Thread: Sara Oakheart spoiler thread

Or not...feel free not to spoil it, I just want to see if I missed something while playing through the epic storyline. If you're playing through, understand that I may be spoiling some stuff that lies ahead of you. You have been warned.

I'm currently searching the Trollshaws for Narchuil and found Sara's old diary and I'm confused. We already found out that Sara is Amarthiel. So, if Sara hid Narchuil, why did Amarthiel need the palantir to try to find it? If it all gets explained away later, great - I'm cool with finding out down the road. I just want to make sure that I didn't miss or misunderstand something (sadly, the real world refuses to allow me to devote my full mental energies to following the story as much as I'm sure my toon does).

Thanks!

'splained later, 'nuff said.

/thread.

Sara Oakheart is not Amarthiel. The Sara Oakheart you met was Amarthiel.

Perfect, thanks! I was just afraid somebody would point out the cutscene after book 8 where something else happened while my computer lagged or that I have no reading comprehension skills.

Originally Posted by VGN-LarryMac

Perfect, thanks! I was just afraid somebody would point out the cutscene after book 8 where something else happened while my computer lagged or that I have no reading comprehension skills.

You can go back and re-watch the videos from the epic stories. On the login screen there is an option for movies and you can watch the race/class ones and any from epic books you have completed.

*Spoiler*

The whole scene where Sara was killed was just a dream.

Have to admit, that reveal in game, the first time without spoilers, was pretty good.

*spoiler*


Yes there was a person named Sara Oakheart. She was employed to take care of Narmaleth, and lived in a cabin down the river from Delossad, where Leardan was keeping his daughter. This SA was the one with the keys and the diary. You find the diary in the burned out cabin which leads you to find the keys to Delossad. In the flashback you see Mordirith breaking Narmaleth out (assuming the persona Amarthiel). They plan to kill the real S.O. and you see the result: a burned out cabin. You can assume they did in the real SA by burning her cabin down, with her in it.

Amarthiel takes the unassuming shape of S.O. to play on your sympathies (as you level), until the reveal...Grrr...Now do you feel like a schmuck for saving her all those times?

Originally Posted by Dotlbeme

Amarthiel takes the unassuming shape of SA to play on your sympathies (as you level), until the reveal...Grrr...Now do you feel like a schmuck for saving her all those times?

There's one thing I've always wondered about the incarnations of Sara Oakheart we see while saving her. Shortly after the end of Book 8 in Shadows of Angmar, we learn Oakheart's ultimate goal. Unfortunately, it has been several years since my last play through, so my memory is a bit hazy. As I recall, we learn that Amarthiel's plan (as Oakheart) was to steal the palantir that Mordirith possessed, which she uses to contact Sauron in Barad Gularan. We are led to believe that this is the Palantir of Annuminas, presumably recovered from the ice-bay of Forochel during the search for half of Amarthiel's ring, Narchuil, which was also lost during in Forochel during the rescue of King Arvedui. I always believed that this was the reason Amarthiel invades the ruins of Annuminas in Book 9, as if the palantir was somehow stronger in its original seat in Annuminas.

However, before leaving Angmar, Amarthiel does one more thing - she sets into motion the freeing of Udunion, a lesser Balrog called a Rogmul. As a player, you encounter Udunion at the end of the Barad Gularan instance, and to defeat him requires the timely use of three mysterious objects: The Staff of Dark Shadows, The Scroll of Ruin, and The Horn of Arnor. It is my belief, though, that this is not the first time we run into these three items.

As early as the Man prologue in Book 1, we help Sara Oakheart escape a brigand cave near Combe. During this escape, she makes a fuss and has us players help her recover her "walking stick". It may just be me, but I think that this staff she has us locate looks exactly like the Staff of Dark Shadows that we see in BG. Still later, we encounter her again in the Garth Agarwen instance. Here, after we rescue her, she goes bolting away with something in her hand - a scroll she dug up in a crypt somewhere.

