If your swordsmith is a Farmer, then he's also a Scholar. Their is a Tier 7 Farming recipe that grows the flowers you need for making dyes, so it feeds your Scholar skills.
But the point is we should be able to choose. I can't imagine a Hobbit growing up to be a farmer ... and a swordsmith. We should be able to choose the three professions we feel best fit our character, not be arbitrarily forced into 3 because we really want ONE. I like being a scholar and a swordsmith. I would also like to be an armorsmith. It's not a good system to assign 3 professions that don't go well together.
But the point is we should be able to choose. I can't imagine a Hobbit growing up to be a farmer ... and a swordsmith. We should be able to choose the three professions we feel best fit our character, not be arbitrarily forced into 3 because we really want ONE. I like being a scholar and a swordsmith. I would also like to be an armorsmith. It's not a good system to assign 3 professions that don't go well together.
You may not think it's a good idea, but it was set up that way on purpose. The intent was to foster interdependence. There is the minor fly in the ointment that the interdependence it encouraged has largely been between alts on single accounts...but then, Turbine has always tried to encourage grouping of all sorts and met with resistance from the players, either overtly or--more often--covertly.
In any case, it is extremely unlikely that Turbine will change this short of a total redesign of the crafting system. (AC2 Crafting 2.0, anyone?)
Please. It feels very WRONG for my mythically talented Swordsmith to also be a ... farmer. It's immersion breaking.
Read the following. It explains why an Armsman knows more then just crafting blades.
"Armsmen are capable of crafting any weapon their fellow adventurers might ever need, so this is an excellent vocation for anyone who relies on their fighting abilities. An Armsman is proficient in mining and smelting, but will need to trade for wood with which to make bows, spears, and the like."
To be an Armsman is a weighty responsibility. The armies of the Free Peoples are ever in need of quality blades to match the numbers and ferocity of the enemy.
An Armsman has three skills of note - processing metal, forging metal weapons, and crafting wooden weapons. An Armsman will find it easiest to practice the forging of metal weapons, since they can also Prospect their own materials.
Many of the crafting Professions are interdependent, or more correctly, dependent on a particular Profession other than their own. This feature of the crafting system is by design and is intended to foster development of the crafting community.
It is common for Production Professions to be dependent on Gathering Professions. For example, a Metalsmith relies on a Prospector to gather Ore and refine it into metal bars that are essential for metalsmithing. A complete list of dependencies for Production Professions is included below.
You may not think it's a good idea, but it was set up that way on purpose. The intent was to foster interdependence. There is the minor fly in the ointment that the interdependence it encouraged has largely been between alts on single accounts...but then, Turbine has always tried to encourage grouping of all sorts and met with resistance from the players, either overtly or--more often--covertly.
In any case, it is extremely unlikely that Turbine will change this short of a total redesign of the crafting system. (AC2 Crafting 2.0, anyone?)
--W. H. Heydt
Old Used Programmer
Yes, but it doesn't produce grouping most of the time. I have talked with my kin about this very subject and out of a kin of over 500 members, 90% say that they just have a low level alt to supply what their main professions need and don't group with anyone else for crafting, they only group for skirmishing!
BTW, I put that question to a Turbine Developer, here on these forums, a year or so ago ... & the Dev said, basically, "That's a good question, & we're working on it." But nothing has changed, & I'm still just as independent as I ever was.
So, if the intent was to foster "inter-dependence" than IMO that intention was not fully implemented.
Fare you well ... let your life proceed by its own design
Nothing to tell ... let the words be yours, I'm done with mine.
Yes, but it doesn't produce grouping most of the time. I have talked with my kin about this very subject and out of a kin of over 500 members, 90% say that they just have a low level alt to supply what their main professions need and don't group with anyone else for crafting, they only group for skirmishing!
Umm... I *did* say that the kind of interdependence that got generated was alts on single accounts.
BTW, I put that question to a Turbine Developer, here on these forums, a year or so ago ... & the Dev said, basically, "That's a good question, & we're working on it." But nothing has changed, & I'm still just as independent as I ever was.
So, if the intent was to foster "inter-dependence" than IMO that intention was not fully implemented.
