Thread: Hunters aren't happy...

Just a piece of advice regarding aggro. It can be a pain I definitely agree, but my group has come to a solution for that.

I stand next to or near the main tank. Once I start pulling mobs, he (or she) will take the aggro from there as I run around him trying not to get smushed until aggro is his (or hers). Then I burn them down.

It works. Especially when you've got a group that communicates well. I'll also admit I tend not to go with PUG since they don't communicate well. If you do it right you can also make it hilarious. Have some fun with it.

"Raiders and PvMPers aren't happy...".


Aaaaannd people sometimes wonder why I don't do raids, and, I most certainly do NOT do PvP in games like this (this as a fanatical PvP'r for a lot of years online now).

Some people really do seem fanatically intent on a) smashing themselves repeatedly in the face with a brick; and b) discussing ad infinitum the finer nuances of smashing themselves in the face with a brick; and c) whining continuously about class X, Y, or Z, having a slightly more nuanced advantage above what is already more than adequate for them all, to smash themselves yet again, in the face with a brick.

Guess what?

Smashing yourself in the face with a brick, is really silly. If you stop doing it, you might just discover that there's a whole lot of other things to do, that are actually fun, even with classes, that are more than adequate.

Is is just me, or does it seem like there is a contingent of Hunters that are more or less demanding the capability of going full DPS without the downside of pulling agro? Having to manage your threat has always been a part of skillfully playing the class. This notion that you should just be able to open up a huge can right off the bat and suffer no repercussions is pretty asinine. I can't think of any point of the classes history where a successful raid/group hunter didn't have to ease into his/her rotation and threat generation.

This is not to say that there shouldn't be some quality of life changes for less than useful skills and traits, but this issue, this demand of more comprehensive aggro reduction as some kind of game breaker really devalues any arguments we would or could have for skills, traits and trait lines that need attention.

Originally Posted by SaintBass

Is is just me, or does it seem like there is a contingent of Hunters that are more or less demanding the capability of going full DPS without the downside of pulling agro? Having to manage your threat has always been a part of skillfully playing the class. This notion that you should just be able to open up a huge can right off the bat and suffer no repercussions is pretty asinine. I can't think of any point of the classes history where a successful raid/group hunter didn't have to ease into his/her rotation and threat generation.

This is not to say that there shouldn't be some quality of life changes for less than useful skills and traits, but this issue, this demand of more comprehensive aggro reduction as some kind of game breaker really devalues any arguments we would or could have for skills, traits and trait lines that need attention.

Nothing gets me more than a hunter complaining about aggro who is standing 30 meters away from the tank. Protip: Whirling retaliation from guards is a 10m radius. Standing within 10 meters of the guard will provide excellent aggro for him, from you. If you get aggro, drop it. You should not get aggro more than once. If you do, you're doing too much DPS, which is possible, trust me.

Originally Posted by SaintBass

Is is just me, or does it seem like there is a contingent of Hunters that are more or less demanding the capability of going full DPS without the downside of pulling agro? Having to manage your threat has always been a part of skillfully playing the class. This notion that you should just be able to open up a huge can right off the bat and suffer no repercussions is pretty asinine. I can't think of any point of the classes history where a successful raid/group hunter didn't have to ease into his/her rotation and threat generation.

This is not to say that there shouldn't be some quality of life changes for less than useful skills and traits, but this issue, this demand of more comprehensive aggro reduction as some kind of game breaker really devalues any arguments we would or could have for skills, traits and trait lines that need attention.

It is not only you, others seem to be unable to see the hunter issues as well. Lets start with some simple facts:

1. Many bosses in Tower of Orthanc are short DPS race fights (especially Acid, Fire+Frost Challenge and Shadow Challenge, they last 2-5 minutes tops), you have to do 90-100% of your maximum DPS to keep up.
2. ZC stated Hunters are top tier DPS, burglars should not do more DPS than us:

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

No. Burglar DPS < Hunter DPS.

3. Hunters have following tools to manage threat: Endurance Stance QS, Stealthy Shot trait, Threat book and then Beneath Notice for when you **** up.
Endurance Stance ruins DPS by quite a bit compared to Precision Stance
Stealthy Shot trait ruins the set bonus you'd normally get from either red or blue trait lines
Treat book is nearly useless: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...-probably-work

I'll compare Hunters to Burglars because of the statement given by ZC, that Hunters should do more DPS than Burglars.

