currently the problem with crafting groups is that it makes no sense, cook doesn't belong with jeweler, tailor has no use with prospector and schooler has nothing to do with ether weaponsmith or cook.
now i can ask for new groups or a correction of groups but that just takes to much time and it only makes the current users pissed, so here i suggest "free grouping"
with free grouping you can choose the crafting professions your self without being forced to be put up with something useless, this is especially useful for 1 character players.
there are some rules in this system but that is just for a small balance, but first i have to talk about profession grouping.
every profession belongs to one of the two groups, production profession and refining professions.
production profession are the ones that let you make the end result, so that includes:
-metal smith
-weapon smith (i know it's called armsman but since the group isn't there anymore, no use keeping the name reserved)
-schoolar
-jeweler
-cook
-tailor
-woodworker
refining professions are the one that make craft-able materials out of rough materials, this includes:
-farmer
-prospector
-forester
when you want to abandon a crafting profession you just need to remove one of 3, removing one doesn't reset anything so you can eventually have all of them on the highest level on one character.
when you choose a crafting profession you need to keep in mind a simple rule, you have to take at least one production profession and one refining profession, what you do with the third one is all on you.
that's all for now, if i missed a profession just say it and ill correct it.
Each crafting group has two connected crafts and one other craft that depends on another crafter for components (except for explorer) to encourage interaction.
A Tinkerer needs a farmer for your cook
An Armourer needs a forester for your tailor
A Historian needs a prospector for your Weaponsmith
An Armsman needs a forester for your woodworker....
The other thing this sort of idea founders on is...Crafting Guilds. So long as they are one to a character (and I don't see that changing), people will want seven characters maxed out in production crafts, with max Guild standing, and they'll pick the craft that has the support skill to go with the production skill.
I still miss Crafting 2.0 in AC2, wherein you could train ANY crafting skill you wanted. In any combination.
My main was the best Toolmaker on Thistledown. She was the one who could build construction tools to help craft the raw materials that could be turned in to NPCs to open vendor shops. She could also make armour or weaponry for any race, any class, so long as they were fairly low level. She outfitted a lot of newbies that way.
which is exactly what makes no sense, if they want us to depend on each other it simply means that any player who want to be self sufficient is not welcome in the game.
i rather see a crafting system that makes sense in every single way then a system that only makes crafting a drag, if anything the groups should be with what it needs.
don't get me wrong i really like the crafting system it self, it's not that much of a grind and the materials are plenty so farming for materials is barely needed.
it's just that choosing a crafting group is such a drag and i really don't like dependency, i wanted to make a survive for instance (hunter) so cook, woodwork and forester would've bin perfect.
now i am stuck with professions i have really no use for and i can't even make my own stuff without ether buying it from others or buying it from NPC's, it's simply a big design flaw.
Secondly, what game are you playing where scholar and cook are in the same vocation?
try guild wars 2, i could say the normal guild wars but that game doesn't really have a crafting system, more a "buy with materials" vendor.
If you want to be self-sufficient, don't play an MMO. The whole point of MMOs is cooperation and interaction with other players.
You know what game you might like? Skyrim. It has a decent crafting system, is purely solo and has graphics that far excede those of LOTRO. Don't try to make our MMO into a solo game.
which is exactly what makes no sense, if they want us to depend on each other it simply means that any player who want to be self sufficient is not welcome in the game.
That's not strictly true. Many players get around this by rolling a crafting alt or two. You can have a farmer alt supply produce to your cook. You can have a forester alt make leather for your armourer tailor.
With this type of approach, it makes the most sense for your main to be an explorer so that he can supply ore and wood as needed. It's therefore possible for you to have a Level 5 Weaponsmith get to Westfold Master and Master of the Guild. Your crit rate will be much lower since better crafting tools and scrolls are available at higher levels, but that doesn't make a difference when creating Guild recipes. Some higher-level recipes are available only with faction reputation, but that's not true with the Level 75 Guild recipes. I'm guessing that Turbine will continue that approach with Level 85 recipes in Rohan.
