Thread: Freeps come forth as I am in need of your opinions

Originally Posted by FKing

Nice vid kid. Your fingers must be tough, how much do you finger bench?

To quote Homemovies: a gentleman known simply as 'Finger Master'

www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_pDEzH45pg#t=1m22s

Originally Posted by Daybreak

Anv only have 1 minny

Originally Posted by FKing

We have 3 but zef and docgreenthumb don't play anymore.

Ahem......

Originally Posted by Kiddyfence;6215106

I hadn't responded to the macroing comments because I thought they were funny, but this is an opportunity I can't pass up. Being able to gear/wep swap manually through key binds is, or at least should be, considered basic competence. All it takes is using 60-70 key binds, since the game allows for up to 72 key binds. Your inability to understand how it even occurs suggest that basic competence may be lacking.

For your sake, I have made a short vid showing how it's done. To be frank, if you aren't capable of using 60+ key binds at a reasonably high APM on a class that needs it, then you're just a terrible player and not at our standards.
[url

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNahtFGBJf4[/url]

To be frank, no I don't use 60+ key binds. I just use a few key bindings combined mouse button combinations of the same keys... 14 to be exact.

But you're at it again with the smug. Everyone who has commented has said they find it impressive (what you do) indicating that it is far from "basic competence" as you put it...but you know that already.

You're the one who asked why creeps won't fight your groups. Even though I'm sure the purpose of your post was more to just say "look at me, tell me how good I am". On the off chance I'll play along and give a few answers:

1) Perhaps it has a little something to do with how you conduct yourself both in game and on the forums (cliff jumping)? People surely don't want to be a points node to a self gratifying group of players who come out knowing full well that they will dominate x2 their numbers with ease, only to do things like suicide into a rez (or off a cliff) rather than give away a KB and a few more points.

I have logged in twice shortly after work twice to see your groups running about. first time you were 2x cappy, 1x mini, 1x RK, 1x LM and 1x champ. The 2nd time there was only one cappy.

I went to check it out and watched as your group dealt with ~12 ungrounded creeps and a whole keep of NPC's (Lug) with ease. Somehow the prospect of multiple deaths with no chance for points didn't appeal to me So I went elsewhere and encouraged others to do the same. I felt absolutely no compulsion to make a group to fight your group... Had it been Occa I would have made a group for sure.

2) Even if your group did wipe, a solo player would only get a few scraps of infamy due to all the other solo tags and the NPC's leaching infamy away. So again, there is no compelling reason to stick around and fight.

3)Finally, knowing that there was little to no risk that your group would actually flip the keep (because then you would have no excuse to be grouped up at all) didn't compel me, or others, to stick around and fight.

Tl;dr

You want people to fight your groups? Try making a group when there are creeps that also like to group logged on. You might also try being a little more humble, there is such thing as a poor winner.

Originally Posted by ksjock

To be frank, no I don't use 60+ key binds. I just use a few key bindings combined mouse button combinations of the same keys... 14 to be exact.

But you're at it again with the smug. Everyone who has commented has said they find it impressive (what you do) indicating that it is far from "basic competence" as you put it...but you know that already.

You're the one who asked why creeps won't fight your groups. Even though I'm sure the purpose of your post was more to just say "look at me, tell me how good I am". On the off chance I'll play along and give a few answers:

1) Perhaps it has a little something to do with how you conduct yourself both in game and on the forums (cliff jumping)? People surely don't want to be a points node to a self gratifying group of players who come out knowing full well that they will dominate x2 their numbers with ease, only to do things like suicide into a rez (or off a cliff) rather than give away a KB and a few more points.

I have logged in twice shortly after work twice to see your groups running about. first time you were 2x cappy, 1x mini, 1x RK, 1x LM and 1x champ. The 2nd time there was only one cappy.

I went to check it out and watched as your group dealt with ~12 ungrounded creeps and a whole keep of NPC's (Lug) with ease. Somehow the prospect of multiple deaths with no chance for points didn't appeal to me So I went elsewhere and encouraged others to do the same. I felt absolutely no compulsion to make a group to fight your group... Had it been Occa I would have made a group for sure.

2) Even if your group did wipe, a solo player would only get a few scraps of infamy due to all the other solo tags and the NPC's leaching infamy away. So again, there is no compelling reason to stick around and fight.

3)Finally, knowing that there was little to no risk that your group would actually flip the keep (because then you would have no excuse to be grouped up at all) didn't compel me, or others, to stick around and fight.

Tl;dr

You want people to fight your groups? Try making a group when there are creeps that also like to group logged on. You might also try being a little more humble, there is such thing as a poor winner.

Carefully examine your own thoughts and words.

Kiddyfence states facts about his group composition, the conditions of fighting (verified by you) and refutation of macros by basic key competence. Yet this is smug by your definition. If smug, then how? Simply the player/group performs better than the majority of the opposition. In addition they make sure to inform you of this fact. Therefore the reason you have identified the player as "smug" is rather petty in itself. Accept the factual criticism and improve on it. If an individual's boss informs them of their deficits, does the employee claim that the boss is smug? If a teammate informs his fellow player is lacking in skill set, does the player tell him teammate to stop being so smug and humble himself down?

You want Kiddyfence to become humble. One should check themselves for humility first. Undeserved arrogance is by far worse than deserved arrogance.

