Thread: Familiar with software development? Trying to figure out what/why/how stuff happens.

I'm certain many LOTRO gamers have worked in a software development environment and have extensive experience with various forms of management models.

Here is somewhat of a description of the agile principle.

One of the later popular versions of Lean business models in software dev is Agile and I suspect that trouble integrating this with existing organizations plays a big part in what I see in many games lately.

When you work in that structure and the rest of the company can't adjust to it, it just turns to mush.

You get vague directions, some cash (hours paid to code), run a sprint for 2-3 weeks and must present Current Progress or a demo - at which point the work so far is re-evaluated and you can get fresh set of goals and a new Sprint of 2-3 weeks. Rinse/repeat. New demo - accept or polish? New project.

Why can't this thing work properly if the full structure fails to adjust to it?

1) the people who hand out the money/resources want detail control, defying the advantages of agile scrum teams - too short sprints means they cannot accept that the people doing the actual work are experts at what they do

2) the teams are made up like the old IBM RUP structure, with each department for themselves - meaning no one team will have the expertise needed

3) poor leadership - anyone in charge of a big Agile project must be near god-like in listening, delegating, patience - and always present, always showing themselves and never ever prioritizing stuff like meetings outside of the project: this rarely happens and the remedy is to have two or three in charge and this gets the added problems of miscommunication

4) as per #2, if there is one department working for themselves, separately, bad things starts to happen - let's assume that the design people work for themselves and try to assist every scrum team and not one of the scrum teams have given one thought to the design bit (since they don't have a designer present during sprints) - then you'll end up with a lot of features that are not in phase, like cloaks you can't dye and so on

Still, if the potential in agile management of projects is ignored, you get slow content updates, more wasted lines of code and all in all less output at a higher cost.

Why all this then? I want to know how deco items can't be dyed. I want to know why play test bug-reporting is largely ignored. I want to know a lot of these things.

I suspect the design people are left out of the scrum teams.
I suspect there is no playtester in the teams.
I suspect management to be several people who meet once a week maximum.
I suspect there is no feedback loop added to the agile model (half an hour a day dedicated exclusively to learning from mistakes).

Dear fellow LOTRO gamers, what are your experiences with software development processes?

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3) poor leadership - anyone in charge of a big Agile project must be near god-like in listening, delegating, patience - and always present, always showing themselves and never ever prioritizing stuff like meetings outside of the project: this rarely happens and the remedy is to have two or three in charge and this gets the added problems of miscommunication
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Addendum.

It is also vital for this individual to know, thoroughly, what the team are doing and how they do it, otherwise meetings get priority because they are "cover" from being talked down to by those nominally under you. Its a recognised issue that those guilty of go into denial over. Added to that they are often senior enough to ensure their own survival because the meetings are usually in camera from the team doing the work.

It is also important that when a developer says "No" that opinion is given weight.

Often seen in the NHS:-)

Woah, calm down there mr. block paragraphs. You want to know why this game works the way it does? Then look into business, not programming. The company sets up a time-frame and the resources for any particular project and the developers work within that system. As consumers we can voice complaints about how things are run and eventually move our resources if things do not change and we want to invest in an alternative method. In a way you've done that, but you've framed it in a "I looked up this stuff and am making some assumptions, what do you guys think?" method instead of a "Here is what I don't like, here's how I think it can be fixed" method, the latter method being much more useful both to any person with power to change things who reads this, as well as more constructive towards discussion.

Originally Posted by Mithithil

It is also vital for this individual to know, thoroughly, what the team are doing and how they do it, otherwise meetings get priority because they are "cover" from being talked down to by those nominally under you. Its a recognised issue that those guilty of go into denial over. Added to that they are often senior enough to ensure their own survival because the meetings are usually in camera from the team doing the work.

It is also important that when a developer says "No" that opinion is given weight.

Often seen in the NHS:-)

It's odd that communicating should be so hard =(

I heard some talk of agile/tps/lean thinking at a hospital, it seems they had some success (they started doing things like bringing the doctors to the patient instead of moving the sick person around). Similarily, they try to apply it to the swedish immigration offices and other governmental functions and...it's not too great. After all, they spent nearly all of the 90s restructuring to all-out centralized planning, hehe.

Originally Posted by John_Galt

"I looked up this stuff and am making some assumptions"

I worked in two different environments that had just started with the agile bit, here in Sweden (one multinational, one international).

