Thread: Wardens and perceptions, perhaps truth to the lies?

I do apologize for dredging up what might be to some of us, old griefs, but i've been listening to some of the chatter going on in my server's global channel regarding wardens and their roles. I came away from that conversation feeling rather disgruntled about the class and would like to gain some of your input and perhaps from Orion as well.

Its been made plain that the warden was always intended to fulfill primarily, the role of a tank, to get in there, soak up damage inorder to leave the other members of the party unmolested. Yet with the stances now there lays a degree of "versatility" to the warden, allowing it to put out some lacklustre melee and ranged DPS. The former well below a champion, and i'm advised, below even that of a OP guardian. Assailment stance by comparison, although it appears to give some minor defensive buffs to nearby fellowship members, still does not generate enough DPS to put it amongst RKs or Hunters, and by popular assent, well below even what an LM can put out.

I find myself rather vexed. The warden though certainly more survivable then it was in update 6, is still less then ideally settled into the role of the tank, given its complexity versus a guardian. Needing to spend time either generating aggro, healing yourself or applying defensive gambits.

I have to wonder whether there might be something that could be improved in the methodology being used by Orion and the game's other designers in balancing classes. Particularly for the warden, which is by their own design a complex and intricate class to play. Granted that the warden can hold its own either when generating aggro, out-healing incoming damage or avoiding/mitigating incoming pain, i am not entirely convinced whether even the most talented players amongst us can achieve the maximum potential in all 3 fields at once. Thus the notion that the warden need be balanced upon the maximum potential of its skills is flawed.

Orion's move to grant the warden a greater degree of flexibility through the introduction of stance specific flavours to gambits is one i feel is in the right direction, but perhaps one that wasn't quite taken far enough. In any fellowship most would prefer to either take a class specialized for the role, then a warden who could at best play 2nd fiddle. There are no instances that require the unique flexibility that the warden has either, in essense, there are very few reasons to pick a warden for your group, when there's someone else who could do it better.

Wardens have no edge in the DPS fields, whether ranged or melee, that allow it to perform well when played by a good player. Infact, whether the player is good or bad, the warden's contributions far as DPS is concerned, remain mediocre.

Yet when I compare the warden, to its "brother" the RK. A class that can heal as well as a mini, hit as hard (or harder) then a hunter. Granted the RK is more fragile then the hunter, and does not have the ability to buff as a mini, but it can still fulfill these 2 roles with the same proficiency as a hunter and mini respectively. The warden to repeat myself, cannot perform in its secondary roles quite nearly so well.

I would honestly like to know whether this situation is going to change and how it is going to change. I remember well the problems of the warden that showed their heads in RoI, the months it took for turbine to address and apply what is at best, a stop gap solution, not to mention the wardens inability to fulfill its other roles with any significant degree of competence.

Now with rise of rohan on the horizon, i am very much debating with myself whether I should continue playing. My one active character, a warden, takes all the time i have left to play, is going to remain largely impotent. I would rather spend the money purchasing something else other then rise of rohan, if this trend of warden impotency is going to remain unchecked.

I heavily disagree on the tanking part. Wardens are now more than ever suitable for tanking, we're even at the point where Wardens have advantages over Guardians in several boss fights.

The perceptions of wardens being bad is partial true and we all should know this and the reasons why. The class was not balanced and simply too difficult for some which resulted in poor performances in fellowships in the past. The current state of the warden allows us to perform our primary role and do it with less difficulty. You can build agro against single and multiple mobs with one skill and build defences out of combat followed by panic skill which we never had. Our 2nd role is dps and can be done meele or range with stances. This is my opinon but i feel a class 2nd role should not be as good as another primary role and yes i know a rk can do 2 roles like its their primary. Allot of wardens spend too many time theory crafting or listening to others instead of playing. Is our 2nd role not good? my answer is i dont know. I am focused mainly on tanking and too lazy to grind dps gear.
Is our primary role good? My answer is yes and like the previous post we are better in some fights than any other tank.
The class is still not balanced but only time will tell.

When it comes to tanking, I'd say the Warden is in a very very good place. We finally have some worthwhile "oh-sh*t"-skills, and we can leech morale from multiple mobs to an insane degree. Our selfhealing is nothing short of amazing, I've measured my HPS to ~550 soloing spiders in LG, that gives healers a lot more time to focus on the rest of the group.

With our selfbuffs, capping both block and partial block is easy, and traiting for it, you'll get a heal from every block and partial block too. We can also get our parry quite high, especially with cappy-buff, and evade isn't far after.

DPS then? Well, I have two Wardens, and one of them is built (or being built) for DPS/PvP, and even tho my gear is far from top notch, I'm already impressed. Our bleeds is amazing, and traited correctly, they last forever (or near enough). And our ability to get power from DbD lets us keep the DPS up for all eternity if we wish, no LM needed here. In fact, I have measured up almost as high DPS on my DPS warden as on my (also not very well geared) Hunter, although i know that a properly geared hunter will surely out-dps a properly geared DPS-warden.

And let's not forget the buffs we can give to the fellowship, Conviction in Recklessness or Assailment is good stuff for the fellowship, probably one of the best buffs in the game, since we can keep it up constantly if needed.

