Thread: Hunters aren't happy...

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

I know but I cant get myself to do it. Their forum is like Paradise, the only single "whine" kind of thread on the first page is "You feel as though you are being followed x 100". I'd completely ruin their peace and the happiness going on in there :]

Life is pain.


It should be shared.

Originally Posted by AdrogoAmros

Deaddove, I respect your opinions and you contribute a great deal of comment to the hunter forums. However, I feel that your threads can lack a little 'balance'. For example, the title of this thread should surely be 'Some hunters are not happy'...? You sometimes post as if democratically elected by the hunter community; remember that you are not necessarily representative of all our views.

I understand that you want responses from Turbine but I'm not sure that constantly posting threads of the same nature will achieve your goals. Just my humble thoughts. Keep caring about the class.

Dude...Your opinion of the title of this thread is a non-issue and detracts from the purpose of the thread! The title, "Hunters Aren't Happy", does not in any way imply that "All" hunters are unhappy. The term "hunters" is plural but not necessarily inclusive of all LOTRO gamers that play a hunter.

However, I will agree that we need to give more input in our threads as to what would fix the hunter class, especially where pvp is concerned. But, positive feedback threads aimed at providing the Devs with ideas have been happening for years with no positive results. The Developers are strangely silent and fail to communicate with the consumers they are hired to serve...

I have been playing a hunter for several years, am on the verge of rank 12 in the Moors, and I love to play my hunter. I am not happy with the direction the Developers are taking the hunter. Most of the hunters I know have a serious weed up their backside, and a legitimate complaint about the lack of attention the hunter gets compared to the other classes.

Ever since the first nerf on the hunter, where they took away the hunters' ability to DF while in combat in the Ettenmoors, the direction of hunter development has been extremely anemic. The only bones the Devs have thrown the hunters is a few useless bow skills that appear to be an attempt to appease the easily appeased. Now they hint at this new DF skill, that will most assuredly not be available in pvp combat situations. This appears to be further appeasement based action...Whatdaheck???

This lack of attention to the hunters leads me to the following conclusions (especially for pvp);

1. The Devs play on creepside and really hate hunters.
2. The Devs would like to eventually replace the hunters with other classes.
3. Or, the Devs just don't give a rats backside about customer satisfaction
4. Or, they are just lazy code monkeys...

This may sound like I am making this personal, but yeah...I have spent my money and time on a character that Turbine has failed to upgrade or allow it to evolve into something better...

I love my hunter but am not happy with what Turbine has decided to do...A little communication from the Developers would go a long way to alleviating this situation.

Originally Posted by Lagnaf

{SNIP}

Ever since the first nerf on the hunter, where they took away the hunters' ability to DF while in combat in the Ettenmoors

{SNIP}

Its cute that you think that this was the first Hunter Nerf.

Originally Posted by xxforcardassia

^ clearly doesn't know how to look at a character's my.lotro page.

^clearly doesn't understand a joke.

By the way, the character pages are broken, afaik. That's another complaint topic altogether.

And, by his agility listed (2053), he's probably not quite to the point of understanding exactly why hunter is broken yet anyways. So, no, clearly not enough agility yet. Our problems are more hugely emphasized once you get to be at 2300 regularly and at nearly 2500 buffed.

Originally Posted by SaintBass

Originally Posted by Lagnaf

{SNIP}

Ever since the first nerf on the hunter, where they took away the hunters' ability to DF while in combat in the Ettenmoors

{SNIP}

Its cute that you think that this was the first Hunter Nerf.

Yeah, when was that, mid-'08? Pretty sure it happened after I quit.

So what was the first big hunter nerf? RoA? Enduring Precision? Been so long I can't remember.

Originally Posted by CWood

Yeah, when was that, mid-'08? Pretty sure it happened after I quit.

So what was the first big hunter nerf? RoA? Enduring Precision? Been so long I can't remember.

Well I'm 99% sure Hail of Arrows trait once gave +25% crit chance and not crit rating, but I cant remember if it is all way back to beta.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Well I'm 99% sure Hail of Arrows trait once gave +25% crit chance and not crit rating, but I cant remember if it is all way back to beta.

That was with MoM launch. It didn't much matter since Weapon Based DPS was through the roof. All you had to do to roll an instance was load up on Champs Hunters and Burgs, throw a healer in there and it was a done deal.

The first Hunter nerf would probably be Enduring Precision, which happend in SoA bk 10... but you could probably throw in the nerf to crossbows.

http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Relea...7_%28Hunter%29

My favorite clusterf.... Concentrated Flurry of an update is still bk 7 of MoM. Just nerf after nerf after the weapon scaling had already been adjusted to account for the extreme DPS that was available to all the weapon based classes.

http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Relea...fficial#Hunter

Originally Posted by Kajil

And, by his agility listed (2053), he's probably not quite to the point of understanding exactly why hunter is broken yet anyways. So, no, clearly not enough agility yet. Our problems are more hugely emphasized once you get to be at 2300 regularly and at nearly 2500 buffed.

