Thread: Bow of Righteous Fan, how to Improve

I am a fan of Bow of Righteous, though it was never good, well shadows of Angmar it was alright. But I have suggestion that might make it worth to trait, for right now I have tried all possible setups to all possible outcomes and still cannot find a build where Righteous works.
Here is how it is set up right now:
Each shot gains 11-16 Power per successful ranged attack.
With a penetrating costing 155 power or 100 power with 4 (huntsman) blue line equipped.
Swift bow for 188 power.
Quick shot for about 40 power.
Heart seeker for about 280 power or 240 power, depending on your build.

Now those are the skills and power costs, now with that setup like that you would gain a total of
90 power back every 1000 power.
But now that is without your focus bow power cost deduction and Induction Bow power cost deduction.
Which would make bow of Righteous to a total of 130/140 power back per 1000. Which in my opinion is very
weak of power back. So I tested this out in a longer fight, and In an overall 10 minute fight you gain about 800 power back after spending 4900. Or if blue line in a 10 minute fight 5600.

Now I have a suggestion to make this worth using, and honestly it would be nice to put on because, from experience, some of the trait lines have a big power usage and even though you have pots and Loremaster (group wise) the Loremaster and the pots won't always be there. So honestly, this trait would be a break if to pull out 270/310 power per 1000, though it may seem a bit too much of a buff, still bow of righteous will still be an under used skill, but used more frequently than it is now, which the use rate per server is like 0.00000001%/100%. Or something like that, because its never really used anymore, and if people still use it than that's cool, I just think it isn't strong enough.
So after all that blabbing about the skill here is the short paragraph or points that would make this skill work with use.

~Ok first off instead of 11-16 power per shot, it should be 28-33.
~Second, for swift bow it should be used for each shot and not just as 1 ranged skill.
~Third, bow of Righteous needs to add a small Power deduction buff even if its (-5%) or (-10%)
~Finally Make it work out for its needs and try to test on it, because it really does need an improvement.

Well developers if you do fix it up I am all up for supporting the usage of Bow of Righteous again!

Thanks

Plus rep for doing the math. But of course, this isn't the only hunter skill needing scaling but being reduced to idiotic lvl 50 levels.

Yeah, it's like we are getting Levels Lite - without scaling, traits, class quests... I wonder how "Legendary" will BotR be after RoR...

Just remember, when level 50 was the cap. BotR returned 12-18 power per shot. When MoM was first released, BotR scaled with level. It was then subjected to scaling nerfs in MoM Bk7 and SoM launch.

You want BotR to give 28-33 power per shot with Quick Shot costing 40 power?

That's like -70-80% power cost to Quick Shot

With Swift Bow at 188 power, 3*28-33 will be around -50% power cost

-20-30% power cost on Penetrating shot

That is a insane amount of extra power and would completely remove the power management issues for 99% of hunters. The Devs have already specified that power management is a part of this game way back in SoM, and introduced a boss with -90% icpr aura to complement this. I highly doubt the devs would change their mind, especially not to hunters' advantage.

The only way I think devs would implement this would be to increase the power gain with BotR and increase power cost on skill with the same value.

E.g. now:
BotR: 11-13 power, Quick Shot costs 40, Swift Bow 188 and Pene Shot 155

After:
BotR: 21-23 power, Quick Shot costs 50, Swift Bow 198 and Pene Shot 165

That way BotR would be more useful without changing anything to our power management unless you dont trait it of course.

Yes. An massive effective reduction of power costs is what made the trait legendary in the first place. It has been consistently nerfed for the past several years. Even if the scaling was maintained from SoA to now, the trait would be much improved. IMO, increased power per shot is a bit much, but at least something that makes a real difference in power per skill use would be great.

The trait is quite bad as things stand currently. It used to be awesome, but was un-apologetically nerfed into the doldrums and made to taste oblivion... which tastes like Red Bull... which is disgusting.

