First of all, hello captains! I hit 75 on my Captain a few weeks ago, and I decided to go for a (off)Tanking captain. I'm aware it not a common path to take, but I thought it would be a bit of fun to see just how much I can Tank as a captain. (Hypothesis: everything upto and including orthanc tier 1; something which I hope to prove.)
The build is shaping up nicely, and I'm at the point where I'm putting theory to practice, and started tanking content. So far I've tackled Fangorn's edge and the Limlight Prequests. Both without issue, it was interesting trying to pick up as many orcs as possible in the last part of FE without force taunting the trolls/ents.
Here are my thoughts, I'd appreciate any more insight.
The obvious issue is tanking multiple mobs, I do what I can with threatening shout, but that can only do so much. The RAT should focus on stuff I've not got aggro on, but I can use the force taunts to pull things of induction classes, and "in harms way" to reduce the damage people are taking from the strays.
Does Routing cry have a straight threat component, or just the force taunt? I tend to keep it back to use as an emergency taunt to get aggro back or pick up adds quickly, but I'm not sure if I should be using it all the time to boost my total threat.
When starting a fight I try to get into aggresive stance before hitting threatening shout, to get the most threat from it. I sometimes hit routing cry at the start to get everything if there are multiple mobs, which allows me to do this.
In the fight I use noble mark on the RAT's target, keep aggresive stance up and hit threatening shout when it comes of cooldown. I have copious use of defensive strikes, and do the battle shout -->DS/PA --> LoE rotation as it comes up. With defeat responses I use SL for threat if I think I require it, otherwise rallying cry for heals.
Traiting I go 5y2b, with captains hope and NFW as the blues. I drop Captains victory, Composure and Defiance from the yellows, thoughts? For legendaries IDOME, FB and LoM
Traiting I go 5y2b, with captains hope and NFW as the blues. I drop Captains victory, Composure and Defiance from the yellows, thoughts? For legendaries IDOME, FB and LoM
I have to say, I'd not be going 2b. What tanking I've done (not tons, some 3 mans), I've had a pretty easy time keeping single target aggro with noble mark, aggressive stance, and not much more. But it was harder to keep AOE aggro, and I liked renewed voice so I can PA 1/3 more often (with PA targets >= 4, helps with the AOE aggro). Turn of the tide is also very cute with the ungated routing cry. However, NFW may be needed -- I found tanking was very power draining, and it is made worse if you shield brother someone as it lacks the power restore. I'm unclear on why you'd use FB if you are using Shield Brother, as you get the 100% reflection of SB anyway from the LOM capstone, and the extra group heals aren't your problem. If you are a Captain tanking, aggro and mitigations are your focus, not giving out heals or x-brother benefits...
@Delgon - My arguments would be I don't just want to be a sub-standard Guardian, that means you need to replace you lesser personal survivability with something else. Hitting heals and brother-skills plugs that gap, your reducing the fellowship healing need from the healer, and making what you do need better. This in turn gives the healer more time to heal you. I take your point about Renewed voice and PA, I think it's a case of balance between survivability (from extra morale) to AOE aggro (from more pressing attacks), which I think depends on what exactly your doing. Yes Turn the Tide is Cute, but not nearly cute enough for me to unslot NFW.
@Nakiami- Good shout. I was mistaken and thought it was +10% to threat generation, rather than perceived threat.
@Delgon - My arguments would be I don't just want to be a sub-standard Guardian, that means you need to replace you lesser personal survivability with something else.
Hmmm. I think tanks job is to keep aggro and while doing that mitigate enough damage to make the healers job reasonable . Sacrificing either of those to try and do other things for the fellowship decreases your ability to tank. As a tank, a Captain will basically IMHO be a sub-standard Guardian/Warden, that is the nature of our class... What do you think your priorities are supposed to be as a tank?
I'm going to disagree with Delgon here by pointing out that the Fellowship-Brother Inspire is actually very important as an aggro tool. The exact threat numbers are all a bit mysterious, by design, but one thing that's clear is that healing threat is based off the amount of healing done, and by definition you heal more total morale with an fellowship heal than with a two-target heal.