And you're suddenly an expert on the hunter class and what is/isn't broken? Lol, k.

(I might consider conceding the point if it was any other hunter, but honestly your sudden thoughts of being an expert hunter are too cute).

I might have been in book 9 when light oils were nerfed. They used to do a stun if they critted... it was a very nasty piece of buisness. Then df was taken from the moors... so many nerfs to other skills over time... our vaunted bow of the righteous was nerfed at least three times. Shurg we are the poster children for nerfing.

Tydalmir

Originally Posted by Tinluen

I might have been in book 9 when light oils were nerfed. They used to do a stun if they critted... it was a very nasty piece of buisness. Then df was taken from the moors... so many nerfs to other skills over time... our vaunted bow of the righteous was nerfed at least three times. Shurg we are the poster children for nerfing.

Tydalmir

That was also the bk 10 update. It was called "Month of the Hunter."

Originally Posted by Tinluen

I might have been in book 9 when light oils were nerfed. They used to do a stun if they critted... it was a very nasty piece of buisness. Then df was taken from the moors... so many nerfs to other skills over time... our vaunted bow of the righteous was nerfed at least three times. Shurg we are the poster children for nerfing.

Tydalmir

Every update has nerfed a skill here and there, so to be honest, when people saw no changes to the Hunter in any of the past updates, be grateful - it might be something like this:

Originally Posted by Some Dev

Swift Bow changes - We did our calculations, and have discovered that three arrows can not be fired within one second. Henceforth, Swift Bow will only fire two arrows in a two second animation.

Go figure.

Originally Posted by xxforcardassia

And you're suddenly an expert on the hunter class and what is/isn't broken? Lol, k.

(I might consider conceding the point if it was any other hunter, but honestly your sudden thoughts of being an expert hunter are too cute).

LOL. Wow, really? Come back and talk when you know how to not wipe a Foundry run twice after explicitly ignoring instructions.

On the other hand, what is a minstrel doing talking hunter? Maybe I'd accept some kind of criticism if you actually knew how to play the class to begin with yourself, or played it at all for that matter.

/endflame

Originally Posted by Tinluen

I might have been in book 9 when light oils were nerfed. They used to do a stun if they critted... it was a very nasty piece of buisness. Then df was taken from the moors... so many nerfs to other skills over time... our vaunted bow of the righteous was nerfed at least three times. Shurg we are the poster children for nerfing.

Tydalmir

I honestly can't thing of a single time that hunters actually got a buff to begin with. It's like I can almost recall the response to the lag issues in Rivendell back in SoA days or rubberbanding in the Evendim/Forochel transition being met with a dev response of BETTER NERF HUNTERS.

It would be nice if they listened to what the people who actually played the class said about it, instead of going off of creeps crying for nerfs or people whose only experience with grouping with them has been in pugs, as opposed to the hunters who are running endgame content and realize the issues with the class firsthand.

Originally Posted by Kajil

LOL. Wow, really? Come back and talk when you know how to not wipe a Foundry run twice after explicitly ignoring instructions.

1) This is not a discussion about a Foundry run.
2) You were not lead, you were in no position to be giving instructions.
3) We did not wipe. I did not die, but I do recall you died because you couldn't stay out of the fire. Oops. And you had called me the "r-tard" in the group, yep, thanks.

Originally Posted by Kajil

On the other hand, what is a minstrel doing talking hunter? Maybe I'd accept some kind of criticism if you actually knew how to play the class to begin with yourself, or played it at all for that matter.

Since clearly it's too hard for you to see my signature:


I know how to play my class well, thank you. My hunter is my main and the class I know the best and I don't rely on kin-hopping in hopes of finding someone to carry me through the content. I work hard to be a good hunter, to manage my own aggro, take care of myself and not force my healers or tanks to over-compensate for me.

Hunters are there to pewpew and do it silently. My belief is that we are still in a good place to do this and while some tweaks would be nice, as a whole I feel the class is still in a good position to do our job properly as long as used in the right hands.

Originally Posted by xxforcardassia

1) This is not a discussion about a Foundry run.
2) You were not lead, you were in no position to be giving instructions.
3) We did not wipe. I did not die, but I do recall you died because you couldn't stay out of the fire. Oops. And you had called me the "r-tard" in the group, yep, thanks.



Since clearly it's too hard for you to see my signature:


I know how to play my class well, thank you. My hunter is my main and the class I know the best and I don't rely on kin-hopping in hopes of finding someone to carry me through the content. I work hard to be a good hunter, to manage my own aggro, take care of myself and not force my healers or tanks to over-compensate for me.

Hunters are there to pewpew and do it silently. My belief is that we are still in a good place to do this and while some tweaks would be nice, as a whole I feel the class is still in a good position to do our job properly as long as used in the right hands.

As for your comments on the class, the issue at hand isn't typically threat management by the player (except in cases where the DPS overpowers the tank due to being outgeared/stacked on agility), but survivability. There are many points in endgame instances where the tanks can't have all the aggro or just simply can't pick it up in time, and hunters will end up taking stray hits regardless. All other classes have bubbles or some form of survival skill that makes them more difficult to harm, but hunters have DF and that's it. We don't even get an evasion buff skill, short of the racial parry skill from being an elf.

