Don't try and tell me what my intent is, I made this thread because yes, people are whining as I 'put it'. Yes for valid reasons. But whining won't get you anywhere, Turbine are not going to release anymore info just because a minority of the playerbase are demanding them to do so.
If you don't think that the massive feedback on Day 1 was what had Turbine scrambling to translate an updated FAQ, then I don't know what to say.
Personally, I think feedback plays a *huge* part in what they do. It was likely the huge negative reaction to the instances not being included in the RoI pre-purchase that eventually got them added.
Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...
It must be so demoralising for them to look at the forum and see so many of their players hating on an unreleased product that won't be released for another 3 months!
(¬_¬) Can't tell if trolling or really that dense.
They are SELLING A PRODUCT. Right now. Asking us to give them money.
Customers have a right to ASK what they are receiving for their payment...and voice their disappointment/displeasure is the product does not meet expectations
The issue is that the product has been pretty ###### of late (lag, stability, bugs) and the fans of the game are/were hoping RoR would show some kind of shift in quality of content and communication.
Unfortunately, Turbine/WB has not done much to stem the tide of discontent and the messed up FAQs, the scant details on the Pre-purchase page and the notable unwillingness to respond candidly and openly to the very people who WANT to give them money is shocking.
Look at it this way: Imagine you went to your favorite restaurant and ordered a grilled chicken dinner but the chicken came out raw.
Would you
a) eat it and say thank you for the salmonella?
b) ask the waiter to return it to finish cooking it?
c) walk out and never patronize that restaurant again?
Now, assume the waiter didn't return to your table to ask if everything was ok. Wouldn't you try to get their attention?
Even if you personally worked on this expansion and are getting your feelings hurt, let the customers express their discontent.
No, it's not quantum mechanics. But apparently the reason people "whine" is a little more involved than you like to make it seem.
Right. And you're basically telling everyone to take their medicine (and negative feedback) and save their breath. People with years (and hundreds of dollars) invested in the game have every right to complain. At the very least, it will temper the rose-colored glasses and one-sided PR that everyone reads.
That alone is worth the time you apparently think we're wasting.
You tell me that multiple threads with dozens..... (eventually) hundreds - of current subscribers/VIPs (many of them here since day 1) telling Turbine they aren't buying this xpac (and the reasons why) isn't going to make a ripple in the fabric, eh?
Heh, we'll see...
For some, Turbine is always right. Doesn't really matter if an overwhelming threads keep popping up on a daily basis.
The blame is always on the players... right...
PS: Khafar, at this point no one is attacking your fellow developers at Turbine. We understand that they do what they are told. You follow the "developer-code" and have sticked up for them since Alpha. I understand and respect that. But defending Turbine on this one? Please...
You tell me that multiple threads with dozens..... (eventually) hundreds - of current subscribers/VIPs (many of them here since day 1) telling Turbine they aren't buying this xpac (and the reasons why) isn't going to make a ripple in the fabric, eh?
Heh, we'll see...
Yes, we will see. I don't believe the threads matter much if any to Turbine. The multiple thread aspect has been mostly dealt with by closed threads and having single threads for complaints. And of course, the percentage of users who read the forums is pretty small (WAG, but many folks in my kin for example, never do), so the impact of forum negativity overall is questionable. I'm guessing that the bottom line is mostly what matters here. If the pre-orders meet Turbine/WBs expectations for revenue, I believe that they will consider the advertising approach and the pricing scheme a success. If there is an inadequate pre-order compared to their expectations, or they experience game attrition beyond what they'd naturally expect to see -- they probably expect most users to stay only X months anyway -- that will get their attention. And if they have increased attrition in a "key" demographic, namely those who repeatedly buy TP and/or expansions, presumably that would get more attention.
I'm not yet on board with the pricing scheme/value proposition myself. I'm a lifer, saving up some points, and will evaluate my "buy for cash" vs TP decisions at a much later time with more information available. I expect I'll eventually buy, but nothing from the pre-purchase is making me want to rush that decision. I'd encourage those who haven't bought and have the slightest doubts to wait and see. By the beginning of September, you should know mostly what you are buying, how the beta has gone, how buggy it is, which features made the final cut, how cool the testers find the new riding combat, etc. Decide then... And if you have already bought and you based that decision on the erroneous "instances included" text before it was removed, you are certainly IMHO entitled to a refund (even if you need to ask your credit card if a charge back is appropriate by their terms).