Is this scroll supposed to be the Scroll of Ruin that we use in Barad Gularan? And if so, then we see Amarthiel (as Oakheart) recover both the Staff and Scroll during our rescue sessions with her. Do we ever see her recover the Horn of Arnor as well? Or are we supposed to believe that BG's castellan, Wisdan, has possessed the Horn in his chest all this time?

I guess the horn is from Fornost where you meet her too.

Originally Posted by Krindus

--- spoilerific questions about Sara ---

---spoilerific answers---

First, as I recall: the palantir that Mordirith has in Carn Dum is actually supposed to be the one from Osgiliath, that Saruon's minions somehow managed to dredge out of the Anduin. (Osgiliath's palantir was kept under the Dome of the Stars, which was built on a bridge over the river. The structure collapsed at some point, presumeably burying the palantir under tons of rubble.)

Second - yes, you're right. The "walking stick" that Sara is so desperate to recover from the Blackwolds is the Staff of Dark Shadows, and that's the Scroll of Ruin that she's found in Garth Agarwen. The third time you have to "rescue" (and by rescue, I mean fail to get killed by) Sara is in Fornost, where she inexplicably turns up in a stockade being guarded by orcs. I don't recall if she's actually carrying anything, but it's safe to assume that she's got the Horn of Anor (meaning sun, not Arnor) with her. She know she needs all three items to complete the summoning and control of Udunion. When you meet her for the last time (as Sara) in Barad Gularan, she's delivering the items to her sorcerors.

It's also worth noting that her apparent need for "rescue" is (in hindsight) simply her way to slip out of your grasp while you are otherwise engaged in unravelling her plans. The Blackwolds have been taken over by Angmar - Amarthiel is probably the agent in charge of that, which is why she's in the same cave as Skunkwood, the (Angmar-ified) Blackwold leader. Next, she's found in Garth Agarwen, mere steps from Ivar's crypt. In the Othrongroth instance of the V1 epic, we specifically hear the Witch King giving orders to Ivar to continue his work in the east (i.e., at GA). Amarthiel and Mordirith were the WK's top two servants, so it makes sense that she'd be supervising. Finally, as you unravel the history of Fornost, you learn that Amarthiel personally subverted four powerful commanders of the Fornost garrison, which allowed the WK to take the city and drive King Arvedui out. Those four commanders are now the 4 wraith bosses in the Fornost instance. It's no surprise that she would return to the scene of her greatest triumph to a) retake the ruined city using Blogmal orcs and b) re-recruit her four old boyfriends to the service of Angmar. The next-to-last boss in Fornost is another one of her sorceresses.

In all three of these scenarios, Sara lets you "rescue" her (getting her out of harm's way) - saving her own skin while serving up her so-called allies to you to destroy (or maybe she hopes they'll defeat you without her). This theme comes up at least once more, in a story that you see from both sides (yours and Angmar's) via session play.

But no more spoilers.

What I want to know is what Sara was doing in Ered Luin?

Originally Posted by Ioffryd

---spoilerific answers---

First, as I recall: the palantir that Mordirith has in Carn Dum is actually supposed to be the one from Osgiliath, that Saruon's minions somehow managed to dredge out of the Anduin. (Osgiliath's palantir was kept under the Dome of the Stars, which was built on a bridge over the river. The structure collapsed at some point, presumeably burying the palantir under tons of rubble.)

Considering the title of the thread is "spoiler thread", I don't think anyone is going to mind if we post a few spoilers

On the topic of the Osgiliath stone, I recall a bluename dev once identifying Amarthiel's palantir as the stone from Osgiliath, but I don't quite buy it. In the lore, I believe the palantir of Osgiliath was said to be huge, several feet in diameter, as tall as human, and could not be lifted by one man. This differs entirely from what we witness in game - at one point we actually steal the palantir and run off with it.

