While the War Banner is great for melee, casting classes get shafted. Might and Agility does them little good, and I believe we should be able to boost the offensive-capacity of both magic-based classes as well as weapon-based ones with our banner.
Therefore I propose an additional Will/Fate +75 stat increase be placed on the War Banner. I hope you will consider this ^^
While the War Banner is great for melee, casting classes get shafted. Might and Agility does them little good, and I believe we should be able to boost the offensive-capacity of both magic-based classes as well as weapon-based ones with our banner.
Therefore I propose an additional Will/Fate +75 stat increase be placed on the War Banner. I hope you will consider this ^^
I find it interesting.... but I also see this as stepping on Victory Banner's toes.
While the effects granted are fairly minor compared to what the Victory Banner grants, it does give captains one less reason to use an already rare banner.
I find it interesting.... but I also see this as stepping on Victory Banner's toes.
While the effects granted are fairly minor compared to what the Victory Banner grants, it does give captains one less reason to use an already rare banner.
I use Victory Banner all the time Almagnus. In fact it's the banner I trait for - and still would be the best banner on any long boss fight in my opinion, so I don't really see how this change would step on it's toes.
I use Victory Banner all the time Almagnus. In fact it's the banner I trait for - and still would be the best banner on any long boss fight in my opinion, so I don't really see how this change would step on it's toes.
But your opinion is respectfully noted ^^
if you or your group needs power, switch to song-brother and use inspire a few times. real easy.
if you or your group needs power, switch to song-brother and use inspire a few times. real easy.
It's not that easy O98. Song brother can only be used on one person at a time - and using it also gimps my healing in a fairly big way. So while Song Brother may be a great way to restore power to an individual if they are getting low - there is still deffinitely a place for a group-wide power buff in my opinion.
It's not that easy O98. Song brother can only be used on one person at a time - and using it also gimps my healing in a fairly big way. So while Song Brother may be a great way to restore power to an individual if they are getting low - there is still deffinitely a place for a group-wide power buff in my opinion.
./sigh. lrn2play
if your not traited fellowship-brother, you should just delete your captain. and how does it gimp your healing?
if your not traited fellowship-brother, you should just delete your captain. and how does it gimp your healing?
Just because someone uses different traits than you doens't mean they should "delete their captain"
And Song Brother gimps my healing because I lose access to the HoT from Inspire and the 20% increase to my healing from Strength of Will.
It's pretty accepted among HoH Captains that Shield Brother is the better tool for healing - epsecially if you are doing all of the healing yourself, as is often the case if you play a healing Captain.
How about 1000 to phys and tact mastery (1000 not set in stone, just more than 750 to counteract the loss of other benefits from main stats like that) and some crit for the hell of it too. Then it wont trod on Power Banner
Alternatively, maybe +5% physical and tactical damage, which covers all your bases and actually brings a little more damage, but loses out on little things like block and crit chance with the current banner.
Last edited by Omen_Kaizer; Jun 02 2012 at 08:03 PM.
How about 1000 to phys and tact mastery (1000 not set in stone, just more than 750 to counteract the loss of other benefits from main stats like that) and some crit for the hell of it too. Then it wont trod on Power Banner
Alternatively, maybe +5% physical and tactical damage, which covers all your bases and actually brings a little more damage, but loses out on little things like block and crit chance with the current banner.
I did a write up on this a while back that converts all of the banners to stuff that's more useful.
Truth is, they all ('Moors included) need a rethink.
How about 1000 to phys and tact mastery (1000 not set in stone, just more than 750 to counteract the loss of other benefits from main stats like that) and some crit for the hell of it too. Then it wont trod on Power Banner
Alternatively, maybe +5% physical and tactical damage, which covers all your bases and actually brings a little more damage, but loses out on little things like block and crit chance with the current banner.
Well I don't really think it would trod on the power banner one way or the other like I said. In-combat-power regen is useful to any class, rather they kill things with magic or weapons.
Main problem I have with the War Banner is it does almost nothing for magic classes, and I think that's a problem that should be addressed. Reason I suggested the will/fate +75 is because it mirrors the current might/agility +75. But swapping those out and instead adding 1k physical mastery and tactical mastery would be fine as well. Really all I want is for the war banner to give a worthwhile buff to magic-based classes. So anything that would accomplish that would work in my book.
Well I don't really think it would trod on the power banner one way or the other like I said. In-combat-power regen is useful to any class, rather they kill things with magic or weapons. ...
In theory, yes. In practise, there are a lot of ways to make increased ICPR redundant. (Just to name a few: power discipline by players, specific gearing of players, amount and magnitude of Rallying cries with Now for Wrath traited, specific boss fought...)
The same is true for the Hope Banner. When people have a sufficient morale cushion and care to avoid avoidable damage, you dont need the increased morale cushion. The +hope on it is irrelevant anyway in hard encounters as the group will be running with hope tokens already. If only it would stack...
