Thema: I Wish I had waited...

Not really wanting to moan as I love my gameplay on LOTRO at the mo, but I wish I hadn't bothered ordering the ROR pre-order.
The horse is nice but it's only a 62%/200 steed! So I won't bother using it much
The armor is nice but purley cosmetic!
I'm lVL 66 so really don't need the 25%XP boost, I in fact want to slow my XP down, I'm already 3-6 levels too high for my quests!
The Map might be useful, but its one time use..
The crystal will be nice but I won't use it untill I get a higher level weapon!
The only good thing is a 6th bag, and Rohan Content but thats not till it's released, so in all unless your 75 & bored .i bother until later in the year, I so wish I'd waited now in case of better offers nearer release time..

Well I thought the price ws steap for what we got and no TP on top of it! But I do really enjoy lotro so I'm not to upset I guess. Just a heads up though, you do get the 6th bag right away

Thanks for the post. I was looking at it, but wasn't sure if there was any real value. Your post helped.

Meh. If I pre-order (and I'm still considering, since my funds are a little tight right now), it'll be the $40 dollar version. None of the fluff interests me at all.

Yes, I was taken aback a bit by the pricing of the pre-order and RoR editions. I'm still on the fence whether to go that way. Looking at the various editions:

Base: The steed and title don't do anything for me. The L20 cloaks are useless because my toons are all higher level than that, and I've never found a use for soldiers on the landscape (as currently implemented).

Heroic: Same as above, plus a Hauberk (cosmetic...whoop) and quest packs that I already own. The only thing really interesting here is the Outrider's Token, which would make it easier for me to get my L32-L35 toons up to the cap.

Legendary: Same as above, plus armor (cosmetic), "exclusive Rohan content" (which I think is just horse session play?), the 6th bag (yes!) and the Crystal for the extra legacy (nice bonus).

Of the three editions, the only thing that's really worth purchasing (if you already own Evendim, Moria, and Lothlorien) is the Legendary edition, but it's way overpriced. Just today they announced a Starter Pack available on Steam for $14.99 that includes Evendim, North Downs, Misty Mountains, 1000 TP, an XP bonus token (only good to L65 instead of L75), and a 68%/250 morale horse. That sounds like a deal to me. The only zone that I don't own now is Misty Mountains, so for $14.99 I can get that (normally 695 TP), plus the 68/250 horse, plus the XP token, plus enough TP to buy the 6th bag when it's available in the store (995 TP). Then I can just sit back and wait for the next "double bonus points" sale and then buy the expansion for 4995 TP (which with the bonus points would end up costing $33.80 instead of around $50). Or wait until they offer RoR for 50% off (probably late November or early December as a holiday special) and pick up the base edition for $20. You could conceivably spend $35 and get nearly everything (certainly everything that isn't cosmetic) from the $70 "Legendary Edition" pre-order.

The only things you'd be missing are the extra legacy slot (which isn't important to me but would be available later via the store) and the "exclusive content". I've got an L69 that just started Mirkwood, but haven't touched Enedwaith, Dunland, Isengard, or the Great River yet. At my current rate of play I'm sure that I've got PLENTY to hold me over until RoR goes on sale.

Am I crazy here?

Zitat von kmcferrin

Am I crazy here?

Crazy? No Way. You are a well informed thoughtful consumer, looking for the best deal you can get. You are the bane to all marketing types. Bravo!!

Zitat von kmcferrin

Base: The steed and title don't do anything for me. The L20 cloaks are useless because my toons are all higher level than that, and I've never found a use for soldiers on the landscape (as currently implemented)

The soldier appearance token works in normal skirmishes. You slot it like any other appearance trait at the Skirmish Captain.

Zitat von kmcferrin

Yes, I was taken aback a bit by the pricing of the pre-order and RoR editions. I'm still on the fence whether to go that way. Looking at the various editions:

Base: The steed and title don't do anything for me. The L20 cloaks are useless because my toons are all higher level than that, and I've never found a use for soldiers on the landscape (as currently implemented).

Heroic: Same as above, plus a Hauberk (cosmetic...whoop) and quest packs that I already own. The only thing really interesting here is the Outrider's Token, which would make it easier for me to get my L32-L35 toons up to the cap.

