Thread: Grave Wound Perceived Threat

This is aspect of Grave Wound that makes being a LtC captain downright hazardous in groups - as well as causing potential agro problems as a HoH captain.

To help turn it off (so that each can produce more DPS and Healing respectively), how about the CA=> GW Perceived Threat buff gets moved to either the 2 LoM traitline bonus or the Threatening trait?

Based on my experience, I don't see that perceived threat as much of an issue to red captain safety (and therefore raid safety). In fact I'd rather keep the threat.

I've had some problems with threat early on in some fights thanks to crits on SL and grave wound there. Those circumstances where my red-line inherent threat was a problem were very specific (random tanks in pub foundries; one night we tried single tanking Lightning T2C boss with a block stance guard, stacking the heavy hitters in the group with the warden who was playing with Assailment and its group threat drops. I foolishly assigned myself to the guard group and pulled, and so did with the burg also left out). But even in those specific circumstances, if I'd either A) used Fighting Withdrawal after a couple hits or B) practiced good discipline and hung back for a few seconds like the real DPSers, there would have been no problem.

Sometimes I actually want the extra threat. F&F T2 non challenge: we have a warden kite the grims. To facilitate that, we have the captains pull the grims from the giants to the kiting warden. Threatening Shout and Shadow's Lament are my main workhorses here, but hell I don't mind the +10% perceived threat buff from stacking the bleeds on a giant.

Anecdote: so Friday we downed T2 non challenge F&F. I worked to pull a little grim out to the kiting warden. Shadows Lament, Dev Blow, Threatening Shout while I walk him out to kiter. Problem was the warden on the giants was in my group so even though he didn't EoB (I don't think) the grim, about halfway out the grim pulled off of me and all the way back to the giant warden thanks to what I figure was probably a threat leech in the Shield-Fist line (which is just gonna be a part of a warden's rotation, no changin' that). Come to think of it, my threat buff may have just worn off right there. But anyway, I like having the threat on Grave Wound stacking with CA.

Inferring from your first sentence, I'd say we agree that (single target) threat is higher on a LtC capt than an HoH one. So if I don't think that threat is unduly hazardous on a LtC captain, I am therefore wholly unconcerned with that on an HoH captain. For those mobs we aren't hitting, the Mini/RK is liable to be higher on their threat list than we are (good thing or bad thing?), except in maybe some non raid circumstances a la Cappy kiting in Maze.

Odd, I haven't really had any issues pulling aggro by accident with Aggressive Stance. But then, I'm not running a Dagor/Pers set and machine-gunning Shadow's Lament, either, so maybe that's why. :P

Anyway, the current Aggressive Stance buff is definitely a relic of the Old Ways that should be looked at again. That buff is a cornerstone for threat generation when tanking, but it harms the DPSers who want to use Grave Wound's secondary bleed.

Honestly, Aggressive Stance needs to be somewhat more accessible to tanking Captains, as well. We can get our force taunt off by using the skill without the Cutting Attack bleed, but we need the bleed in place to get 10% perceived threat? The delay makes grabbing secure aggro at the start of a fight more difficult than it should be, plus it causes us to waste our force taunt when we need to refresh Aggressive Stance in the middle of a fight. This would be a less severe issue if not for the fact that we don't have any threat up legacies to speak of, so Aggressive Stance is really the only way we have to increase our threat generation.

As for what to do about it, I've suggested in a previous thread modifying Aggressive Stance based on either the active Mark or the active -Brother skill. That way, it could give a different buff that will be more relevant to the Captain's current role. An alternative would be moving the Aggressive Stance buff to a different skill -- Routing Cry, War-Cry, and Battle-Shout all seem like good candidates -- and unlocking it as the 3-trait bonus for Leader of Men. I sort of like Routing Cry, since it goes with the capstone.

I can get behind making that perceived threat buff more accessible, but I would be disappointed to see it go from something I just have to something I have to trait for.

Originally Posted by Omen_Kaizer

I can get behind making that perceived threat buff more accessible, but I would be disappointed to see it go from something I just have to something I have to trait for.

I really see it as something that is problematic going forward.