I like the different stances as well. I am all for wardens being able to be well-respected dps. Perhaps there could be a way for a warden to do high dps, but they really have to work at it. The warden is an advanced class and the more skilled you get the more it should payoff.
Here are a couple of examples of stuff a skilled warden could do that could have some cool payoffs, I am sure you guys can improve them or think of better ones:
Stance dancing- Switch into a different stance to do a certain gambit then switch back
Masterful Buff Overlapping- If you are rolling all the advanced buffs perhaps there could be some cool payoff

Dude, the opinion of your GLFF (and mine) is straight BS. The general public hasn't updated their opinion on wardens in years. Ask them what patch they think they're playing in.

Results vary by player, gear, and class with DPS. But I can put out some serious sustained single target DPS on my warden (Orthanc set, Victors set, Draig cloak, 2nd ages, blue jewelry). Right around the big boys. Here's some anecdotes, since dummy parses are worthless:
- I ran an RoF with with a good RK geared as well as me. We shared parses on most of the fights, and consistently I was hanging right there with him. Recklessness.
- For this one I've got pics I'll share on request. One time me and another kin cappy were talkin, and I bragged that my alt (warden) could out sutained-single-target DPS his alt (champ). Equivalently geared, pretty much. Orthanc set, Victor's set, other good jewelry, 2nd ages. We went out to the LL with a kin mini and took turns soloing trees with CA on. We killed 3 trees each, and I consistently beat him. This is probably my favorite way to compare DPS with non-induction, non-burg guys. I need more Brandywine champs to experiment with like this.
- I've tanked LL dailies in recklessness, twice, out DPSing hunters with slightly lesser gear (Draigoch, maybe slightly lesser gear). But maybe they were going slow at first like theyre trained to. But I think at the least it means we're close enough that if a small gear disparity means aggro's on us in Recklessness, then we are a real DPS class.
- Forge on foundry: if they don't have a 1st age, its typically on me. Just a generalization encompassing but not really addressing things like slight gear disparity, maybe differences in skill, etc. I'm sure there are hunters and RKs with my gear that could out sutained-single-target DPS me by a little bit.
- I pull aggro all the time, and need to learn some DPS discipline after playing a captain as a main since I started this game.

Look, while I need more semi-scientific parses in LL with other classes and players, it's clear to me that wardens put out sutained-single-target DPS worthy of more respect than it gets. I conclude that it ain't a problem with wardens, it's a problem with people holding onto old beliefs and liking the feeling of having someone below (lower DPS) than them.

EDIT: our type of dps is very specific, which is a disadvantage. Single mobs with high enough health to bother stacking bleeds on. My rule of thumb is, if in a group and a mob has <35k health to start off with, just DbD or Onslaught spam (which makes us mediocre). Our rotation ought last about as long as our bleeds so 32 seconds. Multiple mobs like foundry? Eh I start off with a prepped Desolation and put off an EoB and Fierce Resolve for the bleeds, but I'm not impressed by it.

Originally Posted by BenZW

I do apologize for dredging up what might be to some of us, old griefs, but i've been listening to some of the chatter going on in my server's global channel regarding wardens and their roles. I came away from that conversation feeling rather disgruntled about the class and would like to gain some of your input and perhaps from Orion as well.

Its been made plain that the warden was always intended to fulfill primarily, the role of a tank, to get in there, soak up damage inorder to leave the other members of the party unmolested. Yet with the stances now there lays a degree of "versatility" to the warden, allowing it to put out some lacklustre melee and ranged DPS. The former well below a champion, and i'm advised, below even that of a OP guardian. Assailment stance by comparison, although it appears to give some minor defensive buffs to nearby fellowship members, still does not generate enough DPS to put it amongst RKs or Hunters, and by popular assent, well below even what an LM can put out.

I find myself rather vexed. The warden though certainly more survivable then it was in update 6, is still less then ideally settled into the role of the tank, given its complexity versus a guardian. Needing to spend time either generating aggro, healing yourself or applying defensive gambits.

I have to wonder whether there might be something that could be improved in the methodology being used by Orion and the game's other designers in balancing classes. Particularly for the warden, which is by their own design a complex and intricate class to play. Granted that the warden can hold its own either when generating aggro, out-healing incoming damage or avoiding/mitigating incoming pain, i am not entirely convinced whether even the most talented players amongst us can achieve the maximum potential in all 3 fields at once. Thus the notion that the warden need be balanced upon the maximum potential of its skills is flawed.

Orion's move to grant the warden a greater degree of flexibility through the introduction of stance specific flavours to gambits is one i feel is in the right direction, but perhaps one that wasn't quite taken far enough. In any fellowship most would prefer to either take a class specialized for the role, then a warden who could at best play 2nd fiddle. There are no instances that require the unique flexibility that the warden has either, in essense, there are very few reasons to pick a warden for your group, when there's someone else who could do it better.

Wardens have no edge in the DPS fields, whether ranged or melee, that allow it to perform well when played by a good player. Infact, whether the player is good or bad, the warden's contributions far as DPS is concerned, remain mediocre.

Yet when I compare the warden, to its "brother" the RK. A class that can heal as well as a mini, hit as hard (or harder) then a hunter. Granted the RK is more fragile then the hunter, and does not have the ability to buff as a mini, but it can still fulfill these 2 roles with the same proficiency as a hunter and mini respectively. The warden to repeat myself, cannot perform in its secondary roles quite nearly so well.

I would honestly like to know whether this situation is going to change and how it is going to change. I remember well the problems of the warden that showed their heads in RoI, the months it took for turbine to address and apply what is at best, a stop gap solution, not to mention the wardens inability to fulfill its other roles with any significant degree of competence.