Which pretty much leaves the war banner as the one that in theory should give a benefit in every case - I think a change to +1000ish to physical mastery and tactical offense/mastery could be quite the boon. A +% damage increase would maybe be too good on people that already dish out tons of damage. Or so low that less-than-ideally staffed groups get a lot less benefit from it.
Personally, I use the visctory banner only occasionally when the flow of the fight shows that people might need a little boost. Or, if the incoming damage allows, do the stance dance with fellowship brother. In either case it is my opinion that none of the banners require traiting. Maybe the war banner, but just to get the red capstone trait and when you cant realistically use the routing cry stun.
Last edited by Vandervahn; Jun 03 2012 at 07:32 AM.
I agree a revamp is needed
And plz remove the trait...
1000 tact and phys mastery(or 750 due to lvl?)
-5% attack duration
+3% crit chance
Just my 2 cents
Yep, I agree. And the trait is fine, just make it +2% crit -5% attack duration, or something nice.
Fact is, LtC traits have few choices if you don't want to trait herald. In raids if I go LtC I trait
the banner, in that I don't often WANT very short stuns that give mobs stun immunity. If you
got rid of this trait, there would be no choices at all. Wouldn't mind replacing these, traiting banners
isn't so awesome. Nicer to be able to without consideration to traiting switch banners as per the
current need...
In theory, yes. In practise, there are a lot of ways to make increased ICPR redundant. (Just to name a few: power discipline by players, specific gearing of players, amount and magnitude of Rallying cries with Now for Wrath traited, specific boss fought...)
The same is true for the Hope Banner. When people have a sufficient morale cushion and care to avoid avoidable damage, you dont need the increased morale cushion. The +hope on it is irrelevant anyway in hard encounters as the group will be running with hope tokens already. If only it would stack...
Which pretty much leaves the war banner as the one that in theory should give a benefit in every case - I think a change to +1000ish to physical mastery and tactical offense/mastery could be quite the boon. A +% damage increase would maybe be too good on people that already dish out tons of damage. Or so low that less-than-ideally staffed groups get a lot less benefit from it.
Personally, I use the visctory banner only occasionally when the flow of the fight shows that people might need a little boost. Or, if the incoming damage allows, do the stance dance with fellowship brother. In either case it is my opinion that none of the banners require traiting. Maybe the war banner, but just to get the red capstone trait and when you cant realistically use the routing cry stun.
Well I read this and I'm just going to say this.
If you or your group is having a hard time staying alive due to low morale that's when you can use Hope Banner. If your doing a fight where you or your group has power issues, that's when you can use Victory Banner.
The banners are just there to provide support in nessassary areas, and can vary widely depending on what you are doing and who are you doing it with. If you find little use for the Victory Banner, that's simply because you either do content that isn't power intenstive or play with people who have a lot of power and don't need any support in that area.
Also the Victory Banner is best used pre-emptively. If you wait until the "flow of battle" dictates, chances are it's going to be too late by then - as ICPR works over-time and isnt' an instant fix.
But anyways... we are getting sidetracked here. I really wasn't trying to talk about Victory or Hope banner, or rather or not people should trait for one or the other or none at all. Those are just preferences based off individual circumstances and an endless debate to talk about. I am trying to point out a flaw in the War Banner.
The purpose of the War Banner is to provide an offensive buff to both you and the group in situations where an offensive buff makes the most sense. The problem with this banner however is it only supplies an offensive buff to weapon-based characters, and the magic-based characters get shafted. That's what I got an issue with, and that's what needs to change.
You really can't consider a change to one banner (or skill, trait, or trait-line) without taking into account other parts of the class because one chamge will always have an impact on the usage and relative power of other stuff in the class. That's one of the reasons why there was some rsitance to th self SotD.
You really can't consider a change to one banner (or skill, trait, or trait-line) without taking into account other parts of the class because one chamge will always have an impact on the usage and relative power of other stuff in the class. That's one of the reasons why there was some rsitance to th self SotD.
I just don't agree with you here Almangus.
I don't think adding a Will/Fate +75 buff to our War Banner as I suggested would have any impact on the usefuleness of our other banners.
I would still use my Victory Banner on fights that give me and my group power issues. I would still use my Hope Banner when I'm in groups where low morale was a problem. All this change would do is let me use my War Banner when I'm in a group dominated by magic-based classes and not feel like it was largely going to waste.
I think the point some of us are trying to make is that the game mechanisms changed, but the banners didn't. You identified one way in which the old banner wasn't the best to begin with, and now really lacks. With the tact/phys masteries and tact/phys mitigations, it would seem an easy way to deal with the banner would be to just remove the specific virtue buffs, and deal with the masteries. Tactical or physical covers all classes.
Good conversation...well, except for the chest thumping bits.
I use Victory Banner all the time Almagnus. In fact it's the banner I trait for - and still would be the best banner on any long boss fight in my opinion, so I don't really see how this change would step on it's toes.
