Thread: Ongoing Ettenmoors Discussion

Thanks for some spars at grams Karnara, and nice to see jure on your freep. We tried telling that stupid spider not to gank, he then logged his warg and continued to do so. At least he died while we watched on and laughed

Originally Posted by DinThePurple

Hey, look at me. Im trying to be funny

Originally Posted by Shalbor

nice to see jure on your freep. We tried telling that stupid spider not to gank, he then logged his warg and continued to do so. At least he died while we watched on and laughed

He was not much of a problem

Originally Posted by Jureon

He was not much of a problem

I noticed, lol

I often wonder why there is a bit of tension or hate towards freeps in OOC, a massive reason has to be the amount of **** freavers and spies give creeps all day constantly. Pathetic

Originally Posted by Squelcher

I would wager that less than ten people posted on the forums and cited botting as the reason they left Gilrain/the game. Most departures are due to imbalance and a broken game.

A broken game, yes, indeed. But when it is topped off with massive cheating left unchecked, it's too much. NO ONE ever said that cheating was the only reason. Also, you can wager all you want, but here are the facts: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...p-from-Turbine.

- Glohir testifies that he has seen too many veterans leave because of cheating.
- Sawbones quit because of cheating and says many of his friends left because of cheating.
- Markopolo says that the majority of creep side left because of botting. Markopolo says he has left because of cheating.
- Edelcar/Fellagund says that he is cancelling his subscription because of botting, and says he can't play freep because he is ashamed. He also says that botting forces a lot of people to quit.
- Juanra says he will cancel his subscription and says botting ruins the action.
- A long list of people voice appreciation that botting gets the attention it needs.
- Fleno states that botting is a disaster for gilrain, and he feels that many veterans have left because of botting.
- Wurgs /Wurglar already left because of botting, and will transfer his alts once transfers are up.
- Dorathin says botting is a big problem for him when he plays Gilrain pvp, and is forced to go roaming when botters are there.
- Crizmosh says that botting is a big problem, and that gilrain will lose a lot of players once transfers are up.
- Manegarm says that botting is a big problem for smaller group fights.
- Alandanth says that the rk is killing pvp on gilrain.
- Gladden offers their moral support and says that they solved the problem with cheaters with the method I have been proposing for quite some time now.
- Birdofherms lists botting as a big problem, and won't play Freep until the problem is solved.
- Lots of people from other servers feel sorry for our problem with cheating and acknowledges that we are in a bad spot.
- Romper says botting is a big problem.
- Edhun was going to start pvp again, but won't come back because of the botting. He says that botting is a big problem for Gilrain.
- Some say that Gilrain is far gone because of all the cheating and the situation here.
- Jureon lists botting as a big problem, and says that many quit because of it.
- Gras supports the fight against botting 100%
- REAPOR says that the cheaters are going to break the game. (quite a contradiction to more recent comments)
- Belegardo says that he was on a break since christmas due to bad changes, but came back recently only to leave again BECAUSE of botting and cheating in general. It was just too much for him.
- A long list of people support the fight against botting, but they were not mentioned unless they specificially said that botting was a big problem on gilrain or that botting caused people to leave.

There you go, Squelcher and Reapor. Facts for you. 8 people state that they quit or avoided a comeback BECAUSE of botting, including myself. A long list of players state that they know many people who left because of cheating, and many acknowledge botting as a big problem. Take care to remember that people who quit because of botting have quit the game and are not likely to read or post on these forums any more. We have 8 certified casualties because of botting, and a long list of "I know many people who quit because of botting".


Botting is just the tip of the iceberg, but it can be very decisive.

Originally Posted by Squelcher

Stoff, Wiley has wasted countless hours of his time leading creep raids against freeps on a regular basis. He has led in the good times and the bad and has been a player on Gilrain since SoA and he has not stopped playing in all the time I've been on Gilrain, his summer breaks aside. You have absolutely no right at all to dare to claim that he has not helped to fix Gilrain.