Legendary: Same as above, plus armor (cosmetic), "exclusive Rohan content" (which I think is just horse session play?), the 6th bag (yes!) and the Crystal for the extra legacy (nice bonus).

Of the three editions, the only thing that's really worth purchasing (if you already own Evendim, Moria, and Lothlorien) is the Legendary edition, but it's way overpriced. Just today they announced a Starter Pack available on Steam for $14.99 that includes Evendim, North Downs, Misty Mountains, 1000 TP, an XP bonus token (only good to L65 instead of L75), and a 68%/250 morale horse. That sounds like a deal to me. The only zone that I don't own now is Misty Mountains, so for $14.99 I can get that (normally 695 TP), plus the 68/250 horse, plus the XP token, plus enough TP to buy the 6th bag when it's available in the store (995 TP). Then I can just sit back and wait for the next "double bonus points" sale and then buy the expansion for 4995 TP (which with the bonus points would end up costing $33.80 instead of around $50). Or wait until they offer RoR for 50% off (probably late November or early December as a holiday special) and pick up the base edition for $20. You could conceivably spend $35 and get nearly everything (certainly everything that isn't cosmetic) from the $70 "Legendary Edition" pre-order.

The only things you'd be missing are the extra legacy slot (which isn't important to me but would be available later via the store) and the "exclusive content". I've got an L69 that just started Mirkwood, but haven't touched Enedwaith, Dunland, Isengard, or the Great River yet. At my current rate of play I'm sure that I've got PLENTY to hold me over until RoR goes on sale.

Am I crazy here?

Plus rep for you for being a well informed consumer like another person stated. I did the same as you but with RoI Legendary, I waited until it went on sale recently and just got it. In it I got the Fellowship Quest pack, Moria, Mirkwood, Lothlorien, all of Isengard, plus 1000 tp, plus the raid cluster and the three mounts and three cosmetics all for just $25. If we just inform ourselves and others about the deals we'll be much better off. Thanks for all that new info though! I'll be sure to pass it along to others in need of it.

I love how people complain about spending $70.. In terms of money these days, it's not REALLY a large sum is it? Everyone has their own opinion and fair enough you may not think it's worth the money but $70 is nothing.. I earn more than that in a week.

I will be pre-ordering in July when I get paid and personally, the Horse-session play was a deal sealer for me The cosmetics look awesome (I love outfits) and from what my kinnies have said, wearing that armor whilst doing the session play makes you look like kickass

And also the War-horses look.. REALLY beautiful ^^

-Tails-

Zitat von Tailborn

I love how people complain about spending $70.. In terms of money these days, it's not REALLY a large sum is it? Everyone has their own opinion and fair enough you may not think it's worth the money but $70 is nothing.. I earn more than that in a week.

I assume that you're trying to be funny here? I think that it's safe to say that many of us earn considerably more than $70/week, but that doesn't mean that we should drop a pile of cash every time something comes out that looks interesting.

Zitat von Tailborn

I love how people complain about spending $70.. In terms of money these days, it's not REALLY a large sum is it?

Only someone with more money than sense pays out without considering value for money.

Oh, BTW, many of us here will earn more than that a day, most of those a lot more a day, not a few will earn more than that an hour, it still doesn't mean that someone with common sense won't consider whether they're simply throwing money away on being ripped-off.

I think people need to understand what you're paying for now is 1st access. Certainly if you can wait a year you will get an excellent deal. If you want to ride around in unique armor and do deeds other people can't do today, pay up and hopefully enjoy it. Personally $70 is about $10 more than it should be, but I like being out there with everyone else on day 1 figuring out the instances and quests before everything becomes "look it up on wiki".

I am a lifer since beta and have always paid for the top choice for the previous expansion pre-orders but this announcement has really made me stop and take stock of what you get for $70 - and I am sorry Turbine but I have decided NOT to go for the expensive "bells and whistles" pack.

It's just not worth it IMHO.

I will probably get the standard expansion just before release date, then get the 6th inventory bag with TP, in the store, after release.

I've still got XP speed earners from other purchases that I have never used, nor do I see using in the future. You go up levels too fast as it is.

The price will NEVER go down - as it would mean Turbine refunding the early buyers, which they will never do.
The only thing they can do is sweeten the deal - A lot of TPs for example, 30 days VIP sub included, or other such stuff.

Have time to see what happens before Sept before breaking out the credit card.

