Discussion: Please don't make me decon my legendary item... AGAIN!

There are tons of threads about improving the legendary system. So I'm not going to regurgitate all the great suggestions in those thread. I don't want the legendary system to go away, I do like the concept. But as originally advertised, please give us something that "grows with us". Every time we go through an expansion, we are forced to destroy our so-called legendary items and start all over again. Every time there are waves of angry players. This is honestly 101 behavioral science... the harder you work for something, the more emotionally attached you are. Every time we ask (force) a player to throw away a hard earned and leveled item, it causes emotional frustration and disengagement from their toon (and ultimately the game). It's particularly bad with legendary items. With armour sets, player expect to find a set, and then find an even better set later. We are ok with that. But with legendary items, the system asks you grow, develop, and invest in a particular item. We slowly grind and tweak away in the effort to maximize the power of the item. We would see much more satisfaction, and far less frustration if we could grow and expand on an item. (And honestly there should be some special benefit for items that have grown through all the expansions - not just speed leveled to the top and picked up the last version.)

To be honest... this time around (with RoR) I didn't even bother trying to get a 1st age... no point really... it will just be torn up for some stupid random lvl80 3rd ager a few months later... crystals?... I've notice that our kin members mostly just sells them off or store them up since we destroy our weapons in a couple of months.

I'm in a larger kin and spend a lot of time recruiting and talking to players as they come and go. We have a lot of good players now that rarely log in anymore. When asked why, they stated that the game just doesn't seem to hold their attention, in large part because the grind and the investment in a particular character has started to feel pointless. (no... these are not whiny, immature, or rage quitting players - just a series of open and casual conversations as to why they're not play anymore) Despite having great potential, I honestly believe that the requirement to destroy our legendary items completely undermines the concept of legendary (not much of a legend given their only around for 4-6 months), and undermine a players attachment to the game. It's contributing to people leaving the game.

Please change the system to grow expansion after expansion, not replace. I fact, add history, add kill counters, add reputation or fame points, add leader-boards for items... all things to make a players item actually... uhm... wait for it...."legendary".


(ok... that was much longer than I'd planned )

/signed again wish they would have ade them like they said and they leveled with you.

While I agree...I wouldn't count on it.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

I would love this, but I am not counting on it.

Great idea. Turbine has stated on multiple occasions that Legendary Items are a disposable item that we are expected to use for a while. Deconstruct because we have a better replacement. Turbine obviously sees Legendary Items as part of the standard gear system used for all armor, shields, jewelery and weapons. Get it. Use it. Loose it.

Legendary Item System is heavily coupled into single use Legendary Item support products in the Lotro Store. The Legendary Item System is a great source of steady income for Turbine via purchase of consumable items. All this revenue goes away with a permanent Legendary Item that we upgrade. Turbine is not going to give all these dollars up.

The entire evolution of the Legendary Item System since F2P is based around. How can we charge our customers more dollars to get the best items for their character?

I have to agree with Yula. Turbine isn't going to do this (at least not until the game's desperate last-gasp). And that makes me sad. :*(

I remember how I felt when they announced Legendary weapons. And the way they mentioned it with the new leaderboard tech made a lot of us think that Legendary weapons were going to be really cool--with a system that tracks kills and deeds and stuff. I was excited that I could get 1 weapon and keep it forever.

Then came the reality. Boring.

Totally agree, but sadly you are just spitting into the wind. Business model here is quite clear, and it involves bunches of things from the store. Relic removal scrolls, legacy scrolls, crystals of a no-doubt increasing number of flavors, relics, etc.

Upcoming decon, even though 3 months away, makes me not invest more in my LI. Fill it up with star-lit crystals? Why bother, going to be trash soon. Make a specialized tanking emblem or 1-H weapon for my Captain? Why bother, going to be trash soon. Very demoralizing. And I still like the game and play it quite a bit. Just find the LI grind so depressing. When ROR comes around and I decon my first age sword, which I've poured into 12-14 GSOE, Delving, some relics, Stangard scroll, and 1 starlit (decided not worth more regardless of pending decon, btw), I'll be really unhappy. Switching to new armor somehow won't bother me at all, maybe because I didn't personalize and incrementally improve my armor.

This approach is like saying when the level cap rises you take your skirmish soldier out back of the Prancing Pony. Say "Sorry buddy, it is just business. We've been through alot together, but I need a new soldier for the new era.". And shoot him.

I wish they could come up with a way where we could both keep our legendary BUT still have the need for regular upgrades and such, to keep business flowing to the store.

But that means our weapons will have to continue to get better, rather than the "LIs from scratch" method we have now, where we take 2 steps forward and then 2 steps back with the cap increase. Not sure they could handle that.

*They* would have to start from scratch and create things for us to buy. They could tie legacies to deeds, and offer deed accelerators. They could make Starlit Crystals and settings/gems/relics consumed upon upgrade (if they created items to turn a L75 LI into a L85 3rd age, 2nd age, and 1st age).

