Thread: Going over the cap in common mitigation: Does it work against lvl 75+ mobs?

The other thread seems dead and i think a thread for this is not too bad...


In shadow t2, pulls and uruks at the boss, the damage is mainly common with a bit of tact damage in poison, shadow and wounds... I trait a lot of phy mit to get my common way over the cap(15k-16k-17k phy mit, over 22k-23k common) because i was under the impression that since they're lvl 76 and 77, i gotta get my common mits the higher possible. Now, the problem with this, is that i don't trait much tact mit for those pulls and the boss adds, and maybe i should, since there's a bit of tact damage around there, and for the common mits overcapping, i'm not slotting important traits like fidelity and tolerance...And i want to help the healers the best i can...

Basically, does going even more over capped in common mits(no matter what i trait, i'm always over the cap) against lvl 76 and 77 work, or should i just go tact traited since overcapping common mits even against higher lvl mobs doesn't work, at least till we're still lvl 75?


Thanks in advance

I'd say eating agility trail food would do you more good.

But seriously, don't bother at all stacking common mitigation, ever. It'll be high enough to reach cap in raidbuffs if you're in any kind of raidgear. I'm quite sure I've read common mit capping on ~20.5k raw rating against level 78 mobs on these, and eventhough that's unconfirmed that should really not be hard to reach without ever using virtues to get common mit up.

You would probably be of greater help to your healers by stacking avoidances, crit defence or incoming healing.

I am, my b/p/e is pretty good (in raid: block capped, parry can go to 22%, evade unbuffed is close to 12%, never saw how much in raid, i assume it can go to 15% or something) and my incoming healing is good as well(21-22%).


Well i can get my common mits to 23k...then again, my question is if going over cap will get me getting less damage in common damage from mobs higher than 75 or not.


Nonetheless, thank you... Would appreciate more opinions on this.

Well I'm fairly sure you'll cap way earlier than 23k, even against level 78 mobs, but I'd also love a second opinion from somebody who's got some mathematics up his sleeve perhaps!

Originally Posted by KrauserJoestar

I am, my b/p/e is pretty good (in raid: block capped, parry can go to 22%, evade unbuffed is close to 12%, never saw how much in raid, i assume it can go to 15% or something)

Nice evade! I'm assuming you're using 2x2 BPE runes? Too bad MyLotro doesn't want to show some of the stuff. Rather interested what you and Evendale (sent PM btw!) are wearing for some of the jewellery.

Originally Posted by KrauserJoestar

Well i can get my common mits to 23k...then again, my question is if going over cap will get me getting less damage in common damage from mobs higher than 75 or not.

23k? Are you quite sure you are thinking of common mitigations still? I'm guessing you would be slightly over cap with 12k already. While I don't know the exact numbers, I would say going around 2k over the 70% cap will get you capped against lvl 78 mobs as well.

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...on-and-Offence.

Originally Posted by Alad.

All Ratings to % conversions use this general formula:

% = Yo + 1 / [1 + K/(R/L - Xo)]

...

Heavy Armour Mitigation

This is used by Heavy Armour classes, no matter their level or what armour they're actually wearing, to convert any damage type Mitigation Rating to % (common, lightning, acid, etc...)

There seems to be a cap of 70% to Heavy armour Mitigations.

Determine your R/L, then use the values of K, Xo and Yo from the following table:

R/L	K	Xo	Yo	Result Range	Formula
0 - 16.667	150	0	0	0% - 10%	Old
> 16.667	150	16.667	0.10	> 10%	New

What is not clear to me is whether level refers to your level or the mobs level. If it is your level then it makes no difference going over cap.

If it is the mobs level then you can work out the rating needed for cap (I'm too lazy).

Just remember that these coefficients have been reverse engineered from empirical evidence with limited accuracy (percentages in character panel are always rounded to 1 decimal place), so YMMV.

@Jullandar


Nah i'm not mistaking it. You're clearly thinking about phy mits rate, which when are on 14-15k, common mits hit 22-23k if i'm not mistaken.


To be honest, last week i did some tests against lvl 76 guys(using mit scrolls and all)and the damage was just the same... so there's just 2 options:

a)going over cap doesn't matter/doesn't work

b) it works, but i'm getting more common mits than i need.


I'll pm you soon with by build, or part of it(parts containing agility/evade).

@q945

Thanks for the link and help.

