Thread: Turbine: Read this if you want to make your customers happy!

/signed I completely with this post.

/signed.

I want to pre-order because I can afford it, but just won't. I don't want to reward Turbine for the stupid decisions they have made that are only looking at the bottom line and rewarding shareholders and not at the long term best interest of the game. I too am worried this version of LOTRO will never see Mordor due to a declining user base which I don't want to be one of.

/signed

I'm not spending any more cash on this game until Turbine corrects the course of what looks like a ship of fools right now.
Besides, I have plenty of alts to level to 75...

/signed

Not buying until I have more information and considering uninstalling a game I have played four plus years

For the OP's suggestions, I only agree on #2. TPs should have been included for $70, a really high price for an expansion.

And I say this as a Legendary Edition buyer. I got it mostly because I had leftover Christmas money. But otherwise, I wouldn't have bought it unless there were TPs included in the Legendary Edition (at least).

Nevertheless, I do sympathize with Turbine, because they are really making RoR work. It's the most ambitious expansion and by reports, well worth the investment. And I would agree with Turbine's pricing - they just failed to include a couple more bonuses, like quest packs and TPs in the Legendary Edition.

The marketing department failed this time.

Originally Posted by ScotFerre

Nevertheless, I do sympathize with Turbine, because they are really making RoR work. It's the most ambitious expansion and by reports, well worth the investment.

What are you basing this on? We have no information at all about the expansion, all they gave us to justify the huge price is a video of 3 models riding horses around an empty, wide open demo zone and an even lamer commercial with aussie style rohirrim...

Originally Posted by dannypl

What are you basing this on? We have no information at all about the expansion, all they gave us to justify the huge price is a video of 3 models riding horses around an empty, wide open demo zone and an even lamer commercial with aussie style rohirrim...

Can I ask you the same question? What are you basing 40-70$ is not worth it? Since the lack of information how can you know it's not worth it?
So as I said before, before we have more information there is now way anyone can say it's not worth it becouse we don't know.
But it feels like Turbine has began to sell Pre-Orders of something that is far from done (I don't like it), I actually hope they can justify their price on the game.
I bought 70$ expac because I wan't to continue this adventure, but for those who hasitate I can just advice you to wait and see, and if you can't... Leave the game and come back later fanboys like me will keep this game alive.

Originally Posted by dannypl

What are you basing this on? We have no information at all about the expansion, all they gave us to justify the huge price is a video of 3 models riding horses around an empty, wide open demo zone and an even lamer commercial with aussie style rohirrim...

Going by these reports -

http://cstm.mymiddleearth.com/2012/0...ounted-combat/

http://www.tentonhammer.com/lotro/ri...utm_medium=rss

http://cstm.mymiddleearth.com/2012/0...-from-e3-2012/

And from somewhere - "Riders of Rohan is our biggest expansion yet, and raises the bar technically and artistically much like Mines of Moria did in 2008. We’re introducing the largest area we’ve ever built and a combat system unlike anything that has been built before in MMOs,” said Kate Paiz, Executive Producer of The Lord of the Rings Online, Turbine. “We’re excited for players to be able to continue the epic story as players immerse themselves in Rohirrim culture and support King Théoden himself as they strive to keep the eyes of Mordor distracted from the Ringbearer’s task."

And -

"Explore Largest Landscape Yet!
Nearly three times as large as Moria! Join with the Rohirrim and ride across the sprawling Eastern Plains of Rohan. Raise high your sword to fight for honor and glory in the name of Théoden King! Experience hundreds of new quests, earn new favor, gear, deeds and more!"

The sheer size of this expansion is totally irrelevant. The Dunland area is larger than Moria as well, but 90% of it is simply DEAD once you glide through it on quest rails. There is no reason at all to go back anywhere else besides Galtrev or the ox-clan camp, unless you really want to do those dailies in Isengard and the pit of iron, finish some deeds or farm resources. The olden zones at least had the shard-dropping/personally challenging named mobs.

The size of a content says nothing about the gameplay. And mounted combat may be an ambitious idea, but we´ve still have to see it actually work - or get any glimpse on it, for that matter.