On the topic of threat management, it would be nice to have some type of aggro dump skill like burglars and champions (the 'other' two DPS classes) have. Hunters get beneath notice which drops perceived threat but does absolutely nothing for real threat. If you hit a string of crits, or even a single devastating blood arrow (mine tops out between 7-8k), and the tank is in a dip in his threat cycle, then you can easily get aggro without much effort, which is particularly an issue in T2 content where you have to be going full burn. Arguably, this could be an issue of DPS/tank cohesion, and I'm glad I have a tank that can hold the aggro off me when I'm stacked on agility, but for the everyday hunter in a PUG or running with a new/unfamiliar tank there can be problems. Yes, the hunter is supposed to adjust to the tank's ability, but it is a fine line between being crippled and actually being able to contribute real DPS as the class is supposed to be meant for when many champions and even burglars out there can out DPS the designated damage class in bursts without drawing any aggro.


-------------------^constructive content ends here^

You apparently have me confused for someone else, because the one and ONLY Foundry run I have ever done with you was one that I was leading and you were pulled in to heal on the last boss fight. You stood at 1 o'clock the entire fight after being told twice to move to 12, once getting killed by the fire and having to be in-combat rezzed by the captain, and then secondly not listening to directions again by running THROUGH the fire purposefully for 'fun', putting yourself out of line of sight of the tank and basically ousting yourself as the healer (the healer positions by the tank, not the other way around). Then you rage quite group after we wiped because you complained that your food was getting cold and got butthurt that I wasn't giggling along with you ruining my run. I also know three other people who quite clearly remember the events of that run incase you need someone to refresh your memory.

Not quite sure where the 'kin-hopping' comment came from. I've been in a grand total of three kins ever, one through a personal connection where I didn't run much anything except pug, another being recruited to lead content with new players and teach them raid etiquette, and lastly as part of the main raiding group of the kin I'm currently in. I've never been pulled through content by anyone, quite the contrary, as I find myself a lot of the time part of the core group pulling others through instead.

However, this is obviously a personal issue that, frankly, I don't care about. I'm only emphasizing that those who come in and point fingers or otherwise only try to talk down on others and fail to add anything constructive to the conversation short of 'I'd never listen to you' are only disrupting what could be otherwise intelligent discussion. In other words, don't be an ###.

/cookieforyou, you know how to be a good little hunter, now keep your personal comments to yourself.

Originally Posted by Kajil

WALL O' TEXT

You must be a confused man, I almost feel sorry for you. Regardless, this thread has been derailed enough (not that there seemed to be much on track to begin with anyway, considering the nature of the thread). Just because my thoughts can be concise and in less than a massive paragraph doesn't make them any less of a contribution to the thread.

My point still stands about hunters needing to be silent as they pewpew, a well built hunter can survive stray damage and a well controlled hunter can avoid the infamous "huntar*" aggro pulls.

Without getting into the interpersonal knife-fighting here (isn't that more Burglar style ?), just how do you go about that, xx?

I have three Hunters, two at 65 and one at 66, that I do not play at present because they have ceased to be 'fun'. Ending up nearly dead if I happen to pull three mobs is not 'fun' you see, so I went back to playing classes that aren't such hard work (my 75's are Champs and an RK).

If you know how Hunters truly can survive Raid-level damage, deal out top-whack (rather than second rate) DPS and not draw aggro then, for the sake of all that is algorithmic, please share that knowledge. Because if there is a way then why wouldn't all of us who play Hunters want to copy it?

C'mon now, how can you actually trust anyone with the forum name, For Cardassia?

What would O'Brien say about that?



Bloody Cardies, can't trust 'em.

Originally Posted by Helwryeth

If you know how Hunters truly can survive Raid-level damage, deal out top-whack (rather than second rate) DPS and not draw aggro then, for the sake of all that is algorithmic, please share that knowledge. Because if there is a way then why wouldn't all of us who play Hunters want to copy it?

Because the answer is a variant of the tired old, 'run with Super-Awesome tanks and healers with all the best gear, at the top of their game and doing everything hunters need them to do perfectly just so they can perform at the level other classes do from their own skills in any passing pug' one I expect.

And self-nerf of course.

That is sadly what I fear to be the case, aye, Kongas .

Originally Posted by xxforcardassia

My point still stands about hunters needing to be silent as they pewpew, a well built hunter can survive stray damage and a well controlled hunter can avoid the infamous "huntar*" aggro pulls.

Of course they can, but a burglar will surpass them in DPS on most of the current bosses even though Hunters are supposed to do more DPS than a burg.