(if I come across as cross, engRish is far from my first language and this will play a part)

One, a bank service, had built their section with scrum teams in mind from the start. That worked well.
The other, making services for mobile networks, was more a case of 'we went to a seminar about agile, do that now folks' and this did not work.

I specifically ask for input from someone with experience with this. I'm sorry if the link to wiki offended you, unsure what I should link to add some basic understanding of the process for a reader who is unfamiliar with the concept.

EDIT Oh you mean assumptions about how stuff works with this game and its updates? I very much hope they opted in on the Agile thing, and seeing the rate of updates I do think they did! Just that retracing and feedback that seems to be missing, if the teams don't get proper time to go back and correct mistakes. Perhaps it's not little teams, perhaps there's no physical proximity within the team - I don't know =) I just see the result, I'm speculating about the undelrying causes.

Currently I evaluate projects at a Toyota plant, and it's much fun. They're all about getting to the source of a problem and trying to integrate the full process into the work flow. Manufacturing just has more tangible bits to tweak, it's so much easier than software =))

Originally Posted by Macroscian

1 I suspect the design people are left out of the scrum teams.
2 I suspect there is no playtester in the teams.
3 I suspect management to be several people who meet once a week maximum.
4 I suspect there is no feedback loop added to the agile model (half an hour a day dedicated exclusively to learning from mistakes).

I can obviously speak only for our specific implemention of Agile and how we include multiple departments into the process, but to address your comments directly...

1 - incorrect.
2 - incorrect.
3- incorrect.
4 - incorrect.

All departments are included. Including Community. Teams meet daily,even if only briefly for updates and quick discussions of issues/problems/resolutions.

Well, this thread is far from being informative, it's just another rage thread.

"why can't this be done?" ... because someone decided so.

Of course deco items could be dyed ... if someone in charge decided that it should be possible.
the mechanism is just not here, that's all. Why should they be dyable? Because "some" people want it this way. But is that reason enough to change the game code?

Just because the devs don't spend time answering such stupid posts it does not mean they are ignoring bugs.
There is no bug-free software, there just isn't. Some bugs require a lot of time to track them down however and/or a lot of time to fix them. and then even more time to make sure the fix did not cause new bugs.

In most cases the devs succeed and then we don't even notice. But if they make a mistake, cause a new bug or can't track a bug down in time, people start yelling, crying and raging.

People say, LotRO is a sack of bugs. Well, it HAS it's bugs, no question, quite a few of them. But do you have any idea how many things in LotRO actually WORK?

Everything you do in the game, from selecting a char on the login screen, walking around ingame, selling items, buying and so on ... all these little bits and pieces work.

The four problems that you have described are not Agile problems. They are generic Software House problems. These problems will interfere with the delivery of working software on time regardless of the methodology.

The biggest issue I've seen. You are setting a Flag. Everybody runs toward that Flag. Based on feedback. The leaders move the Flag. You need to slowly reduce the distance the Flag is moved each time as you approach the release.

The easy trap to fall into is the falure to reduce the allowed Flag miovement distance. You end up with hillarious situation of someone running around carrying a Flag. The developers are chasing the Flag. The developers can't reach the Flag. It is adult version of the "Take the Bunny's Hat" and play "Pass the Hat" as the Bunny hops from person to person in the ring. Just like the victimes in "Pass the Hat", developers get reall annoyed with "Chase the Flag".

If someone sent out a survey to every player in this game and asked for 3 things they'd like to see changer,fixed, worked on, the list would number in the hundreds. Hundreds of separate 'pet projects' that some player feels very strongly about. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that dying Deco items would be at the bottom of that list as far as number of people who think that it's a number one priority.

It's has very little to do with anything that you posted. Everything in theory can be done. Not everything will be done. Sorry. Life is not perfect, and neither is this game.

It doesn't seem like you really wanted insight into the development process so much as you wanted to make insulting accusations and use the design process as your vehicle to do so. It screams "Look at me! I'm smart and have a lot of knowledge about Agile! You guys are dummies!"

You assume there has to be some sort of incompetence because you are dissatisfied with the game. No. It's you. You are what's going wrong in the process. We've entered and age of consumer entitlement, where every person who buys a product or uses a piece of software feels justified in posting attacks against the companies that actually do all the work. You just play a game. They do the work.

If you want something fixed or changed, try using the suggestion forums or a direct apeal to the design team through the appropriate channels. Try being complimentary. Try being nice. People like it when you are nice to them and might actually pass your suggestion along.

