Thread: Captain Power Issue

I am currently experiencing power issues. Let me explain my skill rotations, and let me know if I'm doing something wrong.

I use 3 perseverance and 3 ToO, that uses BoE to cut shadow's lament cooldown. I have about 3500 power, and 650 ICPR.

My rotation goes:

SL - DB - BShout - SStrike - BoE - DB - BoE

At this time, assuming it hit the first time, SL will be open again, and I can cycle this rotation continuously. CuttingAttack is worked in when SL misses.

My problem is that I am having mad power issues. In fact, if I don't slot Now for Wrath, I am simply out of power in the first minute of any boss fight.

What ICPR are you using? Where are you getting it from? (I use the best Morale relics.) Do you rely on LMs and pots? Should I use the power banner/buff?

Originally Posted by TheStormKing

I am currently experiencing power issues. Let me explain my skill rotations, and let me know if I'm doing something wrong.

I use 3 perseverance and 3 ToO, that uses BoE to cut shadow's lament cooldown. I have about 3500 power, and 650 ICPR.

My rotation goes:

SL - DB - BShout - SStrike - BoE - DB - BoE

At this time, assuming it hit the first time, SL will be open again, and I can cycle this rotation continuously. CuttingAttack is worked in when SL misses.

My problem is that I am having mad power issues. In fact, if I don't slot Now for Wrath, I am simply out of power in the first minute of any boss fight.

What ICPR are you using? Where are you getting it from? (I use the best Morale relics.) Do you rely on LMs and pots? Should I use the power banner/buff?

I think I'm on about 1100 ICPR (need to look at home). But ICPR isn't the only answer to your question if you are draining a 3500 pool in a minute. And LMs are not so good either, if they end up needing to focus more on the tank or healers power supply. And pots are a help, but not the only answer either (they give you what, 650 ICPR effectively, 1300/2 minutes)?

That said, you aren't mentioning blade brother/inspire, another good source of power? Or eating some nice pies before fights, to add a nice dose of ICPR. 10% melee skills power cost discount on LI? Cry cost legacy perhaps?

And yes, I find if I don't have Now for Wrath and don't have BB Inspire I can have power problems. I tend to have more power issues in HOH or and particularly LoM rather than LtC though, as I get enough crits for Now for Wrath to really pay off.

Most of my ICPR comes from one ~100 ICPR bracelet, and then stacking it in the relics - while high morale is nice, the T6 True relics tend to be the best bang for the buck.

LoM I need to chug power pots and I'm forced to run with the Victory Banner. As far as power problems in HoH, if Song Brother was working as intended....

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

LoM I need to chug power pots and I'm forced to run with the Victory Banner. As far as power problems in HoH, if Song Brother was working as intended....

In HOH I'm usually using Shield Brother when things are tough. Yes, if I can go to song brother for a while to get some power, very nice.... And yes, should be fixed so Song Brother is go-to HOH choice.

I notice that you didn't mention Defensive Strike in your rotation. The power heal is not 100% reliable and isn't very big, but keeping in mind how short the cooldown on that skill is you'll actually trigger it pretty frequently. Personally, once I see the BoE debuff on my target, I throw it into my rotation after every BoE and between SL/BS and PA/DB. It probably drops my DPS by a bit, but so does running out of power in the middle of a fight.

So my rotation looks like this: SL -> SS -> (PA/DB or DS -> PA/DB) -> BoE -> DS -> SL/BS -> Repeat.

Also, I've devoted three virtue slots to power pool and ICPR. I put in Wisdom, Patience, and Confidence (I think that's it). The other two are survivability, which I switch around based on whether I'm soloing or raiding. Innocence for raiding, Loyalty for soloing. And then the other Vitality virtue that I don't remember the name of. Fidelity?

I don't have Determination in there, despite conventional wisdom. The way I see it, I have tons of Might already from my gear, so the extra ~30 doesn't seem worth it. ICPR and, to a lesser extent, raw power are slightly harder to get on Might gear, so I'd rather get it that way. And also I haven't really ground it out past 10 yet, unlike the other ones I have slotted. Heh.

