Thread: Why 10 more levels?

I have played Age of Conan quite a bit, which is one of the games that decide not to increase the level cap. And basically.. nothing changes, it just makes the game feel inconsistent. New content released has to feel more rewarding, and there has to be a progression-based system. So for example with the inclusion of a new expansion, you end up running quests for reputation, "currency points to buy skills" and whatsoever. It also increasingly creates a gap between those who hit the endgame and those who been on it for like 2 years.

I am not saying that a level increase system is the only way to keep the game fresh and give players a chance to catch up. But it is one way, and whatever other way people think up will be somewhat similar. To me the best thing about a level increase is that it reduces the gap in gear between the community.

I'd be disappointed if there weren't more levels. Once I hit the level cap, my motivation to play goes down.

Originally Posted by bastiat1

You gotta let your mind free dogg. Think outside the box a little. There are a lot of games that don't continuously raise the level cap.

Yes, and I don't like them as much because the improvements and power gains you experience in a sideways "advancement" game are substantially more limited. I like being able to solo fellowship content once I've outleveled it sufficiently - in fact, I wish LOTRO would structure its "to hit" curves more like the ones in TOR (where you can pretty much solo anything 10+ levels below you if you wish). Sure, the rewards usually suck for such content, but I'll get to see and do more of it -- and repeat it more reliably with later characters (when groups aren't as easy to come by).

We could get new and improved skills through real achievements like beating instances and raids, doing Challenge Modes, doing really long and involved class-developing quests.

Um... no thanks to those first two. I don't raid, and I'd really rather not be gimped by tying character skill improvements to raiding. Hated it when they did a bit of that in Moria, and I'd hate it more if they doubled down.

The possibilities are limitless, and infinitely more interesting than grinding 10 levels.

I'm all for seeing more ways to earn skills and equipment, particularly of the Comparable Incomparable variety. However, I don't feel like "levels" are grinds. They come with content, and if you just do the content and the story, the levels are simply a perk. A nice perk.

If you create a progression like that not only are you rewarded for real achievement but you are also forced to get better at playing your class to actually achieve things. The way it is now any tomato can can run through 10 levels of dumb and highly repetitive quests to achieve the illusion of progression but actually end up being a worse player in the end.

The game is supposed to be entertaining to most everyone who buys it, and in a mass market game that's going to mean many players who simply don't care about relative skill levels. They're playing for the fun, and character progression is a big part of that. The money a "tomato" uses to buy and play the game is every bit as green as that used by more skilled players, and this is an entertainment service - not the gaming olympics.

Game developers who create mass market games which tie progression to skill are morons. Human skill follows a power-law curve, where most people will lose most of the time when competing in a general pool (and a small percentage of players will win nearly all the time). It simply isn't a good match for a mass market game.

Khafar

Originally Posted by DrumMajorC

Ok, I concede, no level cap raise would be a bad idea, and that I may have twisted your words, but still, OD armor/jewelry for the most part was indeed an upgrade from BG armor, and thus would still represent advancement. But anyway, I'm really just upset that this cap is coming so quickly afterh RoI, since sitting at 65 for what felt like forever and having many options when it came to instances to run may have just spoiled us and made us used to having lots of content to do at level cap, this whole RoI period just felt so rushed, rush to do the raid, then sit around or go pvp since there is nothing else to do, and that after such short a time, we are going to be forced to start from scratch on another massive grind that is starting to make the korean mmo's look like an afternoon in the park.

But see, I don't consider leveling a grind. To me, gaining levels is a reward for completing content. Completing content while capped is a complete waste of the xp earned. After RoI launch, neither I nor several of my friends could believe how fast we were capping out new LIs - our habit is to cap even the junk ones, just to get the maximum benefit of deconstructing them. We were flying through them between level 65 and 75. And that is while trying to stretch the 10 levels out as far as we could, by doing every quest in each area even after they were grey to us.

Doing the same raid 20, 30, or more times, just to get the best raid armour, or to help everyone we know get it, is what I find to be a grind.

You seem to have misunderstood, I do not consider leveling a grind either, what I DO consider a particularly frustrating grind is the grind to prepare onself for endgame content, IE in isengard, getting good enough stuff to start doing orthanc T2 runs, and just as we finish doing those orthanc T2 challenges, they release more levels to essentially force us to re-grind in preparation for the next T2 challenges, THAT is what I dislike. If leveling were actually difficult and gave something unique and meaningful like raids do, then I would be more enthused, however, I do not get excited simply about the 7 in front of my character being changed changed to an 8 and having a bag full of #### quest gear.