You are pitting yourself against a company that has the rights to the game. And you think insulting them will get you anywhere?

I know nothing about software design, but I know that the design process isn't your problem.

Originally Posted by Sapience

I can obviously speak only for our specific implemention of Agile and how we include multiple departments into the process, but to address your comments directly...

1 - incorrect.
2 - incorrect.
3- incorrect.
4 - incorrect.

All departments are included. Including Community. Teams meet daily,even if only briefly for updates and quick discussions of issues/problems/resolutions.

That's great to know. Perhaps a team is a bit too big and not working in the same room? Possibly sprints are too short?

I mean to say, basically, that if there is a playtester on a team and u7 is released with every character running around with a bouncing weapon on the back, then playtesting wasn't present or didn't do anything. Or they did the wrong things. Certainly nobody went into the actual game to test or the flaw would have been obvious. Or they did but noone paid them any attention.

I do see great efficiency but not the quality bit, sorry.

I'm not saying agile is easy =) Old friend works for Crytek and was able to build his teams from the start with agile in mind, still there's a lot of wish for micro-managing (from the money people) what a particular team does, even mid-sprint. It's not entirely easy to integrate the full structure. Letting go and accepting a team has the expertise seems to be the tough bit.

Originally Posted by Neumi

Well, this thread is far from being informative, it's just another rage thread.

"why can't this be done?" ... because someone decided so.

Of course deco items could be dyed ... if someone in charge decided that it should be possible.
the mechanism is just not here, that's all. Why should they be dyable? Because "some" people want it this way. But is that reason enough to change the game code?

Just because the devs don't spend time answering such stupid posts it does not mean they are ignoring bugs.
There is no bug-free software, there just isn't. Some bugs require a lot of time to track them down however and/or a lot of time to fix them. and then even more time to make sure the fix did not cause new bugs.

In most cases the devs succeed and then we don't even notice. But if they make a mistake, cause a new bug or can't track a bug down in time, people start yelling, crying and raging.

People say, LotRO is a sack of bugs. Well, it HAS it's bugs, no question, quite a few of them. But do you have any idea how many things in LotRO actually WORK?

Everything you do in the game, from selecting a char on the login screen, walking around ingame, selling items, buying and so on ... all these little bits and pieces work.

Ok =) I didn't intend it as rage, I'm curious how communication and structure works and why some things don't work.
Frankly, saying 'stuff that was implemented a year ago mostly works, and everything that was released 2-5 years back mostly does too' seems a bit too obvious for a discussion. This works! That too!
Thinking in terms of continuous improvement and good ol' six sigma, it's the bits that don't function that are interesting. There's no loud cheer for a thing that works but if you have customers and deliver bits that don't work...then those are the areas that will interest the customer.
Quality control bias, that's just how this brain is wired.

Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty

The four problems that you have described are not Agile problems. They are generic Software House problems. These problems will interfere with the delivery of working software on time regardless of the methodology.

The biggest issue I've seen. You are setting a Flag. Everybody runs toward that Flag. Based on feedback. The leaders move the Flag. You need to slowly reduce the distance the Flag is moved each time as you approach the release.

The easy trap to fall into is the falure to reduce the allowed Flag miovement distance. You end up with hillarious situation of someone running around carrying a Flag. The developers are chasing the Flag. The developers can't reach the Flag. It is adult version of the "Take the Bunny's Hat" and play "Pass the Hat" as the Bunny hops from person to person in the ring. Just like the victimes in "Pass the Hat", developers get reall annoyed with "Chase the Flag".

I'm not familiar with the game but the analogy is great =)
For agile to work, it seems it needs reasonable reworking of goals after each sprint. When it flows, it's the teams themselves that tweak the goals (if the overall goal is clear). They just need to be left alone a full sprint so some work gets done.

Originally Posted by hex2323

If someone sent out a survey to every player in this game and asked for 3 things they'd like to see changer,fixed, worked on, the list would number in the hundreds. Hundreds of separate 'pet projects' that some player feels very strongly about. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that dying Deco items would be at the bottom of that list as far as number of people who think that it's a number one priority.

It's has very little to do with anything that you posted. Everything in theory can be done. Not everything will be done. Sorry. Life is not perfect, and neither is this game.

It doesn't seem like you really wanted insight into the development process so much as you wanted to make insulting accusations and use the design process as your vehicle to do so. It screams "Look at me! I'm smart and have a lot of knowledge about Agile! You guys are dummies!"

