raw crit is more effective than building them up.

Just plain not true, but others have already articulated the reasons why this is so.

As an aside, what build are you exactly pursuing? I looked at your character, and you seem to not fit either DPS, tanking, or Etten build, as your stats are all over without much seeming coherence.

Originally Posted by Vodomir

...Any threat on top of what my sheer DPS already produces is just too much. It will just make me have to throttle my DPS to not grab aggro off the tank, thus lowering my DPS - I say no, thanks....

And a bubble won't exactly save you from those 1 or 2 shots, unless you have some magic way to predict when those 1 or 2 shots are coming....

You realise that crit also suffers from sever diminishing returns after a certain point? 10k unbuffed is way too high for any raid scenario, as with Vicious Strikes and the trait line bonus you will already be overcapped for all strikes that matter, even without a Captain's buff? In a raid setting I will be capped for all relevant skills, too, all your crit advantage goes to waste there. Btw. I am hitting over 2k DPS in a raid....

Agree with all these points by Vodomir in his dialogue with Shintagh.

Originally Posted by Vodomir

I use a DW setup and in that case the AoE legacy is anything but wasted, as Bladewall will be your other pip builder next to Wild Attack. I run Remorseless, Crit, AoE, Wild Attack, Rend Bleed DMG and a might legacy on my sword

May be it's BW isn't very useful for me because I use a 2H and don't say I lose dps/pips because of one less skill because my WA devs for 3k and with insane crit + bloodlust I'm hardly ever pip thirsty.

Originally Posted by Vodomir

Any threat on top of what my sheer DPS already produces is just too much. It will just make me have to throttle my DPS to not grab aggro off the tank, thus lowering my DPS - I say no, thanks.

Against a half descent tank if you ebb 15-30 seconds into the fight the tank should never lose agro, specially if you have multiple champs. A warden should outright never lose agro and guards have threat copy so... . I've never held back on dps with CoTW and don't say I don't hit hard enough because I do. On the off chance I do pull refer to 1st sentence of the paragraph.

Originally Posted by Vodomir

And a bubble won't exactly save you from those 1 or 2 shots, unless you have some magic way to predict when those 1 or 2 shots are coming.

As I said I've gotten good at it and sometimes I just hit it even at max morale, the point being I never hesitate to use SD because of the short CD and it's always there when I need it.

Originally Posted by Vodomir

5k Morale and a <4k Bubble make up for what? 9k morale ... how are you surviving when they don't? And I don't even die with my 6k morale. You shouldn't forget that I still have the bubbles, just not every 20-30 secs (and you don't need them that often, otherwise you or your raid are doing something seriously wrong)

By 9k I meant buffed compared to my ~7.3k buffed. Like I said it's not that you NEED it every 20-30 but it gives you more room to manoeuvre. For example when saruman's refuse to leave shadow puddles I can just hit SD and go in there and wack him for a bit while the champ next to me is saving his SD OR the little taskmaster summons humping the healer I can just go bubble and kill all if they tank for whatever reason can't pick um up. 20-30sec SD isn't a purely defensive thing, it gives you more options than what comes to mind initially.

Originally Posted by Vodomir

You realise that crit also suffers from sever diminishing returns after a certain point? 10k unbuffed is way too high for any raid scenario, as with Vicious Strikes and the trait line bonus you will already be overcapped for all strikes that matter, even without a Captain's buff? In a raid setting I will be capped for all relevant skills, too, all your crit advantage goes to waste there. Btw. I am hitting over 2k DPS in a raid.

FYI you need ~12k to cap crit against lvl 75 mobs, nevermind 77(I think it's like 15k) mobs and the only way to get that is 10k unbuffed + cappy buffs + vicious to overcap for overleved mobs.

Originally Posted by Vodomir

I lost you there. Crit can easily be filled by Captains and Runekeepers. So I prefer to have Crit and Mastery high prior to buffs, instead of omitting mastery for the sake of overcapping crit.

You have to be kidding right. Good mini AoW gives +15% melee dmg, where can i find +15% crit? You'd need 3 burgs for that and burg zerg is a whole different conversation. IDOME 75 might = 750 p.mastery, 75agi+75fate = 262.5 crit. To arms is dmg buff not crit buff, oathies dmg buff, LMs reducing mits, there are so many things that give dmg buff but very few give crit buff. RK rune sign is single target buff, we're talking about group buffs. If you take individual buffs than this discussion becomes irrelevant as you could probably buff anything to any point you want.