Of course, as a heal Inspire is pretty weak, so it's not going to snap anybody on to you the way Threatening Shout or one of our force taunts can, but it's still a source of steady AoE aggro, something we sorely lack otherwise.
I'm going to disagree with Delgon here by pointing out that the Fellowship-Brother Inspire is actually very important as an aggro tool. The exact threat numbers are all a bit mysterious, by design, but one thing that's clear is that healing threat is based off the amount of healing done, and by definition you heal more total morale with an fellowship heal than with a two-target heal.
Of course, as a heal Inspire is pretty weak, so it's not going to snap anybody on to you the way Threatening Shout or one of our force taunts can, but it's still a source of steady AoE aggro, something we sorely lack otherwise.
OK, if it is considered as an aggro tool, fine. I was thinking of it as a fellowship healing tool, which, IMHO, shouldn't be a top tank priority but rather a fringe benefit/nice to have thing.
Hmmm. I think tanks job is to keep aggro and while doing that mitigate enough damage to make the healers job reasonable. Sacrificing either of those to try and do other things for the fellowship decreases your ability to tank. As a tank, a Captain will basically IMHO be a sub-standard Guardian/Warden, that is the nature of our class... What do you think your priorities are supposed to be as a tank?
My argument wasn't that you should do other things that aren't contributing to your job as a tank. It was that you need to fill the gap left by lower survivability in a different way. (My understanding is) A guardian tanks by directing as much damage as possible onto himself, mitigating as much of that damage as possible. Any damage taken, be it what remains on him, or damage to the rest of the fellowship becomes the problem of the healer. Now you could play your captain in the same way, get aggro, mitigate damage, let healers heal (with some warden self healing for good measure). I made the statment to defend the use of fellowship brother.
In short a captain tank replaces personal survivability with fellowship survivability, Which makes FB is an important tool.
You can barely rely on Inspire fellowship hot to get you threat because first of all, it only seems to make threat when it actually heals lost morale and not full bars and second of all, the fellowship version of the hot is really weak.
First of all, hello captains! I hit 75 on my Captain a few weeks ago, and I decided to go for a (off)Tanking captain. I'm aware it not a common path to take, but I thought it would be a bit of fun to see just how much I can Tank as a captain. (Hypothesis: everything upto and including orthanc tier 1; something which I hope to prove.)
The build is shaping up nicely, and I'm at the point where I'm putting theory to practice, and started tanking content. So far I've tackled Fangorn's edge and the Limlight Prequests. Both without issue, it was interesting trying to pick up as many orcs as possible in the last part of FE without force taunting the trolls/ents.
Here are my thoughts, I'd appreciate any more insight.
The obvious issue is tanking multiple mobs, I do what I can with threatening shout, but that can only do so much. The RAT should focus on stuff I've not got aggro on, but I can use the force taunts to pull things of induction classes, and "in harms way" to reduce the damage people are taking from the strays.
Does Routing cry have a straight threat component, or just the force taunt? I tend to keep it back to use as an emergency taunt to get aggro back or pick up adds quickly, but I'm not sure if I should be using it all the time to boost my total threat.
When starting a fight I try to get into aggresive stance before hitting threatening shout, to get the most threat from it. I sometimes hit routing cry at the start to get everything if there are multiple mobs, which allows me to do this.
In the fight I use noble mark on the RAT's target, keep aggresive stance up and hit threatening shout when it comes of cooldown. I have copious use of defensive strikes, and do the battle shout -->DS/PA --> LoE rotation as it comes up. With defeat responses I use SL for threat if I think I require it, otherwise rallying cry for heals.
Traiting I go 5y2b, with captains hope and NFW as the blues. I drop Captains victory, Composure and Defiance from the yellows, thoughts? For legendaries IDOME, FB and LoM
So anyone got thoughts?
Oh nice a Leader of Men Captain. I'd love to see some more of these around, so I wish you a lot of luck - and I only "hope" you don't get pressured into giving it up due to general prejudices.
I've never really gave this traitline a serious attempt - but I have considered it before, and my only thoughts would be you may want to consider investing some traits or legacies into your Melee Skills Healing, since as a Leader of Men Captain you get to use the HoT from Inspire on yourself, and that sounds pretty useful. So that would be the only bit of unique advice I would offer and like to see you try out.