Originally Posted by furtim

I don't have Determination in there, despite conventional wisdom. The way I see it, I have tons of Might already from my gear, so the extra ~30 doesn't seem worth it. ICPR and, to a lesser extent, raw power are slightly harder to get on Might gear, so I'd rather get it that way. And also I haven't really ground it out past 10 yet, unlike the other ones I have slotted. Heh.

Good point. I likely need to re-evaluate virtues, because 2k might is the new 650 might/will.

Either way, that's still a better alternative than sacrificing might gear for fate heavy gear (especially since no might/fate gear exists outside the Menestaid set).

I'd also note that I have terrible power problems in the Moors if I'm traited for solo and fights go longish. I generally trait 5 red, Defiance, Strength from Within. That gives me no Now for Wrath, and I don't have a shield brother. If the fights go longish, I'm chugging power pots and can hit empty pretty quickly. That is even without the various power drains (flies, banners, etc) that can really make things bad. Grouped in moors it is fine, as I have now for wrath and also somebody to blade brother...

I run with a little over 1000 ICPR and have the melee and cry power cost legacies on my LIs. I never unslot NfW, but even in fights where I get unlucky with crits (using 1v1s in the moors as an example), I rarely ever run out of power even in really long fights agains WL (have had close to 10 minute battles) I generally can run them out of power and take them out in the end with only having to use 1 power pot and I use it when I am at half power (this was even before audacity gear). I use relics on my LIs for my ICPR since I haven't found any good jewellery pieces that have the stats I want along with ICPR.

NfW is such a powerful trait not only for the captain but powering the entire group, I know it is a hard decision since we do have a lot of really nice traits/trait lines to choose from. I am still a HoH captain and probably always will be, it suits my play style and when I have tried 1v1ing in the moors red line I did significantly worse than 1v1ing in HoH, which I know makes no sense but it is just how I have learned to play.

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Either way, that's still a better alternative than sacrificing might gear for fate heavy gear (especially since no might/fate gear exists outside the Menestaid set).

Yeah, and the Fate->ICPR conversion is really terrible past 200 Fate. Not worth stacking unless you're using it for Crit Rating in place of Agility, which is a bad idea unless you're a tactical class (due to being in melee, where we want AGI to improve our hit chance and Parry/Evade).

all my icpr is in the LI's, and relics.

-10% melee power costs is nice. Melee skills is where all my power seems to go. Not even sure cry power costs is worth it unless you're spamming woc... although i have it.

2x true setting of the ages (100 icpr, crit, masteries)
2x rune of the two trees

also just i put the crit relics w/ fate on my LI. Under 250 fate each point of fate is worth more than 1 icpr, so i'll take that.
And.. run at least 3 red, for more melee skills power reduction. Makes a big difference.

I dont know why you'd ever unslot NfW... it's way too valuable.

Originally Posted by TheStormKing

I am currently experiencing power issues. Let me explain my skill rotations, and let me know if I'm doing something wrong.

I use 3 perseverance and 3 ToO, that uses BoE to cut shadow's lament cooldown. I have about 3500 power, and 650 ICPR.

My rotation goes:

SL - DB - BShout - SStrike - BoE - DB - BoE

At this time, assuming it hit the first time, SL will be open again, and I can cycle this rotation continuously. CuttingAttack is worked in when SL misses.

My problem is that I am having mad power issues. In fact, if I don't slot Now for Wrath, I am simply out of power in the first minute of any boss fight.

What ICPR are you using? Where are you getting it from? (I use the best Morale relics.) Do you rely on LMs and pots? Should I use the power banner/buff?

Your problem is 650 ICPR. That is way too low IMHO.

Victory Banner can deffinitely help you in the short term. Trait it and it'll give give you something like 450 extra ICPR, that should fix most of your problems - though you are still going to run out on quite a few fights and going to need power pots. I would at least try to get your ICPR up to 1200.