They would still be missing out on Legacy Upgrade scroll cash. They'd have to add a constant need for something else to offset that.

Perhaps there would be a way...maybe have special items that drop that can be used at a reforge to upgrade the level and age of the item, but maybe this would destroy relics on the item, remove xp and LI levels, and maybe have a chance of causing a legacy to drop a teir or something so that there is still a need for store-stuff...

How does this sound?

Consider the balance implications...right now, the game is balanced around an "average" of two Second Agers with moderate legacy investment. Anything more than that puts you "ahead of the curve" when it comes to monsters. If you manage to get two maxed out FAs, you're significantly more powerful than you "need" to be to do the content at the intended difficulty.

The popular suggestion of perma-LIs means the game would have to be rebalanced around an "average" of just about a perfect first age LI, since without occasional resets, the playerbase would inexorably drift towards that level. Anyone who hadn't reached that lofty pinnacle yet - new players and more casual players, mostly - would be underpowered for most content, and those that had would merely be "average"...there would be no way to become really "exceptional" anymore.

In short, perma-LIs wouldnt fix anything, it'd just be moving the furniture. The real solution, and the easier solution, is to rebalance your expectations to fit the system, not vice versa - think of Second Agers as your "full endgame" weapon, and First Agers as a "bonus weapon" if you choose to put the time and resources towards acquiring one, for the length of time you know you'll use it.

Time+risk+cost=power, thats the formula that works for MMOs. Resets keep it so that there's two tiers of power....a little time + cost = average SA power, a lot of time + cost = exceptional FA power.

i dont use legendary weapons anymore. i would like the option to vender them. right now only options are to decon, then decon again into shards or try and sell in auction house. if they wont let us vender them then let us decon them into marks or medallions

what about crafting them, would this suggestion eliminate crafting LI's? i actually like craftin

Envoyé par Yula_the_Mighty

Legendary Item System is heavily coupled into single use Legendary Item support products in the Lotro Store. The Legendary Item System is a great source of steady income for Turbine via purchase of consumable items. All this revenue goes away with a permanent Legendary Item that we upgrade. Turbine is not going to give all these dollars up.

They are giving the dollars up anyway. Every time players have to throw away their LI's and start all over, the more they realize there is no point and don't bother the next time, like the OP said.

I'm surprised Turbine hasn't come up with something to sell in the store like a scroll that raises the level and dps of the LI.

For example, if you had a 2nd age lvl 65 weapon, you could purchase said scroll and apply to it which would raise it to a lvl 70 2nd ager with corresponding dps. That way players get to keep their weapons and turbine keeps making boat loads of money.

I could honnestly see this working in a similar fashion to the way relic removal scrolls do, but the LI would have to be at a max level in addition to safely removing the relics (resetting all LI points would be a nice option too.)

I really wish they would do something different this time, so much time and money invested in my lvl 75 2nd agers...

Instead of making a new weapon from new metal, just let the weapon continue to grow so as for us continue to grow our major and minor legacies to the max. Also instead of equipping only3 legendary attributes in the legendary slot, make it 4 or 5,this would increase the players defensive and offensive over all power and abilities.

Hello!

To add to the discussion...

One is to give preference to VIPs through cap levels (for example limit how high a legacy could be increased to non-VIPs). This might encourage more subs, which is not the real money maker in micro-transaction but it at least provides a steady income.

Make LI scrolls (the damage-type modifier, removal, delving, stat legacies etc) available only through the store.

Maybe sell store-exclusive LI cosmetic skins? That could be a great way to add some flavor to the game and allow players an opportunity to personalize their weapons to a certain extent.

Something does need to be done! I took a break and came back after the cap level and now I loathe all the work I need to do to catch-up. Moreover, some of my LIs, like my Hunter's bow 65 2A, are perfect, and I hate the thought that that are obsolete. So much so, I am fain to even level my hunter because I will never have another bow like this one.

Ilv

I agree with your post. I find it very discouraging for "legendary items'' to be so.... well un legendary... and disposable. It would be a simple thing to fix I think if they made them less disposable, there have been several suggestions to fix this but it sounds like some people are concerned with the power balance issue. The thing I find is that people who have a whole lot of alts (I have 9) do not have enough time to get all the endgame that they would like to and get discouraged to play their characters again when it gets close to an expansion. Some people have even said that because of everything getting basically thrown away when the next expansion hits they are going to leave their character at 75 and not play it again to feel like they ''accomplished'' something. I also know people who have quit playing over this issue altogether. My solution is well.... level another alt, but that doesn't mean that I don't want to be able to keep my legendary items and give them better endgame gear. and have it still be useful when the expansion hits.

/signed

I wish too that something along those lines would be implemented.