95% of my questing is solo. My issue with the hunter is survivability. It's great that I have high DPS, but that does not help much when I have 3 monsters pounding on me at once. And that is the key, when FTP came in, the monster population was increased and now they are standing very close to each other. It's almost impossible to aggro one at a time anymore. Do I have the top end gear? No because I don't raid. I do have very good gear with my agility almost at 1500. Still, I do not like this basic forcing Hunter's to be glass cannons. That's fine when you fellowship and raid all the time. For solo Hunters it's not so fine. Finally, my biggest gripe with the Hunter class is the the absolute lack of communication with the Hunter developer. Either poop or get off the pot. If you can't handle the class or you don't care to, give it to somebody else who can.

I have a lvl 75 hunter and I am not unhappy, really. I remember much worse times.

I love the new stat system with uncapped agility, where I can push three and a half stats (crit, PM, evade and parry) with one single attribute and I am pretty pleased with my dps.

I see some threat problems, but you are able to deliver your max dps, if other classes know what to do (and no, they don't need to be elite...).

This is a simplified graph how it works: http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/c...7/threat-1.jpg

Without this you may not even think to do Bukot T2 challenge mode. You are able to prolong the first forced aggro phase with an additional challenge shout of a champ. As longer the first forced aggro phase, as more dps and threat a hunter and champ is able to build up (as a hunter you will unleash everything you have in this phase, burn hot, needfull haste, focus pots etc.) and as more threat a guardian will have when he announces his second forced aggro skill with threat stance up (followed by an ebbing ire of the champ).

Example: In the forced aggro phase a hunter builds up 100k threat, a guardian will have 120k threat after using CtD. As more threat the hunter builds up, as higher will be the threat leadership of the guardian afterwards (hunter's threat amount + 20%). Add to that an ebbing ire of a champ and it will be hard to catch up.

That's pure game mechanics and - in my opinion - great interdependent threat synergies.

In my eyes hunters could need:

-a real threat dumb skill not only a temporary (all other classes have one, there is no reason we shouldn't have one too). The above mechanic works great with a guardian in certain encounters, but there are encounters where this won't work (2-tank-encounters with aggro ping pong) and there are wardens around.

-hunters art should be made much more usefull and changed. Nobody will use this skill because of its long animation, its tiny effecty and the missing advantages certain sets will provide only to PS and BlA. Make it a buff like fleet stance, but with a more usefull effect as now (at least for precision stance the effect isn't the best really...)

-splitshot could be more usefull too. I use it only in skirmishes where I fire RoA with + AE targets on my melee weapon and do get NO RoA cd reset or lack focus to fire on.

-hunters need an "oh ####" skill, or at least something other that helps to survive if things become "unplanned". Burglars have one, minstrels bubble and feign death, champs bubble twice and are the secret kings of "oh ####" skills. Sorry, but our "heal" with induction time or our parry event skill with it's tiny heal (if trained on the weapon) aren't in the same league, really.

-hunters should be able to track everything in a large radius at any time. No need to feck up our traits with enhanced senses.

-and at last they could scale our camp fire better, I want to have a use of this, it's not only for roleplay, Turbine.

Maybe there should be added one or two more changes, but I am in a hurry right now.

Originally Posted by Silmahad

This is a simplified graph how it works: http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/c...7/threat-1.jpg

.

Yea. All very interesting. Shame other classes don't rely on the moon being in Uranus before they can do their thing.

Originally Posted by Kongas

Shame other classes don't rely on the moon being in Uranus.

I demand a gif to correspond with this quote!

Originally Posted by Silmahad

I have a lvl 75 hunter and I am not unhappy, really. I remember much worse times.

I love the new stat system with uncapped agility, where I can push three and a half stats (crit, PM, evade and parry) with one single attribute and I am pretty pleased with my dps.

I see some threat problems, but you are able to deliver your max dps, if other classes know what to do (and no, they don't need to be elite...).

This is a simplified graph how it works: http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/c...7/threat-1.jpg

Without this you may not even think to do Bukot T2 challenge mode. You are able to prolong the first forced aggro phase with an additional challenge shout of a champ. As longer the first forced aggro phase, as more dps and threat a hunter and champ is able to build up (as a hunter you will unleash everything you have in this phase, burn hot, needfull haste, focus pots etc.) and as more threat a guardian will have when he announces his second forced aggro skill with threat stance up (followed by an ebbing ire of the champ).

Example: In the forced aggro phase a hunter builds up 100k threat, a guardian will have 120k threat after using CtD. As more threat the hunter builds up, as higher will be the threat leadership of the guardian afterwards (hunter's threat amount + 20%). Add to that an ebbing ire of a champ and it will be hard to catch up.

That's pure game mechanics and - in my opinion - great interdependent threat synergies.

In my eyes hunters could need:

-a real threat dumb skill not only a temporary (all other classes have one, there is no reason we shouldn't have one too). The above mechanic works great with a guardian in certain encounters, but there are encounters where this won't work (2-tank-encounters with aggro ping pong) and there are wardens around.

-hunters art should be made much more usefull and changed. Nobody will use this skill because of its long animation, its tiny effecty and the missing advantages certain sets will provide only to PS and BlA. Make it a buff like fleet stance, but with a more usefull effect as now (at least for precision stance the effect isn't the best really...)

