Thread: What justifies calling this an "expansion"?

Ah, Moria came wirh 30 days of subscribtion time, when it first came out.

Originally Posted by StavroMuellerBeta

So because some choose to go with a cheaper option, those who pay for VIP should be double-dipped for cash?


The level cap is free too. Unless they stopped the epics at 75, or stopped giving away new epics for free, there's really no way for them to get around that.

Yes VIPs should have thier wallets forcabley removed and drained of cash /scarasm

As an premium player I can honestly say VIPs have been ripped off for some time now, but that is just my opinion. With the new model I think VIPs should have all content available to them without paying for it (As a rental type) expansions included. After all you are providing a good monthly flow of cash to turbine.

You are my favorite poster, Stavro.

I wonder if I can give you rep

An expansion is when the level cap goes up. An update is when the level cap doesn't go up. That's the only consistent difference.

The good news is we can protest this.

Don't pre-order. Don't buy it until it's half off with turbine points.

I've been to every forum I can think of telling people this, and directing them to many threads here.

Youtube, Reddit, Twitter, you name it. The only way turbine is ever going to change is that they get enough bad publicity so that it drives sales down.

That 10 ton hammer article was a good step, as it's rare to see a major website call a company out.

Originally Posted by josh13333

So, the statement that said that the instance cluster would be included with RoR was incorrect. If we have to pay for it after, then it's clearly not part of the expansion at all.

What does this mean?

A. It means that Turbine has found a way to make a even worse situation than RoI! Not only are people angry about the price(as seen by the 20+ pages of discussion), the lack of instances at launch(didn't think they could pull that one again after RoI, I was wrong), but now we are probably going to have to pay thousands of turbine points for instances set in ROHAN(IE, the region of this so called expansion)

B. Since those instances will most likely not be free, they can't be classified as expansion content. They are seperate content. So what does that leave us with this "expansion"? Normal quests, daily quests that won't even be in at launch, and mounted combat. Does that sound like an expansion to you?

I know many of you remember when Moria launched. That expansion was AMAZING. So much content. Instances, classes, quests, atmosphere. That was the peak of this game. When SoM came out, there were rumbles of discontent. Yes, it was smaller, but it has quite a few instances and skirmishes, so that was still called a expansion by most people here. Then the fiasco of RoI hit. The anger was something I'd never seen before. Everything that could possibly be screwed up was. What manged to save it for many people was that we did get instances, and they did come with the expansion. But now? Nothing. And you'll be charging us later for what we do get. The anger and disgust now is greater than RoI by so large a margin.

We are paying 40 bucks for a quest pack! Who in the world over there thought in any way that it would be acceptable to launch an expansion with ZERO instances? Can you name any other serious mmo that has done that and been succesful with it? I can't.

I supported you through RoI. I thought you maybe would have learned some things from it. But in reality, all you've learned is how to give us less content for more money, and to enrage your playerbase in a way I never thought possible.

The past few days I've said yeah, I'm sure I'll buy it anyway. But no, no more. I will not pay 40 dollars for your quest pack and then pay 15-20 more bucks in turbine points that should have been included all along. I"m simply not doing it. Maybe if I see a 50% off sale I'll pick it up, but you can forget about that preorder I was going to do.

I don't know if any of you have heard of the MMO Troll on youtube, but he used to do weekly lotro coverage. After a while when the armor in the store thing hit, he stopped doing it as a protest at turbine's broken promises. I unsubbed him because I thought that turbine would never sink any lower, and I didn't feel the same way. But now I realize he was right. He was completely right. You did sink lower. Far lower than I thought possible.

And if you do decide to give it to us with the expansion, it won't matter. Because you've shown your intention by saying "Oh, we aren't completely sure yet".

Don't worry, this is the last rant I'll clog the forums with for a good long while. I've never been one to post negatively much, and I won't keep it going after this. Because I see now that it really doesn't matter what we think. It doesn't matter how much anger or frustration you get, because you really don't care. I'm sure the devs do, but I have a feeling that the corporate types overrule them quite often.

I'm perfectly open to people pointing out why I'm not justified in feeling this way if you feel the need.

Au revoir, Turbine.

~Josh

I agree completely, since moria Turbine has steadily offered us less content for a higher price. The 70$ legendary edition is totally ridiculous in my opinion, most complete games don't even cost 70$. For the most part I have tried to stick up for turbine but this expansion is a complete debacle.