As is, it would appear that Turbine (or WB - take your pick...) decided that the answer to the community's complaints on the "un-legendary" LIs is to throw us a bone in the shape of a new crystal to add a few measly points to dps, or to +tactical / +physical dmg / +healing, as if that means the weapon "upgrade" means it is "growing with us," not to mention their latest carrot with the intro of the RoR expansion pre-orders: a crystal to add another major to your weapon, something which will (like the star crystals) be purchasable from the Lotro Store.

Currently maintaining four lvl75s, three of which conservatively roll with 4 maxed LIs each, the third char with just two, I am not willing to grind fest my way through to level cap on another alt. The gear grind alone for the ones I have is daunting, as many have already stated. The fact that devs cannot in the slightest acknowledge the weapon issue other than to say "nope, sorry WAI" and then turn around with "buy this to 'fix' your gripe," kinda feels like a slap in the face.... I will give RoR a try but I am not especially looking forward to it, given the LI prospects before me... *sigh

Envoyé par Hefin

Currently maintaining four lvl75s, three of which conservatively roll with 4 maxed LIs each, the third char with just two, I am not willing to grind fest my way through to level cap on another alt.

Sooo....dont? Who said you're entitled to 2-4 maxed LIs on each character?

You can get by just fine with a non-maxed SA LI. Everything after that is, really, just small incremental bonuses. Does the extra 3% to one skill's damage or -45 to Enemy Resists really mean the difference between instant success and repeated death?

I'd love to drive a brand-new BMW. I just dont want to have to pay $450 a month or whatever for a car that I'll only drive for 10 years or so, and that will lose half its value as soon as I take it off the lot. But I'm not writing letters to BMW complaining that it costs too much to drive their cars, or that I dont get to "keep" the value that I paid for it. I just buy a used Nissan Versa instead. I still get everywhere I need to go.

You want better LIs, expect to invest in it...either time, or TP. If that deal isnt good for you, then a non-maxed LI works just fine. Gets you everywhere you want to go.

At first I enjoyed LIs, heading into Moria and getting my first 1st age weapon was great. But now I just find them to be a nuisance. Popping up that they 'leveled up' every 10 minutes, having them drop from every other mob, having to micro-manage them through relic masters, it's all just way too much work. I'd much rather have a system where you forge/manage them yourself to eliminate pointless NPC interactions, especially as the increasing frequency to do so hits as you get closer to the level cap.

Also having them clog up your inventory and dropping from every other mob is just silly. It's just way too much micromanaging and when you realize that dedicating any relics to them and spending any significant time working on their traits/upgrades is a waste of time when you know that you're going to replace them - it just becomes tedious. I'd much rather have interesting weapon choices (like gear) and save LIs for max level only, and have them feel special.

And now, we get a *third* grind-'til-you're-blind LI.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/07...-mounted-comb/

Just under the "Pimp My Mount" topic.

I *really* hope Turbine does *something* different with LIs come RoR (apart from adding more LI slots for our Legendary Saddles {and don't elves ride bare-back anyway?!}).

I agree 100% but don't count on it.

Envoyé par Wisp701

To be honest... this time around (with RoR) I didn't even bother trying to get a 1st age... no point really

Did you try to get the best jewelry you could? Did you try to get the best armour you could? Pretty sure you probably did, yet all of that is going to be thrown out and replaced too.

Maybe Turbine should just change the name to something else because all I see people getting hung up on is the word 'legendary'. If it was simply CIs (customizable weapons) would people still complain? Probably this is an internet forum after all, but it'd be nice to see something new at least.

My kin used to have 80~100 real life people in pre Moria. Now were down to a handful.

One of the main reasons was the LI system. One kinmate expressed it perfectly "Turbine have invented the ultimate time sink" (this was before you had A & B Pools, or could extract legacies even before the Store!)

Would you play a game where the objective was to reach level 100. You reach it, yaay! then when the next expansion came out your level was reset to 70?

Thats exactly what the LI system is & why I no longer bother with it. It means im excluded from endgame content "You only have a Third age?" but Its better than grinding your face off to regain-what-you-had-but-lost.

Envoyé par Catisa

Did you try to get the best jewelry you could? Did you try to get the best armour you could? Pretty sure you probably did, yet all of that is going to be thrown out and replaced too.

Yeah, but it somehow feels different to many. I don't name my jewelry. I don't put 12-14 GSOE, a delving scroll, and a damage type scroll into each piece of jewelry. I don't put 4 somewhat hard to get relics into my jewelry. I don't "level" my jewelry up. LI reset feels more like resetting your skirmish buddy to 0, as opposed to just needing to level him up some more...

Somehow, getting armor and jewelry doesn't make me not want to play my alts. Getting good LIs did make me stop seriously playing my alts. i.e. at least to ME there is a perceived difference...

So you name your LI. I use the same name now for my weapons and belts. Yes the weapon look changes but that does not mean I have to change the name.

There have been many ideas put forward some very reasonable and some just silly. But I agree that what we have is what we are going to have for a long time.