Now with rise of rohan on the horizon, i am very much debating with myself whether I should continue playing. My one active character, a warden, takes all the time i have left to play, is going to remain largely impotent. I would rather spend the money purchasing something else other then rise of rohan, if this trend of warden impotency is going to remain unchecked.

I disagree with most of what you say here. You need to build for DPS. The advantage an RK is that both healing and PS come from their tactical mastery rating. If you want to effectively DPS you need to build for it. The advantage we have as a DPSer is that b/c we get 5 morale per point of vitality we can strictly focus on jacking our physical mastery as high as we can go with out loosing a tonne of survivability. My Warden can get his physical mastery to 27k (about what a Champ is looking for) and can easily pull off 1000 DPS + bleeds. Yes are DPS is not as good as a hunter, champ or RK, but its still good. You can't run in there though with tanking gear then switch stances and expect to be all of a sudden start doing crazy damage.

As to where would we need to use different stances. Just last night I was running Fangorn's Edge. I tanked all the way to the last boss then switch to DPS (including swapping gear and stance) and let the Minin kite the orcs. Worked like a charm.

Wardens, are just vicious right. We can tank like crazy, survive like crazy, and hit fairly well. Often I hear comments like "thank god we had a warden for that," and "holy #### did you just live." I think too on GLFF ppl are just stirring up #### just to continue the great tanking debate.

Originally Posted by BenZW

I do apologize for dredging up what might be to some of us, old griefs, but i've been listening to some of the chatter going on in my server's global channel regarding wardens and their roles. I came away from that conversation feeling rather disgruntled about the class and would like to gain some of your input and perhaps from Orion as well.

Its been made plain that the warden was always intended to fulfill primarily, the role of a tank, to get in there, soak up damage inorder to leave the other members of the party unmolested. Yet with the stances now there lays a degree of "versatility" to the warden, allowing it to put out some lacklustre melee and ranged DPS. The former well below a champion, and i'm advised, below even that of a OP guardian. Assailment stance by comparison, although it appears to give some minor defensive buffs to nearby fellowship members, still does not generate enough DPS to put it amongst RKs or Hunters, and by popular assent, well below even what an LM can put out.

I find myself rather vexed. The warden though certainly more survivable then it was in update 6, is still less then ideally settled into the role of the tank, given its complexity versus a guardian. Needing to spend time either generating aggro, healing yourself or applying defensive gambits.

I have to wonder whether there might be something that could be improved in the methodology being used by Orion and the game's other designers in balancing classes. Particularly for the warden, which is by their own design a complex and intricate class to play. Granted that the warden can hold its own either when generating aggro, out-healing incoming damage or avoiding/mitigating incoming pain, i am not entirely convinced whether even the most talented players amongst us can achieve the maximum potential in all 3 fields at once. Thus the notion that the warden need be balanced upon the maximum potential of its skills is flawed.

Orion's move to grant the warden a greater degree of flexibility through the introduction of stance specific flavours to gambits is one i feel is in the right direction, but perhaps one that wasn't quite taken far enough. In any fellowship most would prefer to either take a class specialized for the role, then a warden who could at best play 2nd fiddle. There are no instances that require the unique flexibility that the warden has either, in essense, there are very few reasons to pick a warden for your group, when there's someone else who could do it better.

Wardens have no edge in the DPS fields, whether ranged or melee, that allow it to perform well when played by a good player. Infact, whether the player is good or bad, the warden's contributions far as DPS is concerned, remain mediocre.

Yet when I compare the warden, to its "brother" the RK. A class that can heal as well as a mini, hit as hard (or harder) then a hunter. Granted the RK is more fragile then the hunter, and does not have the ability to buff as a mini, but it can still fulfill these 2 roles with the same proficiency as a hunter and mini respectively. The warden to repeat myself, cannot perform in its secondary roles quite nearly so well.

I would honestly like to know whether this situation is going to change and how it is going to change. I remember well the problems of the warden that showed their heads in RoI, the months it took for turbine to address and apply what is at best, a stop gap solution, not to mention the wardens inability to fulfill its other roles with any significant degree of competence.

Now with rise of rohan on the horizon, i am very much debating with myself whether I should continue playing. My one active character, a warden, takes all the time i have left to play, is going to remain largely impotent. I would rather spend the money purchasing something else other then rise of rohan, if this trend of warden impotency is going to remain unchecked.

I pretty much dissagree with everything you have said, and i dont really understand the point you are trying to make... There is NOTHING wrong with the warden class atm. In fact, atm wardens are stronger than ever, no matter the role (tank or dps).

There are plenty of wardens that tank and have tanked all end game content without problems. Sure its not easy, but then again if you want easy tanking, i suggest you read the class description first.
As for what a dps warden can do, i can easily speak about that. I have a very good geared dps warden, and on single target fights, where we can stack all our bleeds, and go for a full rotation, our dps is close or even better in some occasions, than other 'dps' classes. An example in my experience is outdpsing very good and geared champs in lighting tier 2 boss by doing 1.9 dps on my warden, and im sure i can do even better.

If you still feeling that you dont have a role in raids/ FS's, or you're holding the group back, then i suggest you change your rotation/playstyle, etc.. before starting a thread like that...

U6 did nothing for warden rep sadly and RAID PUGs prefer the safe option a lot of times and go for a Grd to tank if possible.

It all comes back to what has been said before on the Warden forums. That a bad Guardian in a group is still viable but a bad Warden really does suck. But when a Warden gets a good rep going for themselves they are highly valued and respected members of any group.