Even when it was released Siege of Mirkwood was considered a little light on content, but at least we got skirmishes, a raid and an instance cluster. Furthermore Siege of Mirkwood was much cheaper, if I recall I paid twenty dollars for it. It's really sad to see how far down hill the quality of LOTRO's expansions have gone. A few years after mirkwood we have no new raid, no new instances, and it will cost more than twice as much as SOM... Even Isengard gave turbine points.

Since Isengard expansion I got the feeling that turbine has been probing it's player base, seeing how far they can push people before they start losing players, this expansion seems to justify that assumption.

I recently occurred to me that with a license renewal coming up in 2014, it could be that Turbine is only planning 2 more major expansions: Gondor and Mordor. So they will milk, squeeze, and scheme as much money out of as many suckers as they possibly can until then. Who knows what will happen in and after that time....

I'm off to renew my sub to Rift (2 lifetime lotro accounts) and will be buying GW2. I think that, while neither of those are middle-earth nor Tolkien, I am sure I can find my Tolkien fix elsewhere (books, movies ect) and get my gaming fix from the two just mentioned.

Originally Posted by knowfere

I recently occurred to me that with a license renewal coming up in 2014, it could be that Turbine is only planning 2 more major expansions: Gondor and Mordor. So they will milk, squeeze, and scheme as much money out of as many suckers as they possibly can until then. Who knows what will happen in and after that time....

Either through buying the licenses directly or buying every company that holds a license, every possible digital/screen license is under WB's control, which I doubt is a coincidence. After paying $160 million to get the license and micro-transaction tech (the alternative being they paid $160m for two dying games and two dead games), I think any renewals are a given, at least for the duration of the hype surrounding the upcoming movies.

WB may eventually move the trilogy license to another subsidiary, as it appears they have already done with The Hobbit, but that would be completely independent of any contract renewal/expiration with SZC.

Originally Posted by knowfere

I recently occurred to me that with a license renewal coming up in 2014, it could be that Turbine is only planning 2 more major expansions: Gondor and Mordor. So they will milk, squeeze, and scheme as much money out of as many suckers as they possibly can until then. Who knows what will happen in and after that time....

I'm off to renew my sub to Rift (2 lifetime lotro accounts) and will be buying GW2. I think that, while neither of those are middle-earth nor Tolkien, I am sure I can find my Tolkien fix elsewhere (books, movies ect) and get my gaming fix from the two just mentioned.

I'm almost sure they will keep it going until 2017. I'm thinking

2012-West Rohan
2013-East Rohan
2014-Minas Tirith and Osgiliath
2015- Ithillian, Dead Marches, Dagorland
2016- The Black Gate, Minas Morgul, Cirith Ungol
2017- Mount Doom

And the end.

Originally Posted by josh13333

I'm almost sure they will keep it going until 2017. I'm thinking

2012-West Rohan
2013-East Rohan
2014-Minas Tirith and Osgiliath
2015- Ithillian, Dead Marches, Dagorland
2016- The Black Gate, Minas Morgul, Cirith Ungol
2017- Mount Doom

And the end.

Interesting speculation but you've got a couple of things backwards:

2012- East Rohan (Riders of Rohan) not West Rohan
2013- West Rohan and Helm's Deep

WB and Turbine will keep this game going until it is no longer profitable. Then and only then will they hit the off switch and bring LOTRO to an end. A Turbine exec said in a recent interview that they would like to carry the game into the Fourth Age. Only time will tell what's going to happen.

Originally Posted by Catisa

Expansions include a level cap increase. Quest packs do not.

I agree that expansion include a level cap increase and RoR certainly meets expansion criteria on this one point. However, the expansion by that definition is free as you do not need to spend money to have access to the level cap increase.

The product Turbine want us to buy which they label 'expansion' is not actually an expansion at all - it includes no level cap increase. Same was true for ROI.

ROI and RoR are both quest packs as they do not include features of an expansion. Even including instances in the 'expansion' product does not make it more than a quest pack as there are several quest packs in the store which have instances in them - some even contain raids e.g. Enedwaith.

The only way Turbine can regain their integrity towards their customers is to acknowledge that the expansions themselves are free (all expansion-like features are not part of the product they are selling). So VIPs should have full access as part of their subscription and Premium / F2P players need to buy as they do all quest packs and instances but I won't hold my breath...

Originally Posted by Grieyls

Well I'm VIP too and so I get them for free too, well relatively speaking of course. In a way its about time we VIP customers got a bonus

I hope this is true. I certainly think the VIP subscription is lacking in substance. I have gone from being a Turbine supporter (back pre-F2P and even during the first few months of F2P) to being a Turbine cynic. We don't have any information yet so can't know one way or another, however my concern is that the instance cluster will not be 'free' to VIPs.