As for the praise Kiddyfence has received for his key binds, people like to joke and compliment friends/others. It is in fact basic competence. Examine the requirements to execute the same actions. Place skills/armor/weapons/gear in the quick slots in a pattern familiar to you. Establish key binds for each slot. Take a bit of time practicing the key binds. Execute actions in combat with more experience leading to better performance. Profit. Not all classes need to utilize as many key binds. Not all players intentionally swap as much gear. As a result not everyone needs to do it. But the process is simple if they do desire to do the same.

Lastly your three points are jest at best. Cliff jumping is available to everyone. If players are incapable of executing it successfully, that is their own fault. If they wish to avoid breaking their legs, they can take the long way around or simply avoid combat.

You continue to state that the reason their group does not receive any action is because they are too good, destroying 2x their numbers. So let me get this straight, its their fault that they do not receive the action they want because they can beat creeps at twice their numbers? Yes I am sure the ineptitude of creeps is the reason why they don't deserve action.

Then you state its futile for a solo player to join in the fight since it would mean scrap pickings of infamy. So stating the implicit facts of soloing, where a player is only rewarded for the work they do solo is evidence for why a player should not engage in a fight. Another fallacy in reasoning. The people in Acta non verba have already stated they do not use voice/typing to communicate during battle, just their own abilities to play. The condition are analogous to soloers creepside. Counter argument, if the creeps played their classes to the same level, then there would be no need to group up at 2x the numbers of freeps.

Finally, the fact that players are there for a fight in another groups npcs, purely for a fight not for some meaningless pve in a pvp zone is the reason you do not engage. Lordy, lordy, lordy, lets only fight if our precious keep is in danger.

Skilled players should be rewarded for their skills, not punished.

For all this talk about wanting to fight freep raids, creeps seem to be surprisingly unwilling to fight a group of just 5-6 freeps, even in red keeps. Given the lack of resistance against a group of 6, despite there being quite a few creeps online, I could hardly imagine the lack of action if freeps dared venture out into the moors in a group as large as 9 or, god forbid, 12. Unless the goal is to fight raids of poorly geared, poorly played freeps rather than groups of slightly less poorly geared, but correctly played freeps, then mission (maybe?) accomplished.

I've had plenty of encounters with the above group . Usually I go splat but I don't mind lol. Although what Ive seen is no one actually groups during the time you folks are on . When I can heal my heals don't usually match out the dps being pushed out and becomes an effort in vain and the other times I just go splat within the first three seconds of visual contact. After a couple of tries I just give up and go and quest a bit with my defiler (Yay PvE in a PvP zone!)

Counter argument, if the creeps played their classes to the same level, then there would be no need to group up at 2x the numbers of freeps.

Are you saying a equal number/rank/skilled group of creeps would balance an equal number of freeps ? I don't even see that remotely happening unless you fell asleep at your keyboard. That said the game is what it is and I could care less .

Just my 2 cents.

Originally Posted by exx2000

Are you saying a equal number/rank/skilled group of creeps would balance an equal number of freeps ? I don't even see that remotely happening unless you fell asleep at your keyboard. That said the game is what it is and I could care less .

The sentence should be clear enough, but I will try to state it differently. In the conditions stated in the anecdotes, creeps had ~2x the number of ANV freeps, yet were dying to them. If the solo creeps played their class to the same skill level demonstrated by ANV players/other skilled players, then they would not need to be grouped. Twice as many skilled creeps will beat the skilled freeps, even if solo.

Originally Posted by ksjock

You want people to fight your groups? Try making a group when there are creeps that also like to group logged on. You might also try being a little more humble, there is such thing as a poor winner.

And, clearly, there is such a thing as a poor loser.

The sentence should be clear enough, but I will try to state it differently. In the conditions stated in the anecdotes, creeps had ~2x the number of ANV freeps, yet were dying to them. If the solo creeps played their class to the same skill level demonstrated by ANV players/other skilled players, then they would not need to be grouped. Twice as many skilled creeps will beat the skilled freeps, even if solo.

*Shrug* Never claimed anyone was skilled, I am definitely not skilled at all. My post only asked if you believe that freeps were balanced with creeps.

Originally Posted by Kiddyfence

And numbers should not have been an issue. There were at least 15 creeps, depending on exactly how many wargs, just around TR res alone before we grouped up. And the moment we left the moors, freeps had the outnumbered buff.

Reading skills please ^^

Being farmed at the rez but we aren't allowed to group up?
Shall we line up for you single file so you may farm your infamy?

Mad cause bad.

Originally Posted by FKing

Shall we line up for you single file so you may farm your infamy?

It would probably be for the best, yes. Gotta get those kbs.

Originally Posted by ksjock

2) Even if your group did wipe, a solo player would only get a few scraps of infamy due to all the other solo tags and the NPC's leaching infamy away. So again, there is no compelling reason to stick around and fight.

I've seen a dozen creeps respond to 2 freeps being called out in a keep. Don't underestimate the lengths to which some people will go to get a "few scraps" of renown. The reason you don't stick around is simple, they're better than you and will wipe you. Is that a valid reason to avoid the fight? Sure, just say you want your infamy to come easier to you and be done with it. Or you can complain about balance (creeps had double the numbers remember?) or lack of coordination (ts3? ooc?) or arrogance (ANV can back it up, the majority of moors players sadly can't justify theirs).

Originally Posted by exx2000

*Shrug* Never claimed anyone was skilled, I am definitely not skilled at all. My post only asked if you believe that freeps were balanced with creeps.

Yes you never made the claim. I was just making clearer the sentence quoted. Your original response to my sentence postulated different conditions than I stated, which I inferred to mean your understanding was incorrect.

