Thread: Effective Might Ceiling

So while it is possible to stack might to around 3k-3.1k, that's not a very effective build - partly because it gimps everything else that matters, but also because diminishing returns kick in and make that much might rather redundant.

So, like the thread title suggests, how much might is an effective ceiling, above which is rather pointless for the current level?

And, for bonus points, where is that ceiling for 85?

Well, looking back over the notes from RoI's stat revamp, Outgoing Healing caps out at 50%. So, healing builds will want to stop once they hit that. Outgoing Damage, however, does not have a cap.

I'm trying to find updated formulas for the rating->percentage conversion now. RoI relaxed the diminishing returns, but I keep seeing the old formulas everywhere.

Originally Posted by furtim

Well, looking back over the notes from RoI's stat revamp, Outgoing Healing caps out at 50%. So, healing builds will want to stop once they hit that. Outgoing Damage, however, does not have a cap.

I'm trying to find updated formulas for the rating->percentage conversion now. RoI relaxed the diminishing returns, but I keep seeing the old formulas everywhere.

If the formulas are effectively linear, then their really isn't a ceiling, rather, the question becomes "how much might can you stack without sucking?".

In dps build i run around at little above 2300 might, with a good crit rating and a good meele rating.
Ofc Morale is not what it once was in this build (around 10k)

But i feel crits makes up for that as i get more heals instead.

(Ofc to that i can add foods and clickies and idome if slotted)

Managed to figure out the formulas by messing around with the old ones experimentally. The Outgoing Damage formulas are effectively linear, but include the target's level as a variable. The Outgoing Healing formula includes diminishing returns and has been tweaked very little from the old one.

(Side note: Tactical Healing Rating on our emblems doesn't seem to factor into the character panel stats display, so I have no clue how that works. It must be directly modifying our healing skill base output or something, because it has nothing to do with the Tactical Mastery -> Outgoing Healing conversion.)

Here's the spreadsheet I got, with a chart below (sorry, had to do an XY Plot, line chart came out wrong): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...WVVZm5jRkNRNHc



Notable fact is that Outgoing Healing caps at ~2900 Might at level 75, ~3250 Might at level 85. (To be more precise, at 29000 & 32500 Tactical Mastery, respectively.) Outgoing Damage is effectively unbounded.

Of course, the "how much before you suck" question is more of an itemisation thing. I've seen the spreadsheets with item stats, but trying to graph all the many, many combinations of items is much harder. Could be possible just to sum up the highest possible Might/Mastery in every single gear slot and see what that does to the rest of your stats, though.

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...on-and-Offence.

^This here's still a relevant thread.

Personally, I build for set bonuses. I get the right sets for the current job, and I pretty much always keep my Martyr Bubble. The Martyr set gives me all the vitality I need (and maybe then some) so I build might and crit everywhere else (except virtues).

I run with True Settings of Ages and True Gems of Encircling Seas for both masteries, ICPR, crit. Four things on each one, thats more stats than I'd get from some Great River relic with 3 stats at slightly higher magnitudes. Its like picking up a lvl 79 quality teal over a lvl 82 quality purple.

Originally Posted by furtim

Notable fact is that Outgoing Healing caps at ~2900 Might at level 75, ~3250 Might at level 85. (To be more precise, at 29000 & 32500 Tactical Mastery, respectively.) Outgoing Damage is effectively unbounded.

Alas, I think your formula's may be a little out. Pretty sure my healers cap out at a shade above 27500 Tactical mastery, although I can't currently log on to check. I would be deeply surprised if it was different for captains.

Are we expecting the current caps to stay the same? The only data point I have is RoI as I started playing towards the end of mirkwood. Looking at your numbers I'm only have around 1-2% OGH to regain the cap which doesn't seem very much (By which I mean if I am just at the cap now, if I level to 85, I am at 48-49% in my lv75 gear). But perhaps my perception is skewed by the enormous jump in RoI.

maybe im not understanding...

-wouldnt a "floor" be more helpful? as in a minumum useful might and still be effective and not gimp other stats?

-are diminishing returns actually kicking in? is this part of the lvl cap? im a bit out of the loop on the xpac. i have seen no diminishing returns on might, as of now, up to ~2200.


edit: guess i should have kept reading, "If the formulas are effectively linear, then their really isn't a ceiling, rather, the question becomes "how much might can you stack without sucking?".

Originally Posted by 00CloughRN

Alas, I think your formula's may be a little out. Pretty sure my healers cap out at a shade above 27500 Tactical mastery, although I can't currently log on to check. I would be deeply surprised if it was different for captains.

It's possible my formulas are wrong. I derived them from experimentation, so it's very possible I missed something. Also, I couldn't see a difference with

However, keep in mind that diminishing returns kick in strongly well before you actually reach the cap. So the difference between 27500 and 29000 is not very much. 27500 gives 49%, 29000 gives 50.33%. The actual cap is somewhere slightly above 28500.

