Are you seriously saying that after buying the most expensive expansion pack yet we are not only getting no instances on release but are also going to have to pay extra for them when they are released?
Like others, I don't see how this can be legal, it's false advertising. I imagine many people wouldn't have spent $70 on an expansion if they thought they were going to be asked to pay even more for a set of instances at the end of the year. "We copy pasted and forgot to remove that part" isn't going to cut it as an excuse.
If they are not going to cost extra, I'd have that discussion about pricing pretty quickly before this turns into yet another ****storm.
I'd also love to know what you expect raiding kins to do for 3months~ whilst there are literally 0 raids (only draigoch was bad, but better than nothing), but that is for another thread...
The purchase of RoR has no bearing on whether a customer will receive the cluster or not.
If it is a normal update, it will be free to VIPs regardless of their RoR purchase status, and it will cost TP for everyone else...
Ahh, ah you thinking that what this:
Originally Posted by Celestrata
"...The mention of the cluster being free to players who have purchased Rohan was incorrect, and that's what we have removed....
actually means is "We implied that the only people who would get the IC free are those who have pre-purchased the expac. What we meant was that the IC will be released in the same way that other updates are"?
Not being narky, genuine question
My reading of her quote was that no matter what, you've all got to pay for the IC.
So instead of an expansion with it's own instance cluster like any expansion should be,especially very anticipated ones like RoR we get the instances months later and we have to pay for them even if we payed $40 for quests,repeatables or not. BOO.
Ahh, ah you thinking that what this actually means is "We implied that the only people who would get the IC free are those who have pre-purchased the expac. What we meant was that the IC will be released in the same way that other updates are"?
Sapience said the cluster is "part of our regular update schedule". The Q&A says the cluster is "part of our regular LOTRO content updates"
If they make VIPs pay for a regular update that is not purchased as part of any expansion, that will be a violation of the VIP service contract.
""There are no plans to release an instance cluster simultaneously with the expansion. However, an instance cluster is planned for release in a following update."
We will be releasing an instance cluster after the update comes out. However, we have not discussed the pricing of the cluster at this time. The mention of the cluster being free to players who have purchased Rohan was incorrect, and that's what we have removed. There is no instance cluster coming out simultaneously with the expansion.
We will be discussing the pricing of the instance cluster at a later time.
Sorry, I have many hopes in RoR and pre-ordered it, but if those who payed $40 - $50 - $70 for a expansion and don't get endgame for free, that will be outraged and ridicioules. It will be the first MMO that released a expansion without regular (Instances like ToO/Draigoch) endgame, congratz on this new deed.
If you are vet who is around since launch, bought all expacs, including RoI legendary pack. You then basically unlocked the ENTIRE game, except for The Great River (Which is only 995 or even less during discount days) ! But as you got 2500 TP with RoI legendary, you could easily unlock that and still have TP left, plus saved up to 100 bucks for NOT paying a sub up till now!
There is ZERO reason to stay VIP anymore and pay 10 bucks a month. ZERO! You're basically just ridiculously overpaying for 500 TP a month!
It would have netted you now a measily 5000 TP that gets you just the Basic RoR package and then have not enough left to even unlock the 6th bagslot!
If you saved up the money instead, you could have bought a sh!itload of TP for 100 bucks (11.000 to be precise)! It would have given you the RoR legendary package deal and still have enough TP left to buy the new stuff they'll add until the next expac!
However, we have not discussed the pricing of the cluster at this time.
...
We will be discussing the pricing of the instance cluster at a later time.
See, this is what I don't understand. Why isn't there a standard pricing scheme for these things? I know the exact TP or $ price varies based on what's included and many other factors, but why do you have to have a discussion "at a later time" to determine who will have to pay?
It's in the VIP agreement that we don't pay for content updates. If the cluster is in a content update, we shouldn't have to pay for it. Why can't you just say that? The fact that you can't is the disturbing part. The actual price amount is irrelevant.