In regards to determining balance the matter is a lengthy topic of discussion. As I do not wish to spend a lengthy time discussing the matter, I will keep my point short. The fundamental design of LOTRO will never have true balance, impartial to player skill level. The classes function too differently to allow for this to occur (meaning for freep vs. freep/creep vs. creep/freep vs. creep). Additionally, the design of the ettenmoors further skews the notion of balance. Creep classes are able to be made with ease, improved/maximized by the advent of the Turbine store, thereby influencing the potential supply of players in open world pvp. There is also the introduction of audacity, which influences the progress of new players versus old, adjusting the terms of balance. We are left with having to determine a new definition of balance. Hence the lengthy discussion as individuals have their own subjective terms of balance.

However I do not want to leave your question unanswered to some degree. Am I content with the current design of creep classes? No. The classes lack the imagination/development that is present in freep classes. That being said, creeps are not impotent. Certain classes have advantages to others. For example spiders have an advantage to melee freeps (note difference between advantage and overpowered). Not all classes have advantages (warleaders), not all classes have disadvantages in respect to 1v1. The god-like evaluations of certain freep classes (ex: minstrels) is moot. If you cannot beat a class clearly by the design of the game, then do not engage the class in a 1v1. If you are concerned about encountering them in the open world, then do not run solo. The freep may complain about the fact that you overwhelm them with numbers, their argument is irrational. The freep also has the option of running with numbers too. This is the premise accepted when any individual enters the ettenmoors.

As with life, even if the system was perfectly balanced (which it's not), there will always be individuals who rationalize their own ineptitude, thus the debate will never cease.

Originally Posted by CorporateMannequins

I've seen a dozen creeps respond to 2 freeps being called out in a keep. Don't underestimate the lengths to which some people will go to get a "few scraps" of renown.

Creeps can get renown? Please tell me how.

I agree , I'll try to run with a few creeps if I can find a few willing to group and possibly learn my role better. Cheers.

Sorry in advance for derailing the thread in case that's a problem.

Originally Posted by CorporateMannequins

I've seen a dozen creeps respond to 2 freeps being called out in a keep. Don't underestimate the lengths to which some people will go to get a "few scraps" of renown. Sure, just say you want your infamy to come easier to you and be done with it. Or you can complain about balance (creeps had double the numbers remember?) or lack of coordination (ts3? ooc?) or arrogance (ANV can back it up, the majority of moors players sadly can't justify theirs).

Obviously others will scrap for a few points but stating what others will do for infamy doesn’t mean that I will do the same. I’ll defend a keep, I’ll help take one too. I refuse to farm or be farmed in one.

Originally Posted by CorporateMannequins

The reason you don't stick around is simple, they're better than you and will wipe you. Is that a valid reason to avoid the fight?

I doesn't matter how skilled a player you are you can't stand up to 6 grouped up freeps (esp this group) and get a kill. So what exactly is my reason to be around them? I even tried charging them solo (no other creeps about) on my spider hoping of a laugh and perhaps a 1v1 but just got stomped….Oh well I thought if that is how they are going to play.

The only one of that group that I have had 1v1's with is Gando. We have had many good close fights. I win a few and lose a few. I dunno if he gimps himself for 1v1's, I guess he does, never uses AOS but anyway... I don't pretend to be skilled player. I do, however, play this game for enjoyment and dying repeatedly to solid group that is dominating all before them is not fun.

It is the choice of the creeps that are logged on at the same time as this ANV group wether to fight or them or not and as I stated before; they were providing me with little incentive to show up to fight them. People will show up for easy fights. People will show up for a fight they think they can win. Some people, like me, will show for a fight they hope they can win. I don’t think many people will show up for a fight they know they will lose.

From my perspective these groups aren’t like the ANV groups of the past. Once upon a time finding a good fight was the higest priority; their goal now seems to be total domination. One ideology will encourage PvP the other will encourage people to avoid them or log off.

So what you're saying here is that they need to "provide incentive" for you to fight them, otherwise you just aren't motivated to either:

Lead a group of your own
Or do anything besides "solo charge" them

guys. we have a winner.

Once again the goggles shine brightly on you.

Originally Posted by ksjock

But you're at it again with the smug. Everyone who has commented has said they find it impressive (what you do) indicating that it is far from "basic competence" as you put it...but you know that already.

If posting a video, partly in jest and partly to insult, in response to someone calling me a cheat based upon a faulty premise is being smug, then okay. And no, it's not really that difficult to do. I believe the vast majority of ANV and the people who PvP with us do some sort of swapping, the extent of which depends on their class and individual play style.

You're the one who asked why creeps won't fight your groups. Even though I'm sure the purpose of your post was more to just say "look at me, tell me how good I am". On the off chance I'll play along and give a few answers:

It wasn't so much a question as an observation (thus the lack of question marks). The observation being that a large number of players on both sides seem more than happy to fight when they have an overwhelming advantage but are quick to disappear when they are at a disadvantage or even if they still have a slight, but not overwhelming, advantage.

1) Perhaps it has a little something to do with how you conduct yourself both in game and on the forums (cliff jumping)? People surely don't want to be a points node to a self gratifying group of players who come out knowing full well that they will dominate x2 their numbers with ease, only to do things like suicide into a rez (or off a cliff) rather than give away a KB and a few more points.

I don't mind giving away points and kbs to those who work for it. I'm sure various players have had more then their share of my points as they play well or persevere. As for cliff jumping, it's not done to deny points or kbs as I rarely die on the jumps, although mistakes happen. It's more because it's pretty funny and a good way to make points 1v20.