You can do limited tanking with a LtC build - not all captain tanks are LoM, stop trying to pigeon-hole members of the community.
....
First I never said "all captain tanks are LoM". I run instances with Lead the Charge Captains as my tank all of the time... so as ususal you are simply making stuff up and "mischaraterizing" things I say in an attempt to start another "flamewar".
And I'm not "Pigeon-hole" anything...stop accusing me of that. It's weird. In fact I was doing the exact oppsite, and trying to encourage more variety lol
You can do limited tanking with a LtC build - not all captain tanks are LoM, stop trying to pigeon-hole members of the community.
Come on, was that really necessary? Are you just baiting him on purpose? OP is running LoM seeing as he mentioned being 5y.
I already have one of you on ignore, and regret clicking the "View Post" buttons in this thread since you two are still at it. Do I have to ignore both of you to get rid of the inanity or can you just grow up?
A spaceship from another star / They ask me where all the people are
I tell them I'm the only one / There was a war, but I must have won
You're going to want to stack tactical mit. You can get some pretty nice tanking gear if you don't mind PvMPing a bit (ring set, and the Reinforced Kapwin set specifically - buy 65 and trade it for the 75 to make the commendations stretch further).
There's also a pretty good Great River crafted necklace, and the martyr set jewelry is pretty useful because of the bubble it gives you.
Originally Posted by Nakiami
Come on, was that really necessary? Are you just baiting him on purpose? OP is running LoM seeing as he mentioned being 5y.
I already have one of you on ignore, and regret clicking the "View Post" buttons in this thread since you two are still at it. Do I have to ignore both of you to get rid of the inanity or can you just grow up?
Oh nice a Leader of Men Captain. I'd love to see some more of these around, so I wish you a lot of luck - and I only "hope" you don't get pressured into giving it up due to general prejudices.
I've never really gave this traitline a serious attempt - but I have considered it before, and my only thoughts would be you may want to consider investing some traits or legacies into your Melee Skills Healing, since as a Leader of Men Captain you get to use the HoT from Inspire on yourself, and that sounds pretty useful. So that would be the only bit of unique advice I would offer and like to see you try out.
Hmm an interesting point, my emblem has Strength of Will Healing (obviously), Rallying cry Cooldown & Healing as majors and Grave Wound Cooldown, Shadows Lament Cooldown & Shield of Dúnedain Cooldown. I'm not quite sure what I'd replace, I think this is a good emblem for high defeat response fights, but Melee healing might be better in others. Clearly it would have been better to have 4 majors, but after 6 symbols I gave up and picked the best one I had.
In other news I tanked Foundry T2 without much issue, trash was a little messy as there's a lot of it, and I forgot to turn 1 troll :s, but it largely went smoothly.
Hmm an interesting point, my emblem has Strength of Will Healing (obviously), Rallying cry Cooldown & Healing as majors and Grave Wound Cooldown, Shadows Lament Cooldown & Shield of Dúnedain Cooldown. I'm not quite sure what I'd replace, I think this is a good emblem for high defeat response fights, but Melee healing might be better in others. Clearly it would have been better to have 4 majors, but after 6 symbols I gave up and picked the best one I had.
In other news I tanked Foundry T2 without much issue, trash was a little messy as there's a lot of it, and I forgot to turn 1 troll :s, but it largely went smoothly.
Emblem I have dedicated for tanking is:
Rally Cry Cooldown
Vocal Skills Healing
Melee Skills Healing
Strength of Will Healing
Muster Courage Cooldown (use SfW + NfW as the non-LoM traits)
Grave Wound Cooldown
+Vit Legacy (Used the RoR preorder to fix yet another failed SA, so I could focus on doing other things)
For the Relics:
T6 True Setting w/ Incoming Healing
T8 Crit Defence
T6 True Rune of the Two Trees
T7 Uber Might Crafted
FYI my cappy has only tanked Moria stuff, so can't offer higher level specifics, but Foundry boss? No problem, even our non-tank geared cappy's tank them. T1 Orthanc trash? No problem. We regularly have a cappy tank a F&F boss too. T2 Orthanc, I can't remember how much cappy tanking might have happened. *shrugs
PS: Not sure why you suggest the RAT should follow what you haven't built threat on, typically the RAT follows the tank's target entirely to focus on what solid threat has been built on.
