Thread: The undying lands

I am very curious to know what happens when you go there. Do you become imortal or do you die but come to an elven heaven?

First and foremost, if you don't have a permission of the Valar, they will kill you at sight. Second, the Undying Lands don't give immortality, so one dies of old age if he's not an Elf or a Maia. Third, you get to the same 'heaven' as those who died in Middle-earth (Halls of Mandos).

If a mortal were to come to the Undying Lands then nothing would physically change them. However his whole perception of Time would change dramatically. Think of a more extreme version as to what happened to the Fellowship in Lorien:

`Well, I can remember three nights there for certain, and I seem to remember several more, but I would take my oath it was never a whole month. Anyone would think that time did not count in there!'

...Legolas stirred in his boat. `Nay, time does not tarry ever,' he said; `but change and growth is not in all things and places alike."

From The Silmarillion: Men murmuring on the Island of Númenor:

And they said among themselves: 'Why do the Lords of the West sit there in peace unending, while we must die and go we know not whither, leaving our home and all that we have made? And the Eldar die not, even those that rebelled against the Lords. And since we have mastered all seas, and no water is so wild or so wide that our ships cannot overcome it, why should we not go to Avallónë and greet there our friends?'
And some there were who said: 'Why should we not go even to Aman, and taste there, were it but for a day, the bliss of the Powers? Have we not become mighty among the people of Arda?'
The Eldar reported these words to the Valar, and Manwë was grieved, seeing a cloud gather on the noontide of Númenor. And he sent messengers to the Dúnedain, who spoke earnestly to the King, and to all who would listen, concerning the fate and fashion of the world.
'The Doom of the World,' they said, 'One alone can change who made it. And were you so to voyage that escaping all deceits and snares you came indeed to Aman, the Blessed Realm, little would it profit you. For it is not the land of Manwë that makes its people deathless, but the Deathless that dwell therein have hallowed the land; and there you would but wither and grow weary the sooner, as moths in a light too strong and steadfast.'
But the King said: 'And does not Eärendil, my forefather, live? Or is he not in the land of Aman?'
To which they answered: 'You know that he has a fate apart, and was adjudged to the Firstborn who die not; yet this also is his doom that he can never return again to mortal lands. Whereas you and your people are not of the Firstborn, but are mortal Men as Ilúvatar made you. Yet it seems that you desire now to have the good of both kindreds, to sail to Valinor when you will, and to return when you please to your homes. That cannot be. Nor can the Valar take away the gifts of Ilúvatar. The Eldar, you say, are unpunished, and even those who rebelled do not die. Yet that is to them neither reward nor punishment, but the fulfilment of their being. They cannot escape, and are bound to this world, never to leave it so long as it lasts, for its life is theirs. And you are punished for the rebellion of Men, you say, in which you had small part, and so it is that you die. But that was not at first appointed for a punishment. Thus you escape, and leave the world, and are not bound to it, in hope or in weariness. Which of us therefore should envy the others?"
And the Númenóreans answered: 'Why should we not envy the Valar, or even the least of the Deathless? For of us is required a blind trust, and a hope without assurance, knowing not what lies before us in a little while. And yet we also love the Earth and would not lose it.'
Then the Messengers said: 'Indeed the mind of Ilúvatar concerning you is not known to the Valar, and he has not revealed all things that are to come. But this we hold to be true, that your home is not here, neither in the Land of Aman nor anywhere within the Circles of the World. And the Doom of Men, that they should depart, was at first a gift of Ilúvatar. It became a grief to them only because coming under the shadow of Morgoth it seemed to them that they were surrounded by a great darkness, of which they were afraid; and some grew wilful and proud and would not yield, until life was reft from them. We who bear the ever-mounting burden of the years do not clearly understand this; but if that grief has returned to trouble you, as you say, then we fear that the Shadow arises once more and grows again in your hearts. Therefore, though you be the Dúnedain, fairest of Men, who escaped from the Shadow of old and fought valiantly against it, we say to you: Beware! The will of Eru may not be gainsaid; and the Valar bid you earnestly not to withhold the trust to which you are called, lest soon it become again a bond by which you are constrained. Hope rather that in the end even the least of your desires shall have fruit. The love of Arda was set in your hearts by Ilúvatar, and he does not plant to no purpose. Nonetheless, many ages of Men unborn may pass ere that purpose is made known; and to you it will be revealed and not to the Valar.'