I have logged in twice shortly after work twice to see your groups running about. first time you were 2x cappy, 1x mini, 1x RK, 1x LM and 1x champ. The 2nd time there was only one cappy.

The RK was dpsing so 3 heals 3 dps and then 2 heals 3 dps. The next night, the night I was referring to, we had the same build as the first time, except we traded a captain out for another champ.

I went to check it out and watched as your group dealt with ~12 ungrounded creeps and a whole keep of NPC's (Lug) with ease. Somehow the prospect of multiple deaths with no chance for points didn't appeal to me So I went elsewhere and encouraged others to do the same. I felt absolutely no compulsion to make a group to fight your group... Had it been Occa I would have made a group for sure.

As I said before, it's not done with ease. We wipe essentially every time the creeps defend. We wipe quite a bit from small things: e.g. someone disconnecting, pulling too many npcs, getting separated etc. and other times we are overwhelmed and wipe instantly. Just that no one complains about it when we do.

2) Even if your group did wipe, a solo player would only get a few scraps of infamy due to all the other solo tags and the NPC's leaching infamy away. So again, there is no compelling reason to stick around and fight.

So they're happy with the infamy they get in a solo zerg of 15-20 killing groups of 1-2 in front of a blue res, but not in a red keep against 5 or 6? I believe the problem they have may be in the fact that they have to work to get the points rather than the points themselves.

3)Finally, knowing that there was little to no risk that your group would actually flip the keep (because then you would have no excuse to be grouped up at all) didn't compel me, or others, to stick around and fight.

We need an excuse to run in a group of 5-6 when there are 15-20 creeps camping TR res and freeps almost have the ON buff?

You want people to fight your groups? Try making a group when there are creeps that also like to group logged on. You might also try being a little more humble, there is such thing as a poor winner.

Originally Posted by ksjock

Obviously others will scrap for a few points but stating what others will do for infamy doesn’t mean that I will do the same. I’ll defend a keep, I’ll help take one too. I refuse to farm or be farmed in one.

It is the choice of the creeps that are logged on at the same time as this ANV group wether to fight or them or not and as I stated before; they were providing me with little incentive to show up to fight them. People will show up for easy fights. People will show up for a fight they think they can win. Some people, like me, will show for a fight they hope they can win. I don’t think many people will show up for a fight they know they will lose.

From my perspective these groups aren’t like the ANV groups of the past. Once upon a time finding a good fight was the higest priority; their goal now seems to be total domination. One ideology will encourage PvP the other will encourage people to avoid them or log off.

Ultimately, we prefer fighting outside of keeps. Today we had a few decent fights outside of npcs against a creep group/raid (not sure how many were actually in it). It seemed like we were losing when we had a group of 5 and winning when we had a group of 6, so the fights were fairly close.

There are basically two reasons why we pull keeps when we group up. First is to get away from other freeps because, in general, we don't like when they interfere with our fights. And secondly to handicap ourselves and give the creeps a better chance of winning. If they wipe us easily, then we do expect them to fight us on open ground eventually, but otherwise we'll pull more and more until they do.

As for incentive to defend keeps against our groups of 5-6; it's either fighting in a red keep or open ground. Today, for a change, we flipped lug blue when it wasn't defended and had fights at grams and around blue keeps instead. We still got quite a bit of action as there wasn't really anywhere else for the creeps to go, but the fights became rather one sided. We were running in a smaller group than usual and had more deaths from getting one shot or disconnecting than actually being killed by creeps. The same groups that would wipe us in keeps or give us long 20-30 minute fights were getting wiped in just a few minutes, especially since other freep groups ended up in the same areas as we were. When we pull a keep despite being at a fairly large numerical disadvantage, I see it as an act of mercy. Perhaps you see it as farming.

Challenging Yourself with Your Fights = Farming.

Having a fight with 3x their numbers with a 99.99% Chance of Winning = Good PvP.

Pr0 Burtnakh logic.

Originally Posted by gimli4480

Challenging Yourself with Your Fights = Farming.

Having a fight with 3x their numbers with a 99.99% Chance of Winning = Good PvP.

Pr0 Burtnakh logic.

This attitude goes far beyond one player.

Originally Posted by cmal

This attitude goes far beyond one player.

This is exactly what is wrong with PvP right now.

A freep vent/TS3 will only make it worse.

The zerg will assimilate you.

Resistance is futile

All your bases are belong to us

Originally Posted by Sulfur

So what you're saying here is that they need to "provide incentive" for you to fight them, otherwise you just aren't motivated to either:

Lead a group of your own
Or do anything besides "solo charge" them

guys. we have a winner.

Once again the goggles shine brightly on you.

Lotro PvP has always been like this, if you make your group too big or too strong many on the other side will log off or do something else. It used to be a freep thing (leaving the moors to PvE when things were too hard) but now PvE is a viable avenue for creeps to advance their toon outside of PvP too.

You don't need to like the other side or even respect them but IMO you absoultly do need to encourage them to PvP against you for their renown/infamy. Now more then ever.

@Alekirios, considering I play 90% of the time during Ausi time when, unlike US time, it is the creeps who out numbered. Also during this time I'll usually be found solo. I dunno how much more I could be challenging myself, I guess I could play my reaver...

The aim of the game is fun.
Pursue it. Don't complain about the lack of it.
You are more than experienced enough to know that.

"One feed mouth of strong and ruthless Ogre.
One realize strong and ruthless Ogre become stronger and more ruthless."
- Crouching Tiger Hidden Sazh (Co-founder of the art of war)

Originally Posted by ksjock

Lotro PvP has always been like this, if you make your group too big or too strong many on the other side will log off or do something else. It used to be a freep thing (leaving the moors to PvE when things were too hard) but now PvE is a viable avenue for creeps to advance their toon outside of PvP too.