Threat:
Guardian Viewpoint: Basically uses 2x Challenge, perhaps a Challenge the Darkness in the beginning. When these end or he loses aggro, he uses Engage and swaps to Threat Stance to build a good head start on aggro.
Burglar: Full DPS, if you get aggro you use HiPS for complete aggro reset. Problem solved as you wont catch up on aggro in the 1-4 minutes left in the fight anyway.
Hunter: 1. Full DPS, take aggro, Beneath Notice, take aggro 10 seconds later and wipe. 2. Relax on DPS, become pretty much useless in raid compared to bringing in another burglar and his Reveal Weakness and Counter Defence.

Damage:
Hunters can usually do more single target DPS
Burglars however gives the raid a +10% inc damage on boss and +6% crit chance which offsets the less DPS of the burglar himself.

On top of this we got the Burglars' Unseen armor set from the Ettenmoors. Every time he uses Surprise Strike (10s cd), he gets a +5% dev chance buff for 15s, if it is renewed another 5% is added and duration is refreshed. It goes up to 20% and can pretty much be kept up all fight in ToO.
That means a really well geared Burglar has 25% crit chance + 6% from Counter Defence and 10% dev chance + 20% dev chance from Unseen buff for a total of 61% crit/dev chance. This is way, way beyond what a hunter can achieve and helps the Burglars surpass Hunter in single target DPS by quite a bit.

End Result
We see burglar stacking being the best solution in some of the hardest fights in this game while Hunters are left in the dust. To be honest I think it is a matter of not letting Counter Defence and Reveal Weakness stack and give the Unseen set a nerf or make it Ettens only, but as this does not seem to happen anytime soon I propose hunter improvements - which probably wont happen anytime soon either.

Originally Posted by Kajil

The creep/freep balance is actually pretty decent at the moment compared to how it's been before. Freeps have the advantage in smaller numbers and creeps have an advantage in larger numbers, the way it should be, considering that freeps are already geared/skilled out when they get to the Moors, while creeps have to earn all their stuff.

But, this thread isn't about the creep/freep balance, this is about hunters.

Right. I wasn't trying to sidetrack. Just wanted to point out that the solution to our moors problem is not to nerf creeps, but rather to buff hunters somehow. Wanted to be sure someone wouldn't twist my words later

Originally Posted by Bond007

Right. I wasn't trying to sidetrack. Just wanted to point out that the solution to our moors problem is not to nerf creeps, but rather to buff hunters somehow. Wanted to be sure someone wouldn't twist my words later

All we need are two new skills:

• Aggro Skill: One that exchanges 60% of aggro to the main tank and heals some power?
• An 'Oh S**t' Skill: One that aids both PvP and PvE, a needed skill for the hunters since we are the only class that does not have one.

In my opinion, that is all we need, as for the people that say our damage is not enough, that is only because we are afraid of gaining threat (Which will happen most times) because we are the only class without a strong aggro management to compensate our high DPS levels we can achieve.

My replies in Hunter Orange.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Threat:
Guardian Viewpoint: Basically uses 2x Challenge, perhaps a Challenge the Darkness in the beginning. When these end or he loses aggro, he uses Engage and swaps to Threat Stance to build a good head start on aggro.
Burglar: Full DPS, if you get aggro you use HiPS for complete aggro reset. Problem solved as you wont catch up on aggro in the 1-4 minutes left in the fight anyway.
Hunter: 1. Full DPS, take aggro, Beneath Notice, take aggro 10 seconds later and wipe. 2. Relax on DPS, become pretty much useless in raid compared to bringing in another burglar and his Reveal Weakness and Counter Defence.

First problem with this scenario is the Guard. I take no issue with opening the fight with Challenge, I rarely do it myself, but that doesn't mean I have to criticize that choice. I do take issue with burning it when you already have aggro. I most certainly take issue with burning Challenge the Darkness early in the fight. If this is an issue, then part of the problem is the guard failing to use and land threat generating skills as well as leaching with Whirling Retaliation.

Secondly (and I'm no stranger to DPS races) is that even in a DPS race, you need to give a guard that 3-8 seconds to set-up... hit those early threat skills and get the reactive skills rolling. A good rule of thumb is the first Shield-Taunt or Bash. Just because its a DPS race isn't an excuse to forget your fundamentals and it doesn't mean you sit there and do no damage whatsoever. For a Hunter, it means you ease into your threat generation. Just because and overall DPS parse will suffer when performed only in Endurance stance isn't a reason to not use the QS threat down mechanic. At the very least you can be doing reasonable damage without all the threat that goes with it. Then, once you see that first Shield taunt fire off, switch to your preferred stance and let loose.