Only the Elves go to the Halls of Mandos. After that, sooner or (usually) later all of them will the re-embodied and returned back to life, which makes them truly immortal - or they live as long as Arda does. The afterlife of humans, hobbits and dwarves is somewhat unknown, but they unlike the Elves, they're released from the bonds of the earth.

There are few exceptions, like:

- Míriel Serindë (Fëanor's mother): Wished to stay in Halls of Mandos, never to return in her body again after her difficult pregnancy. It consumed her spirit to deliver such powerful fëa in the world. (fëa = elven soul, hroa = elven body)
- Fëanor Curufinwë: It's stated that he won't be re-embodied, though it's unclear whether it's for a wish or punishment, or perhaps both of them.
- Finrod Felagund: Was soon returned in his body after being devoured by a werewolf, and his brave deed to protect Beren with his bare hands and teeth. Rejoined his bride Amarië in Aman and didn't return to Middle-Earth.
- Lúthien Tinuviel and Arwen Undómiel: Chose to be counted among Men because of their lovers (Beren and Aragorn)- thus being removed from Arda as their time came.

It is also implied that Tuor was granted immortality in Valinor:

Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men.

--The Silmarillion 2nd Edition

This makes it uncertain exactly what happens to a mortal in Valinor, it seems the Valar can bestow immortality, or something.

Bah! Immortality shmimmortality!

I heard the best part is you can eat all the PIE you want and nevah get fat! Cookies too!

Originally Posted by ruogon

I am very curious to know what happens when you go there. Do you become imortal or do you die but come to an elven heaven?

Elves who sail to the Undying Lands, or Aman as it is also known, from Middle-earth do not die, but live there perpetually, presumably in bliss. The souls of the Elves who die in Middle-earth come to rest in the Halls of Mandos, a sort of purgatory, where they contemplate their lives for some time depending how they lived their lives, but are eventually given a new body to live in Aman.

Originally Posted by Feladirthalion

First and foremost, if you don't have a permission of the Valar, they will kill you at sight.

In year 3319 of the Second Age, approximately 3140 years before present game time, Ar-Pharazôn, the last king of Númenor, having been deceived by the promptings of Sauron, led a rebellion against the Valar an attempt to claim the Undying Lands. His fleet was destroyed; Aman was removed from Arda, the world was changed from flat to round, and Númenor sunk under the waves. Ar-Pharazôn, and those Men who actually made it to the land in Aman, were buried in an avalanche.

Since the downfall of Númenor one cannot sail by normal means to the Undying Lands. Even prior to the changing of the world, one was hindered from sailing to the Undying Lands due to the Shadowy Seas and the Enchanted Islands that the Valar created after the Noldor rebellion.

The Elves are allowed to sail the ‘Straight Road’ to Aman because they were called by the Valar. The Noldor who rebelled, for instance Galadriel, were banned from returning. Galadriel’s ban was lifted, however, because of her rejection of the One Ring when Frodo offered it to her. She sails to Aman with Elrond, Gandalf, Bilbo, and Frodo near the end of the novel.

Originally Posted by Lindaelle

Only the Elves go to the Halls of Mandos.

That’s not quite accurate. The souls of Men are also housed in the Halls of Mandos after their lives have ended in Middle-earth, albeit separately from the souls of Elves who had perished. As stated above, Elves eventually receive a new body. The ultimate fate of Men, however, is unknown.

Originally Posted by Beleg-Of-Doriath

If a mortal were to come to the Undying Lands then nothing would physically change them. However his whole perception of Time would change dramatically. Think of a more extreme version as to what happened to the Fellowship in Lorien:

`Well, I can remember three nights there for certain, and I seem to remember several more, but I would take my oath it was never a whole month. Anyone would think that time did not count in there!'

...Legolas stirred in his boat. `Nay, time does not tarry ever,' he said; `but change and growth is not in all things and places alike."

Yes, but I heard Turbine was putting a new zone on the other side and that they would now let anyone pass through their lands to get there. *rolls eyes*

In all seriousness, this was what I remembered was that time did not operate as it did in the rest of middle earth. Almost seems dimensional or like a separate connected reality. My question was always, if they were to return (not that anyone really would want to) how much time would have passed in the rest of Middle Earth? Are days there like decades through the rest of the world?