-splitshot could be more usefull too. I use it only in skirmishes where I fire RoA with + AE targets on my melee weapon and do get NO RoA cd reset or lack focus to fire on.

-hunters need an "oh ####" skill, or at least something other that helps to survive if things become "unplanned". Burglars have one, minstrels bubble and feign death, champs bubble twice and are the secret kings of "oh ####" skills. Sorry, but our "heal" with induction time or our parry event skill with it's tiny heal (if trained on the weapon) aren't in the same league, really.

-hunters should be able to track everything in a large radius at any time. No need to feck up our traits with enhanced senses.

-and at last they could scale our camp fire better, I want to have a use of this, it's not only for roleplay, Turbine.

Maybe there should be added one or two more changes, but I am in a hurry right now.

^This. Everything said in this post is truth.

We have ZERO survivability skills and are effectively the squishiest class of all since the only way we're able to do our job properly is to stack agility or else we'll be so far behind in the DPS race that our contribution to the group is pretty much nothing. Personally, I have few to no problems with threat due to having a good group to run with and despite being the highest DPS hunter, because you learn what you can and cannot do fairly quickly, but general survivability is very low due to the fact that in order to fill your role you have to sacrifice your staying power.

The only problem is that once things get out of hand and aren't going quite as planned, it's easy for the main tank to suddenly become a champion and champs can only hold aggro on something for so long, then once that challenge wears off it's off to the hunter. Hunters need something besides Beneath Notice and kiting to give themselves a little extra survival time when this happens, or even Eldar's Grace, for that matter. Maybe a HIPS-like skill or evasion buff similar to MT would make sense, since we're not exactly a 'bubble' class. Anything besides nothing would be fantastic though.

Originally Posted by Helwryeth

Without getting into the interpersonal knife-fighting here (isn't that more Burglar style ?), just how do you go about that, xx?

I have three Hunters, two at 65 and one at 66, that I do not play at present because they have ceased to be 'fun'. Ending up nearly dead if I happen to pull three mobs is not 'fun' you see, so I went back to playing classes that aren't such hard work (my 75's are Champs and an RK).

If you know how Hunters truly can survive Raid-level damage, deal out top-whack (rather than second rate) DPS and not draw aggro then, for the sake of all that is algorithmic, please share that knowledge. Because if there is a way then why wouldn't all of us who play Hunters want to copy it?

As far as advice on keeping the threat away from you, the best I can say is that at the very beginning of the fight while the tank is picking up what he needs, do not DPS at all (this should be true for every class, however, I do know quite a few champs who like to chase things around and chop away while the tank is positioning). Just stand and wait until you see his taunts and challenges come up, and even then don't DPS. Once everything has been positioned correctly, then start off slowly with barbed arrow or quick shot followed by swift bow or maybe two penetrating shots.

If you're not sure, quick shot/barbed arrow rotation with swift bow when you can is great. Focus skills are your main threat generators, they're fast, have large crit multipliers, and hit hard in general. Blood Arrow (7-9k a hit if you crit/devastate) in particular can have threat on you in a second if there's no solid aggro on what you're shooting otherwise. The amount of threat you generate is 100% based on your shot rotation, so take some time to figure out what seems to draw it on you the most and find a way to work around it.

With raid buffs up and geared for agility I can typically reach around 2,469 agility, about 32k phys mastery, and 9-10k crit rating, and I could sit and use barbed arrow, quick shot, swift bow, penetrating shot x1/blood arrow x1, quick shot, barbed arrow, swift bow, etc, in that rotation and never pull aggro, ever, despite having such high stats. Learn the way tanks work and know when you're able to use your strongest skills and then drop off when they're at dips in their threat rotation. They work the same way we do with DPS, except with threat. We have certain points in our shot rotations (focus skills and swift bow mostly) where we have potential to generate large amounts of threat, so find a way to time it so that when the tank is at the peak of his threat rotation you're at the peak of your DPS. Either have the tank call it out or discuss with them how they use their skills and find a way to work together on it.

Obviously you can't go about it like this in a PUG situation, so there you'll just have to kind of experiment to find out what you can and can't do, and sometimes the tank just might be bad, but that's alright. The group is as only as strong as it's weakest link, and if the tank is weak then it will be called out without you having to do much and any loss of aggro on his part would be understood that you just have to deal with it. Wait for your cooldown on beneath notice and use all of your big skills and buffs, hit beneath notice and turn off auto-attack, stop shooting altogether then wait a little and start DPS'ing again. When beneath notice is up again, then do it again. With luck, you won't even pull it off the tank because your burst will be so fast, even though it would be heavy. At worst, swap out some gear and put on some more vit or just something else that will lower your base amount of damage. If you have sub 2000 agility, I can almost guarantee you that you'll never pull aggro off the tank unless you're doing something crazy that would pull it anyways or if the tank is just that bad.