Take into consideration first. The Developers are like most game Developers, they do the stupidest thing, which is lets nerf other skills, or change, to make this other skill fit..
And you also have to remember you are moving a legendary slot for that skill, so you need to find a build that works well, that takes away you really good trait of Improved Fleetness and Cool Burn or you can take off your press onward, Rain of Thorins, Bards arrow. So you have to make desicions to have things work out, My numbers were a little too hard to move, but I am just giving turbine a clue that where its at now its kinda ####, what it really needs to get is about 5/6 more per shot, and honestly, on crits it should do another 5/6 either way, it needs improved. Turbine hasn't really considered working on it lately because well no one uses so no one worries of it.
This skill is the class quest skill. (trait I should say)
Every class got ones I would say was In Defence of Middle Earth and To the King.
How come a hunter has to get the worst legendary skill?
Not saying the burglars one is too hot either, but either way, turbine has work to do on legendaries.

ummmmmm

just make it reduce power costs by 25%? that would keep the low power cost skills from costing no or + power and reduce the big power skills by more.

Have it return 30% power of the skill used after all reductions applied. (No, you're not getting 30% of a 190 cost skill after reducing the skill cost by 30% or more)

Have it return a small amount of Morale with each bow skill, 20-50 morale per use

Give it a +0.5% stacking crit and evade chance that applies when first entering combat and tiers up 5 times, the tier increasing every 5 seconds of combat. (That's +2.5% at 25 seconds of combat)

Hey guys, check it out, it's truly Legendary now and is not game-breaking or overpowered.

Seriously, it's not. If you actually think it is, you're an idiot.

Originally Posted by Eckenbrand

Have it return 30% power of the skill used after all reductions applied. (No, you're not getting 30% of a 190 cost skill after reducing the skill cost by 30% or more)

Have it return a small amount of Morale with each bow skill, 20-50 morale per use

Give it a +0.5% stacking crit and evade chance that applies when first entering combat and tiers up 5 times, the tier increasing every 5 seconds of combat. (That's +2.5% at 25 seconds of combat)

Hey guys, check it out, it's truly Legendary now and is not game-breaking or overpowered.

Seriously, it's not. If you actually think it is, you're an idiot.

This is a good idea.

Another possibility, though slightly more questionable, is to have bow of the righteous return 5% of the damage you do to either power or morale (or both). That would mean that with an 8k Heartseeker crit, you would return all of your power, as well as a small bonus. It would also mean that you would earn less with non-crits, which would in turn balance the amount of morale/power regeneration.

I have been suggesting something very similar to Eckenbrand's idea - small morale restore on hit - for about 6 months now.

Originally Posted by Aedfrith

I have been suggesting something very similar to Eckenbrand's idea - small morale restore on hit - for about 6 months now.

It is a good idea, but people would see it as being insanely OP even when we have no other good healing skill. It would essentially be a morale leech, which is something the devs do not look at gracefully (Although, wardens).

Or alternatively, drop or remove the power return on use, but put on a large amount of ICPR that scales with level (just having random thoughts).

Or maybe even increase the power return on crit, further increase on dev.

Or keep the power return and every time you dev or crit you get a large ICPR boost for x seconds.

There is an element of Hunters having to power manage, the problem is with spammable skills this is made all the harder. I've got around the same (maybe less) power than I had at 65 due to the increased focus on agility it's one of my main gripes.

Originally Posted by SaintBass

Yes. An massive effective reduction of power costs is what made the trait legendary in the first place. It has been consistently nerfed for the past several years. Even if the scaling was maintained from SoA to now, the trait would be much improved. IMO, increased power per shot is a bit much, but at least something that makes a real difference in power per skill use would be great.

The trait is quite bad as things stand currently. It used to be awesome, but was un-apologetically nerfed into the doldrums and made to taste oblivion... which tastes like Red Bull... which is disgusting.

The reason it has not scaled is because Turbine chose to make power management a bigger part of this game in SoM.

As much as it might have been nerfed, I dont see any good hunter legendary traits anyway, they're all ok in some situations and useless in others.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

The reason it has not scaled is because Turbine chose to make power management a bigger part of this game in SoM.