You shouldn't have to have a meeting to determine these things every time. It should be a concrete policy that any member of your team or any player can point to with confidence. We have zero confidence, because you have literally changed the content and pricing of expansions and updates every single year. It's a terrible, terrible business practice, and I'm sure you're just as exhausted as we are trying to keep up with it.
Elendilmir: Arda Shrugged - Crickhollow: The Colonists
Classic case of Turbine's ineptitude, can't even get a press release and marketing fluff sorted out such that it's clear, unambiguous and CORRECT.
Usually I don't indulge in 'misleading advertising' debates, but it seems to me very clear that anyone ordering before the ERROR in the release was corrected is entitled to a refund due to misleading advertising: the fact it may, or may not, have been inadvertent doesn't matter, it was clearly stated at the time they ordered the cluster would be included in the RoR pre-order price.
""There are no plans to release an instance cluster simultaneously with the expansion. However, an instance cluster is planned for release in a following update."
We will be releasing an instance cluster after the update comes out. However, we have not discussed the pricing of the cluster at this time. The mention of the cluster being free to players who have purchased Rohan was incorrect, and that's what we have removed. There is no instance cluster coming out simultaneously with the expansion.
We will be discussing the pricing of the instance cluster at a later time.
Gotta say it would suck to not be a vip if you forked over 70 bucks for bunch of quests, a crystal, and a bag, and had to buy the instance cluster later. I guess you get to do mounted combat now which doesn't interest me at all, but to each his own.
If they somehow release this instance cluster as a seperate purchase for everyone including vips that will be the end of the game for me. I'd drop my sub to f2p and turbine would never see a dime from me again. Hopefully this won't be the case. Hopefully they realize how pathetic this x pac is as well and give everyone the instance cluster as well. Then at least they could justify the price tag of this thing. I've seen alot of turbine bragging about how big the expansion is, but the size of the area does not carry over to content. Since they are not including instances in this xpac it seems to me that your paying anyhere from $50-70 for a quest pack, and a few extras.
Gotta say it would suck to not be a vip if you forked over 70 bucks for bunch of quests, a crystal, and a bag, and had to buy the instance cluster later. I guess you get to do mounted combat now which doesn't interest me at all, but to each his own.
If they somehow release this instance cluster as a seperate purchase for everyone including vips that will be the end of the game for me. I'd drop my sub to f2p and turbine would never see a dime from me again. Hopefully this won't be the case. Hopefully they realize how pathetic this x pac is as well and give everyone the instance cluster as well. Then at least they could justify the price tag of this thing. I've seen alot of turbine bragging about how big the expansion is, but the size of the area does not carry over to content. Since they are not including instances in this xpac it seems to me that your paying anyhere from $50-70 for a quest pack, and a few extras.
That is why I refuse to pre-order! I rather just wait, as the RoR questpack will be on sale in the TP store sooner or later anyway and get it for far less.
50 bucks for a questpack is beyond ########! The 70 bucks package even more so!
For anyone in the UK who wants a refund quote the unfair trading regulations 2008. Under this law what turbine did is not just a civil offence but potentially criminal under section 5 which makes it an offence to mislead the customer via writing or speech. This is legislation derived from a European statute so i imagine it applies across all EEC countries as well.
They can also not claim "no refunds" as this is part of your statutory rights under the unfair contact terms act. The sale of goods act applies here.
For anyone in the UK who wants a refund quote the unfair trading regulations 2008. Under this law what turbine did is not just a civil offence but potentially criminal under section 5 which makes it an offence to mislead the customer via writing or speech. This is legislation derived from a European statute so i imagine it applies across all EEC countries as well.
They can also not claim "no refunds" as this is part of your statutory rights under the unfair contact terms act. The sale of goods act applies here.
This works with steam as well
Even better you can cancel it any time up to 7 days after you receive the product thanks to the the Distance selling regulations, so that gives you till 12 September to cancel for a full refund which you have to get with 30 days.
All you need to do is cancel in writing, email is fine for this as well, and you can have your money back and you dont have to give a reason.