I have always played a Warden as my main since they were introduced and i really love the character. Over time i have built a steady reputation as a player and my warden character. Its always nice to be told by other members of your group that you completed your role well no matter what that role is.

Since the last update Wardens are now in a really strong position, yes some things need tweaking or could be a little better but that will always be the case.

For what it is worth speaking as someone that has been playing a warden since day one and was a top ranked (#1 for a short time and #2 for awhile) player on my server for some time and was heavily involved in all the previous discussion about the class, its growing pains -etc.. and despite not playing for a long time, I still believe a warden was intended to be a class for predominately solo players. With that said, the absolute best fun I've ever had in game was and methinks shall always be in a full group of wardens! There was nothing we could not defeat in game up until I last played.

Yes it is somewhat complicated to master the class but that is the intrinsic fun methinks. I always tanks in MMO titles and a warden gives me that plus a little extra methinks. Sadly I lost most of my interest in the game since the F2P conversion and the focus on pushing the cash shop but before I would easily spend over 30 hours a week in game working on my warden and helping train other wardens.

Originally Posted by Yelloweyedemon

In fact, atm wardens are stronger than ever, no matter the role (tank or dps).

I still prefer pre Isen warden to the warden now. Sure, wardens may be able to hit new highs right now but we certainly bottom out a lot lower as well. I would take a more solidly built warden any day.

Alot of the perceptions about wardens stem from peoples lack of experience grouping with them if everything goes well, then they pay no mind to it figuring that they had a good group and forget about it or asume the rest of them were awsome enough to carry the warden. But if there is problems then they look for what those problems are and when there is a warden in the group they automatically pick him/her as the problem ignoring the champ who grabbed room aggro then ran around keeping the mobs being hit by builders or the hunter who starts and ends in strength or the mini who runs out of power because the lm was too busy trying to prove how dpsy he is to feed power over. I will admit that often it is truely the wardens fault, since there are alot of bad wardens out there and even the good ones can mess up due to inattention or lag, it is a difficult class and many wardens get to end game these days without grouping much since frankly we excel at solo and so many wardens often think of themselves as a solo players myself included sometimes.

The primary role of wardens is now tanks and currently we are pretty good at it I would say second best though there are some fights I would rather have a warden then a guard. These instances tend to be the 3/6 man, where you have only one overworked healer and self heals do wonders, rather then raids which unfortuatly is everyones measuing stick. I have said it before and I will say it again in most cases if you have a main tank and someone who needs to kite a secondary boss or group of mobs have the warden tank and the guard kiting, we suck at kiting now if you want us the kill the adds thats different but have them hit us in the back and don't have us hit them and we might as well be a hunter with an unusual amount of morale.

DPS for wardens is tricky since unlike the true dps classes we need to change out all equipment to might based to do decent amounts the idea that OP guards and LMs do more dps then us is legacies left over from before the revamp they do more then a tank geared warden but less then a dps geared one. This perception will not go away it is a matter of pride with Guards and LMs but properly geared we can deal almost as much damage as the dedicated dps classes especially in situations were large numbers of adds swarm the group. The perception of wardens doing not much is partially that our damage is spread out over so much time and we don't do 10K+ hits but add up all the bleeds and builders as well as the actual hits and you come out to 1.5k-2k dps again more with large groups I've gotten up to around 5k dps against mobs on the moors (get the banner and they cannot stun you it helps more then anything).

Too answer the original question no the situation is not going to change (except possibly for the worst) we are probably as good as we are going to get in the forseeable future our bigest limitation are core elements of the game such as the armor mitigation system and the limitations of the gambit system especially when dealing with lag, these are not going to be changed for us and the main problem is if you make the warden more user friendly so that your average player can compete with the dedicated classes you open the door to the truely excellent players (myself not among them) to take that and run with it. Leading of course to the other classes calling for a nerf hammer. Just look at the recent reaction to wardens on the moors or even when the TV bug made us more aggro-y than guards. This reaction has never made much sense to me since we are all on the same side (except the creeps, they have the right to complain) does it really devalue the guard if we can pull from them or the champ if we can out dps them in certain circumstances when the planets align and we have all our gear? I don't remeber calling for nerfs all around when they overbalance other classes I tend to think cool maybe I should try playing that again (minis I'm looking at you) then I go back to warden because its the most fun.

Just remember people this is only a game being second best doesnt mean they take you around back and shoot you and taking the second best doesnt mean you will automatically fail.

Dude, wardens ar just perfect for tanking these days. Also, if geared, they CAN out-dps a champion in Recklessness. About Assailment, I dont think you should see it as a dps stance, but more an Ettenmoors stance. RoF, ToO, all not too hard for warden tanking

With the exception of Khaipur i don't think many of you quite understand the main thrust of my irritation with the warden of late.

1. I agree that the warden, is capable of outlasting a guardian in aggro-generation and combat resilancy in some situations.
2. I agree that the warden is better then it was then in U6, as far as DPS and tanking is concerned.
3. I agree that warden assailment stance adds additional utility to the inclusion of a warden in a team.

My issues are as follows.

A. The warden, though excellent at aggro generation and resiliancy in some fights. Cannot fully be turned to either route, needing to balance both inorder to operate as a tank. As a result, maximal potential in either area cannot be reached.

In the same way, conviction or assailment buffs cannot be maintained, whilst also attempting to achieve maximal DPS. Either the warden pours all his attention into buffing the fellowship, in which case his DPS drops through the floor, or focuses on DPS and does not use party buffs.