And I think that characterizing those with issues with pricing or Turbine's communications as "whiners" is not appropriate. Nor is it constructive.
In regards to the thread title....it's the sound of small gears meshed together and running at high speed. Wait a bit and smoke will be visible...coming out of various ears.
Turbine will have a schedule for releasing information and companies make mistakes, in this case a huge mistake, but I think they understand that. It must be so demoralising for them to look at the forum and see so many of their players hating on an unreleased product that won't be released for another 3 months!
Turbine's marketing approach isn't a 'mistake' its strategy. The marketing approach they are using this year is the same as last year for RoI. They don't see their marketing approach as a mistake so long as they get their profit margin and business ethics do not seem to enter into their equation.
Once upon a time Turbine had my goodwill and I was always happy to hand money over to them as I felt I was supporting a game I enjoyed. Turbine's marketing approach has since changed and now I am resentful of handing over any money to them - partly because I do not feel they give value for money, but primarily because I do not like supporting a business with such underhand marketing tactics as Turbine employs. I have friends in game and I still enjoy the older content and so log on occasionally, however the chances of me buying RoR are slim at best.
Yes, we will see. I don't believe the threads matter much if any to Turbine.
I agree. They don't matter to Turbine much.
But when I am researching a new game - and gathering info which will ultimately make up the basis for my decision, where do I go? Do I read the MMO zines?
Not on your life.
I try to stay as far away as possible from anyone who's livelihood is related to the industry (and I follow this guideline in pretty much every consumer activity I may or not partake of).
First, I talk to people I know who's opinions I respect to see if they have experience with the product.
Then I go right to the forums. It's the face of the game for those who don't play it. Being a jaded vet myself, I can typically take such opinions with a grain of salt. But it's not hard to deduce a company's integrity from how their longest-term customers speak about them and their products.
I don't expect anything we say or do in this cycle of expansion will affect anything in the near (3-6 month) term. And I'll even admit that them going to Steam with the game may well be intended to offset the losses they will see from long timers leaving. They aren't stupid. People have threatened them before. They know the niches their gamers occupy. And like someone said above, it is highly likely that they're going completely away from the long-term customer model (after all, many of us cost them 500 TP/month) and completely to a more short term, higher numbers, dispensible model.
Lots of people I know did not partake of RoI. More people I know are saying they won't partake of RoR. For the first time, I'm serious about it myself. Old customers are among the highest maintenance as well as the hardest to please. I realize this. I realize I'm one of them.
Really, us "whiners" are doing them a favor. Personally, hearing what I'm doing wrong is usually more useful to me than hearing what I'm doing right.
Then I go right to the forums. It's the face of the game for those who don't play it. Being a jaded vet myself, I can typically take such opinions with a grain of salt. But it's not hard to deduce a company's integrity from how their longest-term customers speak about them and their products.
I guess. I've not played any other MMOs seriously. My reading on these forums is that some complaints seem to ME to have little or no merit. I learn code words, like I tend to ignore the statements of anyone who talks about "a slap in the face"... As an outsider, I'd have no idea how to evaluate the LOTRO forums, which have been pretty negative at times I personally felt like the game was going quite well, so if I were to go to another site, I'd also not be sure how to evaluate the material. In fact, if a site were largely sweetness and light, I'd tend to expect an even heavier moderating policy than LOTRO forums has. Any game will have design choices or policies that some people will love, some will hate, some will be in the middle. People happy with the choices often just go play the game, those very unhappy tend to vent in the forums....
People happy with the choices often just go play the game, those very unhappy tend to vent in the forums....
Oh, for sure.
But I want to know what people don't like about it. If I'm interested to the point of researching whether or not to buy a game, I probably already have my mind made up that I want to buy it.
I give the forums a chance to talk me out of it.
<snip>
And like someone said above, it is highly likely that they're going completely away from the long-term customer model (after all, many of us cost them 500 TP/month) and completely to a more short term, higher numbers, dispensible model.