Originally, some Tailor recipes required polished gems to complete, just as some Woodworking recipes (like crossbows) had metal parts. Due to "popular demand" those sorts of interdependencies were, by and large, dropped.
The historian indeed lacks reason for the combination (in the same way as I'm still not clear why a tinker is a cook). But the Scholar (wich is the main reason people would pick the historian) produces most items without outside help besides fireworks and dyes. According to some I just named the two most difficult vocations.
I am against making the crafting professions a free "pick whatever you want". The main reason is that people are mostly lazy and will pick what is convinient. So in the end there will be very popular crafting professions and very unpopular ones. The end result would be that some items would be very hard to get.
The second reason is that it tempts you to think outside of the box. I'm a Tinker (prospector, jeweller, cook) and had no love for the cooking part. So at first I did what was suggesed and ignored it was there. After I maxed out jeweller and prospector I decided however to give it a try. I even rolled an alt farmer (historian) to help me provide with materials. To my own surprise im starting to like it. The positive by effect of having the alt is that im getting intriged by the captain class and I'm considering to use it for more then only crafting after I get bored of my main (loremaster). So again the game forces me to think out of the box. It is not forcing me however to act in a way I don't want.
The historian indeed lacks reason for the combination (in the same way as I'm still not clear why a tinker is a cook). But the Scholar (wich is the main reason people would pick the historian) produces most items without outside help besides fireworks and dyes. According to some I just named the two most difficult vocations.
I am against making the crafting professions a free "pick whatever you want". The main reason is that people are mostly lazy and will pick what is convinient. So in the end there will be very popular crafting professions and very unpopular ones. The end result would be that some items would be very hard to get.
The second reason is that it tempts you to think outside of the box. I'm a Tinker (prospector, jeweller, cook) and had no love for the cooking part. So at first I did what was suggesed and ignored it was there. After I maxed out jeweller and prospector I decided however to give it a try. I even rolled an alt farmer (historian) to help me provide with materials. To my own surprise im starting to like it. The positive by effect of having the alt is that im getting intriged by the captain class and I'm considering to use it for more then only crafting after I get bored of my main (loremaster). So again the game forces me to think out of the box. It is not forcing me however to act in a way I don't want.
No the game makes you think whichever way Turbine lets you think! Crafting vocations are poorly thought out and Turbine are just too lazy or stuck in their ways to change them. For example take Historian (Scholar - Farmer - Weaponsmith). Having a useless Weaponsmith profession tagged on does tempt me to develope it, as I already have the Weaponsmith profession on my Armsman character, who has Prospecting to supply him with materials, so my Historian will never ever use it!
I NEVER gain anything from or supply anything to the Weaponsmith profession, it is useless to me. My Historian gains some materials from Farming, but only rarely as they are not common materials and I can spend hours farming to find very few materials that I need. However I do gain large amounts of materials from a Prospector from one of my alts. So why doesn't Turbine remove the Weaponsmithing and give me Prospecting? And please don't quote the tired old reason that Farming supplies more at higher levels, since over 90% of my materials are not gained from any particular profession, they are just picked up as loot or found by the scholar himself. Also, form a lore perspective, can anyone really find it even remotely possible that a single character can not only be qualified as a Scholar, manages to find time to also be a Farmer and yet still manages to develops the muscles and skill necessary to be a Blacksmith specialising in weapons. Meanwhile the Metalsmith, a full-time Blacksmith making armour is unable to make weapons, but can sew intricate and delicate items and make carpets for his house?
The inconsistencies in crafting are hardly subtle in this game are they?
It does not, however, explain the connection between an Armsman, a Farmer, & a Scholar.
Depends if you are looking at it purely from a game mechanic standpoint or semi realistic standpoint. I was watching the reality series "Mountain Men" where the people who choose to live in harsh environments are extremely adept in multiple skills that provide and allow them to survive.
It was quite common in days of old and even now for those in remote areas to have a garden to supplement their food stuffs, as well as an alternate trade to delve into during off times or when their primary trade is not in direct need. So it's now winter and the village smith is not as much in demand, he also won't be farming as well and will be shut in a bit more due to the weather. Why not dabble in some craft he can perform inside? Scholar seems to fit?