In either case, the inclusion of a warden does not sufficiently offset the lost damage a proper DPS class can inflict, nor do his buffs increase the outgoing damage of his party sufficiently to make his inclusion useful.

B. Granted that wardens are better off far as DPS and tanking is concerned. They are not a viable replacement to a "proper" DPS class, as RKs can replace ministrels or hunters in the healing and ranged DPS role. There RKs, Champions and Hunters are scarce, many individuals prefer taking loremasters or burglars instead. The former for their ability to CC, provide power, and also deal damage in an area. The latter for their ability to CC, debuff, begin conjuctions, coupled with a good single target DPS through silent knife.

C. Assailment stance buffs, while they add a new dimension to play, increasing out going damage in hunters or other ranged attackers by 3 percent, and outgoing tactical by 3 percent. As mentioned in A. This bonus is not enough to warrant the inclusion of a warden into a party in place of a hunter or champion to make up for the DPS opportunity cost.

In short, non-tanking wardens though more useful now, still do not enchance performance of a fellowship, or perform high enough to warrant their inclusion into a group, even in their designated secondary role of DPS.

-------------------------------------

Despite the alterations to the warden in update 7, they are still not a multiplier in fellowships when not in the tanking role. They remain a liability, particularly when the opportunity cost involved in filling a spot in a raid or fellowship that could otherwise have gone to a champion, hunter or RK.

Whilst i do not advocate the modelling of the warden as a complete replacement to either of those classes, i would still like to see some skills and effects that allow other classes to perform so well that the inclusion of a warden into their group would do more then replace the damage that could otherwise been delt.

That means increasing the potency of their assailment buffs to rival those of a captain, something i do not find myself keen on. Or the ability to inflict specific condition that allow other classes to better utilitze specific skills.

One possible example would be to perhaps allow the bleeds inflicted by warden gambits to function as triggers, for example the captain's grave wound and improved grave wound to have their "if bleeding from cutting attack" conditions fulfilled and allowing the additional bleeds to kick in, or allowing hunters to gain the bonus damage from heartseeker on a target suffering a warden bleed.

Its alterations like that which would allow wardens to fill their role as a secondary DPS well enough to warrant including one in the fellowship, but because of its dependance on other classes to achieve maximal damage, wouldn't give players reason to entirely exclude other classes for wardens when forming fellowships.

Originally Posted by BenZW

[..]
In short, non-tanking wardens though more useful now, still do not enchance performance of a fellowship, or perform high enough to warrant their inclusion into a group, even in their designated secondary role of DPS. [..]

Your argument is exactly why I consider us a solo class. We are very good a multitasking but will never be able to specialize like the other classes. Multitasking is our specialization.

Anyway, for fun get a full fellowship of wardens going and do the hardest content you can find. That my friend is where our magic can be found.

How can you say people want burglars for debuffing instead of LMs?

Sorry for the off-topic, it just surprised me a lot.

Originally Posted by BenZW

With the exception of Khaipur i don't think many of you quite understand the main thrust of my irritation with the warden of late.

your not suposed to agree with me how can I get into a good fight, i mean meaningful discusion, if you agree with me.

Originally Posted by BenZW

One possible example would be to perhaps allow the bleeds inflicted by warden gambits to function as triggers, for example the captain's grave wound and improved grave wound to have their "if bleeding from cutting attack" conditions fulfilled and allowing the additional bleeds to kick in, or allowing hunters to gain the bonus damage from heartseeker on a target suffering a warden bleed.

Thats an interesting thought and I think I'm going to co-op and run with it out of any recognition to your inocent comment. This idea taken even further to get around the dilema of making wardens Gods in skilled hands if they were buffed. Have wardens automatically activate other classes gates for them or in some other way buff the groups abilities, we saw some of this in the last update with conviction but on the whole the benifits do not last long enough to be worth it when you have to switch stances for a single gambit. I can see it working for alot of gambits where you could add a group buff on top of it not just in assailment though that is the obvious place and some of the changed gambits are crying out for something, anything to make them useful (power attack for instance not doing bleeds or anything else seems wrong). Also it would be interesting if the buffs were not universal group buffs as is normal but class specific just for that extra level of complexity that lets you know this is a warden ability.

I can see shield mastery giving a block response and wall of steal of course giving a perry response. The new nerfed Wardens triumph should be shared with other wardens in the group though obviously not stacking, and Dark before the dawn should give the initial power heal to minis (not sure why but it feels right). If you knockdown a mob you should get a better chance of a fellowship but only if you have a burg in the group (and its the second tuesday of the month, couldnt help it had to add the sarcasm). You need something for a death gate (maybe surity of death) and something for RKs and Hunters, or maybe not let them rot the smarmy b... never mind, and I think you are done.

Of course some of you will say that this is added complexity to an already over complex class and to you I say I agree completly but since it is already too complex lets go for Wagnerian complexity. Thats right I want learning the warden class to be the equivelent to a 4 day marathon in a foriegn language so that no matter how good you are or think you are there is always room to improve.

Have fun with the idea lets hear suggestions for buffs attached to gambits.

Originally Posted by BenZW

A. The warden, though excellent at aggro generation and resiliancy in some fights. Cannot fully be turned to either route, needing to balance both inorder to operate as a tank. As a result, maximal potential in either area cannot be reached.