If you're VIP, you pay what? 8pound a month for VIP, how much is that in a year? 2 years? If you don't like the game enough to pay out for the expansion the simply stop playing or stop whining.

Hell if you don't want the bloody fluff $40 is cheap as chips, there majority of players are either waiting or pre-ordering, More or less all of my kin have pre-ordered Legendary Edition, why? Because we're all die-hard LotRO fans and for us it's the MMO that keeps us interested, because we have faith in Turbine to deliver, THAT is value for money, because you're purchasing a product you believe in and love.

I'd pay $70 for any game I enjoyed, why? Not because I lack common sense but because I know I'm going to enjoy the end product, if you don't enjoy LotRO then move to GW2 when it comes out or SWTOR. Honestly, the people who ruin this game for others are those who whine about every single detail, if you don't think RoR's pricing is fair and reasonable, then don't purchase it.. Simple.

-Tails-

Zitat von Tailborn

I love how people complain about spending $70.. In terms of money these days, it's not REALLY a large sum is it? Everyone has their own opinion and fair enough you may not think it's worth the money but $70 is nothing.. I earn more than that in a week.

So you have more money that sense, and Turbine's marketing people own your sorry behind. Duly noted

I'm also a big fan of Lotro, and of Turbine in general.

I went subscriber way before I had even one character out of the starter zones, and jumped on the expansion before Moria was a glimmer in my minstrel's eye. The Legendary Edition, for the record, because the additional packs and the TP made it a good deal.

This Legendary Edition does not strike me as an equally good deal. The only additional quest pack I don't already have is the Evendim one, and I am not so flush with cash I'll buy and rebuy essentially the same content with new dollars. Clearly, I am not the target market. Fair enough.

I may decide to go with the Heroic Edition, but frankly right now my wallet is staying firmly closed until I see some compelling reason for ME to part with that much cash sight unseen, given the still buggy state reported of some of the ROI content.

And yes, Draigoch, I AM looking at you.

Zitat von Tailborn

...Honestly, the people who ruin this game for others are those who whine about every single detail, if you don't think RoR's pricing is fair and reasonable, then don't purchase it.. Simple.

-Tails-

Up until you first posted in this thread, that is what players were saying in a calm and considered manner.

You're comments on the real-world value of $40 to $70 are, at best, insensitive; for some people that is a lot of money and they will have to justify to themselves, or to others, that outlay.

You've made your opinion perfectly clear, now let others do the same.

Zitat von Bel-Astarte

This Legendary Edition does not strike me as an equally good deal. The only additional quest pack I don't already have is the Evendim one, and I am not so flush with cash I'll buy and rebuy essentially the same content with new dollars. Clearly, I am not the target market. Fair enough.

I may decide to go with the Heroic Edition, but frankly right now my wallet is staying firmly closed until I see some compelling reason for ME to part with that much cash sight unseen, given the still buggy state reported of some of the ROI content.

And yes, Draigoch, I AM looking at you.

There are no extra quest packs in the Legendary edition. The heroic edition is NOT included in the legendary edition this go around.

I decided to wait to purchase any of the RoR offerings after reading more about it.

But, I did spring for Steam LOTRO Starter Packs for both my accounts yesterday, for $30 dollars I got 68% steeds for all my characters and 1000 Turbine points on each account, plus North Downs, Evendim, and Misty Mountains.

That's enough to keep me busy for a long time.

Zitat von Crell_1

There are no extra quest packs in the Legendary edition. The heroic edition is NOT included in the legendary edition this go around.

Yes, thus the internal debate and the reason the $70 package is not under consideration in that internal debate between me and me.

Zitat von ShireDweller

I decided to wait to purchase any of the RoR offerings after reading more about it.

But, I did spring for Steam LOTRO Starter Packs for both my accounts yesterday, for $30 dollars I got 68% steeds for all my characters and 1000 Turbine points on each account, plus North Downs, Evendim, and Misty Mountains.

That's enough to keep me busy for a long time.

Quick question. If I don't have a steam account, and have not played through steam, I am assuming I could still purchase this and apply it to my accounts, is that correct?

