I think I remember a dev. quote from a while back saying that they wanted all trait-lines to be raid viable. Rune-keepers are both excellent healers and excellent DPS in raids; why do you think it is ok that they are able to fill 2 roles while guardians are much more limited in what they can achieve? Despite having 3 raid-viable trait lines do you think rune keepers are still asking for improvements and tweaks? Of course they are and why not? I really don't understand why you show so much attitude to people who have the 'audacity' to suggest that there are things with the guard that could be improved or tweaked.
OK so now you just sound like a child. Too lazy? You do realise this is a game we play for enjoyment and not a full time job right?
I believe we are talking about guardians here.. not RKs.... Sure some classes do need changes... I just dont believe the Guardian is one of them.
Of course its not a full time job.. it is for enjoyment and it is not hard to lvl a 2nd toon to lvl cap.. this game is so solo friendly and even more so when playing a dps class.
What I am not understanding is people are here asking for a viable secondary role for raids... so if your raiding on your guard and not putting in the time and effort required to properly gear the character up.. then your failing to begin with.. and it doesnt surprise me that you feel the class needs some ez mode added.
Yes my guard is very well geared for both tanking and a dps role. Ive put in the effort to find the items within the realm of lotro to better suit the role im filling.. I dont go into OP with 5 reds and 2k vit.... if your doing this then there is no wonder why your dps sucks and you cannot fill the 2nd role that the guardian CAN fill.
In my dps build.. I have just over 1k vit.. but close to 2k might.... Physical Mastery over 100% and 19% crit chance. With that build I put out some really nice dps.
Im not trying to bash you guys for wanting changes, be them small or major changes.. Im trying to help you understand what works for me and allows me to already fill the dps role in raids when a 2nd tank is not needed. The role in which you are asking to be changed however slight it may be... in my opinion its fine just as it is. I understand the changes you guys want made.. but personally I enjoy the challenge the class currently presents and believe that the majority of those changes will make the class to OP and will take away from the enjoyment I find in the class in its current state making it boring and less of a challenge. This is my enjoyment.... dont knock it because you dont enjoy the same challenges I do.. Im not knocking yours.
It honestly just sounds like many want an easier class to play rather than putting in the effort to gear up and maximize what the class is already capable of doing.
I've got it on good authority, that the Guardian class will once again be able to use the "overpower" stance with a shield in hand. Some skills will be modified and there will be a few new animations to old skills to give the appearance the shield is being used in more of an attacking sense. There will be one catch... to help with balance issues and discourage tanking in overpower stance you only be able to activate overpower stance when equipped with a LIGHT shield.
Kobane Hammerstone High Warden of the Grey Mountains
Wow you guys make me embarrassed to admit I play a guardian.. ffs quit your crying.
Any tank who has played since SoA can tell you the Guardian is far better off than it ever has been.. and the changes that has brought it here have come from feedback from the players to the devs. Just because the dev is NOT READY to divulge the information you want NOW doesnt mean your being ignored.. he stated he would rather wait until the changes are final before he tells us that something might get changed to have it not and open a new can of your complaining.
Lets look at logic here... the original fellowship in this game was a guardian, minstrel, burglar, hunter, lore master, captain and champion... All these classes had a specific role to fill in the game.
Guard - Tank
Champ - melee dps
Captain - Support heals
Lore Master - Support CC
Hunter - Ranged dps
Burglar - CC/melee dps
Minstrel - Healer
As someone who has played a guardian since the game launch.. I know the reason I made the class.. to TANK!!! I made a hunter to dps... not to tank.... I made a captain to be support.. not for dps or tanking.. I made a lore master to support cc.. not to tank or heal or dps... All of these classes are very effective with their role.
I play my tank in ToO t2 raids on a weekly basis.. and also in the moors in pvp... and I have to say the class is perfect in my opinion. I can mitigate more dmg than any other class... I can deal a significant enough dps to 1v1 just about any creep on our server and I have the ability to heal myself quite a bit in a short period of time (burst).
If you have the Draigoch 5pc bonus... switch to it.. use Warriors Fortitude, Deep Breathe and use it again.. there is 6k in burst healing.. not to mention CaB for a few hundred everytime its off cd.... Got the LLG Jewelry set? There is a 2k bubble with 2k heal.... not to mention double pledge and whatever racial skill you may have... ie man heal, eldars grace.
In my opinion the majority of complaining about this class needing worked on or changed is by people who are to lazy to roll another toon and level it for that specific purpose.
For those saying the devs have a responsibility to acknowledge them as a consumer.. you obviously have no concept of economics... this game is large.. your measly 15 dollars a month will not break the company.. their obligation is to their investors to provide a quality gaming experience that brings in money. Not to you.