Originally Posted by Vandervahn

The sheer size of this expansion is totally irrelevant. The Dunland area is larger than Moria as well, but 90% of it is simply DEAD once you glide through it on quest rails. There is no reason at all to go back anywhere else besides Galtrev or the ox-clan camp, unless you really want to do those dailies in Isengard and the pit of iron, finish some deeds or farm resources. The olden zones at least had the shard-dropping/personally challenging named mobs.

The size of a content says nothing about the gameplay. And mounted combat may be an ambitious idea, but we´ve still have to see it actually work - or get any glimpse on it, for that matter.

As I said, I'm not really one for end-game content. Hence my agreeing with #2 in the OP's post.

I would think most of the pre-purchases (both now and in the past) are basically knee-jerk reactions.
Like, well yeah I plan to keep playing, so buying the xpac is a no-brainer. Just the fact that lots of people are now contemplating something that used to be a given....is telling.

Even if the forums consist of only a small percentage of the player base (which I'm not sure that's the case - at least half the active members in my kin use the forums to some degree), I've never seen the amount of fed-up we're seeing now.

A kinmate put the whole $70 package in perspective (for me anyway) last night - while talking about paying $30 extra to basically get a 6th bag (face it, the rest of the fluff will not endure), he noted that he just bought a backpack for $12. And it holds real stuff, right.

I have no need to jump on this because I don't care about anything they're offering aside from maybe the quests to get me to 85 - if I keep playing. I've made do with 5 bags for over 5 years. A 6th bag means nothing to me. A power crystal that will essentially allow me to carry an extra stat legacy on my LI means very little. The rest isn't even worth considering to me.

The ONLY way you can make an impact is by NOT pre-ordering RoR. Turbine pretty much makes all their decisions by data mining. If you buy it and regret it - or buy it and don't like it - it doesn't matter to them. You already bought it. Our words mean very little. Our (in)actions mean a whole lot.

Problem is, nothing is going to change. Turbine does not change for the benefit of their "fans", which I find so hypocritical. They will milk and bleed this thing dry and there will still be people giving them money until the very end. They will use their LotRO experience to find people's limits and this will dictate how they play their customers in the next Turbine venture. That's about the best use the greedy suits can make of a 5-year old MMO.

I don't see much of the revenue since f2p going back into the game. Lots of updates but where is the quality. WB can't gobble it all up.

Originally Posted by The_Legacy

Can I ask you the same question? What are you basing 40-70$ is not worth it? Since the lack of information how can you know it's not worth it?

Maybe based on their track record? I have been in the SOM and ROI beta's, at this late date they will not be adding some new feature that will magically make everything worthwhile...What you see is really what you will get. It's just my opinion, based on what little information we have that 70$ for the expansion plus the amount they will charge for the instance cluster is ludicrous.

Originally Posted by ScotFerre

Going by these reports -

http://cstm.mymiddleearth.com/2012/0...ounted-combat/

http://www.tentonhammer.com/lotro/ri...utm_medium=rss

http://cstm.mymiddleearth.com/2012/0...-from-e3-2012/

And from somewhere - "Riders of Rohan is our biggest expansion yet, and raises the bar technically and artistically much like Mines of Moria did in 2008. We’re introducing the largest area we’ve ever built and a combat system unlike anything that has been built before in MMOs,” said Kate Paiz, Executive Producer of The Lord of the Rings Online, Turbine. “We’re excited for players to be able to continue the epic story as players immerse themselves in Rohirrim culture and support King Théoden himself as they strive to keep the eyes of Mordor distracted from the Ringbearer’s task."

And -

"Explore Largest Landscape Yet!
Nearly three times as large as Moria! Join with the Rohirrim and ride across the sprawling Eastern Plains of Rohan. Raise high your sword to fight for honor and glory in the name of Théoden King! Experience hundreds of new quests, earn new favor, gear, deeds and more!"

I know you can categorize me as a naysayer but all your quotes and links just prove my point: all we have is vague and many cases misleading information. In your last quote it says "Nearly three times as large as Moria!". On the official website it says "Discover LOTRO's largest landscape yet – nearly twice as large as Moria! Join with the Rohirrim and ride across the sprawling plains of Eastern Rohan."... So which is it, twice or three times? Again this is information that would be nice to know about. As others have mentioned how are they calculating it? does that mean we will have twice as many quests as moria or does it mean the actual area is twice as large with as many quests as moria?