The best suggestion I saw was to change your expectations.

Sorry all but we have what we have.

Envoyé par DelgonTheWise

Yeah, but it somehow feels different to many. I don't name my jewelry. I don't put 12-14 GSOE, a delving scroll, and a damage type scroll into each piece of jewelry. I don't put 4 somewhat hard to get relics into my jewelry. I don't "level" my jewelry up. LI reset feels more like resetting your skirmish buddy to 0, as opposed to just needing to level him up some more...

Well you also only have 2 LI slots to fill, not 7 armor slots and 6 jewellery slots. Each one of those takes at least a RHS to fill, which is worth about 1/2 a GSoE (~600 vs 1200 Marks IIRC). If you're grinding out a full set of raid armor, thats a whole lot of medallions and seals plus the time to do the instance cluster at least once to unlock it. And then however many more raids/instances it takes to acquire the instance-drop jewellery you're after. Or, in cases like the Draigoch cloak or ToO necklace, you're looking at sinking even more time/value to acquire those items.

I get where psychologically it feels different with LIs, but in raw mathematical terms, LI investment per update is on par with your other gear, considering how much more effect upgrading your weapon has, compared to upgrading, say, an earring or your helmet.

Envoyé par Catisa

Did you try to get the best jewelry you could? Did you try to get the best armour you could? Pretty sure you probably did, yet all of that is going to be thrown out and replaced too.

Maybe Turbine should just change the name to something else because all I see people getting hung up on is the word 'legendary'. If it was simply CIs (customizable weapons) would people still complain? Probably this is an internet forum after all, but it'd be nice to see something new at least.

The difference between the amount of time you invest in an LI and the amount of time you invest in any piece of jewelry or armor, even one you have to raid repeatedly for, is mind-boggling. Your analogy is deeply flawed because of this.

Envoyé par Maxal

So you name your LI. I use the same name now for my weapons and belts. Yes the weapon look changes but that does not mean I have to change the name.

There have been many ideas put forward some very reasonable and some just silly. But I agree that what we have is what we are going to have for a long time.

The best suggestion I saw was to change your expectations.

Sorry all but we have what we have.

If we'd changed our expectations, we'd still have the blind lottery that was ten times as frustrating/futile as the current LI system. No change happens without a loud call for change.

I do agree with you on one point, though. Turbine isn't going to be changing the LI system significantly any time soon. Sadly.

Envoyé par droid

Well you also only have 2 LI slots to fill, not 7 armor slots and 6 jewellery slots. Each one of those takes at least a RHS to fill, which is worth about 1/2 a GSoE (~600 vs 1200 Marks IIRC). If you're grinding out a full set of raid armor, thats a whole lot of medallions and seals plus the time to do the instance cluster at least once to unlock it. And then however many more raids/instances it takes to acquire the instance-drop jewellery you're after. Or, in cases like the Draigoch cloak or ToO necklace, you're looking at sinking even more time/value to acquire those items.

I get where psychologically it feels different with LIs, but in raw mathematical terms, LI investment per update is on par with your other gear, considering how much more effect upgrading your weapon has, compared to upgrading, say, an earring or your helmet.

Ok, let's say you raid regularly with 11 buddies. Let's say your standard rules are that you win one piece of teal loot per run so everyone gets a chance to win something. And let's say that you raid 3 hours per week. If it takes two trips for you to win any one piece (jewelry, armor, cloak, offhand weapon), that's six hours for one item. Multiply that by 13 (2 earrings, 2 rings, 1 necklace, 6 armor, 1 offhand, 1 cloak) and you've got 78 hours for a full set of jewelry, armor, etc.

Now this is just a ballpark figure. Sure it might take an extra few runs here and there, but we're looking at fewer than 100 dedicated in-game hours on average.

Now, let's take a similar look at LIs.

LIs take about 50 hours if you just keep 3rd agers. And we're not including the LIs you get as you level towards the cap. Only the ones you get after you reach the cap. Read below if you want to see my breakdown.
============================== ============================== ======================
Ick! I don't know if I have that kind of energy. Try to bear with me.

You have to spend dedicated time to acquire Scrolls of Empowerment (how many? 10? there are six legacies with four upgrades, so it's possible you'd need 21 in addition to the three built-in upgrades, but that many is unlikely). Each of these scrolls requires, let's say, two hours of skirmishing if you don't get enough from the epic questline. So that's 20 hours there.

20 hours (Edit: I'm sorry. I made a basic mistake. I should've said "20 hours per LI.")

You also have to spend dedicated time looking for a Scroll of Delving. That one's pretty easy, let's say 1 or 2 hours for that.