Thanks

Zitat von Bel-Astarte

Yes, thus the internal debate and the reason the $70 package is not under consideration in that internal debate between me and me.

ahh dang

that was a major major selling point with the last upgrade/expansion and why I felt ok spending the extra ><

sigh

Well I'll have to seriously reconsider which edition I want now dangit. I'm pretty set on the basic for our other two accounts, but I wanted to splurge on my own ><

It would be nice if they stopped reinventing the wheel, but made it so expansions were always coordinated the same way, with basic content = base cost; basic content + quest pack + less costumes/swag = moderate cost; basic content + quest pack + more costume/swag + TP = expensive cost. (hint hint Turbine)

Zitat von Tyrthos

Quick question. If I don't have a steam account, and have not played through steam, I am assuming I could still purchase this and apply it to my accounts, is that correct?

Thanks

Yes, you can. There is a post by Celestrata in the "LOTRO on Steam" thread that tells you how to find the CD code to use to put on your Turbine account. There are other helpful posts that tell how to apply it also.

I'd link to them, but I don't know how to do that, so it's probably quicker for you to skim that thread to find them than to wait for me to figure it out.

I had to create a separate Steam account for each purchase, but that is free and quick so not a hassle to do.

Oh, and you also have to begin the download of the Steam LOTRO game to get this to work, but you can pause the download right away and don't have to finish it. Causal Stroll to Mordor has a post on this too.

So you made an impulse buy and are now regretting it?

what a shock...

Maybe next time you'll go, ohh look I have 3 MONTHS to decide whether this is a worthy purchase and do some research before handing over your cash.

Zitat von Korgain

So you made an impulse buy and are now regretting it?

what a shock...

Maybe next time you'll go, ohh look I have 3 MONTHS to decide whether this is a worthy purchase and do some research before handing over your cash.

Hmm well I wouldn't say it was impulse no, but yes it was 24 hours, and after reading it through and through I decided I was going to get it anyway and I love the game, so a 6th bag will be useful now and the horse and armor will be nice.
I can't see anywhere that the hose was only 62% 200 and as it's geared towards end gamers and the new War Steed's I didn't even think it would be anything less than a top line steed! So that is disappointing but hey it's still good and if my cash enables the LOTRO team to do more things before the release then happy days.
But I do think now having actually seen what I got for the money I wish I had waited, I wouldn't say I regret it as I'd buy it anyway. But it seems like your post was meant to annoy or take the piss , than be encouraging or thankful, so just putting you straight here, I've wasted enough money on games I played for no longer then a few days to a few weeks to know that I'm happy to pay that bit extra for a game I love and play daily!!
Although I stand by my statement, I certainly think unless your bored I wouldn't bother unless they offer a few better bits for the dosh, the steed for instance ! I think as a first investor it's pretty poor to give out a second rate horse...

The more I'm looking at it, the more inclined I am to wait for a while, and probably only gonna buy the base edition.

An extra bit of content would be nice, but 30 dollars more for that package is just not worth it to me. Maybe once I hear some excited players talking about their warhorse deed in the next few weeks, I'll change my mind. But it's a steep hill to climb.

The only pre-order bonus that I'm interested in is the 6th bag, but I'm NOT paying an extra $30 for it. If they'd included it in the basic package, I would have pre-ordered now, but unless something changes, I'm going just wait until its released.

I am no expert in the matter, but aren't there consumer laws that protects your rights as a buyer, even when its a matter of digital goods?

I know that even Microsoft licenses have a clause in their EULA that gives you the right as a customer, to return the software license to for instance Windows 7, and in turn revoke your access to the product while offering a full return on your money.

(There has even been courtcases dating back to the late 90's where people got refunds from pre-packaged Windows licenses installed in PC's)

Turbine however, has made sure that they lock your money down from the moment you click purchase with the following:

The purchase of The Lord of The Rings Online™: Riders of Rohan™ Legendary Edition, The Lord of The Rings Online™: Riders of Rohan™ Heroic Edition or The Lord of The Rings Online™: Riders of Rohan™ Base Edition, including state and local sales taxes, is non-refundable, subject to applicable laws.