Rather than changing the system, you may want to rethink your approach.
which is exactly what makes no sense, if they want us to depend on each other it simply means that any player who want to be self sufficient is not welcome in the game.
i rather see a crafting system that makes sense in every single way then a system that only makes crafting a drag, if anything the groups should be with what it needs.
don't get me wrong i really like the crafting system it self, it's not that much of a grind and the materials are plenty so farming for materials is barely needed.
it's just that choosing a crafting group is such a drag and i really don't like dependency, i wanted to make a survive for instance (hunter) so cook, woodwork and forester would've bin perfect.
now i am stuck with professions i have really no use for and i can't even make my own stuff without ether buying it from others or buying it from NPC's, it's simply a big design flaw.
try guild wars 2, i could say the normal guild wars but that game doesn't really have a crafting system, more a "buy with materials" vendor.
I am self sufficient. I farm all my ores, Farm my Feilds, Cook all my food and make anything I need. With the 9 classes I use. So as you can see. You can be self sufficient. Only if you try. I can make anything on lotro. I am also Master of the Guild in all the crafting.
Was it hard? No it just took time. Did it cost anything? Not much. As long as you don't use the Auction House. The cost will be lower. If you buy your supplys at your House or kinship the price will be lower.
If you do not want Master of the guild. You can do all the craft on 5 toons.
Last edited by Celt_Ainvar; Jun 03 2012 at 07:40 PM.
Each crafting group has two connected crafts and one other craft that depends on another crafter for components (except for explorer) to encourage interaction.
A Tinkerer needs a farmer for your cook
An Armourer needs a forester for your tailor
A Historian needs a prospector for your Weaponsmith
An Armsman needs a forester for your woodworker....
And so on.
The wanted us to be dependent on each other.
Don't forget that a Armsman also needs a farmer for his traps and of course a jeweller for some of his weapons, he's dependent on 3 different professions.
so i need 5 toons just for 1 character......only a bigger reason to remove grouping.
Only if you want your crafting to be completely independent and self-supporting. If that isn't a constraint to you, then you don't need your own "support staff". On the other hand, if you want to have alts for other reasons (trying different classes, taking different paths through the content, etc.), then you can assign different crafting sets to them and get crafting independence as a byproduct of what you plan to do anyway.
PS. this is the third game with stuck up forum members who just never listen to me, also the third community that eventually agrees with me.
some it takes just a few months, others take 2 years but the agreement is there regardless. (eg. i told ppl on the champions online forums to free up freeform, now after me being banned forever and 2 years later ppl demand a freeform slot or they quit playing and paying)
If you have had trouble getting people to agree with you so many times, have you considered that it the problem may not lie with the other people?
so i need 5 toons just for 1 character......only a bigger reason to remove grouping.
This statement is not correct. You need seven characters because there are seven production crafts. A character can only belong to one production craft guild.
You are correct. There are many little groups that one thing or another changed with crafting. For almost every group with a "want this change", there is another group with "Back away. Or there is going to be trouble".
The core functionality of the crafting system. Turbine has made it pretty clear. It is not going to change, you going to have to live with it. Or find a different game that is more to your liking.
It made worse in that the crafting system is integrated in the Lotro Store as a revenue source. For example, doing all ten crafts or joining more than one crafting guild per character isn't going to fly. Turbine when they look at it sees - We spend dollars to reduce revenues because customers will not need to buy as many character level support items or more character slots from the Lotro Store. As such, the suggestion becomes a non-starter.
The only changes Turbine has made to the core of crafting are:
1) Addition of crafting guilds to deal with complaints of bad RNG luck failing multiple one shot recipe attempts in a row.
2) The removal of all the crafting promotion quests except for the superior facility access quest.
There have been a bunch of minor changes such as reduced inventory clutter and increased stack sizes.
Given as many times as Turbine has touched the crafting system in the past five years. I do not think there is much chance they will do anything like this. Turbine does not have a lot resources for major system rewrites. Systems like housing, PvMP, kinships get little to no support.
Most of the PvMP changes were done to monetize PvMP via the Lotro Store. I do not have a clue as what they could do to the crafting system via Lotro store items that would be accepted by the customer base. Plus sell well enough to be worth the implementation cost.
Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.