Then, of course, the most obvious question - if Sauron was able to recover the Osgiliath palantir, which was said to have been the most powerful of the palantir, why would he waste time and resources to move it from the depths of the Anduin all the way up to Angmar. It seems more likely that he would take this "chief" stone for himself, and move it a far shorter distance to Barad-Dur.

Because Amarthiel has both presence and interest in Forochel (it is here that one half of her ring was lost), and because of Forochel's close proximity to Angmar, I believe it is more likely that the palantir acquired by Mordirith and Amarthiel is more likely one of the two palantiri lost on King Arvedui's flight to Forochel from Fornost. As we find out later, his ship was not lost and sunk at sea (at least in lotro canon), because we are actually able to visit both the ship and the spirit of Arvedui himself. Also, let us not forget - shortly after seizing control of Angmar, Amarthiel marches south and invades the ruins of Annuminas, and only then does she use the palantir to help her search for her ring. To me, this implies a far greater connection between Annuminas and the stolen palantir than we originally had thought, and certainly suggests that the palantir that Angmar has possessed all these years is more likely the Annuminas stone than the Osgiliath one.

Regardless of minor bumps in the lore, I will say this. I found everything about the Amarthiel storyline, from the foreshadowing with Oakheart, to the references of Amarthiel in Fornost and Carn Dum, to the actual story itself to one of Turbine's most impressive feats of storytelling ever. The Amarthiel event, in which GMs took over the character and made her attack random hotspots throughout Middle Earth, was incredibly fun and one of the more memorable experiences in this game. With all the work Turbine has done with layering and phasing, I am very disappointed that nothing like this has ever been attempted again, because it really brought a lot of life not only into the game, but into the community as well. They had a prime opportunity to do something similar with Gwyllion in Enedwaith and Rohan, but they unfortunately missed out big time. To this day, Amarthiel remains one of lotro's most frightening and awe-inspiring nemesis's so far.

Originally Posted by Dotlbeme

In the flashback you see Mordirith breaking Narmaleth out

It's been a long time since I did the Vol. I epics, but this struck me as having questionable dialogue. As I recall that flashback scene, Mordirith and Amarthiel acted like they knew each other - as allies, as those personas. But Amarthiel was captured during the Battle of Fornost, and Earnur didn't become Mordirith until 75 years after the battle. If they'd met at all before, it would have been as leaders on opposing sides of a major battle. So while it makes perfect sense for Mordirith to break her out, Narmeleth/Amarthiel should have had a "who are you? Some random guy who replaced me as the Witch King's top subordinate? OK then" reaction rather than the "hello old friend" reaction which is the impression I got of that flashback.

Originally Posted by SalionOfBrothers

What I want to know is what Sara was doing in Ered Luin?

Trying to start a war between the dwarves and the elves. Where do we find her? In the depths of the goblin camp in Rath Teraig, where we (once again) conveniently "rescue" her just before defeating the goblin army and driving Skorgim out.

Everything that Sara/Amarthiel does (at least before she starts freelancing after we defeat Mordirith in Carn Dum) is aimed at weakining the Free Peoples' lands in the north, and rebuilding Angmar in preparation for an all-out assault, presumeably to be in conjunction with the other invasions Sauron launches against Gondor, Lothlorien, Dale and Erebor. Because of our efforts, the invasion never happens.

Originally Posted by Krindus

On the topic of the Osgiliath stone, I recall a bluename dev once identifying Amarthiel's palantir as the stone from Osgiliath, but I don't quite buy it. In the lore, I believe the palantir of Osgiliath was said to be huge, several feet in diameter, as tall as human, and could not be lifted by one man. This differs entirely from what we witness in game - at one point we actually steal the palantir and run off with it.