21.5 hours

And you have to spend dedicated time on Relics.
1 T8 Relic = 3 T7 Relics = 9 T6 Relics = 27 T5 Relics = 81 T4 Relics = 324 T3 Relics = 1296 T2 Relics = 6480 T1 Relics (http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Relics)
Sure you'll get some T4 or T5 relics on varous runs, but that's still a lot of dedicated time considering you have 3 relic slots for each of your LIs. Even if you only slot relics on two LIs (which you can't really do if you're a Captain or a Rune Keeper) that's a heck of a lot of relics. Easily 20 hours again for your two LIs (more if you want the melded relics).

41.5 hours

For IXP runes, you can get maybe 100,000 ixp on a good instance run. Usually it's between 1/3 to 1/2 that much, and LIs require 1.2 million ixp to hit 70 on a 3rd age, 2+ million for a 2nd ager, and 3.6 million ixp for a 1st Ager. So let's average 70,000 ixp per 2 hour run and about 1/2 of your total ixp from runes, so... Eight and a half runs for 600k ixp times two hours a run and we get 17 hours for a 3rd age LI. Longer for 2nd Agers and even longer for 1st Agers. (http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Legen...tem_Experience)

59 hours

And finally you have to grind for Legacies. Not upgrading them with Scrolls of Empowerment so much as just getting the ones you want. We have to discard lots of LIs before we find one that's suitable to build upon (that is: one that has suitable legacies of an appropriate tier so we won't require 21 SoEs). And that means getting an LI up to level 31 (480k ixp). 240k ixp divided by 70k ixp runes = 3.4 runs x 2 hours = 6.8 hours per LI.

66 hours

Now, a lot of these things can be done with some simultaneous overlap, like the ixp runes and relics, so we'll ballpark your LI investment at 50 hours (and I suspect it's really more than that). (Edit: Per the edit above, I'm revising this number to 70 hours since most players roll with at least two LIs.)
============================== ============================== =======================

So, for a full set of armor, a cloak, an off-hand weapon/shield/bow, and a full set of jewelry you're looking at an 80-ish hour investment.
For 2 LIs you're looking at 50 hours of dedicated gameplay.

13 items = 80 hours
2 LIs = 70 hours (Edit: Changed this number from "50" to reflect my edits above)

Does this seem imbalanced at all to you? It sure does to me.

Envoyé par droid

Sooo....dont? Who said you're entitled to 2-4 maxed LIs on each character?

You can get by just fine with a non-maxed SA LI. Everything after that is, really, just small incremental bonuses. Does the extra 3% to one skill's damage or -45 to Enemy Resists really mean the difference between instant success and repeated death?

I'd love to drive a brand-new BMW. I just dont want to have to pay $450 a month or whatever for a car that I'll only drive for 10 years or so, and that will lose half its value as soon as I take it off the lot. But I'm not writing letters to BMW complaining that it costs too much to drive their cars, or that I dont get to "keep" the value that I paid for it. I just buy a used Nissan Versa instead. I still get everywhere I need to go.

You want better LIs, expect to invest in it...either time, or TP. If that deal isnt good for you, then a non-maxed LI works just fine. Gets you everywhere you want to go.

Let's get one thing straight: I never said I was entitled to anything -- all I stated was that I am not willing to roll any more alts to grind out all the LIs mine usually run with - something which for some reason you seem to take issue with.

And is as far as investing time, ya I HAVE invested time, tons of it - enough to know that with the current LI system in place I got enough on my plate. Even if I only had ONE LI on each character.

Investing time is also how I learned that sometimes, for my play style, having multiple LIs is a good thing, and YES it can make a difference. Especially since I raid regularly, play support classes, and value having the flexibility to max on different skill sets for different situations, which my fellows appreciate. It's no different than grinding deeds for multiple types of virtues so you don't always roll with the same build. It is merely a reflection of being prepared for different things and most ppl I know who raid understand what I mean as many of them do the same.

My post was meant to support the OPs idea - as I agree we need a revamp on some aspects of the LI system and not just little trinkets thrown at us from the store for TP, which do not address the work presently involved in LIs whether you have one or ten.

Envoyé par ElanMorinTedroni

you've got 78 hours for a full set of jewelry, armor, etc...

Now, let's take a similar look at LIs.

Scrolls of Empowerment ... possible you'd need 21 in addition to the three built-in upgrades, but that many is unlikely....

Scroll of Delving...

Relics...

IXP runes...

Legacies....

...so we'll ballpark your LI investment at 50 hours (and I suspect it's really more than that).

...

So, for a full set of armor, a cloak, an off-hand weapon/shield/bow, and a full set of jewelry you're looking at an 80-ish hour investment.
For 2 LIs you're looking at 50 hours of dedicated gameplay.

13 items = 80 hours
2 LIs = 50 hours

Does this seem imbalanced at all to you? It sure does to me.

6 hours apiece for non-weapon gear
25 hours apiece for LIs

Are LIs 4 times as powerful as a given single piece of gear? I'd say possibly...they give way more bonuses than any single piece of gear, and types of bonuses above and beyond the basic-stat bonuses you get on gear, plus your LI is really 4 items at once - the weapon itself with legacies and inherent bonuses, plus 3 slots for relics, which are effectively like mini-jewelry.

