Thread: Freeps come forth as I am in need of your opinions

Originally Posted by aklouie

So if you don't have a defiler that has gone to the turbine store and bought flies... any other creep group is pretty much hosed.

because we MUST customize a creep group 100% of the time to have this ONE skill to win obviously

I am loving this argument.

Pay attention to semantics.

The argument of Kiddyfence compares a well built/played creep group versus a well built freep group. These outliers seldom engage each other seeing as the typical players of each side are the same people (ANV/Stainless/Vanguard). Note that "well played" is a variable. This variable is often miscalculated by players; delusion of one's own abilities. The effect makes it difficult to supply evidence to support the theory craft.

Ask yourself why the focus on rank 14 flies? When presenting an argument, if one variable has the potential to influence combat greatly, why enumerate in detail all the other variables at play? If the comprehension indicated on these forums is any indication, simplicity is vital. More importantly, the argument presented does not indicate that a creep group of said composition is guaranteed victory, rather provided a competitive position, where they still may/may not be at a disadvantage.

You have also made reference to the point that the foundation of the argument is based on players purchasing a rank 14 trait. This is very true. In response kiddyfence has supplemented his argument with the point that they are not necessary. This point is conditional on the abilities/group composition of the freeps (if lm present that cures the disease, then no; if creeps do not stack disease properly, then no). Therefore, it is probable that a defiler will need to purchase the rank 14 trait to provide the benefits of power draining to the group. Is this difficult? We are discussing a well played/built creep group. This means that the defiler class is a main and experienced/skilled player. We are not discussing your average defiler. Now there are two ways to play the defiler, either VIP or purchasing the class. If VIP, the player has been accumulating 500 tp a month. The player is able to allocate their points to purchase the skill, this is the same for other skills as well. If the player purchased the class, given the behavior to spend money for the class, they will in all probability be willing to allocate money to improve their character as well. Remember, these are skilled players being discussed that want to improve their performance. Thus it is not difficult to get a main defiler to purchase a rank 14 trait.

Common sense is bad for PvP.

Ironic invocation of common sense. One would consider when using the anecdotal evidence of 12 creeps unable to kill through the healing of one rk to demonstrate the healing imbalance that "common sense" would be used. Evidently this was not the case. Common sense tells you that if the anecdote is true, then the creeps present greatly underperformed; not because of their class capabilities, rather their own incompetence.

Originally Posted by username4114

Pay attention to semantics.

The argument of Kiddyfence compares a well built/played creep group versus a well built freep group. These outliers seldom engage each other seeing as the typical players of each side are the same people (ANV/Stainless/Vanguard). Note that "well played" is a variable. This variable is often miscalculated by players; delusion of one's own abilities. The effect makes it difficult to supply evidence to support the theory craft.

Ask yourself why the focus on rank 14 flies? When presenting an argument, if one variable has the potential to influence combat greatly, why enumerate in detail all the other variables at play? If the comprehension indicated on these forums is any indication, simplicity is vital. More importantly, the argument presented does not indicate that a creep group of said composition is guaranteed victory, rather provided a competitive position, where they still may/may not be at a disadvantage.

You have also made reference to the point that the foundation of the argument is based on players purchasing a rank 14 trait. This is very true. In response kiddyfence has supplemented his argument with the point that they are not necessary. This point is conditional on the abilities/group composition of the freeps (if lm present that cures the disease, then no; if creeps do not stack disease properly, then no). Therefore, it is probable that a defiler will need to purchase the rank 14 trait to provide the benefits of power draining to the group. Is this difficult? We are discussing a well played/built creep group. This means that the defiler class is a main and experienced/skilled player. We are not discussing your average defiler. Now there are two ways to play the defiler, either VIP or purchasing the class. If VIP, the player has been accumulating 500 tp a month. The player is able to allocate their points to purchase the skill, this is the same for other skills as well. If the player purchased the class, given the behavior to spend money for the class, they will in all probability be willing to allocate money to improve their character as well. Remember, these are skilled players being discussed that want to improve their performance. Thus it is not difficult to get a main defiler to purchase a rank 14 trait.