The reasoning presented is destructive.

According to your premise, if you are strong, then you are bad; if you are weak, then you are good. Ineptitude is rewarded with battles and competency is punished. The premise leaves the arbiter of strong and weak to the subjectivity of players (a weak player will only see other weak players as valid opponents). If the premise is adopted universally, then all progress in pvp will cease. As you stated, when faced with a strong force, players should go PvE to improve their creeps. If you operate on this skewed premise, then what purpose exist to improve your character? It displaces the ineptness to under developed character, not the player, a faulty rationalization. A player may have all skills at their disposable, but if they lack ability their skills are meaningless.

How do players gain ability? By learning. When we are presented with a problem do we avoid it or attempt to figure it out? If you avoid, the problem may return. Constantly avoiding a problem propagates ignorance. To be clear, avoiding a problem is not a technical means of finding a solution. Remember, the aforementioned case where you repeatedly applied this premise is with 6 ANV players, in an opposing keep, against twice their numbers. The players that engaged ANV may have learned information from their experience. Learning is an interactive effort. Engaging more than once, adopting new strategies and examining their effects is learning.

Learned experience does not always result in defeating your enemies, but it does result in your individual progression. Continuing to use the anecdotal evidence of ANV encounter, if one player present learns, then they achieve knowledge to use to improve their performance. In all probability, one player will not shift the tide of battle. Therefore the creep opposition will likely not variate on their tactics/methods, resulting in the lengthy combat of ANV players repeatedly defeating creeps. Eventually through either numbers or endurance, the unlearned creeps can triumph.

The nature of pvp mirrors evolutionary principles. If strength and ability is punished, where weakness and ignorance is rewarded, you degenerate pvp.

Are some conditions of combat utterly futile? Absolutely. If one side produces a raid that dwarfs the opposition, there may be no chance of the side winning or even achieving a kill. This also degenerates the status of pvp. Strength by means of numbers does not exhibit ability. This is one of the fundamental reasons for the average caliber of player in the ettenmoors.

Originally Posted by ksjock

You don't need to like the other side or even respect them but IMO you absoultly do need to encourage them to PvP against you for their renown/infamy. Now more then ever.

The icing on the cake. If I am a weak player, the burden is on you to lower your abilities to motivate me to fight you. When did this become the social contract of players? Never. Each player is present in the ettenmoors under their own volition. They operate through any means they choose, as long as it falls within the terms of use, consented by all players. If they wish to form a raid of 24 players to zerg a group of 6, it is within their right to do so. If a player finds an opposition they do not wish to fight, they have the right to go PvE or log off. This right does not change the effects of their actions, but is within their right. Each individual is responsible for their own motivations.

Originally Posted by ksjock

Lotro PvP has always been like this, if you make your group too big or too strong many on the other side will log off or do something else. It used to be a freep thing (leaving the moors to PvE when things were too hard) but now PvE is a viable avenue for creeps to advance their toon outside of PvP too.

You don't need to like the other side or even respect them but IMO you absoultly do need to encourage them to PvP against you for their renown/infamy. Now more then ever.

@Alekirios, considering I play 90% of the time during Ausi time when, unlike US time, it is the creeps who out numbered. Also during this time I'll usually be found solo. I dunno how much more I could be challenging myself, I guess I could play my reaver...

Not really, I've never taken my ball and gone home after a few deaths. Generally the ones that do just log in for easy points anyways, and clearing that rabble off early can be fun enough. You don't need to do anything for anyone, it's their own prerogative they should worry about. Generally it's the ones in raids all the time that can't handle a few deaths.

Originally Posted by username4114

The nature of pvp mirrors evolutionary principles. If strength and ability is punished, where weakness and ignorance is rewarded, you degenerate pvp.

Not to knit pick (totally knit picking) evolution is ALWAYS advancement, that is an organism or system changes to better suit its environment. While this may result in what seems as a move back on the evolutionary scale in the archaic hierarchy established by late 19th century "biology", evolution is always progressive. This is the beauty of life.

A simple explanation would be chimpanzees/humans. The chimp genome is significantly more adapted to its purpose and environment than the human genome. In all intents and purposes, chimpanzees are a more highly evolved species as they are better at filling their biological niche with a minimum of wasted genetic material. Purity of form.

As applied to a system; as pvp is dumbed down we can expect to see an increase in "inferior" players as a model of efficiency will be to do the bare minimum necessary to meet the demands of the system. When we eliminate the current observed hierarchy of more accomplished and knowledgeable players, this propensity to avoid exertion will become the superior and evolved play. Take a good look at those who only raid, for example. By and large they are seen as "good" players in their individual communities, all evidence to the contrary.

Originally Posted by Sulfur

Not really, I've never taken my ball and gone home after a few deaths.

I certainly have. I have no interest in the direction pvp has been moving. I will log in to test the water and log shortly thereafter to go do something more enjoyable. Like staring at a wall.

Originally Posted by cmal

Not to knit pick (totally knit picking) evolution is ALWAYS advancement, that is an organism or system changes to better suit its environment. While this may result in what seems as a move back on the evolutionary scale in the archaic hierarchy established by late 19th century "biology", evolution is always progressive. This is the beauty of life.

A simple explanation would be chimpanzees/humans. The chimp genome is significantly more adapted to its purpose and environment than the human genome. In all intents and purposes, chimpanzees are a more highly evolved species as they are better at filling their biological niche with a minimum of wasted genetic material. Purity of form.