Originally Posted by Vandervahn

The sheer size of this expansion is totally irrelevant. The Dunland area is larger than Moria as well, but 90% of it is simply DEAD once you glide through it on quest rails. There is no reason at all to go back anywhere else besides Galtrev or the ox-clan camp, unless you really want to do those dailies in Isengard and the pit of iron, finish some deeds or farm resources. The olden zones at least had the shard-dropping/personally challenging named mobs.

The size of a content says nothing about the gameplay. And mounted combat may be an ambitious idea, but we´ve still have to see it actually work - or get any glimpse on it, for that matter.

The AREA is bigger because of the fact that Warsteeds will have 300% speed, and would otherwise allow passing through the entire map in a few seconds if it was the size of The Shire.

As for Dunland, you do it once; and never again (unless you bring up another alt).
Pretty much the same with most of the "awesome" contents Turbine has released lately.

Originally Posted by Vandervahn

I appreciate all this actionism, but in the end, the only real 1-2-punch we as customers can deliver is to abstain from the pre-purchase. I´m not saying: "dont buy the thing". But consider abstaining from it until you are wholly convinced. We have time until the 5th of September to prepurchase with all boni.

Not pre-purchasing is the only way to guarantee that someone with "Producer" on their business card will have to explain to their higher-ups why RoR is raking in so much less revenue than RoI did during the summer. The only way to guarantee a blow close to home, not something that is distributed somewhere among the project managers and underlings.

Agreed. The second quarter ends at the end of June. My assumption is the expansion preorder was announced at the beginning of June to get a bump in revenues before the end of the quarter. The only way we can get the higher-ups attention is by not preordering and not giving them that bump in revenue.

Yup. Yup. And Yup. I bought Isengard when my highest level toon was only level 45. I've only just gotten into Isengard this month - but I was eager to have the extras and have the expansion when I got there.

Not this time.

If Turbine needs reminding what a player protest can achieve then they should read this.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...crisis-article

Lovely quote from the article:

"A driving factor in the success of Eve Online has been the trust that binds a developer's uncompromising vision to an audience desperate for a unique and compelling experience. An explicit acknowledgement that the developer sees that audience as "a golden goose" has damaged that relationship."

Sign me up on the list!

Originally Posted by The_Legacy

What confuses me is that people are complaining at the lack of information but still you say that 70$ isn't worth it...? How do you know if you don't get enough information?

Because, no matter how much information comes out, there is no way a single expansion with all of its components (which requires the $70 option) is worth more than an entire game. I paid $60 for all of GW2, and unless Turbine comes out and tells us that there will be more content than an entire game, plus a completely overhauled PvP experience, how on earth can anyone justify a $10 increase in price?

/signed.. i dont think they will hear this or do something but let's try.

And also /sign me up. This game has a very different community. We're not some fools who will blindly pay $70 for an xpac. Since, this quarter ends up in June (I think), maybe they raised the price, so they could improve the revenues and increase the stock value?

/signed
I don't see any real reason to pre-order, especially for 40-70$. I planned to re-sub (I'm premium atm) but I won't until we get at least real expansion with instances/raids.

/signed,

though I do not blame Turbine.... I blame Warner Bro! The game took a big turn and started going down hill when they became involved

Originally Posted by Eloro

Since the devs say they look at forum posts, they should have seen this by now. 2,500 views in 24 hours, Turbine. If someone hasn't seen it by now (Sunday, June 10 2012) they will definitely see it Monday when they get back to work.

At the very least, can we get some kind of official response and acknowledgement?

How about an unofficial acknowledgement and response from a subscriber, who apparently is viewer 3,976 and the 103rd reply:


What a load of false entitlement poutrage. If you don't think the $70 package is of value then buy the cheaper one.