But your opinion is respectfully noted ^^
Out of curiosity, what exactly are you doing where power is a problem?
First of all the whole captain traits need a redesign: make the captain trait lines more different in way of play, but a way to begin this woud be to redisgn the banners and an improvment for themas 2trait bonus in the trait lines 2yellow improvement for the Hope Banner
2blue improvement for the Victory banner, 2red improvement for the War Banner.
Georg Schramm "...wir brauchen Idioten sonst frisst keiner Gammelfleisch!"
Out of curiosity, what exactly are you doing where power is a problem?
Dreagon, let me just first say I play with a lot of pug groups and newish kin-members just coming up in the ranks. It's very common for my tank to still be in yellows with 7k morale for example. So I have to make frequent use of IN Harms Way and Shield of the Dunedain on top of my normal heal/melee skill spam. That can be a big power drain, so just about any boss fight can make a big dent in my power depending on the group I'm with.
Also, not to mention when I raid the Runekeepers and Ministrels nicely demand that I use my Victory Banner, so I supopse they really like it and seeing as I like it also - I ususally oblige them. So power seems to be a real issue in a lot of things I do. And switching to Song Brother can be a risky move if you have a squishy tank, so I like to avoid having to do that as much as possible. I should also point out that I'm not conservative in my use of power at all, and like to blow through it without any regard to being limited. So that might be some of it also
I don't really want to get sidetracked here in a discussion about power though - because the subject of this thread is actually fairly important to me. It annoys me how the War Banner offers no offensive buff of worth to magic-based classes, and I'd like to see this change.
Since your considering adding will and fate, why not add vitality and make the war banner IDoME on a stick?
I'd prefer it to be an offensive stat rather Vitality, though changing the Hope Banner to give Vitality instead of Morale could be an interesting change, as then you would get some tactical mitigation on top of the raw morale bonuses.
I think the point some of us are trying to make is that the game mechanisms changed, but the banners didn't. You identified one way in which the old banner wasn't the best to begin with, and now really lacks. With the tact/phys masteries and tact/phys mitigations, it would seem an easy way to deal with the banner would be to just remove the specific virtue buffs, and deal with the masteries. Tactical or physical covers all classes.
Good conversation...well, except for the chest thumping bits.
Lupini, I already said I'd be fine with adding a Physical/Tactcial mastery buff to the War Banner in a previous post. It would better than the current banner - and any improvement I would welcome. As long as it at least gave SOMETHING to magic-based classes to help improve their offense.
I don't really want to get sidetracked here in a discussion about power though - because the subject of this thread is actually fairly important to me. It annoys me how the War Banner offers no offensive buff of worth to magic-based classes, and I'd like to see this change.
Lore Police: There are no magic based classes in the game, so they don't need a buff, so the War Banner's fine.
Lore Police: There are no magic based classes in the game, so they don't need a buff, so the War Banner's fine.
Almagnus, the reason I am using the term "magic-based" instead of "tactical-based" as I ususally would is because it doesn't fit in my argument. If I was to say for example: The War Banner doesn't give any real benefit to "tactical-based" classes that woudn't be accurate, since you could argue me as a Hands of Healing Captain could be considered a Tactical Class, and the War Banner does benefit me. That's why I say that.
Though I should point out I remember Gandalf hurling fireballs in the books, and I think most people would consider that a kind of "magic"
How about 1000 to phys and tact mastery (1000 not set in stone, just more than 750 to counteract the loss of other benefits from main stats like that) and some crit for the hell of it too. Then it wont trod on Power Banner
Alternatively, maybe +5% physical and tactical damage, which covers all your bases and actually brings a little more damage, but loses out on little things like block and crit chance with the current banner.
These are the best solution(s), either/or.
Presumably it's supposed to be an offensive banner. If you added will to it, it starts looking a little bit like IDoME.
If you buff war banner though, make hope banner's hope bonus stack with a token.
These are the best solution(s), either/or.
Presumably it's supposed to be an offensive banner. If you added will to it, it starts looking a little bit like IDoME.
If you buff war banner though, make hope banner's hope bonus stack with a token.
I would support making Hope Banner stack with tokens. That should already be the case.
Disagree about adding Will to War Banner would make it too much like In Defense of MIddle Earth.
And I can't believe you actually made a siggy about my preference for Fate lol
Dunebug, if you don't want to stack Fate past 250 be my guest, and I never advised anyone on some magic number they should be reaching for. All I simply said was Fate is a nice stat for Captains, and I"ll stand by that statement any day of the week. If you don't like to take it past 250, that is entirely up to you. There is no need to make your siggy about it
You are going off on some side debate about Maiar or something simply because I used the term "magic" to describe spell-casting attacks on lotro and how I was somehow "incorrect" to do so lol
If you want to talk about the origins of Gandalf fine. But it has NOTHING to do with what I was talking about.
I said most people would consider a wizard "hurling fireballs" as a form of "magic", and I think i'll stand by that very innocent and common-sense statement
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