As much as it might have been nerfed, I dont see any good hunter legendary traits anyway, they're all ok in some situations and useless in others.

And that was obviously a bad decision. The class also has to deal with focus management as a DPS throttle as well. Also, just because most hunter legendary traits are pretty weak, does not justify the nerfing of a "good" trait to be somewhere south of mediocre.

Originally Posted by SaintBass

And that was obviously a bad decision. The class also has to deal with focus management as a DPS throttle as well.

Cant say I agree, having to manage power seems like a fair part of the game. If power management shouldnt be part of the game, then why bother with power at all? why not remove the power bar completely for hunters then?

Managing Focus isnt really that hard anyway.

Originally Posted by SaintBass

Also, just because most hunter legendary traits are pretty weak, does not justify the nerfing of a "good" trait to be somewhere south of mediocre.

It does. There is no reason to have a trait that is a must-have trait, then they might as well make it a passive skill and remove a legendary trait slot.
This was also the explanation for removing the old Strong Draw trait:

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Because the trait was essentially mandatory, and with it Penetrating Shot was always the correct way to spend Focus. Bringing the cost up to 3 allows us to buff Penetrating Shot and makes other Focus gated skills worth using.
Strong Draws former glory was that every Hunter, regardless of traitline or role, had to use it if they wanted to be efficient. It will never be returned to that level of potency, nor will any trait remain that potent if I can help it.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Cant say I agree, having to manage power seems like a fair part of the game. If power management shouldnt be part of the game, then why bother with power at all? why not remove the power bar completely for hunters then?

Managing Focus isnt really that hard anyway.

To say that one trait made it much easier to manage power is not to say that it removes power management from the game entirely. That's specious logic at best.

It does. There is no reason to have a trait that is a must-have trait, then they might as well make it a passive skill and remove a legendary trait slot.
This was also the explanation for removing the old Strong Draw trait:

You actually just supported my point. If all the legendary traits are bad, then they all need an improvement in their own right. That does not discount the discussion with regards to a very specific trait, one that was better in the past without being overpowered.

Originally Posted by SaintBass

To say that one trait made it much easier to manage power is not to say that it removes power management from the game entirely. That's specious logic at best.

The proposal in OP WILL remove power management completely, it's barely possible to run out of power if you got a good captain nevermind a lore-master in your fellowship.

Originally Posted by SaintBass

You actually just supported my point. If all the legendary traits are bad, then they all need an improvement in their own right. That does not discount the discussion with regards to a very specific trait, one that was better in the past without being overpowered.

I never said anything about the legendary traits being bad - because they are not. Each of them has a use without being a musthave for every situation, which is perfectly fine as they are atm.. I'm not supporting your point at all, so dont start believing so.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

The proposal in OP WILL remove power management completely, it's barely possible to run out of power if you got a good captain nevermind a lore-master in your fellowship.



I never said anything about the legendary traits being bad - because they are not. Each of them has a use without being a musthave for every situation, which is perfectly fine as they are atm.. I'm not supporting your point at all, so dont start believing so.

I never said that I supported the OPs proposal, in fact I stated that it would be a bit much. I support reversing previous nerfs to the scaling of trait.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

I dont see any good hunter legendary traits anyway, they're all ok in some situations and useless in others.

That's what I would call bad. Something that is called "legendary" but is only circumstantially useful at best and occupies slots in high demand... well, that's bad. Just because everything is equally bad, does not mean that any one thing could be improve. Unless you are arguing in one thread in favor of bad skills and traits, but then complaining about the classes DPS in another thread.

I find it very amusing that you're trying to have it both ways

Originally Posted by SaintBass

I never said that I supported the OPs proposal, in fact I stated that it would be a bit much. I support reversing previous nerfs to the scaling of trait.

Increasing it further would still make power management way too easy

Originally Posted by SaintBass

That's what I would call bad. Something that is called "legendary" but is only circumstantially useful at best and occupies slots in high demand... well, that's bad. Just because everything is equally bad, does not mean that any one thing could be improve. Unless you are arguing in one thread in favor of bad skills and traits, but then complaining about the classes DPS in another thread.