Let's not forget Glorfindel either. He used to live in Gondolin, and when it was assaulted he managed to kill the same Balrog that killed Fëanor. He died with his enemy, but he was also re-embodied and sent back to Middle-Earth for his own quest.

Yep, the same Glorfindel you see standing outside the Last Homely House.

Originally Posted by LoyKashka

This makes it uncertain exactly what happens to a mortal in Valinor, it seems the Valar can bestow immortality, or something.

Tuor was the only man to ever receive that 'gift', presumably it came directly from Iluvatar.

Originally Posted by Valmarill

My question was always, if they were to return (not that anyone really would want to) how much time would have passed in the rest of Middle Earth? Are days there like decades through the rest of the world?

The same amount of time would pass, the days are the same in Aman as in Middle-earth since the creation of the Sun and Moon. However because nothing deteriorates or seems to show any signs of progress in the Undying Lands then a mortals perception of the place would mean time would seem to go exceedingly fast to him, like it did to Sam in Lorien. Hell even in real life our own perception of time differs. Some weeks can seem to drag by, others seem to go past really quickly. Similar type of thing. That's what Legolas meant by time being constant, but how that time is perceived can vary from place to place.

Originally Posted by Beleg-Of-Doriath

The same amount of time would pass, the days are the same in Aman as in Middle-earth since the creation of the Sun and Moon. However because nothing deteriorates or seems to show any signs of progress in the Undying Lands then a mortals perception of the place would mean time would seem to go exceedingly fast to him, like it did to Sam in Lorien. Hell even in real life our own perception of time differs. Some weeks can seem to drag by, others seem to go past really quickly. Similar type of thing.

They actually use different kind of reckoning in Aman:

1 year of the Valar = 9 common years
100 years of the Valar = one age of the Valar (900 common years)

For example, Elves woke up in Cuiviénen in the year of the Valar 1050, which means that they woke up 9450 common years after the Valar had begun their work in building Arda.

Originally Posted by oldbadgerbrock

That’s not quite accurate. The souls of Men are also housed in the Halls of Mandos after their lives have ended in Middle-earth, albeit separately from the souls of Elves who had perished. As stated above, Elves eventually receive a new body. The ultimate fate of Men, however, is unknown.

Actually, the former was correct. While the fate of men underwent several revisions while Tolkien was planning his work, including some points where they were in the Halls of Mandos, the final version is that souls of men leave the the Circles of the World entirely after thier death to go Illuvatar-knows-where, though they do stop briefly in the halls of Mandos on thier way, as mentioned in Beren and Luthien

Originally Posted by Lindaelle

They actually use different kind of reckoning in Aman:

1 year of the Valar = 9 common years
100 years of the Valar = one age of the Valar (900 common years)

For example, Elves woke up in Cuiviénen in the year of the Valar 1050, which means that they woke up 9450 common years after the Valar had begun their work in building Arda.

You're refering to the Valian Years and The Years of the Trees. They were different to the Years of the Sun (about ten times longer roughly). After the slaying of the Two Trees time was reckoned via the Sun and Moon for the whole of Arda. I don't recall the Undying Lands having a seperate Reckoning for Time after the Rising of the Sun and Moon, by that I mean a day in Middle-earth is still a day in Valinor, the same Sun and Moon are traversing over all of Arda. I'm not refering to calendars and all that (even Hobbits had their own version).

Originally Posted by LoyKashka

Actually, the former was correct. While the fate of men underwent several revisions while Tolkien was planning his work, including some points where they were in the Halls of Mandos, the final version is that souls of men leave the the Circles of the World entirely after thier death to go Illuvatar-knows-where, though they do stop briefly in the halls of Mandos on thier way, as mentioned in Beren and Luthien

No, the statement, "Only the Elves go to the Halls of Mandos," is not correct, even if Men, as you say, stop there only "briefly". With that statement you contradicted yourself.

The precise quotation from The Silmarillion is:

But Mandos had not power to withold the spirits of Men that were dead within the confines of the world, after their time of waiting; nor could he change the fates of the Children of Ilúvatar.