And if you don't like raiding and need some number to change next to your name so you can feel *progression* and go on to kill some slightly tougher landscape mobs, without grinding to be truly prepared for a T2 raid, then we'll just have to agree to disagree and leave it at that, turbine has made their choice, and many of us as evident by this thread, and others like it are not happy with it and as such are expressing our opinions here, but regardless, we will have to live with it.

Originally Posted by DrumMajorC

what I DO consider a particularly frustrating grind is the grind to prepare onself for endgame content, IE in isengard, getting good enough stuff to start doing orthanc T2 runs, and just as we finish doing those orthanc T2 challenges, they release more levels to essentially force us to re-grind in preparation for the next T2 challenges, THAT is what I dislike.

MMO "endgame" is basically one massive grind after another. It's the only way they can hang onto people on the more "hardcore" end of the spectrum, and if the next expansion didn't include 1000+ hours worth of grinding to go with its 50 or 75 hours of actual content, most of that segment of the population would be gone long before the next expansion.

All of which is why I dislike "endgame", and play rather slowly, learning various classes, etc. My first character took me 7 months to get to level 50, and the fastest I've ever gone to the level cap was 4 months. Five years in, I've probably never spent more than 50 hours playing any level-capped character - ever. The grinds are too painful, the grouping requirements annoy me, and a lot of it's aimed at people who play far more than I ever will.

Khafar

Originally Posted by Khafar

All of which is why I dislike "endgame", and play rather slowly, learning various classes, etc. My first character took me 7 months to get to level 50, and the fastest I've ever gone to the level cap was 4 months. Five years in, I've probably never spent more than 50 hours playing any level-capped character - ever. The grinds are too painful, the grouping requirements annoy me, and a lot of it's aimed at people who play far more than I ever will.

Khafar

Same here. I spend way more time in game when there's actually some reward for playing that's more meaningful then the next set of gear I won't use after the next update.

Too bad 90% of character advancement & reward in current model & level range = gear. With or without level cap upgrade.

(leaving 9% for Legendary Horse just in case it's not "progression inside single zone"... oh, who am I kidding?)

Oh, right, 1%. Let's say... "Mobs that are already substantially weaker than you become even more pathetic thanks to level disparity buffs". Soloing old content: enabled. Oh, wait, no meanigful rewards for that.

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

Why not 5 levels at most? Why must there always be a level increase that renders our gear and LIs completely null and void?

I believe I can sum it up succinctly without even using a proper sentence:

$$$



Regardless, they are going to find out if the number of players who leave can be offset by the number of people who will defer some of the grind by spending cash - and of course, F2P and Premo players. Up the level cap and they aren't forced to implement any new mechanics or game systems to create "artificial" progression. They can rest on their conventions and keep development costs lower by simply changing the numbers in their existing formulas. It's tried and true and according to them, RoI was the best selling xpac ever (which I highly doubt).

I should say my views have no slight intended toward the art team who always impresses. But I can experience their creations without having to drop more coin to do the same exact thing I've already done once in the past year. I'm gonna be sitting on that proposition for some time...

I love leveling. I would hate to spend $$$ on an expansion and find out there are no new levels.

Yeah levellin can be quite fun IF the story line and the area backing it is well-designed and pleasant in general. On the other hand when levelling stops (when it stops, some people are soloers and for them i wont really stop) most players need content like instances-raid-pvp to keep their free-time busy enough . Personally i really dont care even a tiny bity how beautiful the new area is, how breathtaking the new story line is and how awesomely designed the whole place is. There are single player rpgs out there that really are lightyears ahead from lotro in this aspect and if i want something like this i spend some time there. I just hope that most people will get what they are waiting for, some new, well-designed and fresh group content -its the goal of an MMO after all to have exactly these things-

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

My significant other and I have played Lotro for years, faithfully leveling every time there was a new expansion. This time, another 10 levels, may just be too much. Leveling is not fun; re-grinding gear and LIs is not fun.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just want to point out that not everyone feels this way. I rather enjoy leveling along side an interesting story. It's just the whole Pavlovian dog thing. I like my treats.