I would liked für the Editions Turbine Points and Gametime

Based Edition:

Rohan Elite Guard Statted Cloak
A box of four level 20 statted cloaks that allows you to choose a power bonus for your hero type
6th Inventory Bag
An inventory bag that grants 15 additional storage slots
Soldier on Landscape Appearance
Upon reaching level 20, you can customize your Soldier on Landscape with a Rohirrim Appearance
The Steed of the Eastemnet
An exclusive Rohirrim Mount
Friend of the Mark
An exclusive in-game Rohirrim title
Turbine Points
1500 Turbine Points

Heroic Edetion:

The Steed of the Eastemnet
An exclusive Rohirrim Mount
Hauberk of the Eastemnet
An exclusive Rohirrim cosmetic chest piece
6th Inventory Bag
An inventory bag that grants 15 additional storage slots
Friend of the Mark
An exclusive in-game Rohirrim title
Evendim, Moria, and Lothlórien Quest Packs
Over 650 quests, 10 fellowship instances, and two raids
Rohan Elite Guard Statted Cloak
A box of four level 20 statted cloaks that allows you to choose a power bonus for your hero type
The Outrider’s Token
A 25% XP Boost for all characters on your account that will last up to level 75
Rohirrim Soldier on Landscape Appearance
Upon reaching level 20, you can customize your Soldier on Landscape with a Rohirrim Appearance
Turbine Points
2000 Turbine Points
Gametime
30 Days Gametimecode


Legendary Edition:



The Steed of the Eastemnet
An exclusive Rohirrim Mount available immediately with matching War-steed appearance available when Riders of Rohan launches
Armour of the Eastemnet
An exclusive full set of Rohirrim cosmetic armour
Friend of the Mark
An exclusive in-game Rohirrim title
6th Inventory Bag
An inventory bag that grants 15 additional storage slots
Crystal of Remembrance
Adds one additional legacy to your legendary weapon
Exclusive Rohan Content
Discover the lineage of the great War-steeds and earn a mounted combat deed that grants an exclusive skill for your War-steed
Rohan Elite Guard Statted Cloak
A box of four level 75 statted cloaks that allows you to choose a power bonus for your hero type
The Outrider’s Token
A 25% XP Boost for all characters on your account that will last up to level 75
Rohirrim Soldier on Landscape Appearance
Upon reaching level 20, you can customize your Soldier on Landscape with a Rohirrim Appearance
Turbine Points
2500 Turbine Points
Gametime
60 Days Gametimecode




Looks much Better, and more Peope buy the Expansion

Zitat von VincentAC

The only pre-order bonus that I'm interested in is the 6th bag, but I'm NOT paying an extra $30 for it. If they'd included it in the basic package, I would have pre-ordered now, but unless something changes, I'm going just wait until its released.

And here is something for you then:

Zitat von Celestrata

As stated in the Crystal of Remembrance thread, yes, we will be putting parts of the expansion pack into the LOTRO Store come September 5th, the same day as the expansion launch. One of those items will be the 6th Inventory Bag, and that purchase will be an account-wide bag. Every character on your account will get one after you buy it.

Zitat von lutemaster

I am no expert in the matter, but aren't there consumer laws that protects your rights as a buyer, even when its a matter of digital goods?

I know that even Microsoft licenses have a clause in their EULA that gives you the right as a customer, to return the software license to for instance Windows 7, and in turn revoke your access to the product while offering a full return on your money.

(There has even been courtcases dating back to the late 90's where people got refunds from pre-packaged Windows licenses installed in PC's)

Turbine however, has made sure that they lock your money down from the moment you click purchase with the following:

They can claim what they want there. I think there are people who are happy with what they got, there are people who probably should have read more... But at the end of the day, that's all trumped by a few pieces of notable misinformation I think. People posting and asking about this stuff here constantly can't really be attacked as simply "ignorant" of the purchase -- many are trying to get answers.

I personally wrote Turbine support about it and I also opened up a dispute with Digital River on Paypal. I don't think I should be charged for this when even Turbine is giving a contradicting message on its content -- that whole instance cluster FAQ thing might have been a mistake, but while I can be sympathetic about that my wallet isn't.

They can remove all of the stuff related to this from my account easily enough. If Digital River won't do it, then I'll escalate it to Paypal.

Zitat von lutemaster;

Turbine however, has made sure that they lock your money down from the moment you click purchase with the following:

Subject to applicable laws. Such as 'bait-and-switch'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bait-and-switch

Zitat von semjaza

They can remove all of the stuff related to this from my account easily enough.

Not unless they've made changes to their account backend since RoI.
This is going to be a pretty big miss for them.