/signed

WB and Turbine need to do whats right for its customers. What would Tolkien do?
Add TP to the pre-order packages to bring the extras in-line with the price of pre-order.
Address the community and tell us what we are ordering... number of quests, Etc.
B

Originally Posted by hallasan

How about an unofficial acknowledgement and response from a subscriber, who apparently is viewer 3,976 and the 103rd reply:


What a load of false entitlement poutrage. If you don't think the $70 package is of value then buy the cheaper one.

You must have misunderstood. I don't think ANY of the packages are fairly priced. And, by my counts... neither do about 101 out of 104 replies.

Would you buy a car without knowing its mileage, year, make, or model? How about if it didn't have any tires? The dealer just tells you... "Yeah, no tires right now... but I'll get you some later this year. Not sure if I will charge you extra for them or not though."

Oh, and you could go to any other dealership and they'll give you all the info on the car you want, the car will be brand new, and less money. And you get tires too.

Your response in this situation would be, "Oh, well just buy a cheaper car from the dealer who won't give you tires!"

Originally Posted by Eloro

1. Release total information on everything. Answer every last question you guys get asked. Provide us with EXACTLY how much play time we are going to get from this. Give us details on how mounted combat is going to work, what is going to keep us busy. HOW MANY QUESTS ARE THERE? If it is really 2X-3X the amount of Moria, you should have no reason NOT to release that number. If you don't know, give us a ball park. I'm sure someone knows how many quests are in Moria. We can then verify if you are telling us the truth.
2. ADD Turbine Points into the top tier deal. For free. Don't make us pay extra for more points unless you've already given us some free. Give us 1500 points for the legendary, and I would probably buy it tonight. Give us 2000, and I'd delete this post and buy it now. Give us 2500 and I'd sing Turbine's praises. And recommend LOTRO to friends. Which means more money for you Turbine.You could also easily give the same amount of points to those who have already purchased the expansion, thereby avoiding stepping on any toes.
3. START WORKING ON END GAME RAIDS. NOW. Get them done ASAP. But don't make them buggy. If it takes a month after release, fine... But don't NOT start working on it. Start now. AND INCLUDE IT WITH THE EXPANSION PACK, AT NO EXTRA CHARGE. If you make us pay extra for these instances, then stop calling ROR an expansion pack. Call it what it is. A quest pack. A $40-$70 quest pack, depending on how naive the buyer is. If you don't include those instances at no charge, then give us all TP to make up the difference in price, or refund the amount to reflect what it actually is you are selling, which at this point is a quest pack with mounted combat added in, which, as I noted in point 1, we know almost nothing about.

I feel that if these 3 things were done, we'd have an expansion that people could buy into. I know I would. I'd feel a lot more confident in the direction this game is going.

This right here needs to be forwarded to the head of LotRO and Turbine ASAP. Those 3 things would make ALLOT of people happy. Thank you for the post and many many people share your thoughts.

/signed

My entire family has been playing this game since the 2007 closed beta. I have pre-purchased every add-on to this game and so has my family. Every time we have gotten the legendary editions. Turbine just lost 280$ from my house alone. I am all for what you had to say. Thank you for taking the time to post it. I have at least ten friends that pay to play this game and none of them are going to pre-order it now. Like Gamestop's modo goes, "Power to the players!". Please Turbine, listen to the players! You could make so much more money if you would just listen.

I agree, $70 is too much for just an expansion. If this keeps up, I will just quit, even after putting several years into LOTRO. /signed.

Originally Posted by Eloro

You must have misunderstood. I don't think ANY of the packages are fairly priced. And, by my counts... neither do about 101 out of 104 replies.

Would you buy a car without knowing its mileage, year, make, or model? How about if it didn't have any tires? The dealer just tells you... "Yeah, no tires right now... but I'll get you some later this year. Not sure if I will charge you extra for them or not though."

Oh, and you could go to any other dealership and they'll give you all the info on the car you want, the car will be brand new, and less money. And you get tires too.

Your response in this situation would be, "Oh, well just buy a cheaper car from the dealer who won't give you tires!"

That 101 people agreeing that something is too expensive based upon an arbitrary sense of how much something should be is fallacious. The pricing reflects cost + margin and that's it. If people buy one over the others then it informs Turbine about future pricing.

Also, the car analogy falters as Turbine has told you what you are getting with the purchase. Backing in expectations of entitlement, should, previously, but before and so on is not Turbine being cryptic but rather people not reading that for $xx you get these things. The comparison grid is straight-forward.