This is nothing new to how a Hunter plays.

Damage:
Hunters can usually do more single target DPS
Burglars however gives the raid a +10% inc damage on boss and +6% crit chance which offsets the less DPS of the burglar himself.

On top of this we got the Burglars' Unseen armor set from the Ettenmoors. Every time he uses Surprise Strike (10s cd), he gets a +5% dev chance buff for 15s, if it is renewed another 5% is added and duration is refreshed. It goes up to 20% and can pretty much be kept up all fight in ToO.
That means a really well geared Burglar has 25% crit chance + 6% from Counter Defence and 10% dev chance + 20% dev chance from Unseen buff for a total of 61% crit/dev chance. This is way, way beyond what a hunter can achieve and helps the Burglars surpass Hunter in single target DPS by quite a bit.

Now, if a comparably geared Hunter is not out DPSing a comparably geared Burglar, then there are other issues at play, but you can't expect the two classes to play the same. Hunters threat output is can be VERY spiky, and while there are certainly damages spikes with Burgs, it is designed to be efficient by easing into increased threat by setting up debuffs and lining up self buffs. The Hunter doesn't play the same, you have to artificially create the buffer that's built in. You can't open with a big hitter before the tank has even touched the mob and expect things to go smoothly.

Believe it or not, different classes hit their peak efficiency in different ways.

Originally Posted by SaintBass

My replies in Hunter Orange.
First problem with this scenario is the Guard. I take no issue with opening the fight with Challenge, I rarely do it myself, but that doesn't mean I have to criticize that choice. I do take issue with burning it when you already have aggro. I most certainly take issue with burning Challenge the Darkness early in the fight. If this is an issue, then part of the problem is the guard failing to use and land threat generating skills as well as leaching with Whirling Retaliation.

Secondly (and I'm no stranger to DPS races) is that even in a DPS race, you need to give a guard that 3-8 seconds to set-up... hit those early threat skills and get the reactive skills rolling. A good rule of thumb is the first Shield-Taunt or Bash. Just because its a DPS race isn't an excuse to forget your fundamentals and it doesn't mean you sit there and do no damage whatsoever. For a Hunter, it means you ease into your threat generation. Just because and overall DPS parse will suffer when performed only in Endurance stance isn't a reason to not use the QS threat down mechanic. At the very least you can be doing reasonable damage without all the threat that goes with it. Then, once you see that first Shield taunt fire off, switch to your preferred stance and let loose.

This is nothing new to how a Hunter plays.

Acid Challenge and Fire+Frost challenge requires the raid to ~1.5 million damage in less than 2 minutes(yaya there are other and slower tactics but they're much harder to execute), having to wait 5-8 seconds in the beginning is a complete waste of time, nevermind starting easy on DPS when you have to do an average of 12000-15000 DPS in the raid for those 2 minutes.

It is just not going to happen.

By using 2x challenge, the raid can start out with full DPS, oathbreakers and whatnot, then engage + threat stance will put the guardian well ahead on threat. After that, he can start using shield-taunt, WT and all the other aggro skills.

Originally Posted by SaintBass

Now, if a comparably geared Hunter is not out DPSing a comparably geared Burglar, then there are other issues at play, but you can't expect the two classes to play the same. Hunters threat output is can be VERY spiky, and while there are certainly damages spikes with Burgs, it is designed to be efficient by easing into increased threat by setting up debuffs and lining up self buffs. The Hunter doesn't play the same, you have to artificially create the buffer that's built in. You can't open with a big hitter before the tank has even touched the mob and expect things to go smoothly.

Believe it or not, different classes hit their peak efficiency in different ways.

You quote the bit of my post that concerned Damage and you start talking about aggro, ###?