My basis for this is that the ROI instances were planned as part of an update but were only available as part of the expansion. The RoR instances may be 'free' to VIPs who have bought the expansion but that still means the VIP has to first of all pay a silly amount of cash for the expansion / quest pack itself.

If Turbine make it so that VIPs get the instances irrespective of whether they have purchased the over-priced quest pack I will be pleasantly surprised.

I cannot fathom this way to handle the matter. They are hurting their reputation, they are hurting their owners, they are hurting the community with the current style. People WILL leave over this matter, and some of them could be retained by a proper advertising.

I think the marketing strategies being employed by Turbine since F2P are turning players away and it is reaching the point of mass exodus simply because so many players have been 'hanging' in there hoping for change. It is a sad state of affairs when players leave due to marketing moreso than the game itself.

Originally Posted by Vandervahn

I think you´re lumping things together a bit there. The things you name are, yes, free, but they still constitute expansion content. But Turbine chooses to make this available for free - which many other games dont. That was and still is commendable..

Any paid for product by definition cannot include something that is free to everyone. Tubrine making certain features free to everyone is great - but they cannot at the same time 'sell' those features as part of a paid for expansion.

Originally Posted by Khafar

However, if this does turn out to be an RoI-sized expansion for $40, I may very well just pass. If Turbine is that out of touch with customer desires, they don't deserve more of my $$.

This sums it up really. I haven't been on the forums for the past months, but coming back I am really shocked at how many players who stood by Turbine with ROI are now expressing their own dissatisfaction. This is something Turbine really needs to take note of - they are losing an increasing number of supporters and advocates.

Originally Posted by GalateaOrea

Based on the FAQ, it appears that the only thing that purchase of the RoR expansion gets you is the quest pack and another 10 levels. And here I am assuming that you cannot level past 75 if you don't buy the expansion, but that could be wrong. They could be allowing players to level past 75 without purchasing RoR.

Fair assumption to make based on pre-F2P expansions. Unfortunately it is incorrect. Since F2P the increased level cap is available to everyone whether they buy the 'quest pack' or not.

Originally Posted by Tarmas_Eldar

An expansion is when the level cap goes up. An update is when the level cap doesn't go up. That's the only consistent difference.

That used to be the case. The thing to remember is that Turbine no longer sells expansions for the game, they sell quest packs. Turbine needs to change their marketing for RoR and any other additions to the game. What they are selling is not an expansion, it is a quest pack. Why is that you may ask? All players will have access to the level 85 cap, the landmass and war steeds with one skill without buying RoR but no quests in the region with exception of the epic quest line. The Mines of Moria was an expansion that you purchased. What makes MoM different that RoR? For MoM there was a physical block that you couldn't get past unless you had purchased the expansion. I understand Turbine's new ways they are trying to increase profits, but they need to change the terms that they sell under to avoid this confusion and provide better information.

instances are part of expansion preorder cost, there will be solo repeatable instances at luanch and full ones near end of year

^They´re not included in the price. This was a mistake in one of the FAQs and has been denied by both Sapience and Celestrata now.

Originally Posted by SalionOfBrothers

Ah, Moria came wirh 30 days of subscribtion time, when it first came out.

In Europe the 1 free month was NOT included.
Playing one month of Moria in Europe cost you $40 for the expansion + $15 for a month of subscription. Most people played Moria for longer than that, raising the total cost of playing Moria to over $100 and even $200 if you played it for a year.

Originally Posted by Lyzau

In Europe the 1 free month was NOT included.
Playing one month of Moria in Europe cost you $40 for the expansion + $15 for a month of subscription. Most people played Moria for longer than that, raising the total cost of playing Moria to over $100 and even $200 if you played it for a year.

Well then I stand corrected, for the EU at least. Hmm, would this then make Codemasters more evil than Turbine in this one case????

Originally Posted by CGDrakken

Turbine's definition of "expansion" is now we have increased the landmass, if you require anything else, ie: quests, instances, etc., please see the LOTRO store for all your needs.

I guess the new stuff they said they are trying in the Massively interview is everything that used to be part of an "expansion" is now being sold piece meal at top dollar. It's really quite a shame, I was hoping that this one would be the return to glory for Turbine after RoI. Guess not.