The argument about 'fairness' is based upon a fallacious presumption of entitlement and wanting more for less. Not a Turbine issue but a consumer wanting more for less. Nothing wrong with that but the argument presented is not convincing.

/not signed

Originally Posted by hallasan

That 101 people agreeing that something is too expensive based upon an arbitrary sense of how much something should be is fallacious. The pricing reflects cost + margin and that's it. If people buy one over the others then it informs Turbine about future pricing.

That would be classical production industries you are thinking of. But this is virtual goods industry, a very different animal. Just as a primer, development and advertisement are sunk costs and marginal cost of production is 0. The classical price of a virtual good is thereby 0 as well. Not much of a business model, so pricing is determined by maximizing the prize vs. cusomers willingness to pay. This willingness to pay is based on the expectation of value that customers perceive based on past experience and information provided by Turbine.

Originally Posted by hallasan

Also, the car analogy falters as Turbine has told you what you are getting with the purchase. Backing in expectations of entitlement, should, previously, but before and so on is not Turbine being cryptic but rather people not reading that for $xx you get these things. The comparison grid is straight-forward.

What you call entitlement is the expected value for the price. That is the only measure there is in virtual goods and what Turbine needs to base its price on. Here, people do read what they are getting and it does not match their expectation of what they should receive based on previous experience and information provided.

Originally Posted by hallasan

The argument about 'fairness' is based upon a fallacious presumption of entitlement and wanting more for less. Not a Turbine issue but a consumer wanting more for less. Nothing wrong with that but the argument presented is not convincing.

/not signed

No, fairness is in comparing price asked and value provided. For this expansion it does not match for a large number of customers. It may be that Turbine will pull more profit from selling this expansion at a higher price to less customers. It is very short sighted though, to maximize profit at the cost of driving away potential future customers when your business model is in long time service.

For 50% the price tab I would have ordered two expansions right away, as I did for Moria, Mirkwood and Isengard. Probably the base one as the goodies of the legendary edition are very meager too. Preorder perks are insufficient as well. I'll still be playing the expansion thanks to my 500 monthly points as a life timer and cut back on fluff. That is money lost to Turbine that a fair price would have provided them with.

Thanks Turbine, for not including Instances with Riders of Rohan. Your real awsome on that. Next time you put out an expansion, I won't pre-order it. Your losing costumers instead of getting them. Keep on, you will lose long time Lotro players.

Well put Eloro!! I've only been with LOTRO a little over a year and love the game! But all that you say is true. I after subbing I went went with RoI with some reservation and then bought my son the Mithril so he and I could play more maps together. If I were to add up all the money I've spent on this game in the last year, for points, expansions and more it would add up to over 250 + that doesn't include subscribing. I Know to some that may not seem like a lot, but I have games on my computer that are top of the line and I don't even play them anymore. LOTRO has my attention, but in this matter I will wait and see what happens. My re-sub is up in a few months so much here will determine what I do. I don't want to leave the game, but as you put it so eloquently. Times are hard and I could watch netflix or play on my in-system games and save a lot of money! Time will tell, I'll be watching! Thanks for your well put statement.

Originally Posted by hallasan

That 101 people agreeing that something is too expensive based upon an arbitrary sense of how much something should be is fallacious. The pricing reflects cost + margin and that's it. If people buy one over the others then it informs Turbine about future pricing.

Also, the car analogy falters as Turbine has told you what you are getting with the purchase. Backing in expectations of entitlement, should, previously, but before and so on is not Turbine being cryptic but rather people not reading that for $xx you get these things. The comparison grid is straight-forward.

The argument about 'fairness' is based upon a fallacious presumption of entitlement and wanting more for less. Not a Turbine issue but a consumer wanting more for less. Nothing wrong with that but the argument presented is not convincing.

/not signed

Even if you actually think this xpac is worth what the are charging (which its not) how "fair" is it that some people bought this xpac thinking that instances would be included, only too learn that turbine made a "mistake" and that instances aren't included and f2p and premium players will most likely have to purchase them in the future. They won't even confirm that vip's will get them for free, but I personally think they will.