Well the idea of the whole crafting system is to either craft what you need by making your own character, Or to buy or interact with other players so the game keeps social, Don't play MMO's where theres other players if your going to complain about something petty like this, Turbine wouldn't change the crafting system, I think your suggestion if you think about it in a way is selfish, There are people who have worked hard with there crafting for days, weeks, months on end, One question, Are you trying to draw all the players away and make lotro bad, Use your initiative come on, we all have to do it with crafting, So why should you be any different, Here's some friendly advice. I am not being harsh but think about other players before you post things like this, And think to yourself before posting."Is turbine going to change this now with all the players in the game who have worked there butts off grinding for crafting materials and the crafting guild rep" Please why even think about even mentioning to change the crafting system?
are you so blind or just stubborn, if GW2 didn't have this system i would not use GW2 as example.
so i need 5 toons just for 1 character......only a bigger reason to remove grouping.
i think i am the only person here that opens his mind, it's now 2012 and choices wins players, not restrictions.
most games i know are freeing up their crafting system so you can choose it your self, next-gen games already make sure it's a free choice from day one
PS. this is the third game with stuck up forum members who just never listen to me, also the third community that eventually agrees with me.
some it takes just a few months, others take 2 years but the agreement is there regardless. (eg. i told ppl on the champions online forums to free up freeform, now after me being banned forever and 2 years later ppl demand a freeform slot or they quit playing and paying)
Oh yeah also with this, This is not open minded, this is lazy, Don't play online games if you want to be self sufficient with crafting, MMO's are for people who want to cooperate with other players, And MMO's have an AH also, Seriously think about what you put, MMO's are not for anti social players, and judging from what you put so far, I gather that you are, and expect people to reply with things like this if you are going to mention thing people who have worked so hard for, And i don't care what you think of me im just saying it how it is, And thats reality for you
I rolled a Hunter/Explorer to be my main gatherer of crafting materials, it was a bonus she could be a tailor and get 2 out of the 3 types of armor. Once she was fully matured, I began to roll new characters of classes I would have fun with and chose the craft to complement tailoring, thus my next alt was a Metalsmith, yet all the mats for this alt were supplied by my Hunter, thus my lowly level 5 alt sat at Dwarve's keep and used my shared vault to pass on the mats and got her to T-7 in mere days, and guild master in a few weeks after. Once this was done, I decided to make a Weaponsmith, and like my metalsmith she remained in the dwarven fortress and had all the materials needed vaulted to her. For awhile I though tit was funny to see GM T-7 level 5 alts going around. After that I decided I wanted to make my hunter's bows and the like and a wood worker was rolled, and like the others, my Huner did all the harvesting. 4 alts, 4 crafts thus far. Next I pusued was a jeweller, awesome game adds, so she staid at Esteldin and got her stuff though shared vault, in fact I made 2 jewellers since the T-7 guild recipes have a one week cooldown, and characters requires 2 rings, braclelets, and earrings, this way I could do the wholse set in a sitting; once more my hunter did the harvesting, I di dkeep my gems as I ored for my metal and weapon smiths and went from 1 to t-7 through polishing gems in no time. Followed was a Scholar, I wanted those pocket items, and potions, so that one became challenging for I had to kill folks for the mats, since I coul dnot open chests to ge tthe goodies for the scholar, but there was AH to help out too, but a level 75 decked-out hunter can mow down lowbies in no time, and fill her bags in no time. I tried farming, and found it utterly boring, so no cook for me... I will just buy what I need from AH.
So instead of worrying in developing lots of alts to simply supply materials, develop one good alt to serve the rest. Thus you are in a way as aplayer, fairly self sufficient, yet you are stuck with the 7 alt structure.
are you so blind or just stubborn, if GW2 didn't have this system i would not use GW2 as example
You said that scholar and cook have nothing to do with each other. They're not in the same vocation in LOTRO. So will you please drop this suggestion? It's terrible and will never be implamented.