You won't need the store for instances if you have a sub. I do feel for F2P players if they are being nickeled and dimed but if you have a sub nothing has really changed. SoA launched with no raid and people were angry about that but we ended up having Helegrod and the Rift which was well worth waiting 6 months on.

Originally Posted by Jeffor

You won't need the store for instances if you have a sub.

Where do you see that? Because it looks like going foward they are going to be a separate purchase from this post http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...04#post6219804. Given they don't say anything about if you have a sub but given what has been going on lately I don't think it will matter, but we will see in time. Turbine should be planning a FAQ update with new information.

Sorry if someone said this already, but....this again? What WOULD constitute an expansion for some people?

Originally Posted by josh13333

If we have to pay for it after, then it's clearly not part of the expansion at all.

We're not actually sure yet if we have to pay for instances. Premium players will most likely since they've chosen an ala-carte model. But I suspecting that VIPs won't have to. So far since F2P all new content has been either open to all VIPs or required an expansion, and I haven't seen signs that this is changing. It might happen of course, this is only the second expansion since F2P so Turbine could still be working out how the hybrid model works with expansions.

Why they don't have instances at launch? Same old problem: someone in marketing demands expansions by a due date once a year. MMOs are not allowed to just finish content before releasing it, the players won't let them. We have two groups of players who complain about content: those complaining that they don't release fast enough and those who complain that they release before things are ready.

Originally Posted by Celebrawn

Sorry if someone said this already, but....this again? What WOULD constitute an expansion for some people?

The problem is that expansions don't mesh in well with a free-to-play/subscriber hybrid model; especially now that Turbine has essentially made a firm decision that level cap is the same for all players and that all players can enter any zone even wo purchasing expansions.

In one sense this is a great move. It doesn't discriminate against players who didn't buy the expansion and lets them poke around. More flexibility. There really aren't that many players who seriously demand that these freebies stop being free.

So what's left in an expansion in this model is pretty small. Quest packs and instances and maybe other extras if they ever add new classes or races (probably never on races, very unlikely with classes). And with the model this means _everything_ in the expansion will be available with Turbine points.

If someone really doesn't like it being only a quest pack then isn't the solution obvious? Don't buy the expansion and instead wait until release and then purchase it with TP...

It's not necessarily the model I like though. I'd rather see something where VIPs get everything as part of subscription, even expansion content; but purchasing expansion gives you 2 to 6 months access to it before it's opened up to everyone as well as giving you actual quest packs (in case you drop down to premium).

Originally Posted by Lohi

So what's left in an expansion in this model is pretty small.

Then it should be priced accordingly. A pretty small expansion in your own words, a pretty high price tag. See the problem there?

Originally Posted by Celebrawn

Sorry if someone said this already, but....this again? What WOULD constitute an expansion for some people?

I am interpretting your comment as an expansion in terms of what the paid product contains. I will use Mines of Moria as a comparison example as no one doubted its legitimacy as an expansion. I will leave out the Lothlorien content that was introduced later to avoid arguments about whether it was expansion related or free content update since even without including Lothlorien Moria was a good sized expansion in its own right.

Instances & Groups
By the time Moria was released the devs had moved away from landscape questing that required 6 man groups. Three man content had only recently been introduced in limited form prior to the release of MoM and so MoM continued to take us down that path. There was also the introduction of 3-man and solo daily repeatables.

There were a few landscape areas in the Mines with quests based on 3-man groups and I got the impression this went down well at the time. The 6-man instances in Moria were not just level cap, they started from level 54 (Forgotten Treasury) and had a whole load of quests attached to completing them. This was well thought out on devs part as it provided a partial levelling option for those who prefer group play to solo.

Character Development: Legendary Items
The infamous legendary system was introduced with Moria and without buying Moria it was not possible to access it or get a legendary item. Whether we like, love or hate the legendary item system, it has without a doubt had a huge impact on how classes can be played and has become a core part of our character development for both end-game content and normal landscape questing.

Character Development: Introduction of Trait Lines*
Moria also included full class revamps to work in the new trait system. This included introducing the trait lines, opening three new class trait slots and an additional legendary slot, adding new traits to the game (including capstone / legendary), replacing some traits for some classes and giving everyone three capstone traits to work towards (one gained by completing the epic, one from completing their class quest and one from getting kindred with rep faction).

Prior to Moria there were no trait lines, no cap stones and less traits. The introduction of these trait lines and capstones has made a big impact on the versatility and personalisation of how each class can be played.