It acts as a HPS and DPS governor for LtC and HoH, and by getting it out of the mix for non-yellow builds (that is, HoH and LtC that are red/blue), it allows Turbine to raise the respect HPS and DPS values without needing to worry about the class becoming an agro magnet because a captain simply wants to keep up both bleeds.

Do you guys really experience problems with stealing aggro due to Aggressive Stance? Could this not be solved by using it in your second rotation on the target instead of straight off (and so allowing tank to secure aggro)?

I, personally, have never lost aggro to a Captain unless they used some form of forced aggro mechanic or they have LoM Noble's on my target.

Also, as a Captain, I avoid using GW too early in a fight. After that there is no chance for me to steal aggro of a half-decent tank if i'm LtC or HoH.

If you do steal aggro in LtC or HoH and you did not start the pull with CA->GW->TS (and why would you?) then its not your fault. IMHO.

I'm just trying to challenge the notion that this is something that has to be addressed at the Class level instead of the Play-Style level.

Originally Posted by Ravenstride

Do you guys really experience problems with stealing aggro due to Aggressive Stance? Could this not be solved by using it in your second rotation on the target instead of straight off (and so allowing tank to secure aggro)?

I, personally, have never lost aggro to a Captain unless they used some form of forced aggro mechanic or they have LoM Noble's on my target.

Also, as a Captain, I avoid using GW too early in a fight. After that there is no chance for me to steal aggro of a half-decent tank if i'm LtC or HoH.

If you do steal aggro in LtC or HoH and you did not start the pull with CA->GW->TS (and why would you?) then its not your fault. IMHO.

I'm just trying to challenge the notion that this is something that has to be addressed at the Class level instead of the Play-Style level.

The only competent tank I've stolen aggro from was a block stance guard (and the block stance over threat stance was a deliberate experiment). I forget exactly when it was, within the first minute, but after the 20s mark I think.I would say blasting Shadows Lament every chance I got was the main reason for it. All the real DPS besides 1 burg were going balls-out with their damage, but they had Assailment Conviction to make that seem harmless. Fighting Withdrawal fixed my problem in further attempts.

I do agree that at this current time, it's a play-style thing.

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

I really see it as something that is problematic going forward.

It acts as a HPS and DPS governor for LtC and HoH, and by getting it out of the mix for non-yellow builds (that is, HoH and LtC that are red/blue), it allows Turbine to raise the respect HPS and DPS values without needing to worry about the class becoming an agro magnet because a captain simply wants to keep up both bleeds.

I can tentatively agree with that. If our DPS were to be boosted, having the extra threat would become problematic. So any future changes to Grave Wound Perceived Threat and increased DPS should come at the same time, and not separately.

I pull aggro quite frequently in LTC, even before hunters and champs. It's mainly the rotation CA>GW>SL that pulls aggro. Our dps is comparatively poor enough as it is. A little help in not pulling aggro so we can maximize what dps we do have would be great.

If we are going to steal aggro let it be through dps not vestigial add-ons that are irrelevant to the way we are traited.

fighting withdrawl & get a better tank!
Other dps classes have to worry about pulling threat, now you will too

I agree it's inconvenient, but at the same time we can DPS tank a mob better than a champion as long as we're traited MoW.
I don't know how you could change that without moving 'aggressive stance' to a different skill (hey how about valiant strike!)

If you make it based on your mark... well when a mob dies (or green's out) you'd lose your threat bonus.

Originally Posted by DuneBug

If you make it based on your mark... well when a mob dies (or green's out) you'd lose your threat bonus.

The idea there is actually as follows: Aggressive Stance itself is activated by the same CA->GW combo as it is now and is stilla 30s buff as it is now. However, it gains a different effect based on which mark is active when you hit GW. If the target dies or you lose the active mark for another reason, the buff itself remains active with the same effect, giving you time to mark someone else. So the active mark just selects between three different Aggressive Stance buffs, it doesn't actually activate or maintain the buff on its own.

Plus, the Aggressive Stance buff routinely expires during combat anyway, because its duration is equal to the cooldown on unlegacied Grave Wound. And even with the maxed legacy, you only gain a 5-second window to reactivate it by hitting the CA->GW combo. (IMO, the legacy should be rescaled to max out at -10s instead, to match Cutting Attack's default cooldown.)