What do you mean about comparably geared Burglars and Hunters? If you got a hunter you know how rubbish most of our available armor sets are. The Unseen set is the best burglar set for high DPS in a long, long time and if you got a good Burglar with that set and good jewelleries, fighting 1 target for 30-40 seconds or more, you'll find that Burglar does more DPS than any Hunter, especially if the burglar is allowed to do Positional Damage.
Since very most bossfights in ToO T2 is 1 target for 2-5 minutes, this gives Burglars a huge advantage, and on top of that they supply 6% inc crit chance and 10% inc dmg on boss to help the raid do more damage.
At the same time they have -% threat in their DPS stance, they can reset their aggro twice through HiPS and Ready and Able + HiPS.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

By using 2x challenge, the raid can start out with full DPS, oathbreakers and whatnot, then engage + threat stance will put the guardian well ahead on threat. After that, he can start using shield-taunt, WT and all the other aggro skills.

Challenge is 10-13 seconds of a force taunt that does not build aggro. What the hell is the Guardian doing durring those ten seconds if he can't start dropping reactive skills until after engage?

Originally Posted by SaintBass

Challenge is 10-13 seconds of a force taunt that does not build aggro. What the hell is the Guardian doing durring those ten seconds if he can't start dropping reactive skills until after engage?

I dont know and tbh I dont care - when I'm on my burglar that is.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

I dont know and tbh I dont care - when I'm on my burglar that is.

Well, you should probably be concerned. Its probably a big part of the problem you're having.

Originally Posted by SaintBass

Well, you should probably be concerned. Its probably a big part of the problem you're having.

It's not. I do less aggro and add more DPS to the raid on my rubbish burglar than on my hunter so its a simple yet sad choice.

I dont see why the guardian should do much before his Engage anyway.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

It's not. I do less aggro and add more DPS to the raid on my rubbish burglar than on my hunter so its a simple yet sad choice.

I dont see why the guardian should do much before his Engage anyway.

He shouldn't have to use engage if the group is on top of things. If he's building his own threat, using threat stance to boost that output and leaching threat on top of an ebbing Ire and the occasional provoke, then I fail to see where the problem is.

I've long been a supporter of a Hunter Skill that would transfer a small percentage of the Hunter's threat to a marked fellowship member to help with building early agro, but to ignore similar skills held by other classes is a mistake. Its also a mistake to think that the Hunters have the same built in ramp-up of DPS... they do not, they are not designed for a gradual increase in DPS but for A LOT of front-loaded damage. The player actually has to play differently (play to the game situation, not the DPS meter) to overcome that issue. It requires starting in endurance stance, getting your bleeds rolling, and attempting to be somewhat threat neutral in the very early portion of the fight, and then switching to Precision (for great focus) and dropping real damage and generating threat more intensively.

Originally Posted by SaintBass

He shouldn't have to use engage if the group is on top of things. If he's building his own threat, using threat stance to boost that output and leaching threat on top of an ebbing Ire and the occasional provoke, then I fail to see where the problem is.

I've long been a supporter of a Hunter Skill that would transfer a small percentage of the Hunter's threat to a marked fellowship member to help with building early agro, but to ignore similar skills held by other classes is a mistake. Its also a mistake to think that the Hunters have the same built in ramp-up of DPS... they do not, they are not designed for a gradual increase in DPS but for A LOT of front-loaded damage. The player actually has to play differently (play to the game situation, not the DPS meter) to overcome that issue. It requires starting in endurance stance, getting your bleeds rolling, and attempting to be somewhat threat neutral in the very early portion of the fight, and then switching to Precision (for great focus) and dropping real damage and generating threat more intensively.

You really dont get it do you?

Stack burglars, let tank do Challenge x2 then Engage = EPIC DPS, no aggro problems

Why would raid leaders choose a different strategy?

Having to go low on DPS in the beginning just to let guardian build aggro is a complete waste of time, time that could be used on DPSing.

Why should I bother going in Endurance stance on a hunter when I can go full out on a burglar, doing more DPS, helping the raid do more DPS, and still not grab aggro?

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

You really dont get it do you?

Stack burglars, let tank do Challenge x2 then Engage = EPIC DPS, no aggro problems

Why would raid leaders choose a different strategy?

Having to go low on DPS in the beginning just to let guardian build aggro is a complete waste of time, time that could be used on DPSing.

Why should I bother going in Endurance stance on a hunter when I can go full out on a burglar, doing more DPS, helping the raid do more DPS, and still not grab aggro?

I get the whole "DPS LIKE CRAZY DURING CHALLENGE... the the Guard agro copies the threat that was generated." That's not a new trick. I am a little curious about why you have it listed as "Challenge x2" though. I assume you mean guard waits until his second challenge is about to expire before hitting engage. So, what happens durring that 17-20 seconds where there's no force taunt up? Its just an agro free for all? You're bringing two guards?

