Thread: Hunters aren't happy...

Originally Posted by Odin_of_Freyr

Right TL, but a champ tanking vs a guardian/warden is different.

The overarching point is this: If you and I both parse say 2200 DPS just as an example. And, whoever the tank is can only hold aggro up to 2100 DPS because they suck or whatever, one of us is going to pull aggro. With a champ, you can pass your threat and continue on at 2200 DPS. As a hunter, I have two options, I can temporarily drop it or run Endurance, which drops DPS a hefty chunk (I'd say 10% at least) just in general. Either way, I have no long-term threat reduction to sustain the same DPS as you, a champ. It doesn't matter what the DPS number is, could be 2500, 3000, whatever. On top of that, if either of us pulls aggro, your ability to stay alive once pulling is much higher than mine. We have .... well no survival skills unless you count our 4 second induction 2k heal. I don't think its much of an argument who has better survivability once pulling.

Its not a "we can't DPS" /cry. Its a "we can't manage our threat &/or survive along with DPSing" issue.

Ebbing Ire is certainly far, far better than your temporary aggro drop - I won't argue there. However, I don't think it matters that I was a Champ tank - just replace me with a Guardian who isn't as good as Shadow, Rab, or Brawli and it's the same story: if he's not as good, you probably have to hold back some.

I realize that this isn't exactly what you're saying, but I get the sense from some posters that they want to be able to put out incredible DPS regardless of how good or bad the tank is - and that just doesn't make sense to me. And then they seem to think that Ebbing Ire and HIPS are on 5s cooldowns, so Champs and Burgs never, ever have to watch their aggro - even with bad tanks - and that's just not true.

Originally Posted by Lestache

Ebbing Ire is certainly far, far better than your temporary aggro drop - I won't argue there. However, I don't think it matters that I was a Champ tank - just replace me with a Guardian who isn't as good as Shadow, Rab, or Brawli and it's the same story: if he's not as good, you probably have to hold back some.

I realize that this isn't exactly what you're saying, but I get the sense from some posters that they want to be able to put out incredible DPS regardless of how good or bad the tank is - and that just doesn't make sense to me. And then they seem to think that Ebbing Ire and HIPS are on 5s cooldowns, so Champs and Burgs never, ever have to watch their aggro - even with bad tanks - and that's just not true.

That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that Hunters are top tier DPS, Burglars are not, but if a Hunter tries to do the same DPS as a Burglar can do at Acid or Fire+Ice T2, The Hunter will take aggro and die. The Burglar on the other hand, got tools strong enough to handle that kind of DPS.

While Hunter potentially can outDPS a Burglar, our aggro tools stop us from doing that. And there's no way we can make up for the damage a Burglar gives to the raid through RW and CD WHILE doing very nice DPS and not pulling aggro.

Originally Posted by Odin_of_Freyr

Fact of the matter is, hunters can limit our threat, and we can stack good mits. We cannot do those things without sacrificing DPS to the point that other classes become better options.

TL has played with me enough to know that I can pull aggro if I really try. However, my overall DPS cannot be as high as other classes specifically because I have no options for full DPS while decreasing threat in a sustained long-term fashion. Beneath Care doesn't count.

^exactly the point I was trying to make in my last post. We're non-essential as a whole and there are always other classes out there that are better options. The differentiating factor is how well it is played, because a good hunter will always be better than a bad champ/burg/whatever, obviously.

Our single target DPS may be indispensable in some VERY specific niches (Shadow T2 mentioned earlier), but otherwise we're simply collateral.

Perhaps we should be calling for a few debuff skills for our class? The Gonathradir set already does that with the 5 piece bonus, but I'm seriously not sacrificing Faron DPS just for one debuff that's not even up half the time.

It would make sense for hunters to be a semi-debuff class, anyways. A skill like pointing out vital areas to pinpoint for a +% incoming damage debuff similar to the burg's reveal weakness would make complete sense in going along with the hunter theme. Maybe a 'target tag' kind of skill that lights up an enemy in some way to help our group focus their fire better or some kind of combat defeat response skill along the lines of skinning if it was a beast type enemy, or scavenging from a humanoid, to get food or first aid items and give yourself and the group an AOE HOT like what captains can do on defeat response.

Would definitely make the class a much more overall useful role, while still not making it some kind of crazy OP jack of all trades monster DPS class.

But, some basic SURVIVABILITY skills would be nice. You know, the kind that actually keep you from dying and allow you to be useful. Or, even better, some basic REAL threat reduction passive skills that don't cripple our DPS so much that we might as well just not be using a stance instead.

Originally Posted by Lestache

Ebbing Ire is certainly far, far better than your temporary aggro drop - I won't argue there. However, I don't think it matters that I was a Champ tank - just replace me with a Guardian who isn't as good as Shadow, Rab, or Brawli and it's the same story: if he's not as good, you probably have to hold back some.

I realize that this isn't exactly what you're saying, but I get the sense from some posters that they want to be able to put out incredible DPS regardless of how good or bad the tank is - and that just doesn't make sense to me. And then they seem to think that Ebbing Ire and HIPS are on 5s cooldowns, so Champs and Burgs never, ever have to watch their aggro - even with bad tanks - and that's just not true.

The problem is three fold:

First lets talk coffee... end game hunters can fill a 20 oz. cup with a great tank. That means we can dps right up to rim. Champs and burgs lets say have an 18 oz. cup and can sometimes go it bit over if they slurp and refill a bit before the 7-11 gal catches them.

Even with a good tank hunters can only dps to 16 oz. because of threat... and wipe/death. We have room for the extra ounces but we only have a 16 oz refillable that day. With that same tank champs and burgs can do their normal 18 oz. because they can shed threat, that is it pure and simple.... no they can't slurp that day because the new tank err cashier is on to them, but they can put out almost their entire cup full of dps without worries and out dps the hunter.

Threat management allows the other two top tier dps toons to outperform the hunter because the hunter has no active threat transfer or dump. This is what we are seeing constantly. It is all good if you have the right tank and the hunter doesn't crit or dev a bunch in a row, but we can usually out dps the other two by a slim margin. This was something our dev promised would not happen, yet this is what we are dealing with every day.

Two.... hunters and burgs have had medium armor slashed and our mits taken away; wardens got some back due to them being tanks, but that means hunters are very squishy. Champs begin with a better heavy armour so right off the bat they can take more damage if they are caught slurping... burgs can just hips out without paying for the coffee in the first place. Don't blame them, it is just the nature of the beast.

Three... bubbles, hips x2 ect.... these are things that can keep these other top dps classes alive long enough for the healers to save them and the tank to reestablish control. Hunters have nothing. We will be two or three shot at best and unless the healers are at the top of their games that night we will be looking to eat an in-combat rez. Add in the extra goodies like AOE and debuffs these classes can bring to the table without putting a major dent in their dps, then we can see that while a hunter can and will out dps them in certain situations we don't have anything else to add to the group.

Hunters to be a solid contributer to the group must be able to post better single target dps than the others, if not they are not the best option to fill the slot. Sure they can put up good numbers and do some nasty burst damage, but that has a price in wiping the group. Why risk the spot if you can get a champ or burg that adds other skills to the group without taking away their dps. Hunters can do a good job as CC, but we pay dearly in the dps department for it.

Hope that may shed some light on what we are talking about.

Tydlamir