Ironic invocation of common sense. One would consider when using the anecdotal evidence of 12 creeps unable to kill through the healing of one rk to demonstrate the healing imbalance that "common sense" would be used. Evidently this was not the case. Common sense tells you that if the anecdote is true, then the creeps present greatly underperformed; not because of their class capabilities, rather their own incompetence.

^ am guessing in law school

Originally Posted by username4114

Ironic invocation of common sense. One would consider when using the anecdotal evidence of 12 creeps unable to kill through the healing of one rk to demonstrate the healing imbalance that "common sense" would be used. Evidently this was not the case. Common sense tells you that if the anecdote is true, then the creeps present greatly underperformed; not because of their class capabilities, rather their own incompetence.

Hardly anecdotal, It might not be based on rigorous scientific method but it is still a 1st hand account of the status quo from an experienced RK.

Originally Posted by distillered

I heal on Elendilmir quite often and pre-update 6 I could tank 3-5 creeps easily without trying. This time I can tank twice those numbers, literally, with that mending verse on the run. I just put up the Armour of Frost to slow people hitting me while I kite for 10s and it was no problem whatsoever keeping myself up

Originally Posted by ksjock

Hardly anecdotal, It might not be based on rigorous scientific method but it is still a 1st hand account of the status quo from an experienced RK.

You are aware what anecdotal evidence is? Your post does you a great injustice.

"Hardly anecdotal,"---> Refutes the account is anecdotal

"It might not be based on rigorous scientific method but it is still a 1st hand account of the status quo from an experienced RK."---> Defines the account as an anecdote.

QED: It's not an anecdote, but I define it as an anecdote.

Nonetheless, the anecdote supplied is prior to update 6 (unless I am misreading, which is very possible). As unfortunate as previous updates have been, if variables have changed, the evidence supplied may not be relevant to current game play. Therefore when discussing current game play, the anecdote has little relevance. If I have misunderstood the time stamp of the anecdote, then it has relevancy. However, relevancy does not provide legitimacy to the evidence stated. Remember that anecdotal evidence is fallible to the recollection and perception of the individual. The rk in question may have misrepresented the events of the case or the case may have been entirely true. If the anecdote is true, this does not supply reason to the argument of healing vs damage imbalance; meaning there is not a direct causality. Others have provided the simple reasoning (i.e. common sense) that indicates the under performance of creeps that would be necessary for such anecdotal evidence to occur. This reasoning is limited towards the comparison of damage output of 12 creeps versus healing for simplicity. There are other variables that influence game play that further support the case of under performance.

Edit: In anticipation of the traditional response: note semantics. Nowhere do I state that mathematically there is no difference in the damage/healing outputs of the respective sides. Merely the invalidation in the form of reasoning supplied.

Please restate your post in one of the following acceptable formats:

1. "haters gonna hate"

2. "u mad bro?"

3. animated gif or "meme" thingie.

Thank you.

Originally Posted by deathboy2000

^ am guessing in law school

Looks more like mathematics or computer sciences to me.

Originally Posted by Sniz

Please restate your post in one of the following acceptable formats:

1. "haters gonna hate"

2. "u mad bro?"

3. animated gif or "meme" thingie.

Thank you.

Format #2 is pure win... the rest are just awwight..

Originally Posted by Sniz

Please restate your post in one of the following acceptable formats:

1. "haters gonna hate"

2. "u mad bro?"

3. animated gif or "meme" thingie.

Thank you.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

I think username4114 is going for his PhD is lotro pvp.

Originally Posted by ksjock

Hardly anecdotal, It might not be based on rigorous scientific method but it is still a 1st hand account of the status quo from an experienced RK.

The problem is you base your ideas of balance off of a well played freep vs a badly played creep. You must find a well played played creep if you want to have a more accurate idea of balance.

Nonetheless, the anecdote supplied is prior to update 6 (unless I am misreading, which is very possible)

From Release notes of Update 6 .

New Set Bonuses

2 Equipped:
Rune of Restoration useable at all Attunements and heals 20% more
3 Equipped:
+2 Mending Verse Pulse Count
-10% Threat generation
4 Equipped:
+3% healing and frost damage for each Benedictions of Peace trait equipped
Calming Verse allows Mending Verse usable while moving with no induction.
Their Weapons Will Not Harm Us now protects against all 4 debuff types.