Lots of people I know did not partake of RoI. More people I know are saying they won't partake of RoR. For the first time, I'm serious about it myself. Old customers are among the highest maintenance as well as the hardest to please. I realize this. I realize I'm one of them.
That's just it, I'm a long time player who wants to give them money, but I still want value; RoR has yet to give $40 worth of value from what I've seen so far.
You've probably hit the nail on the head tho, Turbine likely sees significantly better revenue from the short term player here for 6 months - 1 year who need to buy everything to get a character up to speed, than from the long term players who don't need to buy anything other than an expac and a few other conveniences in the store.
That's just it, I'm a long time player who wants to give them money, but I still want value; RoR has yet to give $40 worth of value from what I've seen so far.
You've probably hit the nail on the head tho, Turbine likely sees significantly better revenue from the short term player here for 6 months - 1 year who need to buy everything to get a character up to speed, than from the long term players who don't need to buy anything other than an expac and a few other conveniences in the store.
I guess we are proverbial plastic water bottles. Once they drain us dry we are simply discarded for a new one.
This makes me wonder if WB is simply milking us for whatever they can in order to shutter the project as quickly as possible.
It certainly smacks of simply wanting to 'exist' rather than be amazing.
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Re: Why all the constant whining?
I was under the impression that it was normal in the gaming industry for people to pre-order games without knowing what the final product would be like. If you trust the company to give you a good product or you just are really eager and hopeful for the product, you go ahead and pre-order, but you don't expect to know everything about the actual product you will receive in the future. I mean, isn't that the entire point of pre-ordering?
If you don't trust Turbine to deliver a good product then don't pre-order. If you want to know exactly what you're going to get for your money then don't pre-order. If you don't think the bonuses are worth the extra money then don't get the heroic or legendary editions.
But making assumptions and complaining about a product that doesn't exist yet is silly. Pre-ordering is a leap of faith. That's the POINT. If you don't have faith, don't do it. Just wait.
Fionnuala of Landroval
LOTRO /Music ~ A new website devoted to helping you explore the player music system.
… but you don't expect to know everything about the actual product you will receive in the future. I mean, isn't that the entire point of pre-ordering?
But making assumptions and complaining about a product that doesn't exist yet is silly. Pre-ordering is a leap of faith. That's the POINT. If you don't have faith, don't do it. Just wait.
There is a big difference between 'pre-order' and 'pre-purchase.
This is true, but for many people they bought after reading directly from Turbine that instances WERE included, only to find out after buying that they are not. That's not faith, that's buying after reading directly from the people supplying the product what is included, only to find out it is false, and no offer of a refund. Very bad form indeed. Turbine have started pulling stunts that would make even Gollum ashamed.
Last edited by monteeburns; Jun 11 2012 at 03:11 PM.
"Come and get one in the yarbles, if ya have any yarbles, you eunuch jelly thou!" - Alex DeLarge
I'm sure my thread is one of those that your directing this at.
1st. I would love to buy this expansion. I've bought all the others. Heck, I didn't even complain about RoI. But this went to far for the reasons I've stated many times.
2nd. Yeah, I hope Turbine get's dismayed. I hope they get so sad and down that they fire the entire marketing and end-game development teams.
3rd. Yeah, I expect more information. You know why? Because the only reason turbine opened pre-orders is too meet 2nd quarter financial expectations. No other reason. So, if they want my money to help them, they have to help me first.
You know it's bad when A Casual Stroll to Mordor starts hating on turbine.
The thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty forever beyond its reach.” - J.R.R. Tolkien
I was under the impression that it was normal in the gaming industry for people to pre-order games without knowing what the final product would be like. If you trust the company to give you a good product or you just are really eager and hopeful for the product, you go ahead and pre-order, but you don't expect to know everything about the actual product you will receive in the future. I mean, isn't that the entire point of pre-ordering?
If you don't trust Turbine to deliver a good product then don't pre-order. If you want to know exactly what you're going to get for your money then don't pre-order. If you don't think the bonuses are worth the extra money then don't get the heroic or legendary editions.
But making assumptions and complaining about a product that doesn't exist yet is silly. Pre-ordering is a leap of faith. That's the POINT. If you don't have faith, don't do it. Just wait.