I suspect a lot of long-time players feel similarly fatigued thinking about yet another level grind, barely a year after the last one.

Most of the new 75s in my Kin went from 1 - 75 in a matter of a few months, not a year. Leveling in LORTO is pretty quick.

Why not 5 levels at most? Why must there always be a level increase that renders our gear and LIs completely null and void?

Because at the rate you level in this game, most people would be done with that in a week. They have to improve on gear to give people something to work towards. Do you think we should have just all stayed at Moria armor levels before?

I am seriously considering just bowing out before September 5, because grind isn't fun. Can't we progress without another useless 10 levels?

That would be the correct response in your situation. If you don't like it, don't play. But I honestly think you're in the minority with your views (I have no evidence of this, just based on MMO experience over the years) and that's why Turbine is adding a higher level cap.

It's not enjoyable to have one's gear made instantly obsolete. I liked the five level increase that came with Mirkwood. I could phase out my my Watcher/DN set to the BG set. That's different than gear immediately becoming worthless. Nor does it make any sense from a lore perspective.

More important though, is that when the cap was 60, there were seven 6-mans, two 3-mans, two 12-man 1 boss raids and full blown 12-man raid. Plus the fellowship quests in the epic books and at level even CD/Uru were non-trivial. The pre-Moria stuff became obsolete when the cap was raised to 65. But this was immediatly replaced by a six-man, three 3-mans, a 12-man raid plus the epilogue quests, some other fellowship quests here and there in Mirkwood and at the time skirms were new. And that's not to mention the "In Their Absence" stuff that came out later.

IMHO,the current non-raid instances aren't as good as SG, etc. But that is subjective. Sticking solely to the objective, there is a complete paucity of content right now at the end game. This will never change if Turbine continues to be so slow in releasing new content while being so quick to raise the level cap.

Maybe if the ROI stuff had been out and working since last fall, an increase of 5 levels might make sense although I think it would be pushing it given the sparseness of the content. When Saruman was just fixed, Draigoch is stll broken and we've spent most of the year with the insufferable lag problem, raising the cap by 10 levels in nonsensical to me. At least some of us would like a breathing period where we can enjoy the endgame gear we've earned, work on alts, go to the Moors or take a break from the game. At some point, grind, grind, grind stops being a game and becomes a second job. Although at least at my first job they pay me, and not the other way around. There is a limit to anything and Turbine has reached it.

If the situation repeats itself when they raise the cap to 95 in around eighteen months, there's a portion of the player base that won't be sticking around to see it raised to 105.

Bottom line for me is whether the content is good enough.

I don't mind levelling through mediocre content once, in order to get to the end-game again. But I want really good content so I can enjoy levelling through it multiple times and I can have several characters at end game.

This was the case for me up to lvl65, but nowadays I have a single lvl75 and several lvl65 alts parked at Enedwaith which I just cant bear to take through that stuff again. I'd enjoy taking a brand new alt through the Shire, Bree, Lone Lands, North Downs, Angmar, Eregion, Evendim, Moria, etc. more than taking a lvl65 through Enedwaith/Dunland again. It's just not good enough to be re-playable.

Which is why I would have been much happier if Rohan had been a level 65 to 75 region, with fun to play content and quests irrespective of XP gained, giving alternative levelling paths (like we used to have) instead of the single lane we have nowadays, but done so that people already at 75 who like to level/progress were levelling something other than their character, i.e. their war-steed.

- The levellers/questers would have got somewhere to quest and something to level.
- The end-gamers would have not had the current end-game trivialised over night with no other end-game to show up for 3 months.
- The people with alts would get an alternative way to lvl75 instead of repeating a single path.
- A new player looking for end-game or a bit of pvp would not have a massive 85 levels ahead of him before getting what he is after (which puts some new players off).

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

My significant other and I have played Lotro for years, faithfully leveling every time there was a new expansion. This time, another 10 levels, may just be too much. Leveling is not fun; re-grinding gear and LIs is not fun.

I suspect a lot of long-time players feel similarly fatigued thinking about yet another level grind, barely a year after the last one.

Why not 5 levels at most? Why must there always be a level increase that renders our gear and LIs completely null and void?

I am seriously considering just bowing out before September 5, because grind isn't fun. Can't we progress without another useless 10 levels?

Haven't you figured out after 5 years now? That this is the model this game follows....