Major Development: New Classes
I am not suggesting for one moment that new classes are a requirement for an expansion but the introduction of the Rune-Keeper and Warden were a major development in the game which is why I am including it here. Expansion introduce major developments in the game.

Other Stuff
Wow I could go on and on but I won't. Stuff not discussed above (that I can think of now) includes level cap increase, new region, two new class slots, a whole new crafting tier including introduction of the crafting guilds, new epic... no doubt some stuff I can't remember too. All of this was exclusive to those who purchased the expansion.

I would also like to note that at the same time as Moria's release Eregion was released as a free content update for subscribers which included some interesting daily instances and the 3-mans that have since been made classics as well as additional storage space (in game not store) and a complete revamp of the combat mechanics. If I remember correctly there were also changes to inventory introduced at this point to help us with bag space.

Moria wasn't all good and I am not speaking here with rose tinted glasses. Players quickly found ways to exploit the instances, there were complaints that Moria was too DPS-centric, the combat mechanics took a while to get right and there were some pretty major class balance issues. MoM wasn't perfect but what it contained was substantial and there was no way anyone could turn around and say 'but all we are paying for is a quest pack'.

I think the point of an expansion is that it is a large content release, exclusive to those who purchase it, where there is something for everyone. There needs to be lots of diverse quests for those who just like questing and to solo, there needs to be group content (even if there isn't an instance cluster) for those who enjoy grouping on their travels (3-man landscape content or instances), there needs to be crafting development for the crafters etc. In addition there needs to be new innovation introduced to the game whether free or not.

The fact is that Turbine gives so much away for free players that it is struggling for content to justify the price of the expansion. As an expansion ROI was light on quests and characters have to take the same linear route through the region. This really lessened RoI's replayability so I hope RoR will be different in this respect.

The only decent thing for Turbine to do at this stage is to give the quest pack to VIPs for free on the same basis as SoA content (so if VIP drops to Premium they still have to buy). They may call it a big quest pack but this does not justify sticking the label 'expansion' on it just so they can charge VIPs. I think VIPs are still happy to buy actual expansions in addition to their subscriptions - but it needs to be an expansion and not a glorified quest pack. How much 'real money' Turbine can charge for the quest pack is a different issue entirely but not relevant to your question.

*While the trait system was implemented (by necessity) across the game irrespective of whether the player had the Moria expansion I am still including it as part of the paid for product since players could not access the capstone traits or open up more than five trait slots without buying the expansion - so what they had access without purchasing was still very limited.

An expansion: the act or process of expanding.

2. The state or quality of being expanded.

3. The amount or degree of expanding.

4. An expanded, dilated, or enlarged portion or form of a thing (In this case, LotRO)

Number 4 would be the best choice to describe a game expansion. An addition to the world, an extension to the franchise in that it extends the story and the world. So YES in simple terms it is an expansion.

-Tails-

Originally Posted by Tailborn

Number 4 would be the best choice to describe a game expansion. An addition to the world, an extension to the franchise in that it extends the story and the world. So YES in simple terms it is an expansion.

As far as I am aware the question wasn't asked in 'simple' terms but in 'mmo' terms. By your definition every content update is an expansion.

Originally Posted by Tailborn

4. An expanded, dilated, or enlarged portion or form of a thing (In this case, LotRO)

Number 4 would be the best choice to describe a game expansion. An addition to the world, an extension to the franchise in that it extends the story and the world. So YES in simple terms it is an expansion.

That definition also perfectly describes Great River, or indeed Enedwaith, both of which were new areas with new epic books, yet were free* to subscribers and described as updates rather than expansions.

I stand by my previous comment that the only thing currently differentiating an 'expansion' (which you have to pay for) from an 'update' (free to subscribers) is that in an expansion the level cap goes up. We've had game mechanics changes, new features and new areas - all things previously reserved for expansions - as free updates. All that's left is the level cap.

I also, by the way, concur with the observation above that the paid-expansion approach doesn't really work with the hybrid F2P model we now have. Either non-purchasers are denied access entirely (as was initially the case with Moria and Mirkwood), or expansion purchasers effectively end up buying a quest pack (as is the case with Rohan).


* Yes yes I know it's not 'free' in the sense that we pay subscriptions, but you know what I mean.

Originally Posted by UnlikelyBeing

This sums it up really. I haven't been on the forums for the past months, but coming back I am really shocked at how many players who stood by Turbine with ROI are now expressing their own dissatisfaction. This is something Turbine really needs to take note of - they are losing an increasing number of supporters and advocates.