I personally, and I think most people who are complaining, are not upset about the lack of information on what we are getting but rather what turbine is giving us. They had a faq that said an instance cluster was available with RoR, and then a couple of days later said it wasn't. If I had pre ordered based on that information I would have been irate. Now that they have cleared that up though lets look at what they are giving us for sure.
1) Rohan Quest Pack (for levelling to 85)
2) Mounted Combat
3) Cosmetics, fluff, and if you pay a bunch a 6th bag.
So for me I'm asking myself why would I pay 40-70 dollars for this? I was thoroughly dissapointed with Isengard and ended up taking a break after the instances and ToO came out. This xpac is looking the same if not worse and I will not be pre ordering unless some changes are made, which I highly doubt will happen. I don't want to run skirmishes that I've run a thousand times when this xpac comes out after I've done the questing and played with the new horse, which doesn't interest me all that much anyway. The only information we have about the instances to come is that they are discussing the pricing later. As VIP I think i will get the instances free in an update but if I was f2p there is no reason for me to pre order. However, I have seen no confirmation that VIP's will get the ic cluster free so who knows. At this point I really wouldn't be surprised if turbine took that away from us. If the instances were a part of this xpac then I would have pre ordered already and possibly sprung for a higher bundle.
I want to give turbine the money they need to keep this game going. I will not blindly support them when I see the xpacs being releases dropping in quality. If mounted combat was their selling point in this xpac then I'm sorry but I'm not interested. I like instances, and raids as end game content not a horse that can kick. For the first time since I've started playing this game I will not be buying the new xpac, and again for the first time the money I usually put towards turbine is going to be used to get a new game. Once said game is realeased I plan on dropping my sub, and stepping away from LOTRO for awhile. I do plan on checking in after the xpac has been released to see how the content is and hopefully they will have done and incredible job that really makes this quest pack and mounted combat worth it, but I have some serious doubts that will happen. Again though hopefully I'm wrong and turbine pulls me back in.
$40 isn't that much.. considering a retail release would be about $60-$70. Times may be tough but if that's the case, do you honestly expect Turbine to take sympathy and market their expansion at $20? They're a company at the end of the day, and they need to turn over a profit.
-Tails-
Wrong, expansions to established MMOs do NOT cost 60=70$. I have NO idea what MMO you were playing, but you're wrong about this one, bro.
The ROR expansion costs $40. People, if they wish, can pay more (up to $70) to get some fluff items.
No one is forcing anyone to buy anything. Preorder, order when launched, order after launch...do not order at all. It is the customer's choice.
$40 for a major expansion does not seem as if the forces of Sauron Himself have taken over Turbine.
This debate kind of reminds me of the Lifetime preorder prior to LOTRO launch. As I remember is was $100 or $200. People were complaining about that on the forums. Indeed, I remember one thread that mocked lifer preorders.
Bottom line, again, the pricing of ROR seems mighty reasonable to me. Perhaps the real problem is people want ROR to be $5 or $10......
Last edited by Aolain; Jun 11 2012 at 05:10 PM.
"Next the a battle lost, the saddest thing is a battle won." Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington
...
Companies do make mistakes, however it's how those mistakes are handled that shows the real ethos of a company.
...
Any respectable company would have sent out an email to those who purchased before the information was changed saying 'We're sorry we gave you false information about what you are buying, if you'd like a refund, we'd be happy to do so'. ...
Amazing there is silence from Turbine on their mistake and the refunds. Obviously, getting back to us is not a priority. I can just see them all meeting (lawyers included) and deciding what they are going to do, what they have to do, and talking about what if they just do nothing.
Shows a lack of respect for players, and that no one there is willing to stand up and say "hey, lets do the right thing here". I don't see any of the values in the sroty of LOTR (or any integrity or moral concern) present in this company's public dealings.
Serious PR fail. The can't get it that customers will cut you a lot of slack, if you respect them and sometimes give them something that you don't have to. "We are sorry, our mistake" goes a long way. Carefully making PR statements denying as much as they can - does not help at all.
Amazing there is silence from Turbine on their mistake and the refunds. Obviously, getting back to us is not a priority. I can just see them all meeting (lawyers included) and deciding what they are going to do, what they have to do, and talking about what if they just do nothing.