A tad too late to change it now. Deal with it.

You'll have to wait for some other inovated company to do differently.

Originally Posted by Saxzon

Haven't you figured out after 5 years now? That this is the model this game follows....

A tad too late to change it now. Deal with it.

You'll have to wait for some other inovated company to do differently.

Model? Basically, the first 4 years of this game, we gained a whopping 15 levels. Not exactly setting the pace for the 20 levels expected of us in a year now, is it? Don't tell me what the model is. The model had very little to do with leveling until the Store was in full swing.


Another reason they do it is so they don't have to use dev time to nerf content. They didn't have to revisit BG or OD (other than to fix things they broke) to allow those who couldn't hack it at level to gain the advantages they needed to finally beat it.

Originally Posted by Eoryn89

I have played Age of Conan quite a bit, which is one of the games that decide not to increase the level cap. And basically.. nothing changes, it just makes the game feel inconsistent. New content released has to feel more rewarding, and there has to be a progression-based system. So for example with the inclusion of a new expansion, you end up running quests for reputation, "currency points to buy skills" and whatsoever. It also increasingly creates a gap between those who hit the endgame and those who been on it for like 2 years.

I am not saying that a level increase system is the only way to keep the game fresh and give players a chance to catch up. But it is one way, and whatever other way people think up will be somewhat similar. To me the best thing about a level increase is that it reduces the gap in gear between the community.

This was one of my biggest gripes with Guild Wars. Once you hit level 20, that was it. You could get new skills and stuff but the leveling ended soooo fast. Going from level 1 to 85 might be alot for a new player but going from 75 to 85 isn't a big deal even on a few alts. I feel bad for you if you have 8 alts though.

Originally Posted by Tamiya

Did you not visit Enedwaith when it got released without any change to level cap?

Did you not visit Great River when it got released without any change to level cap?

Why do you think people did the quests in those new zones? Why do you think people played the instances in those new zones?

A level cap raise is necessary for neither i) new quest content nor ii) new character/gear progression.

It's the argument that a level cap raise is needed for "progress" and "advancement" that makes no sense.

I have one of each class and only one isnt at level 75.
I only visit enedwaith and great river to do the epic quests on all my alts. If I havent got all at level cap I will mix it up and level the remainder in the newer areas. I will visit most instances at least once but not if I dont have to.

I have multiple alts because i like to level up and dislike the idea of doing something which doesnt reward without a level rise. Why? because level equal better/more experienced/advanced character.

Sitting at the same old level just doesnt appeal to me if there is no chance of levelling up. Lots do as when an expansion goes live there is an influx of player activity which begins to drop once those players get to level cap. On GLF you can see levelers chatting "ding" everytime they level as it is a reward for their questing to see their character go up another level.

Games like Skyrim and UO have a different way to level through individual skill increases but in the end it is all the same. We are conditioned to like seeing those numbers go up.

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

Here's what we know...

1. There will be no new instance cluster or raid at RoR launch. In fact, no new group content AT ALL.

Not true. Read FAQ

If 10 more levels were NOT included in the expansion, I would probably leave the game now. Why? Because leveling and exploring is one of the most fun aspects of the game for me.

I don't mind 10 levels of questing and leveling. I enjoy questing and leveling almost as much as I enjoy raiding. What I do mind is the repeated LI grind that comes after that, when I will have to deconstruct my maxed 1st age LIs for a lv 85 3rd age items. Where is the progression here? From 1st age, I go down to 3rd age. And I will still need to max the 3rd age with the perfect legacies, scroll of delving, scrolls of empowerment, so I can play the game as it should be played. Only to deconstruct it when I get a 2nd age, which I will also need to max. And I deconstruct that when I get a 1st age. And just when I think I have the best thing in the game, level cap raises again and I have to deconstruct it. It's a devil's circle, there is no way out of it.

If the LIs were truly legendary and "leveled together with us", as we were promised when they were being introduced, there wouldn't have been any problem. I level from 75 to 85, my 1st age belt levels from 75 to 85. I just get lv 85 armour and jewels and I start doing the new raid. Oh, wait... there won't be a new raid...

Originally Posted by Brethwyn_EU

If 10 more levels were NOT included in the expansion, I would probably leave the game now. Why? Because leveling and exploring is one of the most fun aspects of the game for me.

So you're going to leave 2 weeks after expansion instead?