But the point is we should be able to choose. I can't imagine a Hobbit growing up to be a farmer ... and a swordsmith. We should be able to choose the three professions we feel best fit our character, not be arbitrarily forced into 3 because we really want ONE. I like being a scholar and a swordsmith. I would also like to be an armorsmith. It's not a good system to assign 3 professions that don't go well together.
When a hobbit can even be a 'mythically talented Swordsmith' to begin with then immersion's already gone out the window. Didn't the notion strike you as at least a little odd? The game's arbitrarily granting an 'impossible' opportunity with one hand, and limiting it somewhat arbitrarily with the other. If you genuinely want it to be more immersive, then be careful what you wish for because by rights hobbits should be really rather bad at making swords or armour. No call for that in the Shire, you see.
For what it's worth, I agree that some of the interdependencies are contrived but with a limited set to choose from, there were bound to be some odd combinations. The principle is sound, in game terms at least.
Inter-dependence has a supply side and a demand side.
Farmers supply materials demanded by Cooks & Scholars (particularly Tinkers, who have cooking, but no profession to support it).
Prospectors supply materials demanded by Metalsmiths, Weaponsmiths, and Jewellers (particularly Historians, who have weaponsmithing, but no profession to support it).
Foresters supply materials demanded by Tailors and Woodworkers (particulary Armsman, who have woodworking, but no profession to support it; and Armourers, who have tailoring, but no profession to support it).
As an Explorer, you're mostly on the supply side - giving wood to woodworkers and refined ores to smithing professions.
Let's face it, the crafting system is a mess and the reason why so many players have alts who do nothing but craft. My friend has 5 characters, only one of which actually leaves the crafting area. The other 4 are only ever used when he wants a new piece of equipment and none are above level 20. Meanwhile his main character is an explorer and has only crafted enough at any level to open the gathering ability for the next level. Good advert for crafting system isn't it?
Meanwhile to keep my character supplied I just scrapped any idea of crafting anything and just supply myself from skirmish traders and don't do any crafting myself as I got fed up with the useless 'interdependencies'. Sadly it has no difference to my gameplay and I have never missed it! What a shame, when crafting could have made such a difference to the gaming experience if only it had been better thought out.
Last edited by podgie_bear; Jun 10 2012 at 12:25 PM.
Let's face it, the crafting system is a mess and the reason why so many players have alts who do nothing but craft. My friend has 5 characters, only one of which actually leaves the crafting area. The other 4 are only ever used when he wants a new piece of equipment and none are above level 20. Meanwhile his main character is an explorer and has only crafted enough at any level to open the gathering ability for the next level. Good advert for crafting system isn't it?
Meanwhile to keep my character supplied I just scrapped any idea of crafting anything and just supply myself from skirmish traders and don't do any crafting myself as I got fed up with the useless 'interdependencies'. Sadly it has no difference to my gameplay and I have never missed it! What a shame, when crafting could have made such a difference to the gaming experience if only it had been better thought out.
For a comparison... I have 13 characters. 10 of them are level 75. *All* of them are Westfold Master of at least 2 of their crafting skills, and most are WM in all 3. *All* of the are Master of the Guild in their primary craft.
So...the crafting system may be "broken" for *you*, but that doesn't mean it's "broken" for everyone.
Historian makes sense from a practical standpoint and within the game lore. Scholars utilize farming for practicality because many of their recipes require common ingredients that can be grown themselves. And since much lore goes into the skill of crafting ancient blades, Historian's can use their knowledge to excel in this art.
Vocation: Historian
Professions: Scholar, Farmer, Weaponsmith
Historians are the caretakers of lore and legend that the forces of light dare not forget.
Historians are unique in that they have access to the Scholarly arts, allowing them to research ancient lore and use their discoveries to the advantage of their fellows. In addition, a Historian has the more practical talents of cultivating land, and forging the blades that are so often spoken of in the histories they study.
then only be a swordsmith, don't be a farmer. Immersion requires pretending, just pretend that part doesn't exist.