All above is applicable if you have a guardian as your tank, but, if you're lucky enough to have a warden as your tank, then do whatever you want because they're awesome. Wardens generate real threat with their skills (as opposed to perceived threat from Guardians) and they leech aggro off of the rest of the group, so once they get into the enemy and give the word to start DPS then it's almost impossible to pull it off.

I'm sure there are better ways to go about it, though, and if you're really that paranoid about it and are okay with limiting your DPS potential (even though that is your MAIN role in the group) then simply drop some agility and stack some vit. If you have about 1900 agility unbuffed then you should be pretty solid on not generating much threat and not pulling any aggro off the tank.

EDIT: By the way, this is applicable mostly at 75, but can be applicable throughout. You said you have lower level hunters, and I'd suggest just capping them since you're that close to trying it out at cap. Tanks are a WHOLE lot better at cap than leading up to it for one thing, and a fresh 75 hunter is very unlikely to accidentally pull much of any kind of threat. Grouping until then is pretty ridiculous and almost pointless given the game's current population, unless you can get into a sub-level 75 levelling kin that likes to run groups.

Some very good advice on close working with the Tank to coordinate Hunter aggro with Tank threat generation, Kajil.

Good emphasis on how not all shots are created equal when it comes to threat generation too :nods:.

Swapping gear mid-fight is something I have never considered, I must confess - that is an option to add to the list :tup:.

Originally Posted by Helwryeth

Some very good advice on close working with the Tank to coordinate Hunter aggro with Tank threat generation, Kajil.

Good emphasis on how not all shots are created equal when it comes to threat generation too :nods:.

Swapping gear mid-fight is something I have never considered, I must confess - that is an option to add to the list :tup:.

Swapping gear is a pretty big thing for me, frankly. I have one whole bag that consists of nothing but jewellery, weapons, and armor pieces that I can alternate when I need strengths in other areas or need to go to a more balanced build. I can raise or drop my agility nearly 400 points (if not more) either way, as well as raise my morale about 1200 points, in a matter of seconds by simply swapping out some pieces of equipment. It helps a lot when you're not sure what the situation is going to call for or if things are going differently than planned.

Originally Posted by Kongas

Because the answer is a variant of the tired old, 'run with Super-Awesome tanks and healers with all the best gear, at the top of their game and doing everything hunters need them to do perfectly just so they can perform at the level other classes do from their own skills in any passing pug' one I expect.

And self-nerf of course.

It may seem tired, but it's true.

If you want to put out really good DPS, you're going to need really good tanks. I don't know why this is a problem for people.

It's the same for other classes - if I do more DPS on my Champ than my tank can handle, I pull aggro. Of course, I'm also in heavy armor and have one of the most powerful aggro-controlling tools available, but I still pull aggro. If you want to compare survivability, your survivability comes from being up to 40 meters away from the boss, meaning that a melee-based boss might not even hit you before the tank has pulled aggro back. (And if we really want to get into a reverse measuring contest, you all get your full parry and evade in all your stances, while our DPS stance means that every single attack hits us - and btw, in a raid DPS build, our tactical mitigation is just under 50% - the same or less than yours. I digress...)

It's also the same in any team activity - you're only as good as the people around you. Put Lionel Messi on a team with 10 rec league players, and chances are he's not going to be nearly as effective as he is playing for Barcelona. Jerry Rice doesn't set all those receiving records with you or me throwing to him (unless you happen to actually be Joe Montana or Steve Young, which is unlikely). When I used to play volleyball, if I had an inexperienced setter, I had to scale back my expectations of what I could do during that particular match. Insert whatever team activity you like, it's all basically the same.

As an aside to no one in particular, it's rather amusing to see a thread in which Hunters are simultaneously complaining about their DPS being too low and also pulling aggro too often.

Originally Posted by Lestache

...If you want to compare survivability, your survivability comes from being up to 40 meters away from the boss, meaning that a melee-based boss might not even hit you before the tank has pulled aggro back. (And if we really want to get into a reverse measuring contest, you all get your full parry and evade in all your stances, while our DPS stance means that every single attack hits us - and btw, in a raid DPS build, our tactical mitigation is just under 50% - the same or less than yours. I digress...)

The most recent raids fully highlight the survivability problems of a hunter, however. Yes, we have 40 meter range, hurray.

However, both of the most recent raids have distributed damage built into their mechanics. And one of them features distributed tactical damage, which afaik, cannot be B/P/E'd anyways.

In my kin's ToO runs, we pull lightning limrafns into the group for 3k hits, in fire and frost we pull the fire/frost grims which do about 1.5k damage per hit. Saruman does massive 2-3k AOE tactical damage, which eats through the average hunter's 7k morale like candy. Draigoch's paws do a large amount of distributed damage to whoever has aggro, which is usually a hunter or champ.

Truly, these raids highlight the problems with the hunter. However, hopefully the 85 raid will have bosses where distance provides advantage, as it was in OD.