Excuse me, but where did I say he has not helped to fix Gilrain...? Don't go making up things as you go along, that's a pretty poor debate technique. Wiley has done more than most to help Gilrain and is a fine man.

Originally Posted by Squelcher

Where is your proof of this? Hundreds of people PVP on Gilrain.

If you actually played then you'd realise that most of the advertising is done via kins and tribes spreading information by word of mouth. They may link a forum thread, but that doesn't make the people who follow that link for information avid forum readers

Hundreds of people don't pvp regularly or semi-regularly on Gilrain. Also, word of mouth, as you say yourself. I'd bet my left arm that most pvp players on Gilrain have heard about this debate. You ask where's my proof of this, but you proved it yourself. If the topic is important enough, interesting enough or controversial enough, a forum thread is spread via chats. For most PvP'ers, this topic is either one of the things. Very few members from the cheating kin has posted. You would argue that they haven't read it, but I can assure you, they have ALL read parts of the debate and they ALL know about the debate concerning cheating.
It starts with a forum post, and then people spread the word. THAT's how most people read the forums (also indirectly via chats) if important things are posted. You know this, I know this, we all know this.

"If you actually played"... How on Earth is that relevant? I doubt the process of recruiting people to events has been revolutionised since I stopped playing 6 months ago... Also, one doesn't have to play a game to see problems with it. The problems are what keeps me out, so I evidently know a lot about how it is. This is just a technique you use to devaluate my arguments, a very poor debating technique and not much appreciated in debates.

Originally Posted by Reapor

Making it up to suit your argument, I clearly didn't say botting wasn't a reason, if you read my post I clearly stated that botting wasn't the only reason why people have left or moved servers.


Those that transfer to another server because of cheating on Gilrain are using the cheating as an exscuse, unless of course you believe there is no cheating on other servers.

Concerning the first paragraph, that's not true. However, you deleted your post in the thread where you said it. Probably because you regret. You said that botting wasn't a major factor for anything, and that it was not a factor and only used as an excuse for leaving Gilrain. You confirm this in the second quoted paragraph.





Lastly, I think some people take botting to lightly. Botting is a very destructive force and needs to be dealt with. If left unchecked, as it has been, people leave PvP, as has been proven. I don't see why it is so hard for some people, and many freeps, to support the fight against botting and make Gilrain a better place for everyone. Lots of people would return, the action would improve, people would be less annoyed and enjoy themselves more. Win win situation for everyone. But first, one has to acknowledge the problem, a very big problem.



Edit: the whole cheating kin can be blamed as one. A player recently left the kin. He gave them an ultimatum. Quit botting, or I leave. The kin decided to keep botting, and the player left. This means that the kin supports botting actively.

Btw, disagreeing with someone's opinions on a forum is not the same as disliking the person. Also, many people, including Squelcher, Reapor and Wiley, have done plenty to contribute to Gilrain PvP in positive ways.

Originally Posted by stoffi

Excuse me, but where did I say he has not helped to fix Gilrain...? Don't go making up things as you go along, that's a pretty poor debate technique. Wiley has done more than most to help Gilrain and is a fine man.

I'll show you:

Originally Posted by stoffi

Wiley wants me to shhhhhhhh, so that no focus is brought on this massive setback to Gilrain, so that people don't get the "wrong" image of Gilrain. This is the attitude of CEO in a company with a bad product who wants to shhhhh it down in order to sell more, instead of helping to fix the product.

You suggested that he tries to simply downplay the problems of Gilrain, rather than help to fix it. He spent more hours than any other creep on Gilrain organising small groups or raids to get stuff done and improve the action. Stating that he shushes the problems rather than helping to fix them is an outright lie.

I do not make things up when I debate.