Originally Posted by Vodomir

Well, raid bosses do have quite some Finesse and it's not like I built for Finesse, it just happens to be on the Threkappi Helmet, the Anduin Exemplar's Ring and the Golden Barter Necklace from the Ox Clan Camp. I wouldn't turn down a piece of equip because it has Finesse on it, as long as it's still the best DPS piece in that slot.

Raid boss fininess is irrelevant as fineness doesn't counter fineness, only bpe/resist. If it comes naturally it's fine but just saying the difference between 6k fineness and 4k fineness is very very trivial.


All in all I don't object to your build or anything, was just presenting mine and offering others to try it. If you don't want to that's fine with me, as long as you hit hard in raids.

Since when is everything a ST dps race? All Orthanc trash is AoE-friendy, as is acid boss (unless you're burg zerging) and Saruman. Even if you're building for pure ST DPS with a 2h, the AoE damage legacy makes your rend and, when it's working correctly, swift blade hit harder.

Sometimes I wish I had SD on an even shorter CD, but there's no way on earth I'd slot CotW when I'm meant to be doing DPS.

I go for a balance between morale and damage output, and try to keep over 8k morale unbuffed, but I pretty much only PvP and don't do much raid content anymore. I also try to stack tactical mitigation, since virtually all the damage in the moors is tactical. I also am usually yellow traited (5y2r). With my moors gear my phys mastery drops to about 16-17k, but the ardour stance adds 18% damage. Red traited my phys mastery goes up to about 21-22k.

I think balance is a good approach, especially considering the effect diminishing returns has on our stats, at least in a PvP environment where we need to be ready for anything and prepared to do the unexpected.

Originally Posted by Shintagh

May be it's BW isn't very useful for me because I use a 2H and don't say I lose dps/pips because of one less skill because my WA devs for 3k and with insane crit + bloodlust I'm hardly ever pip thirsty.

No, you're not losing out on anything, as in a 2H setup your other pip builder (next to WA) will be Swift Strike, so it's perfectly fine to omit AoE dmg on a 2H weapon if you focus on ST damage. Btw. Bloodlust is an awesome trait for DW, too.

Originally Posted by Shintagh

Against a half descent tank if you ebb 15-30 seconds into the fight the tank should never lose agro, specially if you have multiple champs.

Not exactly true. All of your Raid will need to go all-out on DPS with Hunters breaking the 4-5k DPS mark in the first seconds of the fight (while the Tank uses Challenge first and then engage just before the Challenge wears off) for the Tank to hold up against 2k+ DPS throughout an entire fight, just ebbing 30 seconds into the fight won't do the trick. And even then it's not guaranteed that the guard (especially a half decent one) will hold aggro, as he actually needs to repeat the Challenge+Engage thing every time Challenge and Engage are off CD. A guard can not build threat worth of 2k+ DPS with his regular threat builders. One missed Challenge or Engage can mess things up seriously. That's why any additional threat is more than unwelcome.

Originally Posted by Shintagh

FYI you need ~12k to cap crit against lvl 75 mobs, nevermind 77(I think it's like 15k) mobs and the only way to get that is 10k unbuffed + cappy buffs + vicious to overcap for overleved mobs.

Your numbers seem to be off by a good margin. As far as I know, the crit cap is around 10.8k - 11k and going up against mobs that are level 77 will for sure not require 3k of additional crit to stay capped (something like 300 seems to be more realistic to me, as 3.000 would be 25% of the crit cap you suggested, while the mob's level didn't increase anywhere near those 25%). So with 10k crit unbuffed and a regular red line spec you are already overcapped for all your strike skills in any ST DPS fight, the Captain's crit buff is wasted by 100%. As said, I'd like to rise my crit to somewhere around 8.5k as I guess that's pretty much the sweet spot.

Originally Posted by Shintagh

You have to be kidding right. Good mini AoW gives +15% melee dmg, where can i find +15% crit?

+15% crit would equal way more than 15% melee dmg, and while I will profit from both, direct dmg buffs and crit buffs, you will most likely not see any benefit from crit buffs, as you are already kind of overcapped before being buffed.

Originally Posted by Shintagh

Raid boss fininess is irrelevant as fineness doesn't counter fineness, only bpe/resist. If it comes naturally it's fine but just saying the difference between 6k fineness and 4k fineness is very very trivial.

I'd be fine with having only 4k Finesse, but that Finesse came naturally, so I don't object it.

Originally Posted by Shintagh

All in all I don't object to your build or anything, was just presenting mine and offering others to try it. If you don't want to that's fine with me, as long as you hit hard in raids.