Shows a lack of respect for players, and that no one there is willing to stand up and say "hey, lets do the right thing here". I don't see any of the values in the sroty of LOTR (or any integrity or moral concern) present in this company's public dealings.
Serious PR fail. The can't get it that customers will cut you a lot of slack, if you respect them and sometimes give them something that you don't have to. "We are sorry, our mistake" goes a long way. Carefully making PR statements denying as much as they can - does not help at all.
They posted several "We are sorry, our mistake" posts.
Have you called and asked for a refund and been denied?
People, companies and marketing make mistakes. Have you never gone shopping for something advertised in an ad and when you got there there was a paper hanging by the product apologizing for the error in the ad? So they made a mistake, when it was caught they fixed it and publicly apologized.
I haven't seen one person post that bought the expansion before the wording was fixed saying they were denied a refund. If you bought it after the correction then I would expect you wouldn't get one.
Good business sense would dictate that this would not play out on a public forum but in the customer service department, case by case.
[/QUOTE] Have you called and asked for a refund and been denied?
People, companies and marketing make mistakes. Have you never gone shopping for something advertised in an ad and when you got there there was a paper hanging by the product apologizing for the error in the ad? So they made a mistake, when it was caught they fixed it and publicly apologized.
I haven't seen one person post that bought the expansion before the wording was fixed saying they were denied a refund. If you bought it after the correction then I would expect you wouldn't get one.[/QUOTE]
The ROR expansion costs $40. People, if they wish, can pay more (up to $70) to get some fluff items.
No one is forcing anyone to buy anything. Preorder, order when launched, order after launch...do not order at all. It is the customer's choice.
$40 for a major expansion does not seem as if the forces of Sauron Himself have taken over Turbine.
This debate kind of reminds me of the Lifetime preorder prior to LOTRO launch. As I remember is was $100 or $200. People were complaining about that on the forums. Indeed, I remember one thread that mocked lifer preorders.
Bottom line, again, the pricing of ROR seems mighty reasonable to me. Perhaps the real problem is people want ROR to be $5 or $10......
My question to you is why do you consider this a major expansion? Moria and Mirkwood both gave us new landmasses and new quests, moria even came with two new classes (although I don't know if that was a pre-order thing or not). Moria and Mirkwood also gave us a new raid and other smaller instances. So for this xpac which I believe is more expensive then the previous two mentioned (i may be wrong they came out a while ago) you get mounted combat and a quest pack. If paying fourty dollars for a quest pack and a horse you can fight with (in certain situations) appeals to you ok, but for the majority of us it looks like a rather large waste of money.
They posted several "We are sorry, our mistake" posts.
Have you called and asked for a refund and been denied?
People, companies and marketing make mistakes. Have you never gone shopping for something advertised in an ad and when you got there there was a paper hanging by the product apologizing for the error in the ad? So they made a mistake, when it was caught they fixed it and publicly apologized.
I haven't seen one person post that bought the expansion before the wording was fixed saying they were denied a refund. If you bought it after the correction then I would expect you wouldn't get one.
Turbine's policy has always been no refunds. Nothing Sapience said indicated otherwise. This wasn't the players fault, it was Turbines. They have not said anything about refunds, just left people chasing them. That says a lot about how they value their customers. Turbine should contact people and offer a refund, not make people chase them because of their 'mistake'.
"Come and get one in the yarbles, if ya have any yarbles, you eunuch jelly thou!" - Alex DeLarge
My biggest complaint is that Turbine is selling a service but is unwilling to discuss the features of that service. If the company is selling a non-refundable service right now, the company should be willing to discuss the features of that service right now. It's just a responsible sales practice. (It's also a practice Turbine pledged to uphold when it became an accredited member of the Better Business Bureau.)
It's not okay to take customers' money right now and tell them "later this summer" what they'll get for it, in my opinion.
Would it be okay for a roofing company to take your non-refundable money now to put a new roof on your house 3 months later, without even telling you what materials will be used? Could they get away with just saying, "It will cover your house. We'll tell you more sometime later."?