I agree, but they may be putting more emphasis on extracting $$ out of short-term customers since the volume of those is much higher. I think that would be a mistake, but there was quite a lot of last year's development effort that wen't toward stuff they sell in the Store. Yes, subscribers buy stuff in the Store, sometimes above and beyond their stipend. But at least in DDO, only 1 in 5 subscribers spent extra $$ for TP... the vast majority of Store revenue must be coming from Premium players.

Anyway, I paid $50 for the RoI expansion, and my extra $20 basically got me some cloaks and mounts that I don't use a whole lot. This time, I won't be paying anything at all - just using up some of the major piles of TP I have sitting around. Getting the expansion and the 6th bag will cost me maybe 40% of my remaining stockpile of TP, so here at least are some Store items I'll actually get .

Turbine will learn lessons here, based on what players do (not so much what they say). I expect that the next expansion will cost less in $$, and more in TP.

Khafar

Originally Posted by Tailborn

An expansion: the act or process of expanding.

2. The state or quality of being expanded.

3. The amount or degree of expanding.

4. An expanded, dilated, or enlarged portion or form of a thing (In this case, LotRO)

Number 4 would be the best choice to describe a game expansion. An addition to the world, an extension to the franchise in that it extends the story and the world. So YES in simple terms it is an expansion.

Here are some more simple terms

Overpriced, adj. priced too highly

Limited, adj. confined within limits; lacking breadth

Lacking, adv. having a deficiency or need (of something desirable or necessary)

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

Here are some more simple terms

Overpriced, adj. priced too highly

Limited, adj. confined within limits; lacking breadth

Lacking, adv. having a deficiency or need (of something desirable or necessary)

Nice + rep

Originally Posted by UnlikelyBeing

By the time Moria was released the devs had moved away from landscape questing that required 6 man groups.

This happened after Moria. This didn't really take off until the Lone Lands revamp. The landscape quests for the most part did not vanish unless the zone was revamped, except for some few cases. Dol Dinen is still a fellowship area today.

I can't think of any explicit three man content from before Moria. Parts of Goblin Town were doable in a small fellowship as well as some other areas depending on your skill, but you weren't limited to three people max. The first 3 person instances were in Eregion which was released simultaneously with Moria.

Prior to Moria there were no trait lines, no cap stones and less traits.

We actually had trait lines before Moria except that most players ignored them. Ie, there'd be something called "line bonus" as I recall. The bonuses were very weak and not very well described, so people chose traits based on the traits themselves and not whether it got them a set bonus. So there was a bit more variety with builds than you saw after Moria. After moria running with a 2/2/1 build or even 3/2 would get you labeled a noob.

Also note that much of the stuff you describe was available to all players even if they did not buy the expansion. All players had to use the new trait system. All players would start to lose access to landscape group quests. All players got access to Eregion and three person instances.

With free to play as well as change to the game style though this is all irrelevant. All players get their level cap raised, all players get access to all zones, all players get access to the epic quest line in all zones, all players get legendary items, all players get all new game systems. So what "expansion" means in this new model has changed quite a lot since nothing is gated behind expansions anymore.

Ie, if you want a 6th bag then everyone can by it separately and it is not a part of the expansion. Everyone gets access to mounted combat from what I can tell, it is not gated behind the expansion (because you'll need it in the epic quest line which is not gated). There's nothing left for an expansion to be except a quest/instance pack. Even then $40 is still not a bad price considering the size as described. People are perfectly free to wait a few months after release until the quest pack is on sale if they want.

Originally Posted by Tarmas_Eldar

That definition also perfectly describes Great River, or indeed Enedwaith, both of which were new areas with new epic books, yet were free* to subscribers and described as updates rather than expansions.

It also applies to Forochel and Evendim and Eregion, both zones added without requiring additional purchases; additionally Angmar and Misty Mountains and Trollshaws were expanded without requiring purchase of an expansion.

I really wish level cap had nothing to do with expansions, because we've had too many level cap increases and it messes up the game world badly (I'm soloing Carn Dum now, three people taking out the Balrog, etc). Some people love the ding when a level but it's not necessary to game play and we shouldn't all have to suffer just so people can keep score.

I think it is also reasonable to consider the "expansion" to be everything which comes (at no additional cost) between it's launch date and the next expansion.

Thus, I consider the RoI 'expansion' to include Great River and the Orthanc instance cluster, neither of which were present at launch. Similarly the RoR 'expansion' includes everything I get between Sep 5 2012 and the next paid-for expansion around the same time in 2013.