So pricing of the instance cluster is being discussed?
Won't even go out on a limb and say it's free to VIPs?
Par-for-the-course communication, regardless. Isn't there a red phone straight to the WB headquarters over there? Apparently no one's using it? This is the kind of thing you work out ahead of time before even telling your customers there is an instance pack coming. It will help out a whole bunch with the whole going back on your word thing that Turbine seems to have developed a penchant for.
If they charge for the xpac and also charge VIPs for any additional content until the next xpac, consider me buhbye.
See, this is what I don't understand. Why isn't there a standard pricing scheme for these things? I know the exact TP or $ price varies based on what's included and many other factors, but why do you have to have a discussion "at a later time" to determine who will have to pay?
It's in the VIP agreement that we don't pay for content updates. If the cluster is in a content update, we shouldn't have to pay for it. Why can't you just say that? The fact that you can't is the disturbing part. The actual price amount is irrelevant.
You shouldn't have to have a meeting to determine these things every time. It should be a concrete policy that any member of your team or any player can point to with confidence. We have zero confidence, because you have literally changed the content and pricing of expansions and updates every single year. It's a terrible, terrible business practice, and I'm sure you're just as exhausted as we are trying to keep up with it.
Sapience said the cluster is "part of our regular update schedule". The Q&A says the cluster is "part of our regular LOTRO content updates"
If they make VIPs pay for a regular update that is not purchased as part of any expansion, that will be a violation of the VIP service contract.
So they rename the Instance cluster something 'new' and charge everyone for it. You don't think they can navigate the legalize in the VIP agreements?
Until I see definitive confirmation that the Instances released 'later' are free for my Lifetime Subscription plan I HAVE to assume they are going to try and charge me for them.
So basically it looks to me like RoR is a quest pack with mounted combat and repeatable quests...for $40-$70...
So they rename the Instance cluster something 'new' and charge everyone for it. You don't think they can navigate the legalize in the VIP agreements?
They already called it a regular content update, something directly included as part of the VIP subscription. If they retroactively move it to a new category, they would end up with a second round of the entire FAQ debacle. The only difference is that this time, several people have referred to it as such in multiple places, so they can't really claim that it was a lack of proofreading.
With the first error, they only have to deal with refunds for the handful of people who paid before the FAQ was corrected. If they pull the same stunt against VIPs too, they'll have to deal with refunds for everyone with an active VIP subscription. They might be able to handle the legal problems from the first group, but I think they know better than to tempt fate a second time.
If we buy the Legendary edition for $70, the instances (or whatever they are) releasing later this fall, are NOT included in the $70, and we probably need to pay from 495 to 995 TP or more through the store?
With the Rise of Isengard edition (ALL of them) we got the instances released later for FREE (/included in the expansion purchase). AND we got a bundle of TP, AND it was CHEAPER than pre-ordering Riders of Rohan.
This is highly confusing.
Brethwyn Bearsbane of House Breddinga [85-Guardian]
Hygweard of Rohan, High Protector of Bree-Land and Lord of Emyn Uial
Children of the Sun - Gilrain
...
If we buy the Legendary edition for $70, the instances (or whatever they are) releasing later this fall, are NOT included in the $70, and we probably need to pay from 495 to 995 TP or more through the store?
Try 1500 TP. That is the store price of the current instance cluster of 4 instances+raid. Cant get much smaller. Probably wont get cheaper as well.
With the Rise of Isengard edition (ALL of them) we got the instances released later for FREE (/included in the expansion purchase). AND we got a bundle of TP, AND it was CHEAPER than pre-ordering Riders of Rohan.
This is highly confusing.
Its simple. You will get a new form of endgame, and thats what you are buying with your money. Instances are not considered part of this new type of endgame. I´m willing to throw them a bone and say that they´ll likely come up with a lot of stuff to do, since this is the only region we can use the new and expensively coded mounted combat function. On the other hand, if you dont like mounted combat, it is probably going to be a boring time.