This type of selling practice isn't unique to Turbine; many other gaming companies use similar tactics. I just wish Turbine could rise above the rest of the crowd in this situation. If Turbine isn't yet willing to discuss what it's selling, it shouldn't be selling it yet.
EDIT: Well now we know - Turbine denied to give a refund to a player who bought the expansion based on false information that was in the RoR FAQ. It's official - they will not give some players a refund despite false advertising.
Originally Posted by Unique
They posted several "We are sorry, our mistake" posts. ...
Good business sense would dictate that this would not play out on a public forum but in the customer service department, case by case.
I disagree 100%. Either they can try to hush this up and not respond to all of these posts, or they can make a better statement - and admit this was a big error. Please show me the "several" apologies. If they are buried in threads they are not easy to find.
This is big enough that Turbine would be better off making a bigger public statement - telling us they will offer a refund. All I see it "this was a mistake, our website uses a cache system" and not a bit of responsibility or willingness to make up for their mistake.
You really think this is enough:
Originally Posted by Sapience
The FAQ on the CS site was partially incorrect and is being updated. The instance cluster answer in particular was based on older Rise of Isengard information and was not properly updated before going live. We apologize for any confusion this may have caused.
"We apologize for any confusion" is about as weak an apology as you can get. Where is the statement: "If you bought the expansion based on this false information, we will give you a refund."
I know this may have been an accident, and that the staff there are just human, but as a company they treat their players awfully. It is not just making mistakes that is part of being human - generosity, honesty, responsibility, integrity - these are all part of being human too. Why are the people at Turbine unwilling to demonstrate these qualities with their actions? Or is the ruling factor in their actions that they would lose some money on the refunds.
There may be many valid reasons for concern, complaints, & certainly questions, but the epic level of whining about *every game out there* makes it completely cliched, & it's hard to take the hand-wringing seriously anymore. I find I just skim the complaints, because I'd swear they're all done by a lone, super whiny gamer, who lives to post mean-spirited rants about every video game ever launched. From here on, with no proof to the contrary, I'm just going to assume that's true. (I think it's probably that South Park guy...)
I'm not sure why people have gone off the deep end *this soon.* The instance cluster isn't coming out with the expansion? Ok... I'll assume it will be out in the next update after launch (probably to cut down on glitches, which happen in the best of games, despite the Epic Whiner Guy's firm assertions otherwise.) If they try to charge me for it, as a VIP/Lifetime account, I'll join the ranting. I'd prefer to wait until after it actually happens, though.
There are plenty of games, plenty of MMOs to play, if this one offends. Of course, each one has its Whiny Gamer who will say equally bad things, so you might as well pick the world/s you like & go on with life.
Turbine is pushing the store & likes money. (They're definitely testing boundaries.) Is this somehow new or unexpected? Are they worse than other games? I see your TS & raise you a Diablo 3 auction house. (and a somewhat repetitive experience to boot.) If the mounted combat is as good as it looks, the expansion is worth it for me. Running around as a horse is enough for me, but I'm not 'quite' as picky as some appear to be.
I'm sure my thread is one of those that your directing this at.
1st. I would love to buy this expansion. I've bought all the others. Heck, I didn't even complain about RoI. But this went to far for the reasons I've stated many times.
2nd. Yeah, I hope Turbine get's dismayed. I hope they get so sad and down that they fire the entire marketing and end-game development teams.
3rd. Yeah, I expect more information. You know why? Because the only reason turbine opened pre-orders is too meet 2nd quarter financial expectations. No other reason. So, if they want my money to help them, they have to help me first.
You know it's bad when A Casual Stroll to Mordor starts hating on turbine.
Wait - you want to get people *fired* because you don't like the way the expansion was announced? Nice. That's... sane.
eta: Ok, I'm hunting all over CSTM, & I'm not seeing the hate. I'm seeing questions & some confusion, but wow - way to exaggerate!
The greatest problem not the price, if this cost 0,1$ some people willnot even pay for that coz:
-this "expansion" have a quest pack (i think free for vip's) ,and 2 mounted combat trait lines... so you can buy 2 trait lines for 40$
-but the greatest problem that no one thinks they will get that that turbine stated. They can do that. They have do that in past, why will they not do that in future? Yes they apologize.... (for their lie... and i will think apolgies are also lieing, until they arent doing anything)
-Also many people dont like the pay to win modell... and that crystal of remebrance is going on that way.