Yes, evolution is the response of an organism to its environment. Merely that an organism's adaptation to survive does not equate to progress; it equates to survival. Progress is a subjectivity. Therefore some evolution may be progressive, while others may not. If we come to understand that the requirement to define progress is merely existence, then we degenerate the quality of life.

You state that for all intents and purposes chimpanzees are a more evolved species. You limit the parameters of your argument to ecological impact of a species. In fact, you project your own subjective evaluation of what it means to be evolved. If the proliferation of a species is the terms of evolution, then humans would be valued as superior to chimpanzees.

Regardless, upon further review, the principles of evolution are not universally applicable to the dynamics of the pvp system. We are not discussing the environmental changes of the organic world, we are discussing the changes of cognition. Some parallels will exist.

Originally Posted by cmal

As applied to a system; as pvp is dumbed down we can expect to see an increase in "inferior" players as a model of efficiency will be to do the bare minimum necessary to meet the demands of the system. When we eliminate the current observed hierarchy of more accomplished and knowledgeable players, this propensity to avoid exertion will become the superior and evolved play. Take a good look at those who only raid, for example. By and large they are seen as "good" players in their individual communities, all evidence to the contrary.

We have the same observation. This demonstrates why the line of reasoning is destructive. The achievement of ability is not pursued and is in fact opposed. The efficiency of this system is the results of the degradation of thought. If this becomes the universal principle of society, I will weep for humanity.

Fortunately, it is not yet. The existence of ability in pvp is evidence. However, some individuals attempt to achieve such means by trying to convince others to accept their premise on the devaluation of ability. We see it on the forums, we see it in game play.

Originally Posted by username4114

You state that for all intents and purposes chimpanzees are a more evolved species. You limit the parameters of your argument to ecological impact of a species. In fact, you project your own subjective evaluation of what it means to be evolved. If the proliferation of a species is the terms of evolution, then humans would be valued as superior to chimpanzees.

This is where things get muddy. As a biological organism (speaking strictly genetically) efficiency in the genome or any system is desirable.The propensity for #### sapiens to mimic has giving us a distinct advantage in most applications and we are extremely adaptable and can fit any biome that we have encountered thus far. Humans tend to exhibit Lamarkian evolution, the evolution I think you were getting at, and indeed knowledge can be considered an evolution of sorts. We pass the information necessary for survival directly to our posterity to ensure the continuation of our genetic line, the trade off being the multitude of physiological and especially psychological disabilities that can occur in a biologically properly functioning organism.

However, we must remember that evolution as applied to epigenetics is not and never will be linear. A species that fits its niche is more biologically "evolved" as far as the genetics are concerned than a species that has greater adaptability. Evolution does not necessarily equal superiority in the sense that we understand it.

Originally Posted by username4114

We have the same observation. This demonstrates why the line of reasoning is destructive. The achievement of ability is not pursued and is in fact opposed. The efficiency of this system is the results of the degradation of thought. If this becomes the universal principle of society, I will weep for humanity.

Fortunately, it is not yet. The existence of ability in pvp is evidence. However, some individuals attempt to achieve such means by trying to convince others to accept their premise on the devaluation of ability. We see it on the forums, we see it in game play.

This is the unfortunate crux of the matter. I appreciate what ANV and Stainless have done in showing that it isn't simply about the numbers involved. There does seem to be a certain threshold built in, however, where technical skill and knowledge can be overcome by sheer force albeit at a steep cost.

Edit: apparently I cannot use the taxonomical name for humans.

Edit 2: Subspecies are where a species demonstrates its ability to adjust across biomes to fill different niches and demonstrate a species' ability to adapt, the Galapagos finches being the most obvious and widely used example. Biologically speaking, a species is any collection of organisms that can reproduce sexually. Canis lupis is an apt example as well.

Originally Posted by Kiddyfence

If posting a video, partly in jest and partly to insult, in response to someone calling me a cheat based upon a faulty premise is being smug, then okay. And no, it's not really that difficult to do. I believe the vast majority of ANV and the people who PvP with us do some sort of swapping, the extent of which depends on their class and individual play style.

Very impressive indeed. Definitely a requirement to bear the title of best champ.

It wasn't so much a question as an observation (thus the lack of question marks). The observation being that a large number of players on both sides seem more than happy to fight when they have an overwhelming advantage but are quick to disappear when they are at a disadvantage or even if they still have a slight, but not overwhelming, advantage.

It is clear. Moreso on freepside than creepside it seems. Note how creeps poured inside keeps when y'all first started fighting there. After about a week of being constantly destroyed by a group that does not wish to take the keep anyway, those creeps, without any form of organization other than trade macros, decide to go somewhere else. If any of the so called raid leaders had been on at the time, the story would have been different in many ways. But that's just how it is. People on creepside usually do not lead out of nowhere; that's the raid leader's job. While he's not on, the hunt for points in TA/stab is what reigns/ A big flaw in the creep mentality.

I don't mind giving away points and kbs to those who work for it. I'm sure various players have had more then their share of my points as they play well or persevere. As for cliff jumping, it's not done to deny points or kbs as I rarely die on the jumps, although mistakes happen. It's more because it's pretty funny and a good way to make points 1v20.

Ha. I do laugh whenever someone complains about the cliff thing. If anything, it shows something else bothers them. Skill related maybe? "cliff diving kid fence and galerion are on. get your brands ready"

The RK was dpsing so 3 heals 3 dps and then 2 heals 3 dps. The next night, the night I was referring to, we had the same build as the first time, except we traded a captain out for another champ.