I don't mind paying $70 for that, though I recognise that this is an eye-watering price for many. My personal concern is that the $70 is *not*, in fact, going to cover everything between Sep 5th 2012 and Sep 5 2013. If I am asked to pay once more for additional content - the instance cluster - then I honestly don't know if I'll stay with the game. It's not the cost - the money itself is trivial to me - but the breach of trust would be such as to make me consider whether this was a company I wanted to do business with anymore.

Originally Posted by Tarmas_Eldar

I think it is also reasonable to consider the "expansion" to be everything which comes (at no additional cost) between it's launch date and the next expansion.

Thus, I consider the RoI 'expansion' to include Great River and the Orthanc instance cluster, neither of which were present at launch. Similarly the RoR 'expansion' includes everything I get between Sep 5 2012 and the next paid-for expansion around the same time in 2013.

I assume you're more referring to the perspective of a VIP player... and in that sense, I would have to hope that access for VIPs to these later-released instances would simply be included. It seems like a similar situation to what was done with those Enedwaith-related "In Their Absence" instances, I suppose.

From the perspective of a premium player, like myself...Well, those areas are arguably associated with that expansion in the sense that they're release timeframe is close, but really that's it.

VIPs got access to Great River and all of that, but it's not technically part of the expansion for anyone. If you stopped being a VIP, you'd still have access to ROI if you bought it and would have to buy Great River separately. Unlike Great River, I got the Orthanc instances for free as a premium player because I bought the full expansion.

On some level I get this as I'm a premium player, but I find it hard to correlate the two areas as part of the same expansion given that.

So really, it's more a question as to whether or not these instances will be free to VIPs... which I guess could be inferred, but no one knows yet. Even though I'm not a VIP, I would hope they were at the very least included for VIP subscribers. It only seems fair.

Originally Posted by semjaza

I assume you're more referring to the perspective of a VIP player...

I am. In fact, as a lifetimer since 2009. So yes, my perspective is dictated by that. From my point of view I pay once a year - a lump sum for the expansion - and that covers all the content I get for the next year. So $70 doesn't seem so much. I can blow that easily on a night out, never mind a year of gaming. That's why the prospect of paying extra for the instances doesn't dismay me from a financial perspective, it dismays me because it makes me feel as if I'm being taken for a ride.

Originally Posted by Tarmas_Eldar

I am. In fact, as a lifetimer since 2009. So yes, my perspective is dictated by that. From my point of view I pay once a year - a lump sum for the expansion - and that covers all the content I get for the next year. So $70 doesn't seem so much. I can blow that easily on a night out, never mind a year of gaming. That's why the prospect of paying extra for the instances doesn't dismay me from a financial perspective, it dismays me because it makes me feel as if I'm being taken for a ride.

Well said! Sums up how I feel.

Originally Posted by Tarmas_Eldar

I am. In fact, as a lifetimer since 2009. So yes, my perspective is dictated by that. From my point of view I pay once a year - a lump sum for the expansion - and that covers all the content I get for the next year. So $70 doesn't seem so much. I can blow that easily on a night out, never mind a year of gaming. That's why the prospect of paying extra for the instances doesn't dismay me from a financial perspective, it dismays me because it makes me feel as if I'm being taken for a ride.

At the same time, couldn't you argue that $10 to $15 a month you pay for VIP covers that? Unless you're Lifetime in which case I'm just jealous lol

Originally Posted by semjaza

At the same time, couldn't you argue that $10 to $15 a month you pay for VIP covers that? Unless you're Lifetime in which case I'm just jealous lol

I am a lifetimer, I said so in the quote you used

And yes, exactly the same argument applies to a monthly VIP subscription.

Originally Posted by Lohi

This happened after Moria. This didn't really take off until the Lone Lands revamp. The landscape quests for the most part did not vanish unless the zone was revamped, except for some few cases. Dol Dinen is still a fellowship area today.

You missed the point completely. My point was that Moria was a step away from having 6-man landscape content - none of my post was relevant to revamping old content.

Originally Posted by Lohi

I can't think of any explicit three man content from before Moria. Parts of Goblin Town were doable in a small fellowship as well as some other areas depending on your skill, but you weren't limited to three people max. The first 3 person instances were in Eregion which was released simultaneously with Moria.