Well, that's the problem with having "too much" knowlege. Remember that Turbine only have the rights to use information contained within the covers of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. All that stuff about the size and power of Osgiliath's palantir comes from other sources. All we know from LotR is that there were 7 palantiri, originally at Annuminas, Amon Sul, Emyn Beraid, Orthanc, Minas Anor, Osgiliath and Minas Ithil. When Annuminas was abandoned, Amlaith took that stone to his new captial of Fornost, and later the stone of Amon Sul was saved from the destruction of the watchtower and brought to Fornost as well. Those were the ones lost with Arvedui. All we know about Osgiliath's stone is that it was lost in the river when the Dome of Stars collapsed (I believe that this is in the timelines in the appendices).

That said, I thought it was a bit overly-contrived on Turbine's part to posit that somehow, Sauron managed to train up an orkish dive/rescue/salvage team to comb the bottom of the Anduin in search of a lost palantir, and then had somebody schlep it all the way up to Carn Dum. On the other hand, orc-frogmen capable of finding small objects on the bottoms of rivers might be something Sauron would be interested in having...

As far as the Annuminas connection, my thinking (and it's only that) is that Amarthiel knew that that was the only other place that had a proper pedestal for mounting the palantir for use - but that ignores the fact that Pippin and Aragorn seemed to be able to use one just fine while holding it.

Originally Posted by J_Howell

It's been a long time since I did the Vol. I epics, but this struck me as having questionable dialogue. As I recall that flashback scene, Mordirith and Amarthiel acted like they knew each other - as allies, as those personas. But Amarthiel was captured during the Battle of Fornost, and Earnur didn't become Mordirith until 75 years after the battle. If they'd met at all before, it would have been as leaders on opposing sides of a major battle. So while it makes perfect sense for Mordirith to break her out, Narmeleth/Amarthiel should have had a "who are you? Some random guy who replaced me as the Witch King's top subordinate? OK then" reaction rather than the "hello old friend" reaction which is the impression I got of that flashback.

**more spoilers for later parts of the V1 epic - proceed with caution**

Good point, but both were dedicated servants of the Witch-King. Despite possibly never having seen Mordirith (in that form) before, Amarthiel probably knew that he spoke with the WK's authority. We see that again in the aftermath of the reforging of Narchuil, where, even with her ring back, Amarthiel gets summarily flattened by Mordirith's superior (WK-backed) power.

Originally Posted by Krindus

However, before leaving Angmar, Amarthiel does one more thing - she sets into motion the freeing of Udunion, a lesser Balrog called a Rogmul. As a player, you encounter Udunion at the end of the Barad Gularan instance, and to defeat him requires the timely use of three mysterious objects: The Staff of Dark Shadows, The Scroll of Ruin, and The Horn of Arnor. It is my belief, though, that this is not the first time we run into these three items.

Nicely done. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Ioffryd

Well, that's the problem with having "too much" knowlege. Remember that Turbine only have the rights to use information contained within the covers of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. All that stuff about the size and power of Osgiliath's palantir comes from other sources. All we know from LotR is that there were 7 palantiri, originally at Annuminas, Amon Sul, Emyn Beraid, Orthanc, Minas Anor, Osgiliath and Minas Ithil. When Annuminas was abandoned, Amlaith took that stone to his new captial of Fornost, and later the stone of Amon Sul was saved from the destruction of the watchtower and brought to Fornost as well. Those were the ones lost with Arvedui. All we know about Osgiliath's stone is that it was lost in the river when the Dome of Stars collapsed (I believe that this is in the timelines in the appendices).

That said, I thought it was a bit overly-contrived on Turbine's part to posit that somehow, Sauron managed to train up an orkish dive/rescue/salvage team to comb the bottom of the Anduin in search of a lost palantir, and then had somebody schlep it all the way up to Carn Dum. On the other hand, orc-frogmen capable of finding small objects on the bottoms of rivers might be something Sauron would be interested in having...

As far as the Annuminas connection, my thinking (and it's only that) is that Amarthiel knew that that was the only other place that had a proper pedestal for mounting the palantir for use - but that ignores the fact that Pippin and Aragorn seemed to be able to use one just fine while holding it.