If you have had trouble getting people to agree with you so many times, have you considered that it the problem may not lie with the other people?
after 7 years and ppl still continue to say this, even while i am right at the end.
don't believe me?
the amount of times i said something and ppl just ignored and shoved words against is uncountable, the amount of times i was right all along is even greater.
but you guy's just keep on saying non-sense, if you want to scare away ppl be my guess, it's not my problem when eventually turbine realize exactly that what many others have.
after 7 years and ppl still continue to say this, even while i am right at the end.
don't believe me?
the amount of times i said something and ppl just ignored and shoved words against is uncountable, the amount of times i was right all along is even greater.
but you guy's just keep on saying non-sense, if you want to scare away ppl be my guess, it's not my problem when eventually turbine realize exactly that what many others have.
Ok. Will you go away while you wait for us to realize your greatness?
Maybe you should go into some professional field where prognosticating is rewarded--you could make a lot of money and afford to take a couple basic grammar and punctuation classes.
Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...
I kind of like the idea of being able to pick your crafts initially but beyond that I agree with the concensus of the rest of the replies. For the most part it would make things just too easy (and yes there is such a thing). Most of us like at least a measure of challenge and those of us who have put the time in would really be disappointed to see a change on the scale of what you are proposing.
Personally, I am primarily a solo player who enjoys the pug endgame action. I I will admit I am a vp subscriber so I did not have to pay for the extra character slots but I have taken the time to put together alts (some for crafting reasons entirely) and am proud of the fact that I am entirely self sufficient. The only thing not available to me are some of the rep recipes but as I level up different toons this becomes less of a factor. This is where some of the strategy (and fun) comes in to play. I.e. once i level my hinter/tinker up to the cap I can advance his cooking skill and relegate my yeoman to a farming role. So I will not need all 7 alts to enjoy the benifit of rep recipes on lvl cap toons. The whole point is that there is some strategy, fun and pride in being "self-sufficient" with the current setup.
I used to want to be self-sufficient in crafting, years ago. I've come to realize though, that I have much more fun when I just focus on one occupation (scholar, in my case). Most of my other characters are just Explorers, so they can gather mats.
When I need something crafted - like a Reforged 2A weapon - someone in my kin is always happy to help. And I've come to really treasure these crafted items.
I like how they say "Crafted by so-and-so" and with whatever interesting name they chose to give it. Some names are in elvish, full of meaning from my lore-master Tolkien-fan friends. Some are just silly names, or funny ones. One item I have was made by a friend who died last year; I think of him when I use the item. I would much rather have an item hand-crafted by a friend, then one I made myself!
People should be able to simply pick any three skills. If this led to too many, for example, scholar-prospector-jewelers, well, then, people would notice and say "Hey, everyone and his uncle's dog is a scholar-prospector-jeweler. No one can make armor or weapons. I think I'll make a forester-tailor-woodworker."
In TOR you can choose freely your crafting skill, your gatherint skill and your "special missions" skill.
People keep complaining about having chosen the wrong combinations.
In Lotro there's just gathering and crafting. Most combinations get 2 craftnig skills and 1 for gathering except the Explorer, he has 2 skills for gathering.
Since scholars can both craft AND gather resources, they got the farmer in addition who can't gather any useful resources if he's not on a field. So they have 2 crafting skills and 1.5 resource gathering skills.
People should be able to simply pick any three skills. If this led to too many, for example, scholar-prospector-jewelers, well, then, people would notice and say "Hey, everyone and his uncle's dog is a scholar-prospector-jeweler. No one can make armor or weapons. I think I'll make a forester-tailor-woodworker."
This statement is not correct. You need seven characters because there are seven production crafts. A character can only belong to one production craft guild.
If you don't mind about having all guilds, you can have 4 chars and have top tier crafters in everything.
I do have 6 chars, so I've got a bit more freedom with this restriction. My main (champ) is an Guilded Weaponsmith Armsman, so can collect ore at all levels, and can make his own LIs easy, but probably would have been something different if I'd known what I was doing with regard to crafting earlier on!
I've used this combination on 4 of my alts, and it works pretty nice. Historian farms up the crops for the Tinker. Armourer/Armsman fires up the ingots needed by Historian/Armourer/Armsman. Woodsman sorts out the hides for the Armourer. Everyone finds mats all over the place, and makes sure they hit the right crafter.