Actually,it makes perfect sense, except that Weaponsmiths should also be able to make tools, like Metalsmiths. A good farmer is able to repair/make his own tools. He could also "beat plowshares into swords" as the saying goes. Also, I personally know a great football player who happens to be nearly world class in chess. They don't have to be implicitly related. Some farmers are terrible cooks, yet Yeoman's do both. This is how the crafting system was set up. Rather than simply exploding their system, do you propose a solution? Allowing us to select our three professions while maintaining a single guild might be interesting...
Originally, some Tailor recipes required polished gems to complete, just as some Woodworking recipes (like crossbows) had metal parts. Due to "popular demand" those sorts of interdependencies were, by and large, dropped.
Yes, indeed. So, IOW, the Explorer profession went from having negligble "interdependency" to "none whatsoever."
I agree with the OP. If nothing else, I'd love to see Turbine totally re-vamp crafting.
Fare you well ... let your life proceed by its own design
Nothing to tell ... let the words be yours, I'm done with mine.
But the point is we should be able to choose. I can't imagine a Hobbit growing up to be a farmer ... and a swordsmith. We should be able to choose the three professions we feel best fit our character, not be arbitrarily forced into 3 because we really want ONE. I like being a scholar and a swordsmith. I would also like to be an armorsmith. It's not a good system to assign 3 professions that don't go well together.
scholor uses farming for a lot of the goodies u can make silly comment
I agree with the OP. If nothing else, I'd love to see Turbine totally re-vamp crafting.
This is one of those "be careful what you wish for" items.
Yes, a complete revamp has the potential to produce a really good system. It also has the potential to produce an incredibly poor one--much worse than what we have now. To Turbine's credit, when they did a crafting system revamp in AC2 (producing Crafting 2.0), they came up with a pretty good system. However, everyone had to--essentially--start over again building up their skill. Existing crafting skills got point credit for what they'd done before, but that credit didn't get anyone very far.
If Turbine were to redesign crafting in LotRO, I would want to see a great deal of detail on the design, with hard numbers on the conversion from one system to another, long enough before implementation that changes--even radical changes--could be made before it went live. Since Turbine keeps development very close to the collective vest, that would be extraordinarily unlikely to happen--and (therefore) I would would be extremely nervous about any such revamp.
Historian makes sense from a practical standpoint and within the game lore. Scholars utilize farming for practicality because many of their recipes require common ingredients that can be grown themselves. And since much lore goes into the skill of crafting ancient blades, Historian's can use their knowledge to excel in this art.
Sorry, what? Historians making swords? Scholars farming? It's madder than a box of frogs. And then there's you saying that it must be okay because the game says it is; circular argument is circular.
Whatever else, the thing about sword-making is that it's a skill you can only master through a great deal of practice over many years, having first patiently learned the art (it's not a mere humble craft) from a master. Not by reading about it, which is what makes the historian angle so contrived.
Originally Posted by Ardineck
Actually,it makes perfect sense, except that Weaponsmiths should also be able to make tools, like Metalsmiths. A good farmer is able to repair/make his own tools. He could also "beat plowshares into swords" as the saying goes.
Beating ploughshares into swords, rather than the other way around? Only if you wanted to make truly awful swords.
It's also funny, if farmers should be able to make all their own tools then what were blacksmiths needed for?
Originally, some Tailor recipes required polished gems to complete, just as some Woodworking recipes (like crossbows) had metal parts. Due to "popular demand" those sorts of interdependencies were, by and large, dropped.
Their are still recipes of many tiers that require items from totally different professions.
My tailor just made some items that require polished gems. Also, my Woodworker made some that require metalworker items. The inter-dependencies still exist.
Sorry, what? Historians making swords? Scholars farming? It's madder than a box of frogs. And then there's you saying that it must be okay because the game says it is; circular argument is circular.
Whatever else, the thing about sword-making is that it's a skill you can only master through a great deal of practice over many years, having first patiently learned the art (it's not a mere humble craft) from a master. Not by reading about it, which is what makes the historian angle so contrived.
It does make sense in Lotro. Maybe not in your mind but in lotro it does. Indeed sword crafting is a skill. And indeed if you don't practice you will never learn how to craft high level things. Which is why the Historian can not make swords at all unless he chooses to train that skill.