Also, I would disregard the weird conspiracy against Fate on this forum. It can help also, as can those 65 True relics with ICPR on them - but sounds like you don't want to give up your morale relics so that may not be an option for you. Not sure. There is also some virtues that give ICPR. Might want to rank those up and use em.

Someone also mentioned the -10% melee power cost legacy. That was good advice also. That can help a lot. And if you plan on using Rally Cry a lot Now for Wrath is almost a necessity - so may wanna retrait that. If not, you are probably going to be running out of power no matter what you do.

Originally Posted by furtim

Yeah, and the Fate->ICPR conversion is really terrible past 200 Fate. Not worth stacking unless you're using it for Crit Rating in place of Agility, which is a bad idea unless you're a tactical class (due to being in melee, where we want AGI to improve our hit chance and Parry/Evade).

There really needs to be several Might/Fate gear pieces (outside of the Menestaid set), it'd solve the ICPR problem without costing you combat effectiveness.

To the OP.. I really dunno :s
I think you are doing something wrong.i use the same set as you and i dont have any power problems at all
I have like 3300 power and 890 icpr i think but still i dont use any of the braces with icpr.I mostly go red cap to get B-bro on me
for full effect.


Do you have the -10% power cost legacy? EXTREMELY useful for me tbh
and i get a -5% from 3 reds so a 15% in total is really useful

I run with 605 ICPR in my PvE build. With NfW traited and Inspire in your rotation power really shouldn't be an issue. There is the rare case where I'm forced to spam WoC and I can't get defeat responses where I will have a little power trouble, but that's very rare.

Red traited, you're gonna have power issues. Pretty plain and simple, not much you can do about it. But blue or rainbow I just can't fathom it.

I always know when I don't trait Now for Wrath. That is why it is always traited, it is a needed trait and should always be used. Now if you are having power issues with that trait slotted, you will need to work on your icpr. I usually run between 1200 and 1300 i think.

Originally Posted by discodanman45

I always know when I don't trait Now for Wrath. That is why it is always traited, it is a needed trait and should always be used.

Two comments:

1) if the comment above is actually true (and it MOSTLY) is, it represents a class design flaw. No trait should be needed for normal reasonable functioning. I think Now for Wrath is overpowered, and that Captain power management is a bit flawed for depending on it.

2) It isn't quite true that Now for Wrath is always a needed trait. I trait 5xred, defiance, and strength from within when soloing in the Moors. Soloing I don't usually die due to lack of power...

Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise

Two comments:

1) if the comment above is actually true (and it MOSTLY) is, it represents a class design flaw. No trait should be needed for normal reasonable functioning. I think Now for Wrath is overpowered, and that Captain power management is a bit flawed for depending on it.

2) It isn't quite true that Now for Wrath is always a needed trait. I trait 5xred, defiance, and strength from within when soloing in the Moors. Soloing I don't usually die due to lack of power...

I disagree.

It's only "needed" if you plan on using Rally Cry a lot. And to be honest, Rally Cry is such a powerful skill, especially when combined with the reduced CD Legacy, I don't think it's unreasonable that it requires a specific trait.

So I like the way it is currently, and don't feel that it's a "design flaw".

Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise

Two comments:

1) if the comment above is actually true (and it MOSTLY) is, it represents a class design flaw. No trait should be needed for normal reasonable functioning. I think Now for Wrath is overpowered, and that Captain power management is a bit flawed for depending on it.

2) It isn't quite true that Now for Wrath is always a needed trait. I trait 5xred, defiance, and strength from within when soloing in the Moors. Soloing I don't usually die due to lack of power...

Moors doesn't count. :P

Yeah, I can see that. However, in all current PvE content, the extra endurance (which the whole fellowship benefits from) provided by Now For Wrath makes it a dominant choice. I don't do PvMP, so I literally never unslot it. I mean, I may have, at some point, but if so that was probably by mistake.

Originally Posted by furtim

Moors doesn't count. :P

Yeah, I can see that. However, in all current PvE content, the extra endurance (which the whole fellowship benefits from) provided by Now For Wrath makes it a dominant choice. I don't do PvMP, so I literally never unslot it. I mean, I may have, at some point, but if so that was probably by mistake.