Zitat von Crell_1

Subject to applicable laws. Such as 'bait-and-switch'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bait-and-switch

And even though its a matter of a pre-order, it seems like Turbine are having a hard time figuring out exactly what will be included in the expansion, such as Instance Cluster or not.

Having said that, the people who have not yet pre-ordered, should probably read up on exactly what they are paying for, before completing a purchase.

Zitat von lutemaster

And even though its a matter of a pre-order, it seems like Turbine are having a hard time figuring out exactly what will be included in the expansion, such as Instance Cluster or not.

Having said that, the people who have not yet pre-ordered, should probably read up on exactly what they are paying for, before completing a purchase.

This is not a pre-order (where you put some money down and more later). It is a pre-purchase and subject to entirely different laws (you spend all your money up front.)

Zitat von Crell_1

This is not a pre-order (where you put some money down and more later). It is a pre-purchase and subject to entirely different laws (you spend all your money up front.)

That's my biggest problem with this right now. I might just blow all of this off as a pre-order -- usually those charge when they ship. That'd be fine because I could easily cancel it or decide to wait it out.

For this they charged me immediately, yet there's conflicting information on their own official websites about what is actually in this expansion. And now I feel that I have to do something about it instead of just sitting around and assuming it'll work out. Many credit card companies only give you a certain window to even dispute a charge -- and before that you have to see what the heck Turbine or Digital River even want to do about it. It's not worth sitting on my butt and being optimistic anymore.

I really love this game. I've been happy with even the stuff people complain a lot about overall... but this just isn't cool.

Zitat von ipatino91

Plus rep for you for being a well informed consumer like another person stated. I did the same as you but with RoI Legendary, I waited until it went on sale recently and just got it. In it I got the Fellowship Quest pack, Moria, Mirkwood, Lothlorien, all of Isengard, plus 1000 tp, plus the raid cluster and the three mounts and three cosmetics all for just $25. If we just inform ourselves and others about the deals we'll be much better off. Thanks for all that new info though! I'll be sure to pass it along to others in need of it.

The Legendary went on sale? Link please. I think it is way over priced as well but sadly I have all the CE from the start and a lifer account and despite not playing in about a year I like to keep up. Sadly with over 10K in points I cant buy RR via the store which really sucks to say the least. In fact nothing really every shows up for me in the store except pots and I dont buy those.

I must I'm a little shocked I cant preoreder RR from the in game store.

This is also a digital download only. Turbine is making big bucks off this. For this money, most companies give a full new game, and usually it's sold in stores with CDs, manuals, and extra stuff. Which means those companies are only making half it's sale value or less.

Plus the cheapest $40 price really is $50, due to the extra storage being needed by most people (assuming the bag actually sells for 995TP... I'm betting it will be more TPs. Turbine keeps jacking the price up for each expansion.

And on top of all this, are the people who pay a monthly fee to play the game... Or the ton of money they make off the online store.

Zitat von Tailborn

I love how people complain about spending $70.. In terms of money these days, it's not REALLY a large sum is it? Everyone has their own opinion and fair enough you may not think it's worth the money but $70 is nothing.. I earn more than that in a week.

I will be pre-ordering in July when I get paid and personally, the Horse-session play was a deal sealer for me The cosmetics look awesome (I love outfits) and from what my kinnies have said, wearing that armor whilst doing the session play makes you look like kickass

And also the War-horses look.. REALLY beautiful ^^

-Tails-

I make that in a couple hours but that's not the point.

The big problem is the expansions come too quickly

The $70 is roughly $6 per month. That ups a VIP account to roughly $21 per month.

Now, if they were to release a paid expansion, say, every 18 months, it drops that cost down to $18 or so. Even better if they release one every 24 months. It'd give people More time to level up alts and actually get to use their stuff they had to grind 4 months to get. To appease the raid monkies, release a raid at the 1 year point.



It's all about not fleecing your customers.

Zitat von Cabbus

This is also a digital download only. Turbine is making big bucks off this. For this money, most companies give a full new game, and usually it's sold in stores with CDs, manuals, and extra stuff..

This is also a key truth here when people are comparing it, the huge cost of materials, packaging, shipping, etc. of boxed goods is avoided so it should be a LOT LESS than traditionally distributed expansions or full games, not hugely more.