Last edited by enginekid; Jun 11 2012 at 03:38 PM.
It does make sense in Lotro. Maybe not in your mind but in lotro it does. Indeed sword crafting is a skill. And indeed if you don't practice you will never learn how to craft high level things. Which is why the Historian can not make swords at all unless he chooses to train that skill.
There you go again... as if it something must somehow make sense just because someone stuck it in a game.
Sorry, what? Historians making swords? Scholars farming? It's madder than a box of frogs. And then there's you saying that it must be okay because the game says it is; circular argument is circular.
Whatever else, the thing about sword-making is that it's a skill you can only master through a great deal of practice over many years, having first patiently learned the art (it's not a mere humble craft) from a master. Not by reading about it, which is what makes the historian angle so contrived.
Beating ploughshares into swords, rather than the other way around? Only if you wanted to make truly awful swords.
It's also funny, if farmers should be able to make all their own tools then what were blacksmiths needed for?
Let's pretend you're right here. Where exactly do you expect the suspension of disbelief to begin? Because I can get all my armour and weapons repaired by a person who sells potions (all kinds, sometimes in the middle of a war torn area) almost instantly. Should that be changed? Bowmen drop punctured shields. Were they carrying them or visible? Someone wants to buy these from me in bulk? You have decided that your immersion stops when a scholar (who is supposed to be clever and learned, no?) can make a weapon? I would say that makes perfect sense. He can't understand farming though? Do you have only one skill? If that's the case, then I do feel sorry for you. I can do many different things. In the game, we're only allowed to be a master in one guild. Recipes already don't carry over if you "forget" your profession to start a new one. Exactly how is even selecting our own second or third professions going to solve that immersion problem for anyone other than you?
You can certainly ask for something selfishly, but acting as if there are no plausible reasons why this exists in this game is like asking how a minstrel can boost my morale at such varying levels. It's a game. It's set in this universe created by an author. Sam shows great courage in battle, but he's a great cook and knows farming as well. Does that mean all hobbits are so? Have you ever worked with metal? Yeah, a blacksmith would be great, but do we then need to wait for him to finish all the projects he has because I want my sword done...and do you want to have that edge honed after every battle and not just once in a while? How about reducing the effectiveness of the blades? Do you want that changed, too?
I'm not trying to pick on anyone, but let's get real here. Those who want things changed have valid reasons, but those that think it's okay have just as valid reasoning. There's no way either group can claim superiority.
Let's pretend you're right here. Where exactly do you expect the suspension of disbelief to begin? Because I can get all my armour and weapons repaired by a person who sells potions (all kinds, sometimes in the middle of a war torn area) almost instantly. Should that be changed? Bowmen drop punctured shields. Were they carrying them or visible? Someone wants to buy these from me in bulk?
Stick to the subject. Oddities of drops are one thing, oddities of how the crafting system is set up quite another.
You have decided that your immersion stops when a scholar (who is supposed to be clever and learned, no?) can make a weapon? I would say that makes perfect sense. He can't understand farming though? Do you have only one skill? If that's the case, then I do feel sorry for you. I can do many different things. In the game, we're only allowed to be a master in one guild. Recipes already don't carry over if you "forget" your profession to start a new one. Exactly how is even selecting our own second or third professions going to solve that immersion problem for anyone other than you?
All I was getting at is that I find the way some of the crafts are grouped together is rather weird, that's all. I get very weary of hearing people present the way this game does things as if it were all inevitable, no matter how quirky it might be.
Being clever and learned doesn't always go along with the ability to make things. There is no direct association: you can be hugely learned but be a complete klutz when it comes to anything practical.
You can certainly ask for something selfishly, but acting as if there are no plausible reasons why this exists in this game is like asking how a minstrel can boost my morale at such varying levels. It's a game. It's set in this universe created by an author. Sam shows great courage in battle, but he's a great cook and knows farming as well. Does that mean all hobbits are so? Have you ever worked with metal? Yeah, a blacksmith would be great, but do we then need to wait for him to finish all the projects he has because I want my sword done...and do you want to have that edge honed after every battle and not just once in a while? How about reducing the effectiveness of the blades? Do you want that changed, too?