As I said before, it's not done with ease. We wipe essentially every time the creeps defend. We wipe quite a bit from small things: e.g. someone disconnecting, pulling too many npcs, getting separated etc. and other times we are overwhelmed and wipe instantly. Just that no one complains about it when we do.

Honestly, if someone doubts that ANV is the most solid group of players out there, individually or put together, they're wrong. Your skill level is as high as it gets. I've seen this, though rather not join the fight against you since I'm usually solo or duo'ing with another warg. Though I do not quite believe that you utilize every single skill and consumable when facing opposition (that's what I take as "not done with ease"), I have seen you wipe, and wipe hard. I cannot take credit from this bit. ANV does die. All the OOC talk about how you guys don't ever wipe seems rather silly, especially when such bad players mention it, which is in turn another factor. Bad, ungrouped players stand no chance against those type of groups, as stated in my above response.


So they're happy with the infamy they get in a solo zerg of 15-20 killing groups of 1-2 in front of a blue res, but not in a red keep against 5 or 6? I believe the problem they have may be in the fact that they have to work to get the points rather than the points themselves.

We need an excuse to run in a group of 5-6 when there are 15-20 creeps camping TR res and freeps almost have the ON buff?

Ultimately, we prefer fighting outside of keeps. Today we had a few decent fights outside of npcs against a creep group/raid (not sure how many were actually in it). It seemed like we were losing when we had a group of 5 and winning when we had a group of 6, so the fights were fairly close.

There are basically two reasons why we pull keeps when we group up. First is to get away from other freeps because, in general, we don't like when they interfere with our fights. And secondly to handicap ourselves and give the creeps a better chance of winning. If they wipe us easily, then we do expect them to fight us on open ground eventually, but otherwise we'll pull more and more until they do.

As for incentive to defend keeps against our groups of 5-6; it's either fighting in a red keep or open ground. Today, for a change, we flipped lug blue when it wasn't defended and had fights at grams and around blue keeps instead. We still got quite a bit of action as there wasn't really anywhere else for the creeps to go, but the fights became rather one sided. We were running in a smaller group than usual and had more deaths from getting one shot or disconnecting than actually being killed by creeps. The same groups that would wipe us in keeps or give us long 20-30 minute fights were getting wiped in just a few minutes, especially since other freep groups ended up in the same areas as we were. When we pull a keep despite being at a fairly large numerical disadvantage, I see it as an act of mercy. Perhaps you see it as farming.


Like I said, whenever a raid leader is NOT on, it's a whole different game. Infamy is what matters and there is no such thing as a good fight, or at least that's what they think. Thus them pouring it at first, gradually decreasing in numbers until the ones left either wanted some real opposition or were angry enough to cease their zerging for points and have a real fight for a change. It'd be very interesting to see you guys go against a Vyxe group/raid. I don't think you are giving due credit to the advantages creeps recieve when grouped. Even if they are still unable to defeat you with even numbers, it'll be waaay harder for you to deal with, no doubt.

But I must credit you for refusing to join the solo zerg. That, I think, is something most creeps forget. You are not being forced to looks for your own fights.

1234567890.

Originally Posted by username4114

The reasoning presented is destructive.....

You are reading too much into the things I said and then expanding apon things I didn't say. I'm fine with rewarding good play but I think you are seriously ignoring the inherent advantages that freeps in groups have.

I get it that 6 friends might want to group up to have some PvP fun. However if we can assume that a group like this was twice a strong as a creep group (not a huge leap), I wonder what freeps might have to say bout a 12 man creep raid that stuck around when there was only one blue keep left and no grouped freeps to fight. Essentially making a group to fight solo's. Of corse the group will say it encourages the other side to group up too. The problem is they may not be willing and you're left zerging solo's again.

There has already been a thread comparing creeps DPS to freep HPS and how it is prolly the single greatest unbalancing factor in lotro PvP. In it experianced players like Meraithe came out and said (something like) healing through the DPS of 12 creeps is not problem.

How many creeps would you say 2 cappies and a healing minstral could deal with? The healing imbalance between the two sides is the reason why, in off peak times, grouped up freeps with 3 healers will not be attracting creeps to fight them.

It has less to do with lack of player skill and more to do with solo creeps simply not having the arsenal (or the unsupported survivability to apply de-buffs) to DPS through that sort of healing. Unless they seriously out number the freeps.

Often imbalance has less to do with the skill of the freeps involved and more to do with the skills that they can use.

If just one of the 3 healers swapped to a DPS class, I think they would find more fights.

Last of all you are also talking like this ANV group was the only freeps out there. The two times I came across them, while they were in a red Lug there was at least 10 other freeps camping the rez. Of these 10 freeps, there was a 4 mini 2 cappy group.

I have been around long enough to know when, even if I did try to make a group to fight these freeps, there isn't enough willing creeps about to put up a proper fight. So as a solo creep my obvious solution is to not be near their group, the same as most other solo creeps, hence the lack of opposition they are reporting even when there a plenty of creeps on.

This is the last i'll have to say on this:

In an open PvP zone; many leaders, both freep and creep, will ask this question. Is my group too strong for the opposition we have to fight? When the answer is yes, many leaders will disband their group untill it is needed.

Notice I said 'strong' rather than big, freeps can eaisly be as strong as a much larger creep group. I dunno call me mad but if it were my group and the only time it was losing was while fighting in an unfriendly keep, one that I had no intention taking, I would certainly reconsider the need for running such a strong group, lest we all get labeled easy moders.