And, if this strategy is so bulletproof and Hunters have an agro problem, why doesn't this strategy eliminate this issue?

Originally Posted by SaintBass

I get the whole "DPS LIKE CRAZY DURING CHALLENGE... the the Guard agro copies the threat that was generated." That's not a new trick. I am a little curious about why you have it listed as "Challenge x2" though. I assume you mean guard waits until his second challenge is about to expire before hitting engage. So, what happens durring that 17-20 seconds where there's no force taunt up? Its just an agro free for all? You're bringing two guards?

And, if this strategy is so bulletproof and Hunters have an agro problem, why doesn't this strategy eliminate this issue?

Because burglars have a perma -10% threat, plus HIPS, plus an additional HIPS if needed by ready and able, plus hobbit flop if they're a hobbit?

Hunters have... beneath notice! The ultimate fail aggro control skill, because it doesn't even control aggro.

Originally Posted by SaintBass

I get the whole "DPS LIKE CRAZY DURING CHALLENGE... the the Guard agro copies the threat that was generated." That's not a new trick. I am a little curious about why you have it listed as "Challenge x2" though. I assume you mean guard waits until his second challenge is about to expire before hitting engage. So, what happens durring that 17-20 seconds where there's no force taunt up? Its just an agro free for all? You're bringing two guards?

And, if this strategy is so bulletproof and Hunters have an agro problem, why doesn't this strategy eliminate this issue?

I was told the guardian does 2 force taunts somehow (tank has aggro for 20-30 seconds even though we put 2 oathbreakers on the boss, thats all I need to know really), then engage at the end. After engage, the champ (if any) ebbs and aggro is solid from that point - unless there's a hunter in the raid. The hunter usually grabs aggro after 40-55 seconds, dies and perhaps wipes the raid.

As Bond says, at that point where hunters would grab aggro, Burglars enjoy -10% threat even if they do same DPS. When the burglar feels he's getting close to grabbing aggro, pop HiPS and continue DPS and it's all good. Hunters got nothing of that sort to reset aggro and if they relax just the tiniest bit on DPS, a burglar will easily outdo them in DPS.

Originally Posted by Bond007

Hunters have... beneath notice! The ultimate fail aggro control skill, because it doesn't even control aggro.

For Beneath Notice to "work" you actually have to switch stances and spam some Quick Shot. For you to not need Beneath Notice in the first place, you need to ease into your damage rotation and not open with huge hits.

That said, yes, there is certainly something lacking here, but lets not make it out like the class is broken because of game mechanics that have existed since day one. Hell, I remember when Hunters would get kicked from raids for not using S:E ALL THE TIME.

Some of these problems are an issue with the class. There are only so many skills that are actually useful and get deployed in any given fight. On the other hand, if there is a Hunter and only a Hunter pulling agro off the tank, then that's a PEBKAC situation... not a problem with the class. If EVERYONE is pulling aggro off the tank, then thats an issue with that player, not the class. If everyone is pulling agro off of every tank then thats a problem with the class. If every hunter is struggling to out-DPS their friendly neighboorhood burg and pulling agro, then yes, there are problems with the class, but I have yet to see anyone post any proof of such an issue.

I just wanted to let everyone know I am a really happy hunter. Like really, really happy.

Obviously, you got into the special brownies again. They're pretty awesome.

mmmmm brownies....

Originally Posted by zalladi

All we need are two new skills:

• Aggro Skill: One that exchanges 60% of aggro to the main tank and heals some power?
• An 'Oh S**t' Skill: One that aids both PvP and PvE, a needed skill for the hunters since we are the only class that does not have one.

In my opinion, that is all we need, as for the people that say our damage is not enough, that is only because we are afraid of gaining threat (Which will happen most times) because we are the only class without a strong aggro management to compensate our high DPS levels we can achieve.

Agreed. Those are our two most glaring issues. There are others, like the useless traits/traitlines and messed up skills, but first and foremost, hunters need more ability to manage aggro (as we are THE designated DPS class, yet they didn't feel like providing us with any ability to counteract the threat we generate filling our role, it's like designed a car for drag racing and forgetting to place a safety harness on the driver's seat) and an 'Oh shi-' skill to fill the hole that we have opposed to all other classes.

Originally Posted by SaintBass

For Beneath Notice to "work" you actually have to switch stances and spam some Quick Shot. For you to not need Beneath Notice in the first place, you need to ease into your damage rotation and not open with huge hits.
.