That being said, I'd also argue 50 hours is a bit high. For an established endgame character/account, you're going to have a supply of Shards beforehand for relic crafting (and, really, "cheap" relics are only very incrementally worse than "godly" relics). You're going to get an IXP rune from your old LI worth about 30-40 levels right off the bat, plus you never have to grind for IXP, you get it just playing. And you probably are going to have a bunch of legacy scrolls in your stash (if you're wise) just from grinding out trash LIs to 31 before the expansion.

SoEs are really the only major grind. One SoD per LI per year isnt too bad. Depending on your luck, as you mention, you might need up to 21 SoEs...but you can barter them with rep factions, trade marks for them, or buy them on the AH. Marks and gold flow so freely from non-grinding content that, much like IXP, you can earn a baseline number of SoEs without specifically grinding anything for them.

Envoyé par Hefin

Investing time is also how I learned that sometimes, for my play style, having multiple LIs is a good thing, and YES it can make a difference. Especially since I raid regularly, play support classes, and value having the flexibility to max on different skill sets for different situations, which my fellows appreciate. It's no different than grinding deeds for multiple types of virtues so you don't always roll with the same build. It is merely a reflection of being prepared for different things and most ppl I know who raid understand what I mean as many of them do the same.

No doubt it makes a difference - much more of a difference than swapping in virtues, which BTW you cant do on the fly like you can with LIs... That difference = greater power for you and your group = balance tradeoff somewhere.

That flexibility is, really, circumventing a design intention of you choosing to specialize your LIs towards one function or another. Some RKs, eg, are built for damage, some for healing. Depending what your group needs, one might be more valuable than the other, but not every RK is supposed to be exactly the same, ideal for both.

If you want the bonus of having it both ways, that's an option Turbine has given us (unlike some games where you're forced to specialize, and the choice is permanent) - but the price of that option, and the added potential it offers, is doubling your investment in the LI grind.

I have to admit, that I found it odd that legendary items didn't level with you the first time I got one. Cause that was the impression I got from that one loading splash screen back in the day ... Wow, I sounded like an old person just then

Envoyé par droid

6 hours apiece for non-weapon gear
25 hours apiece for LIs

Are LIs 4 times as powerful as a given single piece of gear? I'd say possibly...they give way more bonuses than any single piece of gear, and types of bonuses above and beyond the basic-stat bonuses you get on gear, plus your LI is really 4 items at once - the weapon itself with legacies and inherent bonuses, plus 3 slots for relics, which are effectively like mini-jewelry.

Ok. I'll buy that. LIs are far more functional that most other gear. That's not necessarily to say they're more powerful. My champ's second age sword has lower dps than his crafted teal off-hand.

That being said, I'd also argue 50 hours is a bit high. For an established endgame character/account, you're going to have a supply of Shards beforehand for relic crafting (and, really, "cheap" relics are only very incrementally worse than "godly" relics).

But LotRO is a game of small numbers, so those very small increments *are* significant. Especially if you want to do endgame content. And those shards are generally used for melding relics (which is a dead-end line, meaning you'll have to start over from scratch again once those are gone/useless). And all that melding can be an expensive proposition; the shards are used up *very* quickly, so that established supply will not last very long at all.

You're going to get an IXP rune from your old LI worth about 30-40 levels right off the bat,

That has happened to me once (from a lvl 60 1st age LI). It is more common by far to get twenty levels or less worth of ixp off an old LI.

plus you never have to grind for IXP, you get it just playing. And you probably are going to have a bunch of legacy scrolls in your stash (if you're wise) just from grinding out trash LIs to 31 before the expansion.

Sure. I have a store of Legacy Scrolls. But that doesn't mean I have all the ones I need for all the LIs I go through. Especially when they don't work on the new expansion's LIs. On top of that, you also have to get a new weapon every few levels, remember? And sometimes you just can't afford to be picky over a trash LI (which is something that should never be said; back in Shadows of Angmar, I *never* used a weapon that I considered trash).

SoEs are really the only major grind. One SoD per LI per year isnt too bad. Depending on your luck, as you mention, you might need up to 21 SoEs...but you can barter them with rep factions, trade marks for them, or buy them on the AH. Marks and gold flow so freely from non-grinding content that, much like IXP, you can earn a baseline number of SoEs without specifically grinding anything for them.

GSoEs can only be gotten five ways:
1. quest reward for a very limited number of quests
2. one deed completion (Draigoch)
3. Skirmish Vendor
4. Great River Vendor
5. Buy them for a lot of gold

Here's my problem with your assertion: You'll never get a significant number of useful SoEs before you've gotten to the cap and found the right LI and leveled that up. You're constantly trying to make your junk LIs (shudder) *useful* until you hit the cap and can finally invest in a slightly less-temporary 3rd ager. Then it starts all over again for a 2nd ager. Your number of useful scrolls is especially limited since the expansions bring new tiers of SoEs that replace the ones you've been earning before the expansion.