Originally Posted by Ragnazh

1234567890.

The day said "raid leader" does anything without every creep on the map + goldtags will sure be a day.

Originally Posted by ksjock

snip snip

You raise some valid points but you assume that dps is the only way to deal with a situation. To me, this demonstrates both sides of the issues; creeps narrow skill sets and even narrower views. There are plenty of options for dealing with captains and minstrels including disarms and silences. Power drains are quite potent. Intelligent target selection can help as well. It will turn into a game of endurance, a game that well played and traited creeps can win especially in a red keep.

I don't think you will find a single freep out there that would disagree that freeps are significantly more capable than creeps. However, I am sick of seeing this used as a crutch as there are plenty of options to help level the playing field a little.

Originally Posted by Sulfur

The day said "raid leader" does anything without every creep on the map + goldtags will sure be a day.

You haven't paid attention to creepside over the past 3 months I see.

Originally Posted by cmal

I don't think you will find a single freep out there that would disagree that freeps are significantly more capable than creeps. However, I am sick of seeing this used as a crutch as there are plenty of options to help level the playing field a little.

I would argue that a well built, well played creep group should be competitive, but perhaps at a disadvantage, against a freep group of the same size and ability. Once the creep group has a numerical advantage, then they should be winning most of the fights. This is particularly true against freep groups that have too much healing and not enough dps. Mainly because, from what I've seen, defilers are arguably the best class on either side.

Originally Posted by ksjock

There has already been a thread comparing creeps DPS to freep HPS and how it is prolly the single greatest unbalancing factor in lotro PvP. In it experianced players like Meraithe came out and said (something like) healing through the DPS of 12 creeps is not problem.

How many creeps would you say 2 cappies and a healing minstral could deal with? The healing imbalance between the two sides is the reason why, in off peak times, grouped up freeps with 3 healers will not be attracting creeps to fight them.

Do you honestly think 1 freep healer can heal through 12 creep dps for any extended period of time? If I had to guess, just in terms of ideal DPS vs HPS, 2-3 good shadow wargs would be near the limit.

Even then, the main issue isn't freep HPS vs creep DPS but rather creep HPS vs freep DPS, simply because the longer a fight goes, the larger of an advantage that the creeps have due to traited flies. Now with audacity and the buff to traited flies, creeps should be competitive because as long as they stack enough good defilers, they just need to outlast the freep power pools to win. E.g. against 2 cappies and a minstrel, 2 defilers and a warg would win that fight fairly comfortably.

If just one of the 3 healers swapped to a DPS class, I think they would find more fights.

You do realize I have already stated that the next night we went out with one less captain and added another champ (i.e. swapping a healer for a dps) and actually got less resistance.

Notice I said 'strong' rather than big, freeps can eaisly be as strong as a much larger creep group. I dunno call me mad but if it were my group and the only time it was losing was while fighting in an unfriendly keep, one that I had no intention taking, I would certainly reconsider the need for running such a strong group, lest we all get labeled easy moders.

1. Creeps can be easily as strong as a much larger freep group as well, if the freeps are terrible. Same principle holds for freeps.
2. We have, literally, done the same thing on creepside with a group of 6 in a blue TR.
3. There were at least 15 to 20 creeps solo zerging at a blue TR res before we grouped up and the freeps had the ON buff the moment we left the moors. Are you're suggesting that fighting them with 5-6 in a red keep is overpowered and easy moding and that we should instead fight them with 2v20 or, dare I suggest, 3v20? I don't believe mad is the word I would be using. Idiotic perhaps?

Originally Posted by aklouie

You haven't paid attention to creepside over the past 3 months I see.

Why would I? 4-5 years is a greater time period than 3 months.

[removed]

Voice Communication is Important.

Originally Posted by Graycient

Like many Kinships (including mine), we use our own private TeamSpeak server.

But yes, communication is VERY IMPORTANT.

Not really. You just need a group of people who know what they are doing.

Communication is really just one little extra boost.

Originally Posted by Sulfur

Why would I? 4-5 years is a greater time period than 3 months.

Your comment and accusations are full of fail in the current 'moors.

Originally Posted by gimli4480

Communication is really just one little extra boost.

This is why you're not a leader.

Originally Posted by Graycient

"Communications, or the ability to inform people what you expect of them in understandable terms and the ability
to transmit to them your interest in them, is the key to successful leadership." --– GEN Harold K. Johnson

Have you ever raided? Without In-Game or an alternative voice-speak program your raid won't do as well. Less chaotic if you're able to call off orders right as you go. After-all, situations change, and it's up to the leader to change things to do... Even if it means doing something NOBODY else would expect. So the only way they'd know it happens would be if they heard about it, no?

Vyxe's Raids are a GREAT example of this.


I hope Raiding will live on in LOTRO.




*cough* seriously??? wow that's just sad.

Derp.

Uh. A good group of players doesn't need voice for "leading". They should know the targets who need to die first, trouble finding the target there is RAT. They know when to pull back, even a bad can see his zerglord pulling back. Good players who play together already knows who gets the first rez and who uses what cooldown first. They don't ask or wait to be told to use it. The group isn't micromanaged. They don't have a leader.

& Vyxe, uh. Most creeps are zerglets. That is a period, not a question mark. Also, most freeps are zerglets. Majority of those players are aboslutely free kill in 1v1, 1v2, or 1v3 situations. Lol @ r12 warg who can't kill a champ at 1.5k health and sprints away after he pops sudden defence. Next time he shows up he has a few friends.