So if u are vip u go in:
Normal edition - 2 trait lines + fluffs = $40?????
Heroic edition - 2 trait lines + more fluffs +3 quest pack (what u dont need) - ok if u arent vip ths can be an option with quest pack
Legendary edition - 2 trait line + 6th bag + crystal of remembrance + A LOT FLUFF =$70????
My biggest complaint is that Turbine is selling a service but is unwilling to discuss the features of that service. If the company is selling a non-refundable service right now, the company should be willing to discuss the features of that service right now.
^^This.
I understand the point about pre-orders being a 'leap of faith'. But that should only go so far when we're talking about a company asking for my hard-earned money. If by 'leap of faith', it is meant: of course I can't possibly know if I'm going to enjoy every quest, or if I'm going to be disappointed in the artistic rendering of the landscape, before I spend money on an expansion, then that is an amount of uncertainty I would totally accept. But it is not an acceptable 'leap of faith' for Turbine to ask me for my money now and also not tell me basic factual details about what I am getting in exchange for that money (I haven't yet seen a full list of subzones or a rough estimate of number of quests--I'm sure other folks have other questions, those are just a couple of mine).
Regarding the OP's question: I won't be preordering because I don't see any preorder perks that are interesting enough for the cost. I also would like to see a lot more information on what is included in this expansion before I even spend TP on it later. I've said as much on the forums, but I don't think that's 'whining'. People have lots of different opinions on the existing info about pricing and features that has been released so far, and the forums are here to allow them to express them.
eta: Ok, I'm hunting all over CSTM, & I'm not seeing the hate. I'm seeing questions & some confusion, but wow - way to exaggerate!
Quote from the CSTM podcast -
Merric - "As time goes on we are finding out that there are things that we are used to being associated with expansions, that are being dropped, left behind or not included. I'm sorry Turbine, I've loved you Turbine, I've played your game for 5 years, I've podcasted for 3. Here' the thing, you have built a culture in your community that is based on knowing that there are going to be things going into the store/not going into the store and that you have an awful awful track record of changing things, not including things, and not giving the whole story. I understand that this may have been rushed out for E3, but it's got to the point now where I want an itemized checklist everytime an expansion or content update is announced so I can look and see what I'm getting and what I'll have to purchase later because it's getting ridiculous, ridiculous and it's just exhausting.
No hyperbole. That is an exact quote. And it continues like that, both from Merric and Goldenstar. That's not confusion, that is someone totally frustrated with the direction Turbine are going in. Much of the RoR discussion carries on along those lines, both from Merric and Goldenstar. I've followed and enjoyed the podcast for a couple of years now, enough to know when Merric and Goldenstar start laying into Turbine, something has seriously gone wrong.
"Come and get one in the yarbles, if ya have any yarbles, you eunuch jelly thou!" - Alex DeLarge
Ya - and their point is good, & right. It's also not bile-filled hate.
Maybe it would be if they had given 70$ upfront after reading from Turbine that instances would be included, only to find out a few days later they wouldn't. You can't screw your customers over then expect them to be all nicey nicey in return.
This part is the most telling "an awful awful track record of changing things, not including things, and not giving the whole story". That shows no respect for the customer, which is now biting them back.
Last edited by monteeburns; Jun 11 2012 at 06:48 PM.
"Come and get one in the yarbles, if ya have any yarbles, you eunuch jelly thou!" - Alex DeLarge
$40 isn't that much.. considering a retail release would be about $60-$70. Times may be tough but if that's the case, do you honestly expect Turbine to take sympathy and market their expansion at $20? They're a company at the end of the day, and they need to turn over a profit.
-If you pre-order the Adv Pack (before 11/14/09) then you will get SoM for free. Please note you must have paid the Lifetime subscription fee before the date of launch.
Total cost for upgrade $19.99 (plus taxes if applicable).
-If you don't want the Adv Pack, you can just buy SoM when it launches.
Total cost for upgrade $19.99 (plus taxes if applicable).