Originally Posted by SapienChavez

are diminishing returns actually kicking in? is this part of the lvl cap? im a bit out of the loop on the xpac. i have seen no diminishing returns on might, as of now, up to ~2200.

Based on my experimentation, the outgoing damage formula is linear, without diminishing returns, but the outgoing healing formula uses a very small tweak to the old rating->percentage formula and thus still includes diminishing returns.

If a recommendation can be derived from the above, it sounds like:

• LtC: Get as much might as possible:
• HoH: Get might/tactical mastery to get to 28.5k, and then fill with useful secondary stuff (morale, ICPR, crit, etc) - DPS doesn't matter as much in this traitline, so the secondary stuff will be more helpful than more might.

Sound about right?

Yup, I'd agree. I think the HoH diminishing returns is probably responsible for the logic behind the Menestaid set being based on Might/Fate. I don't recall the total amount of Might and Tact Mastery on Mene, but I wouldn't be surprised if you got pretty darn close to 28.5k Tactical Mastery after the Menestaid set and some Might jewelry. Once you even get close to that amount, you're getting much more benefit from improving your crit chance and magnitude (however small the latter effect might be) from Fate than from stacking more Might.

And with LoM, most of the time you're going to be stacking Vitality as high as you can instead, so you don't need to think about the Might curve's effect on healing. (Makes me wonder whether Phys/Tact Mitigation has a diminishing returns curve, though. Something to look into later, though I assume the Guard and Warden forums would already know about it.)

Edit: As for my thoughts on other stats... In LtC, Crit Rating should be as close to the 20/25% value as you can get it, even if you're not doing the Dagor/Pers Crit Cry build. Morale in either LtC or HoH should be at a minimum 5k with no buffs and no standard equipped. Anything less basically guarantees you will get one-shot. I might actually argue that should meet those two standards first, before stacking Might. Fortunately, I think all the end game gear is pretty good about that. Gallant Commander is low on Vit/morale, but it's easy to make up by subbing in a few crafted/Orthanc pieces or using good jewelry.

How far towards cap would dual Galtrev +Tactical Mastery LI Titles, Menestaid, and Exemplar's put you? Assume the captain has no stat tomes and no +might virtues.

Even a LTC Captain probably doesn't want to over stack Might. If you don't keep a decent amount of Agility, the DPS loss from from misses will exceed the DPS gain from Offense. My rough math suggests that you want Might to be 1.5 x Agility until your Agility is 750, at which point miss is negligible and you can go all Might.

Originally Posted by bastiat1

Even a LTC Captain probably doesn't want to over stack Might. If you don't keep a decent amount of Agility, the DPS loss from from misses will exceed the DPS gain from Offense. My rough math suggests that you want Might to be 1.5 x Agility until your Agility is 750, at which point miss is negligible and you can go all Might.

Cause all of the miss chance stuff is basically a black box to me, can you share your math?

The Miss Chance formula is hanging out with Threat values for various skills in "Here Be Dragons" territory. Everything we know about it comes from careful parsing and experimentation, but there are a lot of confounding factors.

The best anyone was able to figure out is that base Miss Chance is 10% or so against on-level mobs, and Agility decreases it at a rate of ~100 per -1% with a certain amount of diminishing returns. I think bastiat's recommended 750 Agility takes into account the 2% decreased Miss Chance passive stat on swords.

But we're going to need about that much Agility to get our Crit Rating up anyway. And actually that's one minor flaw in the Menestaid set. Fate does fine for giving Crit Rating, but it won't help with Miss Chance.

Originally Posted by furtim

But we're going to need about that much Agility to get our Crit Rating up anyway. And actually that's one minor flaw in the Menestaid set. Fate does fine for giving Crit Rating, but it won't help with Miss Chance.

If a captain is in a Menestaid/HoH build, then DPS is irrelevant - so that'd mean that the miss chance would be a non-issue.

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

If a captain is in a Menestaid/HoH build, then DPS is irrelevant - so that'd mean that the miss chance would be a non-issue.

DPS yes, but you still need to hit for Valiant Strike and Inspire, don't you? And I don't remember the order of operations for attacks, but I think you also need to hit first before the game determines whether you crit, meaning Miss Chance is still somewhat important if you want to trigger defeat events off of PA/DB.

One good trade for agi would be replacing say an Easterlings War Bracelet with Bracelet of Wrath's Hour. LI titles are easy, and would take one round of dailies to replace should you change your mind. Food. What else does an agi conscious captain have?

Originally Posted by furtim

DPS yes, but you still need to hit for Valiant Strike and Inspire, don't you? And I don't remember the order of operations for attacks, but I think you also need to hit first before the game determines whether you crit, meaning Miss Chance is still somewhat important if you want to trigger defeat events off of PA/DB.