1. S:E QS does not lower your threat enough, if you crit it still builds threat, you can easily end up having aggro on the boss after BN even if you only spam QS unless the tank does something to help it - if he doesnt get a reactive or has a cooldown to burn, you
2. swapping to S:E QS will lower your DPS, and then the burglar will do even a lot more DPS than you do.

Originally Posted by SaintBass

If every hunter is struggling to out-DPS their friendly neighboorhood burg and pulling agro, then yes, there are problems with the class, but I have yet to see anyone post any proof of such an issue.

Proof? Take a look at the Orthanc Raid Progression thread, you will find plenty of runs with many burglars or where taking in burglars would have made it easier, e.g.


They did it in 4 minutes and some, meaning they had to take care of 2-3 add phases and 2 phases with acid water.

Now watch what happens when more burglars are added to the mix:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LXAs4jlmbM

Now its done in half the time and with much of the strategy of this fight removed. My own kinship did this with 2 captains, 1 tank, 2 healers and 7 burglars and we killed him in ~1 minute and 10 so we barely had to take care of adds at all. That was even before the introduction of the Unseen set, I can see raids doing this boss in under a minute now with 7 well geared burglars. Hunters cannot do anything of this magnitude, even if the burglar RW and CD didnt stack I'm absolutely adamant 7 good burglars in Unseen set would kill that boss faster than any 7 hunters can.

The same goes for Fire and Frost Challenge, without burglar stacking we're talking a 5-15 minute fight with very very high requirements to DPS, corruption removal and handling of adds. With burglar stacking it can be done in ~2 minutes - and the only ones who has done this boss so far is through the use of minimum 3-4 burglars. As you need 2 healers, 2 captains, 2 tank and a LM, bringing 3-4 burglars in a total of 5 DPS slots is quite a lot.
7 kinships who have done Fire and Frost Challenge and posted in progression thread so far:

http://s7.directupload.net/images/120531/mynge6q4.jpg
http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/7384/giants1.jpg
http://s14.directupload.net/images/120525/7tbbel7f.jpg
http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/4...shot00067k.jpg
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/463...nshot04434.jpg
http://i1168.photobucket.com/albums/...nShot00089.jpg
http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/4200/firefrostcm.png

Total amount of burglars: 24
Total amount of champions: 5
Total amount of hunters: 3
Total amount of runekeepers: 4

If hunters are supposed to be Top Tier DPS, then why are we seeing this? Because Burglars are better DPS than Hunters for several bosses in the current raid. Each Burglar makes the fight a lot shorter than a Hunter in his stead would. And they do that while having more efficient aggro tools than Hunters, as they can reset their aggro completely 2 times during a bossfight.

Hunters need more efficient aggro tools and Burglars need their debuffs to not stack or not stack as effectively as they do now.

lol...dont complain about lack of DPS cause at that spot hunters are OP just as every other freep class....If you want to hit for 20k over & over you should try WoW. RKs & burgs cant out-dps a good hunter.

Originally Posted by Witch0King

lol...dont complain about lack of DPS cause at that spot hunters are OP just as every other freep class....If you want to hit for 20k over & over you should try WoW. RKs & burgs cant out-dps a good hunter.

I'm not talking about a lack of DPS on behalf of hunters, I'm saying that Burglars are doing too much DPS, basically ruining some of the bossfights of this game. I'm against that Reveal Weakness and Counter Defence stacks and that the Burglar can achieve more or less permanent 30% devastating chance.

I'm talking about hunters lack comparable aggro management tools.

None of this will have a negative impact for creps in Ettens, so take your crep propaganda elsewhere plx.

Originally Posted by Witch0King

lol...dont complain about lack of DPS cause at that spot hunters are OP just as every other freep class....If you want to hit for 20k over & over you should try WoW. RKs & burgs cant out-dps a good hunter.