So if you really want to compare champs and hunters in such a situation, the difference truly comes down to itemization and the differences between heavy and medium armor. And champs have...two instantaneous bubbles, I believe it is, and a skill that returns morale. Hunters have two induction-based, channeled skills to return morale/power and are easily interrupted in a situation like ToO/Draigoch, as well as one melee skill that returns a minor bit of morale.

Which would you prefer?

Originally Posted by Lestache

If I do more DPS on my Champ than my tank can handle, I pull aggro. Of course, I'm also in heavy armor and have one of the most powerful aggro-controlling tools available, but I still pull aggro.

Well. Quite. If my granny had wheels she'd be a motorbike and if my hunter had heavy armour and a powerful aggro-controlling tool he'd apparently be a champ. If you threw in a healing bubble or two.

And no - we're not 40 feet metres away. We're being shouted at by the Warden to stay close so they can leech aggro and by the tank so they can grab aggro back without moving.

Give me heavy armour, a couple of healing bubbles and 'one of the most powerful aggro-controlling tools available' and I'd open a giant tin of Shut-It on myself.

Originally Posted by Lestache

As an aside to no one in particular, it's rather amusing to see a thread in which Hunters are simultaneously complaining about their DPS being too low and also pulling aggro too often.

Low dps = feature of having to pick a rotation that doesn't maximally utilize the amount of pips/power I have available to me.
pulling aggro = what happens when you choose a rotation that comes close to that rotation.

Originally Posted by Lestache

It may seem tired, but it's true.

If you want to put out really good DPS, you're going to need really good tanks. I don't know why this is a problem for people.

It is a problem because it does not apply to Burglars when doing Lightning, Acid, Shadow and Fire+Ice boss fights in ToO (and that's 4 out of 5 bossfights in there). Burglars can go full DPS from start to stop, all they need to do is to HiPS once in a while to reset their aggro, use CA or SS and then continue doing full DPS. Of course the tank cannot be a complete monkey, but Burglars require a lot less from the tank than any other class does.

Originally Posted by Lestache

It's the same for other classes - if I do more DPS on my Champ than my tank can handle, I pull aggro.

Not to Burglars. They HiPS and continue DPS like nothing happened.

Originally Posted by Lestache

Of course, I'm also in heavy armor and have one of the most powerful aggro-controlling tools available, but I still pull aggro. If you want to compare survivability, your survivability comes from being up to 40 meters away from the boss, meaning that a melee-based boss might not even hit you before the tank has pulled aggro back.

Hunters cannot stand 40m away from the boss:
First of all only the Fire+Ice boss room is actually big enough to physically do this without having to move the boss to a corner and put the hunters in the opposite corner.
Second of all Fire+Ice bosses throw boulders at people who are not standing in melee, Lightning boss has limrafns that explode with distributed damage (so you should be there to share damage from healers and you'll be oneshotted if it explodes on you alone) and Shadow room gets smaller during the fight. The mechanics of the bosses simply do not allow full range.
Third, we need to stand within 10m/25m to let the tanks leech aggro from us.

Originally Posted by Lestache

(And if we really want to get into a reverse measuring contest, you all get your full parry and evade in all your stances, while our DPS stance means that every single attack hits us - and btw, in a raid DPS build, our tactical mitigation is just under 50% - the same or less than yours. I digress...)

You could just have written "I have zero clue about Medium Armor" here. Hunters and Burglars cannot reach anything close to 50% tactical mitigation without killing their DPS completely. At best, medium armor classes can reach 35-42% without sacrificing too much agility nor relying on LM bird+R8 Captain banner. Medium armor classes need 13-14k of tactical mitigation rating to reach 50% mitigation, and since we dont have +1238 mitigation rating from Warden carvings, +1238-1800 from Shield Tactics and 2k vitality like Wardens do (and Wardens still need decent gear to cap tactical mitigation), Hunters and Burglars would need to sacrifice loads of agility gear to get anything close to 50%.

Originally Posted by Lestache

It's also the same in any team activity - you're only as good as the people around you. Put Lionel Messi on a team with 10 rec league players, and chances are he's not going to be nearly as effective as he is playing for Barcelona. Jerry Rice doesn't set all those receiving records with you or me throwing to him (unless you happen to actually be Joe Montana or Steve Young, which is unlikely). When I used to play volleyball, if I had an inexperienced setter, I had to scale back my expectations of what I could do during that particular match. Insert whatever team activity you like, it's all basically the same.

As an aside to no one in particular, it's rather amusing to see a thread in which Hunters are simultaneously complaining about their DPS being too low and also pulling aggro too often.

You're totally and completely missing the point. Hunters have been told by ZC that they are Top Tier DPS:

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

No. Burglar DPS < Hunter DPS.

Yet what I am seeing in raids is hunters doing 2-2.5k DPS and pulls aggro ~1-2 minutes into the fight and burglars doing 2.5-3k DPS without pulling aggro. Several bosses in the ToO raid are DPS races, the more DPS the better as long as you do not pull aggro. The results?

Originally Posted by MrKeks

I'm really not proud to present:

Legion der Freunde [DE-RP] Belegaer

Fire&Frost T2 CM

http://s14.directupload.net/file/d/2...bbel7f_jpg.htm

and the solution was: Burglar stacking (surprise!!!)