Of the 7 palantiri, 3 were kept in Arnor and 4 in Gondor. The Osgiliath (in Gondor) and Amon Sul (in Arnor) stones were the largest, being almost as big as a man. The Osgiliath stone was the master of the 7 in Middle-Earth, able to eavesdrop on all the others.

The fate of the 7 stones is as follows:
Annuminas stone (Arnor) - moved to Fornost, then to Forochel, lost at sea, ULTIMATE FATE UNKNOWN
Ellendil stone (Arnor) - kept in Grey Havens, reclaimed by elves after fall of Arnor, taken by Cirdan back to Undying Lands
Amon Sul stone (Arnor) - moved to Fornost, then to Forochel, lost at sea, ULTIMATE FATE UNKNOWN
Orthanc stone (Gondor) - kept at Orthanc, used by Saruman, reclaimed by Aragorn, kept at Orthanc after he became king
Osgiliath stone (Gondor) - kept at Osgiliath, lost in river when its building collapsed, ULTIMATE FATE UNKNOWN
Minas Anor stone (Gondor) - kept at Minar Anor (Minas Tirith), used by Stewards, damaged (but usable) after funeral pyre
Minas Ithil stone (Gondor) - kept at Minas Ithil, claimed by Sauron, most likely destroyed when Mount Doom blew

If you take into account size of stone, the palantir that Mordirith and Amarthiel fought over would most likely be the Annuminas stone somehow recovered from the ice bay in Forochel. The larger Amon Sul and Osgiliath stones may have been too unwieldly to recover, or maybe the smaller Annuminas was somehow partially saved before Arvedui's ship sank so it was easier to recover. The only other option is Sauron recovered the larger Osgiliath stone, kept it, and gave his smaller Minas Ithil stone to Angmar.

If you dont take into account size of stone, the palantir they fought over would more likely be the Minas Ithil stone following the second option mentioned just above. This makes certain amount of sense since it was probably easier to recover a stone from a river than a frozen deep-water bay. Also if they had recovered from the Forochel bay, they would have more likely recovered both stones, not just one.

To use a stone, it had to be oriented just right. Aragorn would have been knowledgable enough to do this. Pippin may have just been lucky when he activated it. The stones did not need to be used at their old prepared locations. Those spots were just convenient for keeping the stones properly oriented and/or might have had info on how to properly orient a stone if the user did not already know how.

Originally Posted by Dotlbeme

Grrr...Now do you feel like a schmuck for saving her all those times?

By the third time I ran into her I would have put an axe into her brainpan if I'd been in my character's shoes. No way she was on the up-and-up. I don't think she could have been any less believable as a "good guy" if she'd been listening to Cannibal Corpse and wearing the skins of puppies as clothes.

Originally Posted by Krindus

Regardless of minor bumps in the lore, I will say this. I found everything about the Amarthiel storyline, from the foreshadowing with Oakheart, to the references of Amarthiel in Fornost and Carn Dum, to the actual story itself to one of Turbine's most impressive feats of storytelling ever. The Amarthiel event, in which GMs took over the character and made her attack random hotspots throughout Middle Earth, was incredibly fun and one of the more memorable experiences in this game. With all the work Turbine has done with layering and phasing, I am very disappointed that nothing like this has ever been attempted again, because it really brought a lot of life not only into the game, but into the community as well. They had a prime opportunity to do something similar with Gwyllion in Enedwaith and Rohan, but they unfortunately missed out big time. To this day, Amarthiel remains one of lotro's most frightening and awe-inspiring nemesis's so far.

This.
I think there is no part of the storyline in all three volumes that has been discussed as much as the Oakheart/Amarthiel drama. The build up over so many levels, and the epic conclusion where all the puzzle pieces fall into place - Fantastic. Sadly, I never met the GM controlled Amarthiel.

pssst...

She walks really, really slow.