It's the reset to zero of *every aspect* of the LIs *every time* (every three levels to the cap, then one functional at the cap, then one best-case 3rd ager, then a 2nd ager or three, then maybe a first ager) that makes these things such a pain. Like I've said before, it would be like your Virtues resetting to zero with each expansion.

Envoyé par ElanMorinTedroni

Here's my problem with your assertion: You'll never get a significant number of useful SoEs before you've gotten to the cap and found the right LI and leveled that up. You're constantly trying to make your junk LIs (shudder) *useful* until you hit the cap and can finally invest in a slightly less-temporary 3rd ager. Then it starts all over again for a 2nd ager. Your number of useful scrolls is especially limited since the expansions bring new tiers of SoEs that replace the ones you've been earning before the expansion.

Well no, I dont think you're supposed to be investing that much in the "in between" stages. Your 75SA/FA offhand/class item will serve you till you can get an 85SA/FA. Your 75SA/FA mainhand will probably serve you through 80, when you can switch to whatever L80TA you can get for the last 5 levels. Leveling and questing in this game is quick and extremely easy. I would never invest SoEs/SoDs in a TA weapon, nor really any legacy scrolls unless they were doubles...

And why would you be saving up SoEs from before the expansion? Just save up and buy the new ones, when you need them.

Once you get to 85, you might roll with whatever 85TA has the two or three most important legs for you, till you can get an 85SA. If you're a hardcore player, you'll be able to win your 85 SoC sooner. If you're not hardcore, then you dont need that 85SA quite as urgently.

Then you can start looking at investing in SoEs and such. Yes, you wont be able to max out all your legacies immediately upon IDing your new Second Ager - but you should be able to get a couple legacies up to T4 or 5, enough that its fully usable. From there, you can improve it over the course of the next year, as you play more and earn more.

Envoyé par droid

6 hours apiece for non-weapon gear
25 hours apiece for LIs

Are LIs 4 times as powerful as a given single piece of gear? I'd say possibly...they give way more bonuses than any single piece of gear, and types of bonuses above and beyond the basic-stat bonuses you get on gear, plus your LI is really 4 items at once - the weapon itself with legacies and inherent bonuses, plus 3 slots for relics, which are effectively like mini-jewelry.

That being said, I'd also argue 50 hours is a bit high. For an established endgame character/account, you're going to have a supply of Shards beforehand for relic crafting (and, really, "cheap" relics are only very incrementally worse than "godly" relics). You're going to get an IXP rune from your old LI worth about 30-40 levels right off the bat, plus you never have to grind for IXP, you get it just playing. And you probably are going to have a bunch of legacy scrolls in your stash (if you're wise) just from grinding out trash LIs to 31 before the expansion.

SoEs are really the only major grind. One SoD per LI per year isnt too bad. Depending on your luck, as you mention, you might need up to 21 SoEs...but you can barter them with rep factions, trade marks for them, or buy them on the AH. Marks and gold flow so freely from non-grinding content that, much like IXP, you can earn a baseline number of SoEs without specifically grinding anything for them.



No doubt it makes a difference - much more of a difference than swapping in virtues, which BTW you cant do on the fly like you can with LIs... That difference = greater power for you and your group = balance tradeoff somewhere.

That flexibility is, really, circumventing a design intention of you choosing to specialize your LIs towards one function or another. Some RKs, eg, are built for damage, some for healing. Depending what your group needs, one might be more valuable than the other, but not every RK is supposed to be exactly the same, ideal for both.

If you want the bonus of having it both ways, that's an option Turbine has given us (unlike some games where you're forced to specialize, and the choice is permanent) - but the price of that option, and the added potential it offers, is doubling your investment in the LI grind.

Lol...if I really were "circumventing" some dev intended design of creating LIs for only ONE specialization, I wouldn't be lugging around multiple LIs each with one specialization.

What you describe as a "bonus" of "having it both ways" I see as logical development of my characters skills. As is in: if I learn my character has the capacity to do x-y-z, then I being curious by nature and happy to experiment will make an effort to play x-y-z and see what each is like, not just choose x only, or just x & y - which incidentally is just *yawn* for me.

It is contradictory to state the design intends for players to specialize their weapons for one thing, but that Turbine "gives" players the "option" to build flexibly.

I don't mind the "investment," I mind the manner in which I have to invest given the current system, and I mind the lack of creative thinking behind it after all this time that the game has been out and the massive amount of threads in the community on the subject.

If your point is is that the LI system works great as is, then I am most happy to disagree with you and leave it at that.

You might as well ask for the sun not to shine. LOTRO's so-called Legendary Items are legendary in name only.