"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave
PS: Not sure why you suggest the RAT should follow what you haven't built threat on, typically the RAT follows the tank's target entirely to focus on what solid threat has been built on.
I was thinking of minor trash, say an orc in the foundry. Our ranged taunt and the AOE taunt are the same skill, which means if a mob gets free, you either TS risking loosing the other mobs your currently tanking, run in there to pick it up potentially dragging a whole bunch of stuff with you, or you off tank and kill it.
In an ideal situation you'd have aggro on everything, but if it does get free I think its better to off tank and kill rather than you trying to pick it up and risk loosing more adds, group makeup permitting.
Hmm an interesting point, my emblem has Strength of Will Healing (obviously), Rallying cry Cooldown & Healing as majors and Grave Wound Cooldown, Shadows Lament Cooldown & Shield of Dúnedain Cooldown. I'm not quite sure what I'd replace, I think this is a good emblem for high defeat response fights, but Melee healing might be better in others. Clearly it would have been better to have 4 majors, but after 6 symbols I gave up and picked the best one I had.
In other news I tanked Foundry T2 without much issue, trash was a little messy as there's a lot of it, and I forgot to turn 1 troll :s, but it largely went smoothly.
Sorry to hear that Clough. Going through 6 symbols and still no major on a reforge, that's gotta be pretty rough. That's what... 0 out of 18 attempts? I would be pissed lol
With your luck it might be worth it for you to pre-order that expansion just for that Crystal of Rememberance thingy that lets you add an extra major legacy to your Legendary.
Nice job on tanking Foundry Tier2 though. I've met a lot of actual tank classes like Guardians and Wardens who can struggle on that one, especially on that last fight. So well done.
Sorry to hear that Clough. Going through 6 symbols and still no major on a reforge, that's gotta be pretty rough. That's what... 0 out of 18 attempts? I would be pissed lol
With your luck it might be worth it for you to pre-order that expansion just for that Crystal of Rememberance thingy that lets you add an extra major legacy to your Legendary.
Yeah the conspiracy theorist in me says they nerfed the major legacy reforge chance to make those crystals all the more desirable, but hey ho was probably just very unlucky. I have got the legendary edition, but the crystals don't seem to have a maximum level for use, so I think I'll hold onto them for my lv85 items rather than burning them now.
Yeah the conspiracy theorist in me says they nerfed the major legacy reforge chance to make those crystals all the more desirable, but hey ho was probably just very unlucky. I have got the legendary edition, but the crystals don't seem to have a maximum level for use, so I think I'll hold onto them for my lv85 items rather than burning them now.
Guess that's not a bad idea - though they will be available later on to buy from the store. So if you do decide to go ahead and use it, just know you will be able to get another one later after you are 85.
Yay, just tanked the first 3 wings of Orthanc, including tanking various trash, the Frost boss, and successfully tank swapped with our Guardian on Lightning. I force taunted Kalbak whenever they came up, as you can force taunt for about 30s out of 50s if you do it right, so you can keep both tanks shocks low enough.
Gear still has a little way to go, I think it was a bit tricker than usual for our healers, but still I'm pretty chuffed.
Yay, just tanked the first 3 wings of Orthanc, including tanking various trash, the Frost boss, and successfully tank swapped with our Guardian on Lightning. I force taunted Kalbak whenever they came up, as you can force taunt for about 30s out of 50s if you do it right, so you can keep both tanks shocks low enough.
Gear still has a little way to go, I think it was a bit tricker than usual for our healers, but still I'm pretty chuffed.
Yay, just tanked the first 3 wings of Orthanc, including tanking various trash, the Frost boss, and successfully tank swapped with our Guardian on Lightning. I force taunted Kalbak whenever they came up, as you can force taunt for about 30s out of 50s if you do it right, so you can keep both tanks shocks low enough.
Gear still has a little way to go, I think it was a bit tricker than usual for our healers, but still I'm pretty chuffed.