Yes, in PvE I always run it in HOH or LtC, solo or non-solo. Few times I've done LoM I'm in a quandry as the 2 non-LOM traits have WAY too many reasonable options.

Given that you and I (and many folks) basically always run it whatever they are doing, whatever their main trait-line, grouped or solo, suggests there is a balance issue to me...

Imbalance is not always a bad thing. Somtimes it's a GOOD thing. If all of the Captain's skills and abilities were perfectly "balanced" then nothing would ever stand out, and the gameplay would be bland and anything BUT exciting.

Rally Cry is a signature skill of Captains. In fact it reflects more accurately what this class is about more than anything else. We are meant to be leaders who inspire our group - and I can think of nothing that depicts this better than restoring the group's morale after slaying something. Similiar to how Aragorn inspired the morale of his faltering army by riding up and beheading Sauron's messenger in the books.

One of the highlights of my Captain career, and I still remember it to this day - was when I discovered what an awesome combo Now For Wrath/Rally Cry/and Rally Cry CD legacy was - and I would hate to take this away from other Captains. It's fun to find powerful new trait combos that can literally transform your entire Captain and put them on an entirely new level.

Is it "balanced"? Certainly not. But it is cool. It is fun. And that's way more important in my opinion, and deffinitely does not represent an example of poor design. Quite the opposite in fact, I would describe the Now For Wrath/Rally Cry combination as a triumph in design. And every character should have at least one of these signature combinations of abilities and traits that help define them as a class. And the loss of one trait slot to accomplish this is a very small price to pay.

Originally Posted by furtim

Moors doesn't count. :P

Yeah, I can see that. However, in all current PvE content, the extra endurance (which the whole fellowship benefits from) provided by Now For Wrath makes it a dominant choice. I don't do PvMP, so I literally never unslot it. I mean, I may have, at some point, but if so that was probably by mistake.

Maybe it's time Turbine just solidifies our power restoration abilities and put a PoT on Shield Bro Inspire, and back Now For Wrath into Rally Cry?

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

There really needs to be several Might/Fate gear pieces (outside of the Menestaid set), it'd solve the ICPR problem without costing you combat effectiveness.

Funny I 'm HoH and use song-bro and never have power issue and never bother looking for ICPR nor fate stats on gear, I don't even use regenerative food buff.

Originally Posted by Jeremi

Imbalance is not always a bad thing. Somtimes it's a GOOD thing. If all of the Captain's skills and abilities were perfectly "balanced" then nothing would ever stand out, and the gameplay would be bland and anything BUT exciting.

Rally Cry is a signature skill of Captains. In fact it reflects more accurately what this class is about more than anything else. We are meant to be leaders who inspire our group - and I can think of nothing that depicts this better than restoring the group's morale after slaying something. Similiar to how Aragorn inspired the morale of his faltering army by riding up and beheading Sauron's messenger in the books.

One of the highlights of my Captain career, and I still remember it to this day - was when I discovered what an awesome combo Now For Wrath/Rally Cry/and Rally Cry CD legacy was - and I would hate to take this away from other Captains. It's fun to find powerful new trait combos that can literally transform your entire Captain and put them on an entirely new level.

Is it "balanced"? Certainly not. But it is cool. It is fun. And that's way more important in my opinion, and deffinitely does not represent an example of poor design. Quite the opposite in fact, I would describe the Now For Wrath/Rally Cry combination as a triumph in design. And every character should have at least one of these signature combinations of abilities and traits that help define them as a class. And the loss of one trait slot to accomplish this is a very small price to pay.

Whole heartly agree with you there, and i would just add that specialisating a class by choosing some traits over other force some sacrifices and will always bring imbalance, actually imbalance is needed cause it's the main reason for grouping: to balance each one's weaknesses by the strength of other.

If turbine would make all the classes Power sufficient, even DPs and survivability, the game will be flatened and brought to the level of WoW kid candy easymode game.