So pricing of the instance cluster is being discussed?
Won't even go out on a limb and say it's free to VIPs?
Par-for-the-course communication, regardless. Isn't there a red phone straight to the WB headquarters over there? Apparently no one's using it? This is the kind of thing you work out ahead of time before even telling your customers there is an instance pack coming. It will help out a whole bunch with the whole going back on your word thing that Turbine seems to have developed a penchant for.
If they charge for the xpac and also charge VIPs for any additional content until the next xpac, consider me buhbye.
There's no going out on a limb when everything is about how much $$$ they can squeeze out of their players.
Now I wonder what the pricing was when it INCLUDED the instances. $60 - $90?!?
It's been said in the past that Rohan needs to be a stellar update to save this game...I'd say it's off to a rough start. I for one pre-ordered every xpack since joining in 2009. I will not pre-order this one and have no plans to buy Rohan. The last 2 updates kept me interested for about 3 weeks each and the only good part of the zones were the epics. I think I'll hop on the f2p wagon at this point, returning for a couple weeks whenever updates are released. In the meantime I'm funneling my money to other games that know how to treat their customers.
Please note the following is humour, not in any way to be taken seriously:
Yes, I have screenshots.
They are available for purchase at the price of:
$1.00 if you purchased the basic expac, with a free saved version of this thread, but with Turbine posts removed. Excludes the original copy of the backed up html version of the cs FAQ
$1.50 if you purchasd the Heroic expac, with a free saved version of this thread, including full documentation of Turbine posts. Excludes the original copy of the backed up html version of the cs FAQ
$2.50 if you purchased the Legendary expac, with a free saved version of this thread, including full documentation of Turbine posts. Includes a backed up html copy of the original CS FAQ. BONUS will add in a digital representation of random ingame character carrying 6 backpacks being mauled by a green Orc as they are too encumbered to be able to fight back!
Please note, I do NOT have screenshots or backups of the CS faq, this was for humour purpose only.
Please note the following is humour, not in any way to be taken seriously:
Yes, I have screenshots.
They are available for purchase at the price of:
$1.00 if you purchased the basic expac, with a free saved version of this thread, but with Turbine posts removed. Excludes the original copy of the backed up html version of the cs FAQ
$1.50 if you purchasd the Heroic expac, with a free saved version of this thread, including full documentation of Turbine posts. Excludes the original copy of the backed up html version of the cs FAQ
$2.50 if you purchased the Legendary expac, with a free saved version of this thread, including full documentation of Turbine posts. Includes a backed up html copy of the original CS FAQ. BONUS will add in a digital representation of random ingame character carrying 6 backpacks being mauled by a green Orc as they are too encumbered to be able to fight back!
This is just too brilliant!!
+5 rep
~Nevanna~Lynxa~Amasal~
"I am rather tired, and no longer young enough to pillage the night to make up for the deficit of hours in the day..." JRR Tolkien, Letter # 174
Please note the following is humour, not in any way to be taken seriously:
Yes, I have screenshots.
They are available for purchase at the price of:
$1.00 if you purchased the basic expac, with a free saved version of this thread, but with Turbine posts removed. Excludes the original copy of the backed up html version of the cs FAQ
$1.50 if you purchasd the Heroic expac, with a free saved version of this thread, including full documentation of Turbine posts. Excludes the original copy of the backed up html version of the cs FAQ
$2.50 if you purchased the Legendary expac, with a free saved version of this thread, including full documentation of Turbine posts. Includes a backed up html copy of the original CS FAQ. BONUS will add in a digital representation of random ingame character carrying 6 backpacks being mauled by a green Orc as they are too encumbered to be able to fight back!
Please note, I do NOT have screenshots or backups of the CS faq, this was for humour purpose only.
Due to the ambiguous nature of the words "digital representation" I have decided to make the bonus image free to all people viewing the prior post.