Originally Posted by stoffi

- Sawbones quit because of cheating and says many of his friends left because of cheating.
- Juanra says he will cancel his subscription and says botting ruins the action.
- Manegarm says that botting is a big problem for smaller group fights.
- Alandanth says that the rk is killing pvp on gilrain.
- Gladden offers their moral support and says that they solved the problem with cheaters with the method I have been proposing for quite some time now.
- Birdofherms lists botting as a big problem, and won't play Freep until the problem is solved.
- Lots of people from other servers feel sorry for our problem with cheating and acknowledges that we are in a bad spot.
- Romper says botting is a big problem.
- Edhun was going to start pvp again, but won't come back because of the botting. He says that botting is a big problem for Gilrain.
- Some say that Gilrain is far gone because of all the cheating and the situation here.
- Jureon lists botting as a big problem, and says that many quit because of it.
- Gras supports the fight against botting 100%
- REAPOR says that the cheaters are going to break the game. (quite a contradiction to more recent comments)
- Belegardo says that he was on a break since christmas due to bad changes, but came back recently only to leave again BECAUSE of botting and cheating in general. It was just too much for him.
- A long list of people support the fight against botting, but they were not mentioned unless they specificially said that botting was a big problem on gilrain or that botting caused people to leave.

-Sawbones has not quit the game.
- Cancelling a subscription is not the same as quitting the game or leaving Gilrain. Thus cannot be used as evidence to suggest that people leave en masse because of botting.
- That is correct, but there isn't much small group action left due to the zerg-based mechanics that U11 encouraged.
- That's wrong. No one person can ruin Gilrain's action. People's responses to him does more damage than he does. His direct actions have a relatively small effect on the overall quality of the action. I know this because I play the game when he's playing.
- A handful of Gladden posters cannot be used as evidence to suggest that Gladden as a whole is offering support. No more than the voice of one minister of a government can be cited as a nation expressing a view.
- That is correct, it is a big problem. But there are bigger problems.
- Romper is correct, but once again that statement has nothing to do with the concept that botting causes heaps of people to leave.
- If you actually played the game you'd know that Edhun has been actively playing lately.
- Some say, but, some are wrong. The situation can be rectified.
- Jure's right that it's a big problem, but I still see no evidence that lots of people have quit for just that reason alone.
- Gras supports the fight against cheating? Well, no point in me even trying to debate anymore then. Once again it is not related to people leaving the game because of botting.
- I only briefly got to talk to Bele when he returned, and I did not ask what made him leave again, so I can't speak to that.
- Of course a long list of people support the fight against botting. Anyone who isn't benefitting from it, or doesn't have a screw loose would support the fight against botting.

Originally Posted by stoffi

Hundreds of people don't pvp regularly or semi-regularly on Gilrain.

If I were to list all the PVP'ers who come to the Moors and play on a regular basis, I would definitely go well beyond one hundred. If I were to do the same for people who post on the forums, I'd be lucky to get past fifty.

So, from the 20 questions Sapience posted:

No new PVMP update in the near future.
Balance is 'difficult' to do and will require close attention to freep class changes. In otherwords, balance ain't getting any better.
Multi-boxing is perfectly legal but clubbing is not. They're looking for ways to deal with it without banning innocent people who happen to have high renown/infamy gains.

Here's exactly what was said:

Q9: Will there be a significant effort to balance PvMP this year?
A9: We are going to need to pivot on the Freep class changes coming later this year. It will be a significant amount of work and it will not be easy. - HoarseDev

Q10: Will there be enhancements for PvMP such as mail, bank, more skills etc.?
A10: Most likely not in the near term. - HoarseDev

Q20: What is being done about Multi-boxing/Rank Farming?
A20: We’ve been having a very active discussion with the Players Council about this recently. One of the challenges here is breaking the issue into its component parts.

Multi-boxing in-and-of-itself is not inherently bad or against our TOS. The Launcher allows you to run multiple clients and the bug preventing this was recently fixed.

Rank Farming, which doesn’t require mutli-boxing by the way, is another matter entirely. We’ve run several investigations to figure out how best to address it and so far haven’t been happy with the results. False positives, which could lead to potentially banning Top Tier PvMP players because they accumulate more renown/infamy than most rank farmers over the same period of time, are a major concern.

It’s a much more complicated matter than simply checking a database and banning those who rapidly accumulate infamy and renown. It’s a complex issue and we continue to discuss and investigate reasonable and appropriate ways to address it. - Sapience