Welcome to the club, brother! Got wings 1-4 T1 under my own belt several weeks back when the kin warden threw me a bone and let me hold the Acid, Lightning, and Shadow bosses. Makes you feel pretty good about captains.
Btw, how did you force taunt for 30s? Composure ToN? Or do you mean non-consecutive?
Which is 30s every 50s. (I do have GW cooldown). At this point you have aggro more often than you need, but this gives the guard a buffer in case you get resisted.
Out of interest, when you raid as a tank, do you go with the 2 tanks in the same group, or in different ones?
Which is 30s every 50s. (I do have GW cooldown). At this point you have aggro more often than you need, but this gives the guard a buffer in case you get resisted.
Interesting.
Don't know how much folks have thought about it, but the Moors perseverence set will take Routing Cry cooldown from 45s to 36s, which might be useful sometimes...
So you go from 60% of the time forced aggro to 65%. tbh I can't see it being useful enough to justify dropping 3 pieces of the tanking set.
I'm wondering if this would work. Grave wound 10s
Guardian Challenge 13s Routing cry 10s Grave Wound 10s
Guardian Challenge 13s
Engage + Threat skills 7s
repeat
This should give you constant forced aggro, with the exception of the last 7s where the tank uses engage to get the top of the aggro. Then hits the highest threat skills they have available. You then have challenge the darkness (guard) + CompTON (cpt) for resists. Alas it's probably to tricky to pull of, but would allow the DPS to ignore threat on a single target boss fight such as lightning, and Threat seems to be the barrier to max DPS.
3-Perseverance is probably worth it while tanking trash. What damage you take from decreased survivability, you'd make up in increased Rallying Cries, assuming the trash is dropping. Oh, and quicker Routing Cry.
Originally Posted by 00CloughRN
Out of interest, when you raid as a tank, do you go with the 2 tanks in the same group, or in different ones?
I've done both. For F&F bosses, generally we split up. Trash, I've run in the same group as the other tank just to put ShBro on him and free the other capt(s) up to do BladeBro. But then you run into the problem of a warden leeching off you, which can be bad. All in all, I'd say no just put it on your healer, due to fellowship wide threat leeches (I guess Whirling Retaliation with 10m radius is no problem; Conviction with 25m radius is).
In your force aggro swapping situation for Lightning, sure stack up with the tank if your healers are ok with that. I've only ever single tanked it. I tried to swap aggro with a guard before, but I screwed it up by not noticing Noble Mark got resisted at the beginning. Then we just had the guard single tank it.
After fellowship brother I never went back to the yellow line again, but after reading this thread I have been giving it some serious thought. I ran a t2 foundry yesterday and the guard was in terrible op gear including some Moira gear. I found myself pulling aggro in LtC and ended up tanking the second boss most of the fight because the tank got knocked into the walls, multiple times. Even in LtC with 0 incoming healing and no mitigations to speak of I tanked ok, put up a quick shield brother on someone to get SoW up on myself and the mini had no problem at all keeping me up. I'm thinking about seriously building a tank set now. I'm going to get the LL tank jewellery as well as the crafted pieces. My question for you guys is what you would advise for the armor set. I could save up and get the ToO raid set but I would rather get the purple set so I can tank as I save up for the raid set. I havent looked at totals yet on the purple set to see if it's worth getting or not, I'm just chomping at the bit now to try my hand at tanking. I guess the question is how serviceable the purple set would be, I plan on tanking 6 mans for now but maybe ToO once I get the hang of the captain tank.
Well what I did was go with the Draigoch set, and upgrade to the Tognir set as I unlocked/could afford pieces.
It's quite nice as the 2 cheapest pieces of Orthanc replace possibly the 2 most meh pieces of the draigoch set from a tanking perspective. I had a 3rd piece before I started tanking foundry, but I was missing the limlight jewellery at that point.
There are 2 reasons why I wouldn't bother with the Instance set.
a) I don't think it is worth it if you are going to go onto the Tognir set to spend seals on the leaders armour, I'd rather get my first piece there.
b) Bits of the Draigoch set is nice for tanking, might is good for Physical Mitigation, Parry and Block, which is all important as a tank. The draigoch set all has a good helping of might.