I miss out a bit by not having 7 guilds, but not massively. Anything I really need that I can't make can be sourced from kinnies or the AH. I feel better being able to ask once in a while to kinnies for stuff, rather than every day, and I'm able to help out a bit more when people ask for stuff themselves.
You know sorudo mybe lotro is not for you. There are better crafting games that have all the crafting available to you. Let take Runescape. You can Craft every single thing with one toon. Everquest I think has all the crafts available to you. (Not sure on everquest).
But the two games lack the one thing lotro has. Better Grapics. Better game play. Better quests and raids.
Let get back to crafting. On RS I played the game when Classic RS was released late 1999s I played untel 2007. I still did not get Max Crafting. None of my combat skills are max combat. None of my skills became max out and yes I did try. (Max Crafts Mid 90s)
But with Lotro in a few weeks on one class can get max level 75 and max out crafting and a few more weeks get Guilded in one main craft vs RS. Combine all 7 crafts guilded on lotro vs RS. Lotro is easier on crafting. That crafting, Levels and guilds,
You know sorudo mybe lotro is not for you. There are better crafting games that have all the crafting available to you. Let take Runescape. You can Craft every single thing with one toon. Everquest I think has all the crafts available to you. (Not sure on everquest).
But the two games lack the one thing lotro has. Better Grapics. Better game play. Better quests and raids.
Let get back to crafting. On RS I played the game when Classic RS was released late 1999s I played untel 2007. I still did not get Max Crafting. None of my combat skills are max combat. None of my skills became max out and yes I did try. (Max Crafts Mid 90s)
But with Lotro in a few weeks on one class can get max level 75 and max out crafting and a few more weeks get Guilded in one main craft vs RS. Combine all 7 crafts guilded on lotro vs RS. Lotro is easier on crafting. That crafting, Levels and guilds,
If you love having to take an active role in crafting, EQ2 certainly has that.
And to Mr. How About No, nothing says "cogent counter-argument" like a graphic of a demotivational poster.
This statement is not correct. You need seven characters because there are seven production crafts. A character can only belong to one production craft guild.
You can still master every craft with only five characters, although you are correct in saying that you'll need seven to have all guilds mastered.
----
@the OP - Do you have a Twitter account that I can follow? I need more than just Noam Chomsky, Gleen Greenwald, and Cornel West to get my genius fix.
"Sam thinks it a queer place, but I think he likes it, too." - Frodo
"If you're in advertising or marketing, kill yourself." - Bill Hicks
IMO it would certainly be nice if we could pick any three professions we wanted, although I certainly understand there are reasons why we have the vocation system instead, and for the most part I'm okay with it.
There are really just two things about it that do annoy me somewhat:
1) there are three professions (Scholar, Jeweller, Metalsmith) that are only parts of ONE vocation each. So if you want one of these professions you had better be okay with the other two that are married to them
2) which sort of brings me to minor annoyance #2: I have always found it puzzling that the vocation fit to ostensibly benefit the most from Mathom Society rep gain - Historian, for the Superior Study access - cannot also produce the crafted MS rep tokens, which are BOA Cook items. Again, this is just a minor thing, and yes I know that there are other Superior Studies that aren't rep-gated. I just always thought this was sort of weird.
None of this frustrates me to the point where I want to quit the game or anything. They're just things that puzzle me from time to time.
I have noticed an interesting interaction within the 7 vocations. Each one can gather and produce one main profession then the off profession is someone helpful.
For Example: The Historian is the most complex. The farming is done to make ingredients (critical drops only) for dyes which is cool. (Wish I had known that at first) Teh scholar really doesn't need things from anyone else and is the most independent but if they want to make weapons they can make the journals for single use recipe crits (which is nullified by the guilds). Scholars can make thinks for almost every class so they can then get the materials they need for critting their weapons.
Example2: Armosmith is interesting too because the you can prospect for the metalsmithing but not make hides for the tailoring. However the metal smith does need some leather items for some recipes and tailors need some metal things. Metalsmiths make the tools so everyone needs those if they craft.
No matter what vocation you pick (even if you could pick all your own categories) you would still need to trade for things. Having that built in makes it so other are willing to trade. If you don't have an metalsmith it is really nice to have someone willing to trade or sell you some new heavy armor.
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A change in craft groups
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