You have to remember what Fernando Paiz said, don't worry about what people say on the forums because they still buy stuff. In other words, so long as we're making money, we don't care.

I think this is a brave effort and it clearly has hit the right chord with a lot of people, but frankly you're kidding yourselves if you think Turbine gives a hoot how outraged we are over the initial price, the lack of instances, and the communications back-pedaling. Enough people probably bought the expansion for them to meet their numbers projections before the truth about it was revealed. So, Turbine will make their money, think they made a smart business decision, and feel justified in ignoring the forums.

While it might technically be an expansion, the truth is that all that you really get for your money is the Rohan quest pack. Everything else (mounted combat, another 10 levels, the Epic) you get for free. Part of this is because of LOTRO's hybrid business model and part is due to Turbine's determination to make the Epic available to everyone, which is laudable. But they certainly failed to communicate clearly. It appears that Turbine, which used to be fairly good at this, has lost its knack for understanding its player base. And maybe that's because they ignore the forums and only look at their data points and metrics.

In any event, I do hope you are successful in provoking some second thoughts among Turbine's management, which will likely happen if they don't meet their sales projections.

Originally Posted by hallasan

That 101 people agreeing that something is too expensive based upon an arbitrary sense of how much something should be is fallacious. The pricing reflects cost + margin and that's it. If people buy one over the others then it informs Turbine about future pricing.

Also, the car analogy falters as Turbine has told you what you are getting with the purchase. Backing in expectations of entitlement, should, previously, but before and so on is not Turbine being cryptic but rather people not reading that for $xx you get these things. The comparison grid is straight-forward.

The argument about 'fairness' is based upon a fallacious presumption of entitlement and wanting more for less. Not a Turbine issue but a consumer wanting more for less. Nothing wrong with that but the argument presented is not convincing.

/not signed

So much confusion. Yes, Turbine wants more money for much less value and content. I do call this entitelment.

They clearly and undeniably treat all there customers as idots now. Most people seemt to get it. Some desperate beings still try to defend there greediness. But the reality is. Turbine is selling 'crack' for online addicts. Its stuff of the lowest quality. But Turbine isnt ashamed of making the most money out of those junkies and helpless.

For 40dollars I can buy swtor and sub for an additional month. For 70 dollars I can play for over one year.

This is down to the lowest lows of F2P. This is as criminal as the usal browsergame F2P rip off. But on a much bigger scale. People at Turbine are criminals. At least they have no shame in making this clear to every single one of there 'fans'.

/signed

I remenber that I bought RoI legendary because it was a good deal for someone who was f2p player, but this time Turbine has to be shame about the price of this expansion until they realized that with the same amount of money you can buy another game like diablo 3, guild wars 2, etc not an expansion!

Ill be back in lotro when they change the price of add something for all 3 editions, I just buy diablo 3 in a retail box for $45 last Friday. . . and They want pay $40 for an expansion without an instace cluster like RoI, at least give me the instance cluster after but free! because Im paying for an expansion for god sake!

Soooo... I can pay 70$ for 6 months of Eve Online which has had like 14 or 15 free ex-packs and is an entirely new game to me? Or I can pay 70$ for a 6 bag that I have managed to live without for 5 years and a crystal which I have also managed to live without fo 5 years. I can pay 70$ for a region that is 3 times the size of Moria, or is it almost 2 times the size of Moria? Which is it, Turbine? You have said both but, it appears, you are lying about one. I can pay 70$ for a certain number of unknown quests and one new game-play mechanic which I will probably do twice and then quit it. I can pay 70$ for no new end-game instances. Hmmmmm... well I really can't decide which would be a better use of mah money.

The price is really just too high as was stated with the state of the global economy. Here at home I find myself again unemployed and any money I can drag together must go to keep body and soul together for the family.

I have played since beta and have two lifetime, founders accounts. My son, as a gift surprised me with the update for my main acct as a father's day gift. I will not however be purchasing Riders of Rohan for my secondary acct.

Signed.

Not buying the expansion, and won't until Turbine proves they listen, add meaningful content, and get a clue about value for money. We are not cash cows, we are customers. And we are annoyed.