But even with a 5% miss chance, that's only 1/20 hits that will miss, and 3% is getting close to 1/33.

There's a threshold where miss chance isn't zero, but it's low enough that it might as well be.

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

But even with a 5% miss chance, that's only 1/20 hits that will miss, and 3% is getting close to 1/33. There's a threshold where miss chance isn't zero, but it's low enough that it might as well be.

There are pretty good diminishing returns to Outgoing Healing also though. I don't feel super strongly about the Agility debate because the Captain isn't my main, but from a theory crafting perspective I think Agility is heavily undervalued. In a boss fight without a lot of adds dropping, the only Captain heal not gated by a hit is Words of Courage.

In addition to weapon titles, crafted relics and stat legacies are a good place to capture some Agility. I always go for the Agility ones over Might. One thing I would never do is roll against a Hunter or Burglar for Agility jewelry. If it rots in the chest that's one thing, but otherwise I try to find Agility in other places and roll for Might gear in runs.

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

If a captain is in a Menestaid/HoH build, then DPS is irrelevant - so that'd mean that the miss chance would be a non-issue.

can we miss our heals? i dont think i have ever seen it happen... but is it possible?

hey... can any tactical skill miss, in LOTRO? ive never really payed attention... i think ive seen my Routing Cry miss... then again, im usually really high when i play video games and sober when im talking about video games. make of that what you will, assuming you have a stereotype about stoners

Tactical skills can be resisted, but they can't miss. As for the melee heals failing to go off on a miss, I've never personally noticed it, but I also use swords and mostly get my crit chance from AGI. (Wish I could trust the my.lotro character readout for stats. It shows ~400 AGI on my character, but I'm fairly certain that's wrong, especially considering that it's not showing any of my gear for some reason.)

Originally Posted by SapienChavez

can we miss our heals? i dont think i have ever seen it happen... but is it possible?

hey... can any tactical skill miss, in LOTRO? ive never really payed attention... i think ive seen my Routing Cry miss... then again, im usually really high when i play video games and sober when im talking about video games. make of that what you will, assuming you have a stereotype about stoners

Melee heals can miss... vocal heals won't. Nor will buffs.
Valiant Strike missing is a huge issue, frankly.

Marks can actually miss. Was a big problem on Iorweth T2.

According to RK's and LM's... Tactical skills are not supposed to miss... Which is why those guys don't stack agility.
The trouble is figuring out what counts as a tactical skill. The resistance on the skill is not necessarily accurate.
Champ taunts can miss, a guard's ranged agro builder (Fray the edge) can miss, as can guardian challenge. And I don't mean be resisted, I mean actually 'miss'.
Those all count as 'Cry' type. Routing Cry is also Cry I believe... and can probably miss.
I'd love to know how agility makes my captain yell better... If anyone knows.

I know I'm rather late in the conversation but figured I could give answers to some of the questions regarding misses with tactical attacks and such.

Tactical attacks can and do miss but only on mobs which are higher than the level of the character doing the attack. Tactical attacks cannot miss on same level or lower level mobs. They can still be resisted but cannot miss. Agility does absolutely nothing for tactical attacks.

That said, Routing Cry and the captain marks are all tactical attacks. In the case of end game instances, many of the mobs are actually above the level of the characters who are in the instance. In the Orthanc raid, I think most if not all of the mobs in the instance are level 76 or higher so Routing Cry and your marks can miss. I've lost count of the number of times I had to make second and third attempts to put my mark on something because it missed.

It's also good to keep in mind that melee attacks against higher level mobs are going to miss more often no matter what you do. This is where having more than just a basic minimum of agility to get by is important. For level 75 mobs 750 agility is assumed to be the maximum needed to reduce physical miss chance as much as can be done. Because of that, most of the time you probably won't need that amount because 1-2% miss chance generally isn't going to be a make or break proposition. However, in instances such as Orthanc, you're going up against mobs higher than your level and the inherent miss chance penalty is going to be added to your normal miss chance. By going with a bare minimum amount of agility to get to say only 5% miss chance against on level mobs, that miss chance is going to be increased considerably especially against mobs like the bosses which are usually 2-3 levels higher than you. While you cannot do anything about the inherent miss chance from higher level mobs, you can minimize that by keeping your agility high enough that the normal penalties against on-level mobs doesn't become a factor or much of one.

It was already mentioned that for healing you need the crits on Devastating Blow and/or Pressing Attack to activate defeat events as well as just a normal hit with Inspire and Valiant Strike. I would consider it somewhat of a priority to focus on removing miss chance from the equation as much as possible without harming other stats especially since Inspire and Valiant Strike require a hit to activate the heals.

It's still relevant info to the thread, so no worries mate =)