The first 3-man content was actually introduced with the Epic line prior to Moria (I guess you could count Goblin Town, but since its open-world instance its open to interpretation). However my point was that Turbine made their first major step towards landscape 3-man content in favour of 6-man landscape content. I am of course referring to the original Moria and not the revamped version (which I haven't seen). For example, there was a Morrovail area that had several 3-man quests. As far as I can recall there was no open landscape 6-man content in Moria.

Originally Posted by Lohi

We actually had trait lines before Moria except that most players ignored them. Ie, there'd be something called "line bonus" as I recall.

The 'line bonus' you were referring to were a completely different concept to the trait lines introduced with Moria and in no way negate the point that an entire new trait system which was far more dynamic and diverse was introduced with the expansion.

Originally Posted by Lohi

Also note that much of the stuff you describe was available to all players even if they did not buy the expansion. All players had to use the new trait system. All players would start to lose access to landscape group quests. All players got access to Eregion and three person instances.

Everything I mention in my post was available only to players who bought the expansion except for the bit I described below where I state that it was part of a free content update which was released at the same time;

I would also like to note that at the same time as Moria's release Eregion was released as a free content update for subscribers which included some interesting daily instances and the 3-mans that have since been made classics as well as additional storage space (in game not store) and a complete revamp of the combat mechanics. If I remember correctly there were also changes to inventory introduced at this point to help us with bag space.

I also acknowledged that the trait lines were free and why I still included them as part of the paid Moria package;

*While the trait system was implemented (by necessity) across the game irrespective of whether the player had the Moria expansion I am still including it as part of the paid for product since players could not access the capstone traits or open up more than five trait slots without buying the expansion - so what they had access without purchasing was still very limited.

Originally Posted by Lohi

With free to play as well as change to the game style though this is all irrelevant. All players get their level cap raised, all players get access to all zones, all players get access to the epic quest line in all zones, all players get legendary items, all players get all new game systems. So what "expansion" means in this new model has changed quite a lot since nothing is gated behind expansions anymore.

I disagree. Yes, the F2P has changed the game style, however this does not impact on what those who purchased Moria at the time of its release got for their money *at the time*.

What expansion means in the new model is 'quest pack' and therein lies the problem. With Turbine's new model of F2P and giving so much free to all players, they have made genuine expansions as a product to be purchased impossible. If they are not gating anything other than quests (and even instances as plenty of quest packs include instances) then they need to accept that the expansions they release are free content updates and give the contents to VIPs as part of their subscription and allow premium players to purchase via the store (or with cash - I have no strong feelings on the 'how').

Originally Posted by semjaza

So really, it's more a question as to whether or not these instances will be free to VIPs... which I guess could be inferred, but no one knows yet. Even though I'm not a VIP, I would hope they were at the very least included for VIP subscribers. It only seems fair.

They certainly should be free to VIPs but so long as Turbine are sitting on the fence and unwilling to confirm they will be free to VIPs I won't be counting on it. Turbine have done this before - they are just waiting to see what they think they can get away with and I find that really disturbing. There should be no question as to whether the instances will be free to VIPs.

Hi,
Not sure I'm asking this in the right spot. I'm a new f2p player. How much money is it going to cost me to play in Rohan? I am thinking about playing a hobbit hunter if that makes any difference.
Thanks in advance.

Originally Posted by ostlix

Hi,
Not sure I'm asking this in the right spot. I'm a new f2p player. How much money is it going to cost me to play in Rohan? I am thinking about playing a hobbit hunter if that makes any difference.
Thanks in advance.

I am pretty sure this isn't the right spot You say you are a new F2P player, are you new to lotro as well? If so I would completely ignore the RoR expansion and just start out with exploring the game which is the original SoA content (and some of the best content in the game). The starter areas are completely free so by the time you hit the lonelands (also free) you will have a better idea of what you want from the game.

You may want to look into Steam as I hear they have some kind of starter pack. Otherwise I would recommend subscribing for a month just to get the perks such as extra bag space - you keep these on active characters after you drop your subscription.

I am sure someone can provide some suitable links to forum threads aimed at new players or websites with guides for those wanting to go the F2P route in the game

Thanks. While new to this game, I'm not new to the f2p market. I'm just trying to estimate the cost before I make the time investment into this game. Don't get me wrong fighting in helm's deep is exciting, but I'm sure I can't get there for no money. I'll look into the steam game. Just seems like a lot of people complaining about money makes me weary to get invested in a game. From what I've heard about this game is that you basically run out of free content around level 20. So I need to know how much it costs to get from 20 to helms deep in Rohan. How many expansions do I have to get? What other things will I *need*?