I don't know about you but holding threat off +3k dps and having almost 75% bpe and capped mits and having 2 major hots sounds like maximum tanking potential to me.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

I heavily disagree on the tanking part. Wardens are now more than ever suitable for tanking, we're even at the point where Wardens have advantages over Guardians in several boss fights.

:/

We had advantages over them in OD and BG.

Well played wardens have no tanking problems nowadays, if tanking can buff themselves for mor crit def, and a lot more B/P/E than guards can ever have, and can hold aggro a lot easyer, in same time. So ability for tanking is not question (yes it is bad for Too shadow wing, but good at every other place.

Dps is an other thing... for many of us this is an alibi role (no dps gear, legend items... etc.) just want to have too set without tanking out the raid. If u want see dps you must search those wardens who geared for that (this is rare :/) thuos can hit really hard, but not thos draigoch set using "dps" wardens.

Recklessness is the hardest hitting stance,
Assailment is a bit lower dps, +dmg buffs arent too good, also we have a -99% threat generation buff, that is an awesome bonus what can help a lot for the tank.

Originally Posted by Untg99

:/

We had advantages over them in OD and BG.

We had several advantages at the Lieutenant, but I fail to see where else Wardens were better than Guardians in BG and OD.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

We had several advantages at the Lieutenant, but I fail to see where else Wardens were better than Guardians in BG and OD.

You already picked out the LT fight.
Twin fight shadow chick, you'll never see a guardian tanking that one :P Not to mention how better it is to have used a warden over a hunter.

As for OD it was Ivar, Poisen, Gorth, and I can't remember the last one.
May have some of the OD fights mixed up.

Heck man, what was it, world first DB fight was done with two red traited wardens tanking?
I'd even say the watcher the warden excelled at over guards.

The class was harder to manage back then, which, for those who were capable of achieving the feats there were many misconceptions.

Originally Posted by Untg99

You already picked out the LT fight.
Twin fight shadow chick, you'll never see a guardian tanking that one :P Not to mention how better it is to have used a warden over a hunter.

As for OD it was Ivar, Poisen, Gorth, and I can't remember the last one.
May have some of the OD fights mixed up.

Heck man, what was it, world first DB fight was done with two red traited wardens tanking?
I'd even say the watcher the warden excelled at over guards.

The class was harder to manage back then, which, for those who were capable of achieving the feats there were many misconceptions.

I ranged tanked the shadow chick many many times on hunter and I fail to see any reason for picking a Warden for that job, you just lose DPS compared to a hunter.

I might need to clarify myself a bit on the OD bit though as I used my Warden back then and I was raid leader. Whenever we were taking on a new wing, the warden kept on being a liability for progression because a warden death = raid wipe 99% of the time, a guardian death = raid wipe like 20-30% of them time.

If you have the tactics sorted out and people in raid are experienced with the instance, sure, Warden might be better in several cases in OD, but I dont really see how a Warden would be better at them, especially not Gortheron.

Given the complexiti of the play of the warden over a guardian doesn't mean the warden is not a more suitable tank for a rather large amount of instances and raids, only that it usualy takes a more skilled player to do it right. And because of that the opinion of the glff is not valid. Loads of glff-ers are puging and having experiences with bad wardens, but bad guards too. The difference is, it's easyer to be a bad guard, you have all your skills on the top of your fingertips and have skills you can activate in a second "in-case-shhh"
There are even wardens out there that do not know some of the main gambits and still want to tank raids. Well, if they don't know them, they shouldn't be taking some of the complicated tasks as end game raids. Add to that that most of those don't even use masteries and you get the ultimate bad warden icon. Persons who are giving the warden it's bad name.

That our dps could be better... Yes, it could. But what do you expect of a tanking class, a warden who is above all stacking vitality and then everything else?
I'm not saying the class shouldn't and couldn't improve, but it is not bad as you are presenting it. It is actualy great. The bad thing is that there is not a lot of great wardens on the servers. Or maybe a good thing, so a few of us get better rep.

Originally Posted by Gandalphor

That our dps could be better... Yes, it could. But what do you expect of a tanking class, a warden who is above all stacking vitality and then everything else?

DPS Wardens (ie non tanks) don't stack Vit, they stack Might.

I just want wardens to have viable sustained single target damage. And maybe they do, its just hard to say exactly how much since training dummies do not provide good parses for us (to compare against other classes)

We are a tanking class, no matter what we are stacking.

I'm no more caster if I stack will/fate.

And being tanks vitality is our main stat and primarily stacked, then if we want to go to moors we get different gear.

Originally Posted by Gandalphor

We are a tanking class, no matter what we are stacking.

I'm no more caster if I stack will/fate.

And being tanks vitality is our main stat and primarily stacked, then if we want to go to moors we get different gear.

To hell with that. Wardens have 2 roles (one of which has 2 flavors). Tanking is just what they're much better suited for. But if wardens throw red traits on and stack might sky high and toggle Recklessness/Assailment (EDIT: and leave the aggro grabbing to another warden or somebody), they are DPS and not tanks.
Will/fate? To hell with your strawman too.

Originally Posted by Omen_Kaizer

EDIT: our type of dps is very specific, which is a disadvantage. Single mobs with high enough health to bother stacking bleeds on. My rule of thumb is, if in a group and a mob has <35k health to start off with, just DbD or Onslaught spam (which makes us mediocre). Our rotation ought last about as long as our bleeds so 32 seconds. Multiple mobs like foundry? Eh I start off with a prepped Desolation and put off an EoB and Fierce Resolve for the bleeds, but I'm not impressed by it.