I find it very amusing that you're trying to have it both ways

Improving power regain on BotR wont help any DPS nor threat issues so whats your point?

Furthermore I'm not asking for more DPS, on the other hand I'd like to see burglars nerfed so CD and RW cant be stacked and that their Unseen set is nerfed so raids dont depend on burglar stacking.

Its pretty absurd to claim that long term DPS isn't tied to power management. Better power regen or power cost mitigation means you can use your higher DPS skills more frequently. Its no secret that those skills are your focus skills, thus shifting much of the "power management" issues over to "focus managerment" its still much the same mechanic, but its class specific. So, splitting the burden between Focus Management and Power Management but then requiring Power Management to be of the same magnitude as other classes that don't use the focus mechanic is really quite silly. It puts an undue burden on one class but not others.

Reducing that burden to more reasonable levels via a legendary trait was the solution to this issue in the SoA days.

Originally Posted by SaintBass

Its pretty absurd to claim that long term DPS isn't tied to power management. Better power regen or power cost mitigation means you can use your higher DPS skills more frequently. Its no secret that those skills are your focus skills, thus shifting much of the "power management" issues over to "focus managerment" its still much the same mechanic, but its class specific. So, splitting the burden between Focus Management and Power Management but then requiring Power Management to be of the same magnitude as other classes that don't use the focus mechanic is really quite silly. It puts an undue burden on one class but not others.

Reducing that burden to more reasonable levels via a legendary trait was the solution to this issue in the SoA days.

It's not absurd and you'll find out the day you fight with good captains. With food, power potions, Deep Concentration power heal, blade brother inspire and regular RC power heals you'll be healthy on power all the time.

There's no need for longterm DPS in ToO anyway with the only exception being last 3 phases @ Saruman and even there power is not a problem if you fight with a good raid.

But just earlier you said that Power management was intended to play a larger role in the Hunter play style and now you're saying that power's not a problem in a raid.... which clearly negates the notion that power management.

So which is it?

Originally Posted by SaintBass

But just earlier you said that Power management was intended to play a larger role in the Hunter play style and now you're saying that power's not a problem in a raid.... which clearly negates the notion that power management.

So which is it?

I said Turbine said it, and that it is most likely the reason BotR isnt scaled up.

With BotR scaled even more than it is, hunters wouldnt even need to use power book, power legacy, power potions, deep concentration nor food.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

I said Turbine said it, and that it is most likely the reason BotR isnt scaled up.

With BotR scaled even more than it is, hunters wouldnt even need to use power book, power legacy, power potions, deep concentration nor food.

Thats hyperbolle... and hyperbolle is worse than genocide.

Originally Posted by SaintBass

Thats hyperbolle... and hyperbolle is worse than genocide.

Hyperbolle is not a word. Try again.

You want BotR buffed so whatever little power management hunters have to do gets removed. It's not going to happen.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Hyperbolle is not a word. Try again.

You want BotR buffed so whatever little power management hunters have to do gets removed. It's not going to happen.

You're right, one extra 'l' completely invalidates all possible ability of a reader to extrapolate any meaning... but' if we're going to get started on typo's I really suggest you go back and re-check your own posts.

I also see you speak with great confidence in knowing Turbine's plans, so I'll be sure to defer to your infallible knowledge of the company and the disposition of the developers in the future.

Originally Posted by SaintBass

You're right, one extra 'l' completely invalidates all possible ability of a reader to extrapolate any meaning... but' if we're going to get started on typo's I really suggest you go back and re-check your own posts.

I also see you speak with great confidence in knowing Turbine's plans, so I'll be sure to defer to your infallible knowledge of the company and the disposition of the developers in the future.

There was nothing to extrapolate from that line with or without the extra 'l's. You still just want BotR buffed to the point where hunters can just stand and look on the focus bar only.