Envoyé par Hefin

Lol...if I really were "circumventing" some dev intended design of creating LIs for only ONE specialization, I wouldn't be lugging around multiple LIs each with one specialization.

What you describe as a "bonus" of "having it both ways" I see as logical development of my characters skills. As is in: if I learn my character has the capacity to do x-y-z, then I being curious by nature and happy to experiment will make an effort to play x-y-z and see what each is like, not just choose x only, or just x & y - which incidentally is just *yawn* for me.

See it however you want to...but it is the way it is, so I advise, for maximum enjoyment, to see it that way

It is contradictory to state the design intends for players to specialize their weapons for one thing, but that Turbine "gives" players the "option" to build flexibly.

I don't mind the "investment," I mind the manner in which I have to invest given the current system, and I mind the lack of creative thinking behind it after all this time that the game has been out and the massive amount of threads in the community on the subject.

Everyone wants a more creative, more immersive system for any grind. However, those take time to develop, and more attention to properly balance and debug.

Timesinks are there to fill the gap between the time it takes to develop content, and the time it takes to consume it. If you spend all your time improving your timesinks, then you dont actually get new content, you just get a new timesink every update That's Farmville. Or, at its most extreme logical end, Progress Quest...

If your point is is that the LI system works great as is, then I am most happy to disagree with you and leave it at that.

The LI system works great for what it was meant to do. I know that doesnt always mesh with what many people think it should do, hence all the threads on the topic. However, I think the way it works is better for the overall health and balance of the game than how people expect it to work, because it maintains an equilibrium of power:investment that's about where it should be, IMO.

I've seen games (HGL) where itemization flaws led to power creep that became full-blown power inflation and ruined endgame. I had a gun Templar built around shrapnel procs that could literally just run through Stonehenge mowing monsters down at a full run. It was fun for a while but soon, it was like, whats the point anymore?

Envoyé par droid

Well you also only have 2 LI slots to fill, not 7 armor slots and 6 jewellery slots. Each one of those takes at least a RHS to fill, which is worth about 1/2 a GSoE (~600 vs 1200 Marks IIRC). If you're grinding out a full set of raid armor, thats a whole lot of medallions and seals plus the time to do the instance cluster at least once to unlock it. And then however many more raids/instances it takes to acquire the instance-drop jewellery you're after. Or, in cases like the Draigoch cloak or ToO necklace, you're looking at sinking even more time/value to acquire those items.

I get where psychologically it feels different with LIs, but in raw mathematical terms, LI investment per update is on par with your other gear, considering how much more effect upgrading your weapon has, compared to upgrading, say, an earring or your helmet.

It isn't laziness on my part. To me it really DOES feel different. I have ground out 6 Draigoch, 6 TOO (have seals for more, just don't want more at this point), and 8 moors pieces of armor. Lots of jewelry (3 full sets of Limlight, various raid pieces). TOO necklace (though no clasp for it yet). While the ToO necklace has a vaguely similar "built it" feel, the personalisation and investment of an LI feels very different to me.

And the 2 LI slots isn't true for many characters. Captain? 4 at least. RK? 5-6 most likely (healing, lightning, fire). As I said, it isn't the armor or jewelry that has stopped me from wanting to build my alts, it is the LIs. So for me at least, big difference...

Envoyé par droid

Consider the balance implications...right now, the game is balanced around an "average" of two Second Agers with moderate legacy investment. Anything more than that puts you "ahead of the curve" when it comes to monsters. If you manage to get two maxed out FAs, you're significantly more powerful than you "need" to be to do the content at the intended difficulty.

Is this instance play balance or open world PvE balance?

I ask because I thought open world PvE was balanced for quest / crafted gear, and that would be, for the most part, Third Agers. I've had exactly one Second Ager on one character that's level appropriate, and that one was passed to an alt from the epic in Dunland, since it was pretty useless to the character who earned it. All the rest of my LIs are Third agers. I doubt I'll ever see a First Age because I don't do the instances / raids that would allow me to get one. I would very much hope Turbine isn't basing open world PvE balance around Second Agers.

Envoyé par ElanMorinTedroni

It's the reset to zero of *every aspect* of the LIs *every time* (every three levels to the cap, then one functional at the cap, then one best-case 3rd ager, then a 2nd ager or three, then maybe a first ager) that makes these things such a pain. Like I've said before, it would be like your Virtues resetting to zero with each expansion.

Agree completely, even though I'm basically only working with Third Agers. The system as it is makes me want to blow through content to get to level cap without "wasting time" leveling an LI I know is garbage and will throw away soon anyway. The only advantage I have in this regard is having leveled up so many LIs over the years I've accumulated quite a lot of XP tokens. Now that those can be shared, it makes it less painful level alt LIs, but still painful.

I'd very much like the LI system to be redrafted such that they can be improved without being replaced. However, I tend to agree with the rest who say that given the tie-in of LIs to the Store, such an eventuality is unlikely.