This. The bleeds are really what makes our DPS shine, for better and for worse.

Originally Posted by Gandalphor

Given the complexiti of the play of the warden over a guardian doesn't mean the warden is not a more suitable tank for a rather large amount of instances and raids, only that it usualy takes a more skilled player to do it right.

I think i need to make it clear again, the issue with the warden isn't the complexity of play, its the way the class needs to balance each of the 3 tasks i normally associate with tanking, HoTs, defensive buffs and aggro generation. To reiterate again, though i begin to question whether my efforts in this regard are futile, the warden although strong at any one of these areas, cannot afford to focus on one and neglect the others.

Given that tanking requires for us to balance all 3, threat to turn attacks away from more vulnerable members of a fellowship, avoidances to avoid incoming damage we can ill afford, owing to lower armor and associated mitigations, and finally HoTs inorder to compensate for the bigger hits we wind up taking.

I find and I may be wrong, that the warden seems balanced on the assumption that a player is running all 3 "subsets" of skills to the max, a situation that does not exist in the game, given the need to strike a balance rather then focus exclusively on one.

Compared to guardians who have significantly higher mitigations and none of the vulnerabilities of warden's lighter armor and time consuming gambit system, all they need do is generate aggro.

This was recognized by the devs, who decided to boost the wardens attack damage and versatility through the gambit-specific stances introduced by U7, inorder to maintain some attractiveness to the class.

The main point of my entire argument, is that they have not gone far enough to grant the warden sufficient damage dealing or team buffing in order to offset the opportunity cost of taking a warden in its other role, that of a DPS, over a hunter, champion or RK.

Now i would greatly appreciate it if the topic weren't hijacked any more then it already has been. It is not about the suitability of the warden as a tank, despite however you might feel, it is about the warden's ability to function as a DPS.

Originally Posted by BenZW

The main point of my entire argument, is that they have not gone far enough to grant the warden sufficient damage dealing or team buffing in order to offset the opportunity cost of taking a warden in its other role, that of a DPS, over a hunter, champion or RK.

Several posters above have already stated that properly geared and traited, the warden in fact does contribute to damage output as well as any of the dedicated dps classes. What it can't do very well is burst damage (you can always bring a long a warspeech minstrel for that, but don't complain about the lack of sustained damage on boss fights then ), but lack of burst damage won't be the deciding point in most groups/instances (at least in pve content).

Originally Posted by BenZW

I find and I may be wrong, that the warden seems balanced on the assumption that a player is running all 3 "subsets" of skills to the max, a situation that does not exist in the game, given the need to strike a balance rather then focus exclusively on one.

I have yet to find the content in this game that needs a maximum of all three aspects of warden play to succeed. I do find that different kinds of content and different groups need different emphasis on what I'm doing. For example, in trash pulls in 6-man instances most of the time I just do aggro management since there really is no time to put up my self buffs before the mobs are down . With some healers/some fights, there is no need to worry about HoTs since I'm not losing much morale, while at other times HoTs end up to be more important than buffs or even getting aggro.

That's actually what I enjoy about the warden classe: the ability to adjust the balance between generating threat, self-buffing and self-healing depending on the fight and the group composition.

The view of wardens in general:

1. 90% of Guardians can tank
2. 10% of Guardian can't tank
3. 10% of wardens can tank
4. 90% of wardens can't tank

I still get tells asking me if i can tank. I only reply "I am a warden - of course".

Unfort. there are many many many others part time wardens out there, that very easily and quickly break the classes image by incompetent tanking skills etc..

People need to realise - the warden is the most advanced class (as said by devs themselves) in this game. It is not a class that someone can just jump on and instantly everything works. The lack on knowlegde of the person playing the warden is just as bad as the lack of knowlegde by the rest of the players not playing a warden. Ideally the fellowship helps their tank - this is more so important for the warden than it is for the guardian.

Originally Posted by UwS-Harledir

The view of wardens in general:

1. 90% of Guardians can tank
2. 10% of Guardian can't tank
3. 10% of wardens can tank
4. 90% of wardens can't tank

I still get tells asking me if i can tank. I only reply "I am a warden - of course".

Unfort. there are many many many others part time wardens out there, that very easily and quickly break the classes image by incompetent tanking skills etc..

People need to realise - the warden is the most advanced class (as said by devs themselves) in this game. It is not a class that someone can just jump on and instantly everything works. The lack on knowlegde of the person playing the warden is just as bad as the lack of knowlegde by the rest of the players not playing a warden. Ideally the fellowship helps their tank - this is more so important for the warden than it is for the guardian.

I dont agree. Is really easy to tank nowadays as a warden. Even in ToO t2, you could probably tank most bosses using only EoB and Shield mastery. For example Kalbak is almost easymode, never surrender x2, defiant challenge for 30 sec god mode, EoB spam for threat with other gambits in between. Ofc a good warden will have more self-buffs and heals running: there's a lot of difference in skill, but few difference in practical results because the most important warden tools are easy (never surrender, DC, EoB).

Originally Posted by BenZW

A. The warden, though excellent at aggro generation and resiliancy in some fights. Cannot fully be turned to either route, needing to balance both inorder to operate as a tank. As a result, maximal potential in either area cannot be reached.

Are we playing the same Class ?

With the correct LI's its very easy to keep all self buffs ups (B/P/E), keep heals running and generating loads of aggro to keep ahead of the rest of your fellowship.