Feel free to quote my posts when they buff BotR beyond usual scaling to 85 when we go to RoR. It's not going to happen - unless they radically change the power heals from other classes, and I dont see that happening either.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

There was nothing to extrapolate from that line with or without the extra 'l's. You still just want BotR buffed to the point where hunters can just stand and look on the focus bar only.

Feel free to quote my posts when they buff BotR beyond usual scaling to 85 when we go to RoR. It's not going to happen - unless they radically change the power heals from other classes, and I dont see that happening either.

Oh, so now you're an authority on what I want for the class as well. That's quite an accomplishment. Knowing what other people want.

As things stand, there's no need to check your posts about what the Hunter gets in RoR... I don't really expect the class to get much of anything.

That's kinda the problem.

Originally Posted by SaintBass

Oh, so now you're an authority on what I want for the class as well. That's quite an accomplishment. Knowing what other people want.

As things stand, there's no need to check your posts about what the Hunter gets in RoR... I don't really expect the class to get much of anything.

That's kinda the problem.

Nope, I just read what you wrote. Hunter already got it quite easy when it comes to power management and you want it to be even easier, that brings us to the point where no power management is needed at all.

Exactly, hunters are not going to get much, and therefore BotR should be way, way down on the list of stuff where hunters need improvement. What hunters need is aggro tools.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Nope, I just read what you wrote. Hunter already got it quite easy when it comes to power management and you want it to be even easier, that brings us to the point where no power management is needed at all.

Exactly, hunters are not going to get much, and therefore BotR should be way, way down on the list of stuff where hunters need improvement. What hunters need is aggro tools.

Hunters have agro tools. They just aren't fire and forget tools that other classes employ.

Originally Posted by SaintBass

Thats hyperbolle... and hyperbolle is worse than genocide.

Sweet zombie Jesus! That's the funniest thing I've read in a long time.

Originally Posted by SaintBass

Hunters have agro tools. They just aren't fire and forget tools that other classes employ.

Indeed, and they're useless too. Which is why many hunters here want them to get improved.

Make BN a -% damage threat buff instead of perceived threat, so we can use it proactively instead of as a oh bleep skill, we'll have Improved DF for that.

Originally Posted by CWood

Sweet zombie Jesus! That's the funniest thing I've read in a long time.

I was going to say that its worse than Hitler, but usually bringing Hitler into the mix rubs people the wrong way.... but yeah.

Hyperbole is worse than Hitler.

How to improve Bow of the Righteous?

I would suggest to make it work exactly as its description says: The righteousness of your cause allows you to recover Power with each successful ranged attack.

So basically, make it return power on auto-attacks as well. After all... it's in the description.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Hyperbolle is not a word. Try again.

You want BotR buffed so whatever little power management hunters have to do gets removed. It's not going to happen.

Sure it is. Its just a really big one of these



And 90 power back on every 1000 power spent means its basically the same as a 9% blanket reduction in power use. Really, any way you structure it, be it power-on-hit, power-leech, etc., you can reduce it down to a "X% effective power reduction" form.

So the question just becomes one of balance. Is 9% too little to justify a legendary trait? What number would be enough to warrant it? And, considering all our other power management options, at what value does it become unbalanced or give us effectively infinite sustainability?

Originally Posted by droid

Sure it is. Its just a really big one of these

lolwut

Originally Posted by droid

And 90 power back on every 1000 power spent means its basically the same as a 9% blanket reduction in power use. Really, any way you structure it, be it power-on-hit, power-leech, etc., you can reduce it down to a "X% effective power reduction" form.

So the question just becomes one of balance. Is 9% too little to justify a legendary trait? What number would be enough to warrant it? And, considering all our other power management options, at what value does it become unbalanced or give us effectively infinite sustainability?

Getting 90 power back on 1000 power depends on which skills you use, Heartseeker costs like 300 power and you only get 9-13 power back when using it.

Therefore you cant really turn it into a flat % power reduction without changing the trait a lot because the % reduced depends on the skill, QS has like 25% power return while Heartseeker has like 3-4%.