Not objecting yours neither. Discussion is always good to find the sweet spot, which will probably be somewhere between my build and your build. Just keep hitting hard, as that's what I also do Cheers.

Originally Posted by Shintagh

The AoE legacy is a complete and utter waste as you never NEED AoE dps in any of the current end game content. In contrast everything is ST dps race.

Everything in LotRO depends on playstyle. Some ppl like to make big pools while soloing instances, so AoE damage bouns matches thier playstyle perfectly. I'd not be so strict in opinions, as it's no single definitive build for champ.

Originally Posted by Vodomir

Not exactly true. All of your Raid will need to go all-out on DPS with Hunters breaking the 4-5k DPS mark in the first seconds of the fight (while the Tank uses Challenge first and then engage just before the Challenge wears off) for the Tank to hold up against 2k+ DPS throughout an entire fight, just ebbing 30 seconds into the fight won't do the trick. And even then it's not guaranteed that the guard (especially a half decent one) will hold aggro, as he actually needs to repeat the Challenge+Engage thing every time Challenge and Engage are off CD. A guard can not build threat worth of 2k+ DPS with his regular threat builders. One missed Challenge or Engage can mess things up seriously. That's why any additional threat is more than unwelcome.

If guard misses challenge/engage whether you have CoTW or not you WILL pull aggro, that's a 100% sure.

Originally Posted by Vodomir

Your numbers seem to be off by a good margin. As far as I know, the crit cap is around 10.8k - 11k and going up against mobs that are level 77 will for sure not require 3k of additional crit to stay capped (something like 300 seems to be more realistic to me, as 3.000 would be 25% of the crit cap you suggested, while the mob's level didn't increase anywhere near those 25%). So with 10k crit unbuffed and a regular red line spec you are already overcapped for all your strike skills in any ST DPS fight, the Captain's crit buff is wasted by 100%. As said, I'd like to rise my crit to somewhere around 8.5k as I guess that's pretty much the sweet spot.

+15% crit would equal way more than 15% melee dmg, and while I will profit from both, direct dmg buffs and crit buffs, you will most likely not see any benefit from crit buffs, as you are already kind of overcapped before being buffed.

Just logged in my champ and double checked cappy buffed ~12k is the crit cap against lvl 75 mobs and will be much higher than 12,600 for lvl 77 mobs. You must also account for the crit defence raid mobs have which is directly subtracted from your rating before being converted to a rating.

Originally Posted by Shintagh

Just logged in my champ and double checked cappy buffed ~12k is the crit cap against lvl 75 mobs and will be much higher than 12,600 for lvl 77 mobs. You must also account for the crit defence raid mobs have which is directly subtracted from your rating before being converted to a rating.

You sure it takes your crit rating over the cap and then subtracts the mob crit defence? Would make a cap pretty pointless if it does....

... thinking about rating vs % ... I guess the rating can go up and the % is capped, so against a L77 mob the 12k rating would equate to a lower % chance... so that makes sense... just had to work that through for myself, not a maths guru, I just hit things

Originally Posted by Shintagh

Just logged in my champ and double checked cappy buffed ~12k is the crit cap against lvl 75 mobs and will be much higher than 12,600 for lvl 77 mobs.

Where do you get those numbers from? I don't even think that you'll need 300 points of crit rating per level the mob us above you, but requiring much more than 12.600 seems to be unrealistic. Do you have any source to back up those numbers?

Originally Posted by Shintagh

You must also account for the crit defence raid mobs have which is directly subtracted from your rating before being converted to a rating.

I thought crit defence is converted into a percentage value which is then substracted from your effective crit chance (in percent). Substracting the crit def rating from your crit rating prior to the conversion into your effective crit chance doesn't make sense, as this would basically allow to negate crit defence if you overcap your rating enough. Caps are there for a reason.

about critical defence:

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...59#post5313859

Finesse was first planned to work like this but people complained about 'rising returns' and it got changed to what we have now (first converted into rating and than subtracted). I never took the time to calculate wether the 'rising returns' was indeed mathematically correct or just a misconception created in opposition to 'diminishing returns' on B/P/E (I have yet to calculate this as well). And I am not talking about the rating itself being concave (which it is) but rather about how long it takes to kill a player in comparison to a lower rating.
It may be possible that critical defence has been changed as well but that has (as far as I can remember) never been stated by any developer on this forum.