You assume there has to be some sort of incompetence because you are dissatisfied with the game. No. It's you. You are what's going wrong in the process. We've entered and age of consumer entitlement, where every person who buys a product or uses a piece of software feels justified in posting attacks against the companies that actually do all the work. You just play a game. They do the work.

If you want something fixed or changed, try using the suggestion forums or a direct apeal to the design team through the appropriate channels. Try being complimentary. Try being nice. People like it when you are nice to them and might actually pass your suggestion along.

You are pitting yourself against a company that has the rights to the game. And you think insulting them will get you anywhere?

I know nothing about software design, but I know that the design process isn't your problem.

I'm just an ignorant Swede, no need to shout at me for being curious. So rude.

Past year I saw a lot of suggestions and a lot of customer feedback about a lot of issues. I see 'known issues' with much the same old stuff. Also a lot of fixes and there's been the additional process of making a french and a german version of the game and the store. Again, I can applaud the stuff that is good and works but as a customer, that's not what catches my eye.
The only reason I mention cloaks that can't be dyed is that there's been a fix for them in the past. Not making them dyable to begin with and instead accepting that there will be needed a fix or accepting customer complaint is, to me, a good image that the feedback doesn't work.

Customer complaint is a great sign, it means they care and don't want to turn to a different brand.

Originally Posted by hex2323

You assume there has to be some sort of incompetence because you are dissatisfied with the game. No. It's you. You are what's going wrong in the process. We've entered and age of consumer entitlement, where every person who buys a product or uses a piece of software feels justified in posting attacks against the companies that actually do all the work. You just play a game. They do the work.

Yeah, Do what Hex sais: lick the spit and people will treat you ... like you deserve it !

Consumer entitelment ... are you kidding me? They get money from us. They are not our friends. They are the people that stand between us and the game the talented designers they ones hired have produced for us.

Seriously Hex. Come back to reality. Its nice here.

Originally Posted by bastardoGrande

Yeah, Do what Hex sais: lick the spit and people will treat you ... like you deserve it !

Consumer entitelment ... are you kidding me? They get money from us. They are not our friends. They are the people that stand between us and the game the talented designers they ones hired have produced for us.

Seriously Hex. Come back to reality. Its nice here.

This coming from you? I'm shocked.

Yes, consumer entitlement. As a business, they are only obligated to give you what they state in the bill of sale and/or contract. My point exactly is they are NOT our friends and therefor not obligated to listen to us whine when they have satisfied the terms of the deal. If you can log into the game, no matter how buggy, their end is covered.

Considering it's free to do so, it is in their best interest to provide a game that people enjoy, not to sit around conspiring to ruin the game.

My advice to be nice is strictly practical in nature, because it has worked for me in the past. If you've had success being a grouch and making outlandish claims about their business model and implementation, feel free.

Oh and to Mr. Swede, perhaps I mistook your original post. Your English was so good I did not realize it was not your native language. In that case, let me rephrase what I said:

Your post sounds negative and accusatory to a native English speaker. It sounds like you are saying essentially that Turbine has terrible business practices and they are too lazy or stupid to even hold basic meetings. You might want to revise your post a bit.

Originally Posted by hex2323

My advice to be nice is strictly practical in nature, because it has worked for me in the past. If you've had success being a grouch and making outlandish claims about their business model and implementation, feel free.

Okay, but I have to ask you what kind of succes do you think I am seeking. Since you consider we shall use the same method we must have similar goals in your eyes. I apreciate that you are essentialy supporting my opinion(s). Even if one has to peal away all those protection layers you use to raise arround your ego when enganging in disscusion.

Hm? Does that fall under 'Trying to figure out what/why/how stuff happens' ?


What worries me is that your definition of 'nice' seems to equal 'not asking inteligent questions'.
You may choose that parth. But you have to respect those wich choose otherwise.

But this is not Off Topic and was not posted as such. I wonder =)

Please don't let one irritated person derail a thread, this is interesting to me.

From gameplay I have noticed that a lot more things work than don't work. Yeah, they run into some seemingly incurable problems like the latest raid, wrong ambient sounds, and stable mounts dismounting, but that's a VERY small percentage in relation to the things that do work.

No, I think their weak point is the marketing and public relations(They really need to improve this), not the actual game play mechanics.

The Bunny analogy was awesome, I love it!