AFAIK the palantir we see is the Osgiliath stone. Now, I can't recall a bluename post confirming this, but I recall another (perhaps even the same) post where a bluename explained, because a source not under their license gives us a detailed description of the Osgiliath stone, Turbine cannot make the stone the same in game. Thus they have to make it different, and the game version is a small stone and eligible to be carried around.

Edit: well this post by Berephon should put that one to rest. Meaning, speculation can continue:

Originally Posted by Berephon

Actually, it only took a Vilnas.

Anyway...alas, to my shame, it was originally intended to be the palantir of Osgiliath (forgetting that UT does indeed discuss its status as one of the larger and heavier of the palantiri). The reason for this is that it seemed much more likely that something of this nature could be fished out of the Anduin than fished out of the Ice Bay of Forochel.

That said, after our initial discussions, we opted to be more vague and let you all speculate.

[QUOTE=Shardis;6252110]
Ellendil stone (Arnor) - kept in Grey Havens, reclaimed by elves after fall of Arnor, taken by Cirdan back to Undying Lands
QUOTE]

The "Elendil" stone was kept in the Tower Hills and faced Aman to look back at what had been lost. I don't recall Tolkien saying it was ever removed.

The Tower Hills are on the eastern edge of the Grey Havens. You are correct that the Elendil palantir did not talk to the other palantiri and always looked west towards the Undying Lands and the Master-stone. After the north-kingdom Arnor fell, Cirdan and the elves of the Grey Haven took over guardianship of the Elendil palantir and no Man ever looked into it again (though elves would sometimes make pilgrimages to gaze upon the Undying Lands for a time). The Elendil palantir was placed on the same ship that took Gandalf, Bilbo, Frodo, and the elven ring-bearers to the Undying Lands.

That final detail about it being sent back to the Undying Lands was either in "Unfinished Tales" or "The Road Goes Ever On".

You can read the full details if you use the Wayback Machine to view The Thain's Book website that used to be at tuckborough.net.

Originally Posted by Krindus

Do we ever see her recover the Horn of Arnor as well?

We see her 4 places earlier on. Ered Luin where we "rescue" her from goblins (elf/dwarf prologue). Bree-land where we rescue her in a cave with critters (man prologue). Garth Agarwen where we rescue her from undead. Fornost where we rescue her from a pen with other slaves. Apparently
Hobbits don't meet her early on, the early story line overall only makes sense if you play all 4 races through the intro/prologue.

In Ered Luin it is not clear if she's looking for anything, but the other cases she does either want to find or recover something. Fornost she says she's freeing prisoners but could be looking for something or someone, it's not clear.

I've had two ideas in the past about her. First the pragmatic one that she really was just an old lady to escort when the game first came out, a running joke to encounter, and only got a deeper storyline role once they started developing later books and the story. My second idea after figuring out who she really was involved her recruiting various factions to assist Angmar. Amarthiel after all was still one of Mordirith's lieutenants.

Originally Posted by Krindus

The Amarthiel event, in which GMs took over the character and made her attack random hotspots throughout Middle Earth, was incredibly fun and one of the more memorable experiences in this game.

It had so many major problems though. The lag was immense and most people could not even move. You got nothing from these event except to see everyone move slowly. The attack on Rivendell for Landroval was the slowest I've ever seen the game at any time, and that includes weatherstock and the beta ettenmoors stresstest.

No loot unless you were in one of the couple of raids that got to tag something. Most people kept asking over and over for invites to a raid, any raid. With one hundred people standing around hoping to be the first person to tag an enemy and get a chance to win some unique cosmetic items, the odds were low. If you got defeated you stayed defeated until she left, no one rezzed anyone at all unless you were in one of those raids.

Finally some players seemed to have figured out where she would appear in advance and you'd hear game chat calling people to a location; ie, I ported to Aughaire after hearing a rumor, she had not shown up when I got to the stables there but had shown up in force by the time I rode to the other side of Aughaire, so people knew she was arriving soon somehow.