I hate this game...

Burglar Stacking becomes the strategy needed to kill bosses. The thing about Hunter DPS > Burglar DPS is no more. And since Hunters do not give anything in the order of what Burglars can provide in terms of debuffs (e.g. Reveal Weakness and Counter Defence), Hunters are left in the dust.

So, essentially, hunters are the single most useless class in the game. We bring less to the table than we take away from it. Any other DPS class could fill out slot in a group and do the job equally well, while contributing more to the group as a whole by either not being as squishy or having real and useful secondary functions.

We still do the strongest single-target DPS when maxed out, but the average hunter or casual player will never reach that point. This is a pretty sad point in the class development timeline.

Originally Posted by Kajil

So, essentially, hunters are the single most useless class in the game. We bring less to the table than we take away from it. Any other DPS class could fill out slot in a group and do the job equally well, while contributing more to the group as a whole by either not being as squishy or having real and useful secondary functions.

We still do the strongest single-target DPS when maxed out, but the average hunter or casual player will never reach that point. This is a pretty sad point in the class development timeline.

No. There are bosses where Hunters excel (especially Shadow for taking out adds fast and still do decent damage on boss), in Saruman the Hunter can move more freely and stay out of most AoE damage.

The problem is that Burglars do not seem replacable at the moment, you really need at least 3 of them to do Fire and Ice Challenge and Acid Challenge becomes dramatically easier as more burglars are added.

1 Hunter does about the same or more single target damage than 1 Burglar (depends on time, after 30s the Burglars Unseen buff is maximized and the Burglar will begin to do more DPS than the Hunter until the Burglar runs out of power).
5 Burglars do WAY more single target damage than 5 Hunters do.

Originally Posted by Kongas

Give me heavy armour, a couple of healing bubbles and 'one of the most powerful aggro-controlling tools available' and I'd open a giant tin of Shut-It on myself.

That's funny stuff. Gonna have to bogart that line.

Guys, go easy on Thunderloin, he doesn't have a hunter. He just likes to troll you all. Every class seems easy until you play it and play it well. I did like the comment to just go 40 meters away lol...

Fact of the matter is, hunters can limit our threat, and we can stack good mits. We cannot do those things without sacrificing DPS to the point that other classes become better options.

TL has played with me enough to know that I can pull aggro if I really try. However, my overall DPS cannot be as high as other classes specifically because I have no options for full DPS while decreasing threat in a sustained long-term fashion. Beneath Care doesn't count.

Originally Posted by Odin_of_Freyr

Guys, go easy on Thunderloin, he doesn't have a hunter. He just likes to troll you all. Every class seems easy until you play it and play it well. I did like the comment to just go 40 meters away lol...

Fact of the matter is, hunters can limit our threat, and we can stack good mits. We cannot do those things without sacrificing DPS to the point that other classes become better options.

TL has played with me enough to know that I can pull aggro if I really try. However, my overall DPS cannot be as high as other classes specifically because I have no options for full DPS while decreasing threat in a sustained long-term fashion. Beneath Care doesn't count.

Hi Sey.

Edit: I probably should have left out the survivability stuff - and nearly did - because it detracts from the main point: don't expect to be able to perform at the top of your game in a team environment if the team around you isn't as good. (I'd like to think that even you can agree with this Sey - just look at the one night we were short a tank and I tried to fill in for regular F&F T2 - suddenly you had to hold back because I'm not as good of a tank as our regular guys.)

Originally Posted by SaintBass

Life is pain.


It should be shared.

It has been shared now, on neutral ground
http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...trategy-please

Originally Posted by Lestache

Hi Sey.

Edit: I probably should have left out the survivability stuff - and nearly did - because it detracts from the main point: don't expect to be able to perform at the top of your game in a team environment if the team around you isn't as good. (I'd like to think that even you can agree with this Sey - just look at the one night we were short a tank and I tried to fill in for regular F&F T2 - suddenly you had to hold back because I'm not as good of a tank as our regular guys.)

Right TL, but a champ tanking vs a guardian/warden is different.

The overarching point is this: If you and I both parse say 2200 DPS just as an example. And, whoever the tank is can only hold aggro up to 2100 DPS because they suck or whatever, one of us is going to pull aggro. With a champ, you can pass your threat and continue on at 2200 DPS. As a hunter, I have two options, I can temporarily drop it or run Endurance, which drops DPS a hefty chunk (I'd say 10% at least) just in general. Either way, I have no long-term threat reduction to sustain the same DPS as you, a champ. It doesn't matter what the DPS number is, could be 2500, 3000, whatever. On top of that, if either of us pulls aggro, your ability to stay alive once pulling is much higher than mine. We have .... well no survival skills unless you count our 4 second induction 2k heal. I don't think its much of an argument who has better survivability once pulling.

Its not a "we can't DPS" /cry. Its a "we can't manage our threat &/or survive along with DPSing" issue.