How are we asking for more dps?
Fact: Burglar dps is OP right now. Much, much higher than the supposedly "top tier" class of the hunter, although devs have explicitly stated that hunters should be doing more dps than burgs
Fact: Hunter aggro management is nothing like a burg's; we pull aggro while still remaining behind them. (irony)
Solution: 1) Give hunters a better aggro management skill to catch up to a burg as it stands now in ST dps (we have a million and one suggestions for these on these forums). 2) Nerf burgs' dps. Simple. They are taking a spot they never were supposed to be able to do, with debuffs and a capable mez (or multiple if your smart burg has OD set) thrown in too. A burg's dps should be higher than an LM's but lower than a hunter's, I think somewhere just below a current champ would be suitable. 3) Adjust the raid mechanics to match this sudden overall drop in dps potential. True, you don't NEED burgs to complete ToO, but of my kin could only complete acid t2 challenge after another burg was added to our regular raid group, it's obvious one class is dominating raiding atm, and I don't see how anyone can find that right. Of course, these key changes would have to come with RoR, since Isen is pretty set in stone for now. I'm not holding my breath, but something better happen. Been like this for too long

So, lemme get this strait. Your position is "Hunters are Fine, Burglars are OP" and you are complaining about this in the Hunter forums.

Originally Posted by SaintBass

So, lemme get this strait. Your position is "Hunters are Fine, Burglars are OP" and you are complaining about this in the Hunter forums.

Nope, neither are fine, both need some fixes. Hunters need minor buffs especially in aggro areas and more useful armor sets, Burglars need nerf in stacking of debuffs and the unseen armor set.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Nope, neither are fine, both need some fixes. Hunters need minor buffs especially in aggro areas and more useful armor sets, Burglars need nerf in stacking of debuffs and the unseen armor set.

This.

Thanks for trying to utterly twist my words SaintBass -_-

Yeah, that's not gonna happen. XD

Originally Posted by SaintBass

Yeah, that's not gonna happen. XD

Of course its not. That's why this thread is here in the first place.

Improved Focus - message from dev "do your most damage in first 5 seconds of battle, tanks will have to figure out how to get/hold aggro"

Before combat, you may rapidly increase your Focus as well as your critical hit chance and damage. Focus is required to use some bow skills and is lost if you move.
Applied on removal:
+25% Ranged Critical Chance
+25% Bow Critical Multiplier
Duration: 5s

I hate hunters. Why am I one.

"I SHOULD BE ABLE TO HIT A 15K HEARTSEEKER IN THE FIRST 30 SECONDS AND NOT GET AGGRO!"

What are you? A gorilla? Chill. Calm the DPS rage for a second, let the red haze go away and come up with a raid strategy that does not involve doing Two Billion DPS. Its possible. Use a threat book, and if necessary, slot the -10% aggro trait.

I've even had a hunter tell me clearing poisons lowers his DPS. Seriously. We are a DPS class, not a raging baboon with a bow.

Originally Posted by Stanimir

I hate hunters. Why am I one.

"I SHOULD BE ABLE TO HIT A 15K HEARTSEEKER IN THE FIRST 30 SECONDS AND NOT GET AGGRO!"

What are you? A gorilla? Chill. Calm the DPS rage for a second, let the red haze go away and come up with a raid strategy that does not involve doing Two Billion DPS. Its possible. Use a threat book, and if necessary, slot the -10% aggro trait.

I've even had a hunter tell me clearing poisons lowers his DPS. Seriously. We are a DPS class, not a raging baboon with a bow.

^clearly doesn't have enough agility.

Originally Posted by Stanimir

I hate hunters. Why am I one.

"I SHOULD BE ABLE TO HIT A 15K HEARTSEEKER IN THE FIRST 30 SECONDS AND NOT GET AGGRO!"

What are you? A gorilla? Chill. Calm the DPS rage for a second, let the red haze go away and come up with a raid strategy that does not involve doing Two Billion DPS. Its possible. Use a threat book, and if necessary, slot the -10% aggro trait.

I've even had a hunter tell me clearing poisons lowers his DPS. Seriously. We are a DPS class, not a raging baboon with a bow.

Right. So let's let the "debuffing class" pass us up. Lolzoinks. Not only are we gorillas, but slow ones too apparently

I always considered it bad form to call for nerfs of another class outside of that classes forum.

Probably because I've seen it done so much with regards to classes I play.

Originally Posted by SaintBass

I always considered it bad form to call for nerfs of another class outside of that classes forum.

Probably because I've seen it done so much with regards to classes I play.

I know but I cant get myself to do it. Their forum is like Paradise, the only single "whine" kind of thread on the first page is "You feel as though you are being followed x 100". I'd completely ruin their peace and the happiness going on in there :]

Originally Posted by Kajil

^clearly doesn't have enough agility.

^ clearly doesn't know how to look at a character's my.lotro page.