The big thing you didn't mention is your LI. There aren't that many tanking legacies, and so there is a lot of cross over with a healing/DPS set. But the relics you slot I suspect are very different. I'm getting a huge chunk of incoming healing from my relics.
My question for you guys is what you would advise for the armor set. I could save up and get the ToO raid set but I would rather get the purple set so I can tank as I save up for the raid set. I havent looked at totals yet on the purple set to see if it's worth getting or not, I'm just chomping at the bit now to try my hand at tanking. I guess the question is how serviceable the purple set would be, I plan on tanking 6 mans for now but maybe ToO once I get the hang of the captain tank.
I tanked all the 3mans/foundry/draigoch before I got the full Tognir set. Most of my gear was crafted (0 tanking jewelry pieces from skirmishes) and I could get over 14k morale buffed and a very decent block rating. I believe now you can go even higher thanks to the Great River barter items and purple/teal drops from RoF (the purple earings with high vitality you can even buy on AH).
The shoulder piece from Dargnach T2 has very high incoming healing;
The teal cloak from Pits T2 (300 morale, 1.5k tactical and physical mitigation) is great;
Dedicated tanking LIs make a difference too (mostly due to relics focusing at block, incoming healing and icpr which a captain tank needs a lot).
Hi everyone, I must say I think this is a great thread and that im very impressed that you managed to tank everything you've written! My question is: which armour set pieces do you use? As I understood it you use Tognir armour pieces, but may I ask which and how many of those?
I think ideally you want a full set. The way I built it up was as follows;
I dislike draigoch, so I got the shoulders and helm first.
Then I got the gauntlets as they were cheaper.
Then the leggings as I hadn't completed saruman.
Then the 2 remaining pieces.
If you just wanted to tank the foundry/3 mans, I'd suggest just 3 pieces (as you won't need to sacrifice as much DPS to survive) in which case I'd go helm, shoulders and boots, as it gives you a health dose of tanking stats without hitting your might as badly.
I don't think it matters when you do this - and TS is faster, so I'd hit it first.
Numbers made up:
Code:
Skill RawThreat Perceived Threat
TS 50 50
CA 60 60
GW 70 77
or ..
Skill RawThreat Perceived Threat
CA 10 10
GW 20 22
TS 70 77
Total threat after using those three skills is the same no matter the order (as long as you don't GW before CA..).
Are you sure these numbers are correct? The way I see it for the first scenario, when you use GW, your perceived threat is increased for the skills that you use from that point on, but not the previous threat you've build before using it. So instead of ending up with 77 perceived Threat, it would be 50 + 10 + 10 * 1.1 = 71.
Are you sure these numbers are correct? The way I see it for the first scenario, when you use GW, your perceived threat is increased for the skills that you use from that point on, but not the previous threat you've build before using it. So instead of ending up with 77 perceived Threat, it would be 50 + 10 + 10 * 1.1 = 71.
No, perceived threat is your instantaneous modifier for your total threat. Thats why if a Guard in threat stance swaps to block stance, he's liable to lose the aggro right then and there, because he's lost his ~28% threat multiplier.
No, perceived threat is your instantaneous modifier for your total threat. Thats why if a Guard in threat stance swaps to block stance, he's liable to lose the aggro right then and there, because he's lost his ~28% threat multiplier.
Wow, didn't know that. So when you lose the GW perceived threat bonus, you are actually losing threat on the mob?
Wow, didn't know that. So when you lose the GW perceived threat bonus, you are actually losing threat on the mob?
If you lose the bonus you have the potential to lose agro... Meaning the mob will switch targets to someone else.
If the threat table is such... And I'm assuming you have noble mark on the mob:
Captain 10k threat. no pt modifiers.
Hunter 12k threat. -10% perceived threat from noble mark makes perceived threat = 90% (.9)
Mob sees Hunter's PT is (12k *.9) Which is 10.8k.
Captain is still 10k, but uses gw to apply aggressive stance, which bumps him up to (10k * 1.1) 11k, and gets agro. This only lasts while aggressive stance is active, of course.
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Originally Posted by 00CloughRN
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and picked the best one I had.
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