Turbine has already made classes to much power sufficient, imo, in a way the LM aren't as desired as they used to be.

as for Song-bro ans shield-bro I always suggested that the HoH self Song-bro would apply to the captain, no matter what X-bro skills is used.
Inspire and SoW effect would remain determined by the bro-skill,...
...I would maybe make that the capstone traits of each line would change To Arm so that it will get the effect according to the cappy self buff instead of the bro skill used.

That way HoH would allow shield bro SoW +20% inc healing + healing inpire
while using the (song-bro) To Arm +25% outgoing healing.

LoM would then keep up the To Arm damage redux no matter the bor skill used and LtC would keep To Arm damage buff aswell no matter the bro skills used.

This would enforce role spec and preserve versatility, and remove some incoherence like Deed before Words uselessness when using song-bro.

Originally Posted by jeanperson

Funny I 'm HoH and use song-bro and never have power issue and never bother looking for ICPR nor fate stats on gear, I don't even use regenerative food buff.

But you're healing output's down because you don't have inspire as a heal (as completely non-sensical as that is for a HoH capstone build using the designated XBro).

Originally Posted by jeanperson

Whole heartly agree with you there, and i would just add that specialisating a class by choosing some traits over other force some sacrifices and will always bring imbalance, actually imbalance is needed cause it's the main reason for grouping: to balance each one's weaknesses by the strength of other.

If turbine would make all the classes Power sufficient, even DPs and survivability, the game will be flatened and brought to the level of WoW kid candy easymode game.

Turbine has already made classes to much power sufficient, imo, in a way the LM aren't as desired as they used to be.

as for Song-bro ans shield-bro I always suggested that the HoH self Song-bro would apply to the captain, no matter what X-bro skills is used.
Inspire and SoW effect would remain determined by the bro-skill,...
...I would maybe make that the capstone traits of each line would change To Arm so that it will get the effect according to the cappy self buff instead of the bro skill used.

That way HoH would allow shield bro SoW +20% inc healing + healing inpire
while using the (song-bro) To Arm +25% outgoing healing.

LoM would then keep up the To Arm damage redux no matter the bor skill used and LtC would keep To Arm damage buff aswell no matter the bro skills used.

This would enforce role spec and preserve versatility, and remove some incoherence like Deed before Words uselessness when using song-bro.

Yeah that's about how I see things too.

These forums seem almost obsessive at times, and there is a tendency to over-analyze and expect everything the Captain has to be perfectly balanced with everything and everyone - and that's a good recepi for boredom.

Strengths and weaknesses help define your character and class afterall, and one of the most appealing things to me about MMOs has always been the ability to create my own unique character - and that relies heavily on taking advantage of imbalances that exist to make your character stand out and enhance gameplay.

I also understand your point about power sufficiency. Rarely do I ever see loremasters used for that purpose anymore - with the exception of maybe the Saruman fight. Though I have to say, unless I'm using Song Brother on myself - power consumption was a real issue of mine and I had to make some sacrifices and come up with a few inventive ways to combat the problem. So while I see your point - and it is shared by others (especially that one Captain on here who always acts like the mere thought of anyone having power problems is so absurd lol). I have to say, from my own personal perspective, I do believe power is enough of a concern for Captains that we are forced to consider it and make sacrifices to deal with it.

About your ideas concerning capstones and how they currently relate to our Brother Skills, I'm neutral. I like the way it is - but I'd be open to making some changes.

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

But you're healing output's down because you don't have inspire as a heal (as completely non-sensical as that is for a HoH capstone build using the designated XBro).

Almagnus, it's not "non-sensical" for Song Brother's Inspire to restore power. It's just not. It makes perfect sense for the healing-line to have an effective power-restore tool for themselves.

And it also makes sense that using it would mean a downgrade in our healing - else it would be over-powered and we could simply stay in Song Brother 100% of the time enjoying endless power and top-notch healing. There is a "give and take" principle that must be applied, else gameplay would become repetitive and bland.

And to touch on Jean's earlier points - it's not a bad thing to encourage the use of different brother skills as the situation demands. That means more variety in gameplay, and that's never bad.