As I said, the Halls of Mandos, also known as 'The Halls of Awaiting', is a sort of purgatory. Many Tolkien scholars, including Tom Shippey, have made this same analogy. My statement, "The ultimate fate of Men, however, is unknown," was intended to convey that the souls of Men did not reside their perpetually.

Why did frodo and bilbo want to go to the undying lands if they would die faster of that?

Originally Posted by ruogon

Why did frodo and bilbo want to go to the undying lands if they would die faster of that?

I think mainly because of their personalities in the books, they were more like elves in their personality also they might have been granted Immortality just like elves that dwell in Valinor the last part is a theory as other heroes who live in Valinor are immortal.

Originally Posted by Al.

I think mainly because of their personalities in the books, they were more like elves in their personality also they might have been granted Immortality just like elves that dwell in Valinor the last part is a theory as other heroes who live in Valinor are immortal.

They don't gain immortality by living there, that is explicity stated.

And I don't think it was ever definitely stated that you age faster or die earlier being mortal in Aman, I think it was conjecture. At any rate, Bilbo was almost at the end of his life, so going to Valinor and meeting High Elves and etc. would've been a wonderful opportunity to him, and a decent enough way to end it all. For Frodo, the world didn't really mean anything anymore (on top of that he had all the hurts of his journey) and so he went to get some respite and healing from all of that.

The only one that could decide whether a Man becomes an Elf or Elf becomes a man is Eru Ilúvatar. And only Manwë can ask his advice or permission on that. Námo (Mandos) is another one who knows something about it.

Aman (Undying Lands) has nothing to do with it, save as the residence of the Valar, the messengers whom those decisions are mediated by.

Originally Posted by Lindaelle

The only one that could decide whether a Man becomes an Elf or Elf becomes a man is Eru Ilúvatar. And only Manwë can ask his advice or permission on that. Námo (Mandos) is another one who knows something about it.

Aman (Undying Lands) has nothing to do with it, save as the residence of the Valar, the messengers whom those decisions are mediated by.

Its stated in Tolkien by simply going to Aman, they need permission of the Valar so yes the land there is blessed in a way, Numenorians thought they would gain immortality because of this point:

Aman requires permission, those who were granted in the past to live there became immortal or were immortal.

So Bilbo, Frodo and Gimli would probably get a choice, I seriously doubt the Valar let them get to Aman and not have that choice.

Originally Posted by ruogon

Why did frodo and bilbo want to go to the undying lands if they would die faster of that?

Both suffered greatly as a result of their possession and use of the Ruling Ring. Going to the Undying Lands would heal them of that burden. Bilbo, who had reached his 131st birthday, had probably already lived longer than he would have had he not possessed the Ring.

Gimli does have recorded years of birth and death: 2879 - 3141 (Fourth Age 120) Bilbo, Frodo and Sam do not have death years recorded.

Originally Posted by Boraxxe

From The Silmarillion: Men murmuring on the Island of Númenor:

I've often wondered if perhaps one of those messengers wasn't named Olórin. Would be fitting and would explain some of his understanding of the happenings in Middle Earth and the workings of darkness.

Originally Posted by bambubambubambu

Bah! Immortality shmimmortality!

I heard the best part is you can eat all the PIE you want and nevah get fat! Cookies too!

And no hungry Hobbits looking at your pie.

Originally Posted by Al.

Its stated in Tolkien by simply going to Aman, they need permission of the Valar so yes the land there is blessed in a way, Numenorians thought they would gain immortality because of this point:

Aman requires permission, those who were granted in the past to live there became immortal or were immortal.

So Bilbo, Frodo and Gimli would probably get a choice, I seriously doubt the Valar let them get to Aman and not have that choice.

And in the Silmarillion it's explicitly stated, that it's not the land that makes you immortal. Men would still die in Aman, as would dwarves.

I think it was Elrond who said, that Bilbo, Frodo and Sam could only in Aman fully healed from the effects of the ring. Besides that, I don't think it would be such a bad thing to die in the paradise. Your last look at the world would be total beauty and perfection. Doesn't sound that bad to me at all. So I guess it wouldn't really matter for them, if the were immortal or not.

Originally Posted by Lindaelle

Gimli does have recorded years of birth and death: 2879 - 3141 (Fourth Age 120) Bilbo, Frodo and Sam do not have death years recorded.

I have read that Gimli journeyed to the undying lands with legolas afer the death of aragorn.