-Please note that even if the system asks you to pick a billing plan you will NOT be charged any additional subscription fees, as long as the Lifetime payment has already processed. "
You're totally right, they're a company and they need to turn a profit. However this goes both ways, if they're a company and they want to turn a profit they have to provide a quality product that people will actually buy. Charging more for an expansion than most companies charge for a new game is the equivalent of Ford charging 80,000$ for a fiesta because after all Ford is a company and needs to turn a profit...
I think what you are seeing is that a number people are interested in buying the $70 edition, they are just not thrilled with stuff like the unannounced content only labeled as exclusive Rohan content. Tell people what that will cover, clear up the other issues and you'll start seeing people buy it again. And if they don't know what that will cover then it shouldn't be on the pre-order page.
you're basically telling everyone to take their medicine (and negative feedback) and save their breath. People with years (and hundreds of dollars) invested in the game have every right to complain.
They certainly can if they want to, but it's basically pointless in the short term. I'll be beyond shocked if they decide to knock $10 off the price of the expansion due to a whine-fest on their forums. Whether or not that complaint has any "legs" will depend almost entirely on the quality and quantity of the content and features in the expansion, something we cannot really know yet. There were people complaining about Moria costing $40 too 4 years back, but you didn't hear that often after it arrived - it was a good, full-sized expansion.
As for "investing" in the game... please. You didn't "invest" in anything. It's an entertainment service. We paid, and we were entertained. It's like complaining that you don't like the new movies on HBO, and because you've "invested" in it over the past 5 years they should pay special attention to you. Nonsense. They might decide to make changes to their movie lineup in the future based on current feedback, but the current die is already cast, and how much they pay attention to this feedback will have a lot to do with how well it actually does - not on a count of complaint threads.
You tell me that multiple threads with dozens..... (eventually) hundreds - of current subscribers/VIPs (many of them here since day 1) telling Turbine they aren't buying this xpac (and the reasons why) isn't going to make a ripple in the fabric, eh?
For this expansion? No. Maybe for a future one. They're less than 3 months from release, and if you want to see epic failure... try to make major changes to a large project with under 3 months to go. If they haven't finished with all the major new features and content about a month from now, they're in big trouble. Adding instances simply doesn't happen in a month (and if it does... you'll wish they hadn't).
For this expansion? No. Maybe for a future one. They're less than 3 months from release, and if you want to see epic failure... try to make major changes to a large project with under 3 months to go. If they haven't finished with all the major new features and content about a month from now, they're in big trouble. Adding instances simply doesn't happen in a month (and if it does... you'll wish they hadn't).
Khafar
Uhm I don't think he meant that all of the people voicing there displeasure with turbine will make a difference on this expansion. I think he meant for a later expansion. Just look at what we've got from expansions. Every one has gone down in quality. I stilll really enjoyed mirkwood though and even moria despite what people said about it. The first let down for me was isengard, and it was a huge letdown (pre-ordering it). This pre order looks to be the same if not worse. If you want to pay for a quest pack and a horse that bites go ahead, but I think its a ripoff so I'm not going to buy it and I post here in the hopes that turbine will see my complaints and everyone else's, and try to make some changes.
One thing is for sure, doing nothing has a lot less chance of affecting the future than speaking up about it. Actually by not speaking up, there is a good chance that it will be taken as a green light by Turbine to push things even more next time.
I'm sure Turbine don't give a monkeys uncle about what is said on the forums, but if they have any sense they will take notice of what the press say, and CSTM and Massively have both picked up on the mood of the forums, backing up their own opinions.
The best way to ensure they don't continue down the road of less content for more money is firstly to not pre-order, and secondly to let everyone know why you're not pre-ordering. Sooner or later, if the players don't hold enough sway to persuade them to rethink, the press will. If people pre-order and say nothing, expect worse in future.
"Come and get one in the yarbles, if ya have any yarbles, you eunuch jelly thou!" - Alex DeLarge
At the very least, they should come in, in a friendly way, & assure everyone that the instance cluster will be free to all, when it arrives.
They could still speed up the otherwise worthless horse, they could alter who gets the extra bag (or alter its size for the different levels.) They could give *one* cape to the mid-range package, rather than the also useless L20 model. There are still some things they could alter.
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