On my champ i preferred to go with a bit of a balance

1993 might
557 agi
946 vit

7k crit
26.4k physical mastery

Originally Posted by Thruili

about critical defence:

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...59#post5313859

Finesse was first planned to work like this but people complained about 'rising returns' and it got changed to what we have now (first converted into rating and than subtracted). I never took the time to calculate wether the 'rising returns' was indeed mathematically correct or just a misconception created in opposition to 'diminishing returns' on B/P/E (I have yet to calculate this as well). And I am not talking about the rating itself being concave (which it is) but rather about how long it takes to kill a player in comparison to a lower rating.

I was one of those who first raised the point about "rising returns" though I've stayed away from any philosophical point but the mathmatics of it are simple. Since B/P/E returns a reduced percentage of avoidance per rating point as the total percentage increases any effect which subtracts rating will have an increasing impact as the effect gets larger.

Simple demonstration:

Char with 3,000 points each in B/P/E (9,000 total points of avoidance) this works to (ROUGHLY) a 9% chance for each (9.16% to be more exact). If they face an opponent with 1,500 points of Finesse they would have, effectively 2,500 points in each or 7.75%. So 1,5000 points of Finesse would lead to a loss of 4.23% of avoidance (1.41% each).

If the player then faced an opponent with 3,000 points of Finesse they would have 6.3% in each, a total decrease of 8.58%...now here's the thing the first 1,500 points of Finesse accounted for 4.23% of that, which means the second 1,500 points accounted for 4.35% loss of avoidance.

Now this would continue until an opponent has more Finesse total than the character has B/P/E at which point avoidance would be 0 and any further Finesse on the opponent's part would be "wasted." So basically Finesse, as it was originally planned would have had rising returns up until it overcapped an opponent's avoidance ratings in total...at which point it would be a wasted addition.

Edit: corrected some mistakes

This is exactly what I mean because I calculate differently (i.e. relative changes and not absolute ones).

Using your numbers I would get: 3000 each in B/P/E gives 9.16% B/P/E each which are additive according to http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...t-works-now%29. That means 27.48% avoidance or I get hit for 72.52%. I am ignoring partial avoidances for now.
With 1500 Finesse (or 2500 B/P/E each) B/P/E would be reduced to 7.75% each which mean a total avoidance of 23.25% or getting hit for 76.75%. That means I take 76.75% / 72.52% - 1 = 5.83% additional damage.
Now with 3000 Finesse (or 2000 B/P/E each) B/P/E would be 6.3% which again means 18.9% total avoidance and therefore 81.1% damage taken. Now the extra damage taken would be 81.1% / 76.75% - 1 = 5.67% which is nearly the same as before but a little bit lower (aka diminish returns).

But the last point of yours is just the case: If I can get my Finesse higher than the total avoidance of my enemy I am going to hit him because I overcap my Finesse and therefore I will not get any additional benefit.

The new system works as follows:

3000 each in B/P/E means 9.16% B/P/E each and total 27.48% avoidance (72.52% damage taken).

1500 Finesse gets split into three times 500 Finesse affecting B/P/E seperately which reduces B/P/E by 1.65% each. So the total avoidance is reduced to 22.52% (77.48% damage taken). The additional damage taken is 77.48% / 72.52% - 1 = 6.84% which is in fact higher than before (was 5.83%).

The calculation for 3000 Finesse:
Split into three times 1000 Finesse which reduces B/P/E by 3.25% each. The total avoidance is then reduced to 17.72% (82.28% damage taken) which alters the additional damage taken to 82.28% / 77.48% - 1 = 6.19%. (I accidentally compared 3000 Finesse with 0 Finesse instead of 1500 Finesse).

Now the additional damage taken is a bit lower than with 1500 Finesse. While in the new system the additional damage per Finesse gets lower faster than before, the total effect of Finesse was lower in the old system.

I prefer comparing the numbers in the end of the calculation rather than in the middle of it. While the end result is acceptable (after I corrected my mistake) I still like the old system better because it seems more logical to me.

Originally Posted by Thruili

I prefer comparing the numbers in the end of the calculation rather than in the middle of it. I am glad I did calculate it because now I know that the new implemenation of Finesse is worse than the old one.

Depends on what you mean by "worse" From a champ Fervour tanking perspective its MUCH better. Since our Finesse reduces enemy B/P/E more under the current scheme (and I definitely see your math on that) we will do more outgoing damage. At the same time since we have 0 B/P/E while in Fervour any amount of Finesse on the enemy's part is wasted since they are already overcap on everything except for reducing our resists.

I corrected a mistake in my former post, so the difference between the old and the new system is not so big that I assumed accidentally.

Well, a Fervour champ does not care about the enemy having Finesse at all. But on the other hand, if I can tank something in Fervour, I do not care much about my stats as it is easy enough .