I'll never understand why you think trying to force Captains into using a single Brother Skill 100% of the time based on their traits is such a great thing. The capstones meerly provide a unique advantage to using certain Brother Skills - but they weren't meant to demand their usage 100% of the time and make all our other brother skills irrelevant. You put way way too much emphasis on that single sentence in our capstone description.

Originally Posted by Jeremi

I'll never understand why you think trying to force Captains into using a single Brother Skill 100% of the time based on their traits is such a great thing. The capstones meerly provide a unique advantage to using certain Brother Skills - but they weren't meant to demand their usage 100% of the time and make all our other brother skills irrelevant. You put way way too much emphasis on that single sentence in our capstone description.

Capstone => Used assigned brother skill most of the time (because of self-brother)

Non-capstone => Use whatever makes sense at the time.

Also, can you explain exactly why you say Song Brother is a Power Regeneration tool?

He says that because it's the only thing it's actually good for. However, that was definitely not the design intent of Song-Brother.

Originally Posted by furtim

He says that because it's the only thing it's actually good for. However, that was definitely not the design intent of Song-Brother.

Eh, was wanting to see his reasoning behind it...

Chances are we're going to get a quote or the response of "cause it is".

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Also, can you explain exactly why you say Song Brother is a Power Regeneration tool?

Because it restores power.
Good question, would answer again.

Originally Posted by DuneBug

Because it restores power.
Good question, would answer again.

But why a power tool instead of a healing tool?

Originally Posted by furtim

He says that because it's the only thing it's actually good for. However, that was definitely not the design intent of Song-Brother.

Interesting logic you have there Furtim.

A brother skill that excels at restoring power deffinitely was "not" designed to restore power according to you. That may make sense to you, but it deffinitely doesn't to me.

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

But why a power tool instead of a healing tool?

My uncle taught me that the best answer for someone when they ask you "why?" is "why not?"

But the more direct answer is simply because it is, just like you said it was. Same reason the sky is blue. It's just the way the Creator made it.

And in this case, Creator = Turbine.

It's designed to restore power because that's what it does... IT RESTORES POWER. So use it to restore power. Then be happy and enjoy being able to restore power.

Originally Posted by Jeremi

Because it is. Same reason the sky is blue. It's just the way the Creator made it

Nope, its blue cause of Rayleigh scattering. Blue colour in electromagnetic spectrum has short wavelength and because of that it is absorbed by gas molecules in sky, which scatter it in all directions. Just because you dont understand something, doesnt mean "Creator" made it. Unfortunately, because people used your way of thinking trough history we got such disturbing stuff like religion on earth today.

Originally Posted by KopachGrobova

Nope, its blue cause of Rayleigh scattering. Blue colour in electromagnetic spectrum has short wavelength and because of that it is absorbed by gas molecules in sky, which scatter it in all directions. Just because you dont understand something, doesnt mean "Creator" made it. Unfortunately, because people used your way of thinking trough history we got such disturbing stuff like religion on earth today.

Kopach, are you really tryign to start a religious debate with me over a Sky is Blue reference? lol...

I think someone missed the point.

Originally Posted by Jeremi

Kopach, are you really tryign to start a religious debate with me over a Sky is Blue reference? lol...

I think someone missed the point.

Not really, just had to throw it in Feel free to continue with song-brother discussion.

Why on earth did you delete that post?

It was literally impossible to find offensive...

didnt see the post, but it is simply not allowed to discuss religions on this forum, for very very good reasons.

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

But why a power tool instead of a healing tool?

Yes, that's the million dollar question here. Why do we have a power restore tool associated with our healing trait line? Why does said "power restore tool" have a feature that increases healing if it's only supposed to assist with power restoration?

The obvious answer is that it's supposed to be a healing tool, but it wound up being not very good at that. Trying to push Song-Brother as if power restoration is the primary feature is selling the skill and ultimately the class short, because it was meant to be much more than that.

Originally Posted by Thoronthor

didnt see the post, but it is simply not allowed to discuss religions on this forum, for very very good reasons.

So why delete my post and not the post before me that actually brought it up? lol

I call foul here.