It is my understanding that rating equations that use levels are based on the level of what you are fighting. They show your level in the tips so you have an idea of what you are doing against mobs of your own level. So yes what is capped for level 75 isn't capped for 76 or 77 mobs. This isn't going to have a large impact as the scaling +/- a level or two isn't very large. In other words capped for 75 is still very close to capped at 76 and 77.

I'd suggest checking out your other stats for an area to improve if you want more survivability.

The real question is does turbine hard cap our ratings effectiveness@75. so that the L76/L77 rating values are meaningless?

This is a question that someone like Gralax2 would be suited to answer.

Originally Posted by KrauserJoestar

@Jullandar
Nah i'm not mistaking it. You're clearly thinking about phy mits rate, which when are on 14-15k, common mits hit 22-23k if i'm not mistaken.

Aye, realized too late that there is a separate rating number in the physical tooltip for common mits. If it follow the same logic, I suspect you are indeed slightly overcapped for common mitigation then.

I just finished some tests, seems like going over cap is working, i tested it in pits t2 on first pull (3 76lvl orc workers). My friend, minstrel, was healing me there but only with raise the spirit and bolster courage (any skills that could affect inc dmg wasnt used). Here are results:



after that, with mit scroll used,



and finally, after switching virtues and swaping draig cloak for sarchol



On screens you can see my mits (obviously ;P), max/min dmg from CA, some chat logs for proof as well as damage dealt by orcs with certain types of attacks written on the side for easier comparision.
Still, it would be nice to see confirmation from graalx

Nice work.

Your results support using the mobs level or 76 as the level for the calculations.

There is a slight jump from the first to the second, but the second to third is basically the same even though the amount of rating raised is higher.

Using the equation posted earlier, for a level 76 mob you are slightly under cap in the first test and the second two tests are capped (second one is basically right at cap, third over cap).

Originally Posted by Agtug

I just finished some tests, seems like going over cap is working, i tested it in pits t2 on first pull (3 76lvl orc workers).

Wow nice work. That's very interesting

Originally Posted by Evendale

Wow nice work. That's very interesting

Interesting.
It'd be nice to have the raw cap rating #ers for various things against L76 and L77 mobs, as best as we can manage it.
Offical confirmation would still be wonderful

Originally Posted by Crell_1

Interesting.
It'd be nice to have the raw cap rating #ers for various things against L76 and L77 mobs, as best as we can manage it.
Offical confirmation would still be wonderful

Assuming we just substitute the mob's level into the original formulae (which that data suggests), then the mit cap for a L78 mob (eg: Lightning, Acid, and Fire & Frost bosses are 78 - Shadow is 75 & the Sarumans are mostly 77) is 18,850.

Awesome testing Agtug,

I suspect that the damage reduction you are seeing is not due to being "overcap" on common mit but having more physical mitigation.

From the link I posted:

Code:

Physical Mitigation  2*(M+V) + 0.2*Armour          >> 
 Common Mitigation     PM + 0.8*Armour             >>
 West/AnDwarf/Beler.   PM                          >>

You can see that the two mits have different equations but similar contributing factors (Might, Vit, Armour). Going overcap on Common Mit does not add to your Phys Mit (common misconception), but you will cap Common mit much easier due to the extra contribution from armour.

From what I have read, every incoming attack is mitigated by two factors, lets call them source and type. A simplified equation is something like:

incoming damage = base damage * (1 - source mit) * (1 - type mit)

Source is either Physical Mit (ranged or melee), or Tactical Mit (tactical skills, cries etc)
Type is either Common Mit or Tactical Mit eg beleriand, westernesse, fire, lightning, frost, acid, etc

Most trash mobs do Physical Common, a fiery sword would be Physical Tactical, a fire/fear DoT would be... Tactical Tactical (?)

In your figures you are capped on Common Mitigation, but not on Physical Mitigation. Increasing your Phys Mit to cap should help even against on-level trash mobs. Given the multiplicative nature of the factors the actual reduction will be pretty small tho.

I'm not sure how accurate the above equation is... it would seem that tactical mit is super important since it may be used twice for certain types of attacks (eg lighting AoE's)

The two pass mitigation that you're referring to is largely gone. It used to be that you could raise the ratings that are found in the "Damage Source" category. Those ratings have all been converted to physical or tactical mitigation ratings which are "Damage Type". The only thing that still uses damage source as far as I know is heavy shields which have -10% ranged damage, and since it's a percent and not a rating it still shows 0 ranged damage rating but the tool-tip shows 10% mitigation.