Now with the 'Oh Sh1t' clicky DC , + Never Surrender , the helpful LLG Jewelry that gives us a bubble I would say a reasonably well played Warden can reach their maximum potential as a Tank and be a great asset to any fellowship.

As Bramor rightly said some places you will just need to battleprep SM , battleprep EoB , then just spam EoB pulling trashsince they will die very quick, others will need a little more work

Originally Posted by Omen_Kaizer

To hell with that. Wardens have 2 roles (one of which has 2 flavors). Tanking is just what they're much better suited for. But if wardens throw red traits on and stack might sky high and toggle Recklessness/Assailment (EDIT: and leave the aggro grabbing to another warden or somebody), they are DPS and not tanks.
Will/fate? To hell with your strawman too.

If you want that kind of a warden... Just roll a hunter.
As said... I agree dps could be better, recklesness could give more bonus to dmg, but that isn't our primary role. The lack of our dps can be explained by the fact that we can survive longer and hence attack longer too. Bringing our targets not as fast as some other classes, but maybe safer then they do, without concear of getting killed.

Warden could never run all 3 stances to do the most of his posibilities because droping Determination also drops aggro.

The only thing that I am seeing wrong with warden is his ability to get aggro on single targets.

Originally Posted by Aidlywo

Are we playing the same Class ?

With the correct LI's its very easy to keep all self buffs ups (B/P/E), keep heals running and generating loads of aggro to keep ahead of the rest of your fellowship.

Now with the 'Oh Sh1t' clicky DC , + Never Surrender , the helpful LLG Jewelry that gives us a bubble I would say a reasonably well played Warden can reach their maximum potential as a Tank and be a great asset to any fellowship.

As Bramor rightly said some places you will just need to battleprep SM , battleprep EoB , then just spam EoB pulling trashsince they will die very quick, others will need a little more work

No. He is playing champion and tries to tank. Proof! In our dreams we all want to be a warden...

Originally Posted by Feomalo

I dont agree. Is really easy to tank nowadays as a warden. Even in ToO t2, you could probably tank most bosses using only EoB and Shield mastery. For example Kalbak is almost easymode, never surrender x2, defiant challenge for 30 sec god mode, EoB spam for threat with other gambits in between. Ofc a good warden will have more self-buffs and heals running: there's a lot of difference in skill, but few difference in practical results because the most important warden tools are easy (never surrender, DC, EoB).

I agree with the part you dont agree with

Originally Posted by Gandalphor

If you want that kind of a warden... Just roll a hunter.

Why should I spend my time (that I don't have in the first place) levelling a hunter, a class that I don't enjoy at all (and I've tried several times, but my highest hunters are still stuck at levels 28 and 22), when I have a warden and a minstrel at endgame who I both enjoy playing very much and who are perfectly able to trait and gear for dps on the occasions when we happen to have a fellowship with three minstrels or a raid with five tanks (and these things do happen surprisingly often if you prefer to have fun with friends rather than tailoring your setup to your idea of the "perfect" group).

The great thing about LotRO is that character classes are versatile. You have a warden you like to tank with, but on the occasion when you'd rather dps (for whatever reason) it is a viable option to change gear and traits and be up there with the classes that have dps as their first role, without wasting a ton of time levelling a class that you don't enjoy half es much. Just because you don't want your warden to dps doesn't mean others can't or shouldn't.

Originally Posted by Bramor

Why should I spend my time (that I don't have in the first place) levelling a hunter, a class that I don't enjoy at all (and I've tried several times, but my highest hunters are still stuck at levels 28 and 22), when I have a warden and a minstrel at endgame who I both enjoy playing very much and who are perfectly able to trait and gear for dps on the occasions when we happen to have a fellowship with three minstrels or a raid with five tanks (and these things do happen surprisingly often if you prefer to have fun with friends rather than tailoring your setup to your idea of the "perfect" group).

The great thing about LotRO is that character classes are versatile. You have a warden you like to tank with, but on the occasion when you'd rather dps (for whatever reason) it is a viable option to change gear and traits and be up there with the classes that have dps as their first role, without wasting a ton of time levelling a class that you don't enjoy half es much. Just because you don't want your warden to dps doesn't mean others can't or shouldn't.

Amen, brother. RKs have two main role they fill well. Why not Wardens? Right, we're just tanks. I got a feeling that we're there already (for specifically sustained single target damage). Just need training dummies that are worth anything and it can be proven by means other than inconstant, unscientific raid/instant parses.

I don't mind people wanting to dps now and then, but wanting 10-15k is too much for this class. If you compare, pretty much all classes, except the champion, and he also has low morale pool, are squishies. There is some balance in there. They can devastate for an avarage tanking wardens morale, but have 7k morale tops. Giving wardens morale and crazy dps is too OP.

Originally Posted by Gandalphor

I don't mind people wanting to dps now and then, but wanting 10-15k is too much for this class. If you compare, pretty much all classes, except the champion, and he also has low morale pool, are squishies. There is some balance in there. They can devastate for an avarage tanking wardens morale, but have 7k morale tops. Giving wardens morale and crazy dps is too OP.

But that's not the case. Running in a real DPS build on a Warden you will end up with 8-9K morale. Tops. And thats with sacrificing some dps for a bit of Vitality gear.

Full on DPS you will have closer to 7-8K.

I dont see a problem with that. I would like to ability to fully dual-spec DPS or Tanking and being top tier in either (not both at the same time clearly).