Sorry, what? You're veering off again. All I'm saying is that a 'Historian' vocation doesn't really sit naturally with crafting weapons. The reason is simple: poring over dusty ancient books and scrolls can't tell you how to make a good sword, as that's a practical skill which has to be handed down from generation to generation. Nor does it really go with farming, of all things. But still some people pretend it makes 'perfect sense', on no apparent basis other than it's in the game like that and so it just must somehow be right. Excuse me if I don't consider that to be particularly valid reasoning.
No, you weren't just saying one thing. I'm not veering off. I directly addressed your points as opposed to the vague way you dismissed the opposing view. In order to make my point, I drew a parallel. If you don't allow examples like that, I can't figure out how we're supposed to discuss the ways you suspend your own disbelief and then others where you claim it is broken.
It is clear you want a line drawn where you want it. That's fine. What's not is implying that your line is the only one of any consequence. I don't think simply saying that's the way it's always been done is right, either. Give a reasonable solution and it shall be heard.
As for being learned, of course it doesn't imply that being learned means you will automatically be skilled. I guess you've forgotten that all characters have to "practice" a set amount of times in order to make the higher level gear. Those familiar with author Malcolm Gladwell might recall the "10000 hours" approach to mastering something. Adding up all the tiers of crafting experience doesn't quite get us there (just about halfway), but they continue to add tiers. It thankfully doesn't actually take us that long to learn it, either. Again, it doesn't just "happen", even in this game. I do actually know people that can read a manual and then go about doing something right away. Maybe that's not the way you learn. People do learn differently, but for the sake of continuity, that's the way that Turbine has set it up. I actually think the crafting profession could be improved, but I thought that might be where this thread could head, rather than simply claiming the way they've got it set up makes no sense. It may not make perfect sense, but if we allowed people to choose anything, wouldn't there be even odder combinations possible? What exactly is it that you want changed?
A weaponsmith might be a good farmer. Saying that makes no sense makes less sense than implying that it's impossible or even improbable. I do wonder how a weaponsmith wouldn't know how to work with his metals (prospector profession). There is a profession that includes it, but which do we switch out from the historian? I'd think adding a forestry profession wouldn't be great, but perhaps switching cooking in that profession for the jeweller's cooking skill would make more sense (whereas a scholar mixing ingredients would know how to mix them in a kitchen setting, perhaps). That creates another farming/cook pairing, but then a yeoman tailor?
Those are the kinds of questions that could be discussed.
Well i for one like the crafting system as it is, i think its relatively well designed and the interdependence works really well with every person I've met in crafting halls and my kin...
To me LOTRO is an MMO-RPG, without the other people its just and RPG and if you want to play it like that fine, but i like my community and like my crafting system.
Perhaps the option isn't to unlink professions but to create new vocations that better suit groupings?
I agree I never liked the historian grouping, but I was never keen on the tinker (cook) or woodsman (farmer) or explorer (tailor) grouping either.
Here are a few other ideas:
Outfitter: Jeweller, Prospector, Tailor - makers of fine jewellery and fine clothing/armour Huntsman: Forester, Woodworker, Cook - variation on Woodsman able to hunt and cook the catch, create camp-fires etc. Explorer (revamp): Forester, Prospector, Cook - I just feel Cook would be more useful to an Explorer than Tailor. Alchemist: Prospector, Scholar, Cook - can make potions and has the brewing skills for other concoctions (Cook); Prospector would give understanding of base metals. Apothecary: Farmer, Cook, Scholar - giving a full understanding of making, and creating potions, food and other concoctions (this vocation might be too self sufficient though) Labourer: Farmer, Forester, Cook - variation of Yeoman, more manual labour orientated with the swapping of Tailor to Forester.
Well i for one like the crafting system as it is, i think its relatively well designed and the interdependence works really well with every person I've met in crafting halls and my kin...
To me LOTRO is an MMO-RPG, without the other people its just and RPG and if you want to play it like that fine, but i like my community and like my crafting system.
QFT
I feel the exact same way. And I think the devs responsible for lotro crafting should get a pat on the back. They really did do a great job.
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