This (whether intentional or not) bait-and-switch thing with the FAQ has got me rather irate. I did pre-order after checking all available information. After that, I thought nothing of it, really. I happened to check the forums today, though, and found this thread. Now, they're saying that I didn't order what I ordered (according to the FAQ)? How do Turbine justify what boils down to false advertising? And, if I'm wrong in thinking that this is false advertising, please tell me. (I'm serious: tell me if I'm wrong) It is not my intention to make inflammatory statements, I just want answers: Do people who pre-ordered under the "incorrect" information on the FAQ have to purchase the IC that will be released after RoR? Is the IC going to be, like all prior updates free to VIP? Is the answer the same if they're F2P or VIP?
If people cannot write well, they cannot think well, and if they cannot think well, others will do their thinking for them.
-George Orwell-
This (whether intentional or not) bait-and-switch thing with the FAQ has got me rather irate. I did pre-order after checking all available information. After that, I thought nothing of it, really. I happened to check the forums today, though, and found this thread. Now, they're saying that I didn't order what I ordered (according to the FAQ)? How do Turbine justify what boils down to false advertising? And, if I'm wrong in thinking that this is false advertising, please tell me. (I'm serious: tell me if I'm wrong) It is not my intention to make inflammatory statements, I just want answers: Do people who pre-ordered under the "incorrect" information on the FAQ have to purchase the IC that will be released after RoR? Is the IC going to be, like all prior updates free to VIP? Is the answer the same if they're F2P or VIP?
Any IT pro out here can tell you that the explanation as to why they couldn't update the FAQ until days later was nothing but a LIE!
I am an IT pro for over 12 years now and have been responsible for web servers and applications for over 8-9 years during that time!
They either have a totally stupid and ###### coded web page, because otherwise it is incredibly easy to have an updated FAQ immediately appear to your customer's webbrowsers.
This was Bait and Switch! Nothing more. Nothing less! Because they know that most pre-orders are done immediately within the first couple days when announced!
There is a lot more going on here, then what they are telling us!
This was Bait and Switch! Nothing more. Nothing less! Because they know that most pre-orders are done immediately within the first couple days when announced!
You're being hysterical.
As a firm Turbine/Warner's 'hater' I have no reason at all to think this was deliberate. It's as the 'blue' said, a simple screw-up due to lack of diligence on the part of Sapience or whoever is responsible for authorising posting of this sort of information.
That of course is no defense to the 'misleading advertising' charge, it doesn't have to be intentional in order for it to incur liability.
As a firm Turbine/Warner's 'hater' I have no reason at all to think this was deliberate. It's as the 'blue' said, a simple screw-up due to lack of diligence on the part of Sapience or whoever is responsible for authorising posting of this sort of information.
That of course is no defense to the 'misleading advertising' charge, it doesn't have to be intentional in order for it to incur liability.
I am talking about the simple fact that they waited several days before updating it! Not to mention the excuse as to why they couldn't do it any sooner.
That was just an insult to our intelligence.
When you wait that long to correct a mistake, you have no other choice then to leave the FAQ as is and make the instance cluster part of the expansion purchase!
And seriously! With the ridiculous prices they are asking right now, that should not be a problem for them at all!
You´re still being hysterical. The "technical reasons" referred to that the line in the FAQ was still there for a few more minutes after Sapiences announcement of it being removed.
As to if the whole thing was intentional: I think we´ve seen enough mess so far that I wouldnt automatically project bad motives on this one thing.
Last edited by Vandervahn; Jun 09 2012 at 05:08 AM.
Wow, I pre-purchased assuming the instance cluster was being included. It does seem illegal to just take it down and say it was a mistake. I don't know what to say atm, other than maybe I should be looking into GW2 after all. I'm sure I'll keep playing since I'm a lifer and already purchased 3 copies of RoR, but this is so incredibly wrong, and perhaps a sign that they've lost touch with reality. I won't plunk down money again, not in the store, not for expansions like this.
Pre-purchase including the expected instances is one thing. To say it then retract it after you buy is inexcusable. I was very happy with lotro prior to this. I had assumed this would be like ROI which I was happy with.