From a post one of the above posters wrote which I knew I've read from somewhere.

The defilers I've grouped with have regularly survived for a considerable length of time with 5-6 freep dps on them. Of course, they only managed this due to poor play on the part of the freeps, but creeps often play just as poorly.

This I'll agree with. You have grouped with defilers who have managed to stay alive due to the poor play of freeps. I'm not even going to bother questioning anything you say about defilers further.

People come here claiming incompetence being the main reason should sometimes probably run pick up groups/raids or communicate using the above freep/creep TS/Vent servers maybe you could direct someone in the right direction. Either way what you see in the moors is what you get. You can choose to play with it or you can choose not to. All I know is I'm having a blast the way I play and with who I play. The rest is moot.

Originally Posted by exx2000

This I'll agree with. You have grouped with defilers who have managed to stay alive due to the poor play of freeps. I'm not even going to bother questioning anything you say about defilers further.

I was referring to 1 defiler healing against 5 or 6 freeps in a 2v5 or 2v6. It requires poor play by the freeps in the same way it requires poor play by creeps to not be able to kill 1 healer with 10 or 12.

With that said, despite all this talk about good play, poor play is the norm in the moors. Outside some solos/duos, well played groups are extremely rare on both sides. Needing to play at a high level to win against a group of the same size just does not happen often.

Originally Posted by exx2000

All I know is I'm having a blast the way I play and with who I play. The rest is moot.

The problem with this sort of attitude is that people rarely take the play styles or desires of opponents into consideration. I have had many raided creeps (including you, I believe) wave to me as I horse past or poke around to see what is up but I have had far more intentionally target solos repeatedly. I have had raid leaders (Yicky and Smeg come to mind) move right on past as I am sitting and waiting for a 1v1 or while currently engaged while other leaders chase me half way across the map so they can see that little blue 4 above their head. I have been in raids where the leaders get a good open field or keep fight going and I have been in raids where the leader on either side backs up into one shots.

Originally Posted by Sniz

Please restate your post in one of the following acceptable formats:

1. "haters gonna hate"

2. "u mad bro?"

3. animated gif or "meme" thingie.

Thank you.

As per request

Whoa, whoa, whoa now.. leave me out of your arguing.

Thank you muchly!

The problem with this sort of attitude is that people rarely take the play styles or desires of opponents into consideration.

Unfortunately nothing in this thread promotes the attitude you would like to see in the game. You blame peoples poor game play yet most of you deny the need of another medium that could have been use to direct the players in the right direction. Hate to let you know but the above mentioned attitude is all you will find.

I have had many raided creeps (including you, I believe) wave to me as I horse past or poke around to see what is up but I have had far more intentionally target solos repeatedly.

I have quite a few emotes hotkeyed in at the moment for most situations in the moors. Just so you know you might have had some craids left you alone. But Ive never ever been left alone if solo and found by another fraid. Those scraps of infamy must be worth alot for the freep side too. When I mentioned this when I played my freep the overall consensus was its the Moors , get used to it. Here's something you can try out, start a greenie <whatever creep class you want> and see if a freep raid will leave you alone if you happen to run into them.

I have had raid leaders (Yicky and Smeg come to mind) move right on past as I am sitting and waiting for a 1v1 or while currently engaged while other leaders chase me half way across the map so they can see that little blue 4 above their head.

You know why the whole raid leaves you alone ? Its because they actually listen to the TS3 / Vent and the leader tells them to leave you alone.

Why would you be left alone when you participate in craids which participate in zerging? You don't have a reputation for soloing, which means if I ran across you solo one of us will be retreating back to rez.

/shrug, it was foolish of me to try.

By the way, I have raised all but a WL to at least rank 4. I have done this twice with a BA and twice with a weaver. I have little patience for pve and have only gotten maps on my warg.

Originally Posted by Kiddyfence

The wl wouldn't actually have to do much (could be replaced by another defiler to be honest); give buffs, drop terror banner on freep classes with small power pools, blow cds as needed, toss in the occasional heal, and kite through blight if focused.

Ah, this gave me a chuckle. Thanks Kid, now I get laughs from you in game and on the forums. Could replace us. Ah! The truth.