Originally Posted by Macroscian

Why all this then? I want to know how deco items can't be dyed. I want to know why play test bug-reporting is largely ignored. I want to know a lot of these things.

You're trying to draw a causal relationship between Turbine's software development methodology and the fact that you're not getting the features or bugs in the game that you particularly want resolved, and are ignoring conspicuous factors: time, budget, prioritization.

The effectiveness of agile methodologies is not in magically defying these realities, but by managing the product owner's expectations; delimiting deliverables in achievable (realistic), iterative productions.

You are hypothesizing on the technical aspect of Turbine's software engineering absent product management context. I do not think it is a plausible model.

Originally Posted by Nymphonic

From gameplay I have noticed that a lot more things work than don't work. Yeah, they run into some seemingly incurable problems like the latest raid, wrong ambient sounds, and stable mounts dismounting, but that's a VERY small percentage in relation to the things that do work.

No, I think their weak point is the marketing and public relations(They really need to improve this), not the actual game play mechanics.

The Bunny analogy was awesome, I love it!

I see this too, and I think you are right about the PR thing.

Not so sure there are little things =) If we speak of game stuff and gamer reactions: I vaguely recall a lot of threads about Stunland, back when passives were suddenly removed and all the mobs started stunning, bleeding, slowing, throwing, poisoning the character and they never missed unless parried, regardless of character vs mob level. This feature is still in effect despite rather a lot of complaints back when and Finesse is still not available until around level 50-60 (I think it's Finesse that is supposed to counter this, unsure).

A major raid and selling point that can't be finished is not a small thing, nor the unstable rides or getting seasick watching weapon bounce. Same with a couple of classes that can't enhance their LIs with star-lit crystal thingies and an older raid that randomly resets. Good marketing is making sure the selling points are flawless on release.

Of course there is a solid core to the game but post-roi it seems to slip. Instances and raids and gear. I'd be happy to just play, as with Skyrim, but instead I seem to think more of mechanics that may or may not work than I have fun hewing orc.

I think currently there is one style for crafted boot output from supreme and up, at least for Medium. I see a distinct lack of focus on what made LOTRO fun over generic micropayment grinders: attention to detail, where a low-level quest reward can look just as fine as a high one and all items of one type don't look the same in a certain level range. And where stuff has a story.
Just one little thing among many that makes it feel washed out and diluted and stretched.

Sorry for getting side tracked. This is me being curious about why some stuff happens and others don't and the angle I went with is checking the processes because it's what I do. I don't think it's very fruitful picking on a certain feature or bug. Perhaps not, anyway, but it's easy to get caught up in all that.

Originally Posted by 8skyfaller

You're trying to draw a causal relationship between Turbine's software development methodology and the fact that you're not getting the features or bugs in the game that you particularly want resolved, and are ignoring conspicuous factors: time, budget, prioritization.

The effectiveness of agile methodologies is not in magically defying these realities, but by managing the product owner's expectations; delimiting deliverables in achievable (realistic), iterative productions.

You are hypothesizing on the technical aspect of Turbine's software engineering absent product management context. I do not think it is a plausible model.

Yeah! That's just the thing that makes it so strange =) Part of an even larger company now, there should be more freedom to do their stuff and not fight for pennies and hours. Perhaps I don't see the f2p revenue used for adding value to the core business? Only it's not core business any more.

Agile can't save anything if there is no cash to begin with, perhaps it can be said to be used when you really want less waste, better quality and a larger output in less time. That still doesn't explain the quality bits.

Yeah you may be right, it's the wrong way to find some sort of core to what I see as a problem.

***

Sorry for being so brief, I have fiendish working hours right now, on top of which I study*
*actual work and studies may or may not happen but at least I'm there physically

Originally Posted by 8skyfaller

You're trying to draw a causal relationship between Turbine's software development methodology and the fact that you're not getting the features or bugs in the game that you particularly want resolved, and are ignoring conspicuous factors: time, budget, prioritization.

The effectiveness of agile methodologies is not in magically defying these realities, but by managing the product owner's expectations; delimiting deliverables in achievable (realistic), iterative productions.

You are hypothesizing on the technical aspect of Turbine's software engineering absent product management context. I do not think it is a plausible model.

Actually, he's doing nothing of the kind, he's rightly complaining that the game has many serious and even game breaking bugs that have existed for months and years and will never get fixed; we know this because some of these bugs date back to MOM and SOM, earlier than that is harder to say because much of it has been re-vamped so the bugs just 'went away', replaced by newer ones.