Loved the fake text in the combat window. 2 quivers, 3 backpacks and Wardens pack, and going for a Lute and sword... sounds like an interesting new class
You´re still being hysterical. The "technical reasons" referred to that the line in the FAQ was still there for a few more minutes after Sapiences announcement of it being removed.
As to if the whole thing was intentional: I think we´ve seen enough mess so far that I wouldnt automatically project bad motives on this one thing.
It has nothing to do with hysterical. A frew minutes is a HUGE difference compared to a few days!
If they weren't able to update it sooner, then they should have immediately taken down the pre-order page and make a post with explanation on the forum. Apologize and offer refunds to those who pre-ordered during the time the wrong FAQ was up!
Instead, they waited way too long, update the FAQ and make a post on the forums saying it was a mistake, suck it up, you will have to pay for it seperately (as that is basically what it just comes down to, no matter how you slice it).
I find that pretty rude and huge slap in the face of your customers! Especially since people were already quite upset regarding the insane price increase of the expac compared to previous years! over 30% increase is not nothing! Especially in these economic difficult times.
They messed up BIG TIME! yet again! Learned absolutely NOTHING from last year's debacle!
The only way for Turbine to deal with this dissaster, is a downright apology to their customers with a confirmation that the Instance Cluster will be free for all who buy the Expansion!
On top of that it wouldn't hurt them much to throw some free TP in, to gain back some trust.
Wow, I pre-purchased assuming the instance cluster was being included. It does seem illegal to just take it down and say it was a mistake. I don't know what to say atm, other than maybe I should be looking into GW2 after all. I'm sure I'll keep playing since I'm a lifer and already purchased 3 copies of RoR, but this is so incredibly wrong, and perhaps a sign that they've lost touch with reality. I won't plunk down money again, not in the store, not for expansions like this.
Pre-purchase including the expected instances is one thing. To say it then retract it after you buy is inexcusable. I was very happy with lotro prior to this. I had assumed this would be like ROI which I was happy with.
Incredibly shocked and disappointed.
I do not know the law in the EU (I do know it is better than in the US and in the US varies state by state), so I would be surprised if you could not get a refund. Where I live, Florida, if you bought the product thinking that the instance cluster was included because of the mistake by Turbine. You are can get a refund regardless of the no refund policy.
Even in the not so well consumer protected US, there are always exceptions to a no refund policy.
LOL.
My sister pointed out this little piece to me, but unlike her if found the introductory comment even funnier than the picture and combat text (and they made me laugh outright)... that wouldn't happen to be a suggestion as to how Turbine should handle this mess with the incorrect details on the instance cluster now would it?
Hate to say it, but this will probably be the first time I will not be buying an expansion. No instance cluster at release with a $40 expansion and considering charging more for it? Are you kidding me?
The people making the decisions for this game are out of their minds. It's almost beyond belief. And considering the competition on the horizon (and even currently available), Turbine should be interested in appealing to their playerbase, not driving them away.
""There are no plans to release an instance cluster simultaneously with the expansion. However, an instance cluster is planned for release in a following update."
We will be releasing an instance cluster after the update comes out. However, we have not discussed the pricing of the cluster at this time. The mention of the cluster being free to players who have purchased Rohan was incorrect, and that's what we have removed. There is no instance cluster coming out simultaneously with the expansion.
We will be discussing the pricing of the instance cluster at a later time.
Thanks for the update but I'm a little blown away. The main reason I purchased the more expensive Legendary package was because of the (now incorrect but recently corrected FAQ) stating that the instance cluster would be part of the pre-order price. Even if this is a typo left over from ROI, the company (Turbine/WB) needs to honor it for those of us who purchased it prior to the correction. Otherwise it is deceptive advertising even if it was not intentional as you say. Thanks.
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Re: RoR pre-order FAQ ommision: Please explain
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That is why I refuse to pre-order! I rather just wait, as the RoR questpack will be on sale in the TP store sooner or later anyway and get it for far less.
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