Sure it would be nice if the devs gave more information.... but truth is that its a game still being developed... changes being discussed and thought out.. and no company is going to give you specifics on any changes they are making to their product until its a done deal.
Someone compared it to buying a car at a dealership... totally off based... the car is sitting there, already made.. finished and ready to be sold and driven... if it was still in development, the dealer would simply tell you the same thing.. when the final information on changes, specs and what not are complete.. you will get your answers. You bashing the dev for being tight lipped is downright childish and disrespectful.... id advise against it.
The class is not broken.. all my skills work just fine... the playing experience is that of no other class. The effectiveness of tanking is bar none better than any game ive ever played. We are not a dps class.. but even as we stand now.. I can fully gear out might and phys mastery, run redline and op and put out 1300 sustainable dps in fights, which is enough to qualify for an off dps class.... and more dps than most redlined captains will put out.
So Devs.. please dont fix anything with my class, dont make any changes to make it more ez mode.. and leave my dps alone.. its fine right where it is.
Thanks
Aigs
I couldn't agree more . Guards do not need more dps or stackable bleeds or any other such garbage. I have played mine for 3 years and never felt i couldn't get the job done with the skills at hand.
I couldn't agree more . Guards do not need more dps or stackable bleeds or any other such garbage. I have played mine for 3 years and never felt i couldn't get the job done with the skills at hand.
I mean, you have to admit it would make the class more fun to have brutal assault be a 100% chance, and to allow thrust / salt the wound to stack at least up to 3 or something.
I am not overly concerned about how much dps that adds up to. I'd just like to have 8 bleeds on a mob. It'd also have the benefit of being usable while tanking to do some damage.
I didn't bother to read most of the thread. I scanned and I believe the gist is a debate between whether a guard does enough damage in OP to be a viable dps as a secondary role. No one argues rationally that guards can't tank. It's not easy at the top, but we can.
So, first; we define viable dps. It's a comparison to other dps classes, and imo should be a case of expecting to deal 90% of what a dps class can, and have it be sustainable. This would be conceivably enough for groups or raids to allow a guard to dps and lose that 10% that they could have from a dps class for the benefit of the stagger debuff, the added possibility of cj's, and possibly the occasional challenge+pledge utility.
Originally Posted by ImaDecoy
In my dps build.. I have just over 1k vit.. but close to 2k might.... Physical Mastery over 100% and 19% crit chance. With that build I put out some really nice dps.
I can do more glass cannon than that, namely hitting more than 2k might and 21% crit chance, and I've toyed with various armour make-ups having access to the moors sets. I hit 1.2k parses for 2mins on dummies at the best of times (using 5 ToO as the best option after comparing dps). After 2 mins, you can expect to run out of power. This compares to hunters and burgs both commonly managing over 1.8k and sustaining power better than us.
We're not viable dps. If you think we are; you're mistaken, you're most likely being subjective and assuming that the bleeds and our patterns of subsequent fast attacks make us up to comparable and viable dps. They do not. The numbers show as much.
As to why we slipped so far behind? It's simple enough. Offense values shot up from 15% to 100+% in glass cannon builds with the advent of RoI and our dps stance was and is based around a 28% boost to offense enabling our non-dps-oriented-skillset to deal as much as dps classes deal. 28% stepped us up close to dps'ers pre-RoI, but then we both shot up stupidly high to 100+% and so our 28% became diminished to 14-% and their greater multipliers became twice as valuable (not to mention the changes to other aspects of dps classes). This all because they removed caps (they had told us there'd be an offense cap of +50%, and I suspect that this was the working design idea until late before release, and was why guard dps wasn't addressed before they handily gimped us with the xpac) and reoriented stats to very high primary stat focuses.
The sum of this is guards not being viable dps is that in the vast majority of situations; taking us as dps would be gimping the group/raid as the lost dps is of far greater worth than any utility we can bring.
If you only gave up 10 % dmg over a hunter then the servers would be over run with guards. No one would bother with any other class because they would have heavy armour and everything else to take a beating and would do almost top dmg. To me that is absolutely ridiculous to even suggest.
If you only gave up 10 % dmg over a hunter then the servers would be over run with guards. No one would bother with any other class because they would have heavy armour and everything else to take a beating and would do almost top dmg. To me that is absolutely ridiculous to even suggest.
Champs are exactly what you just suggested guards would be, in the current build. They're even better than that even, in that they're the kings of aoe even when traited single-target and have better survivability in glass-cannon than a guard does.
Does everyone play a champ? No.
10% is a huge difference in lotro (heck, any game where it's a comparison of a particular area of a toon), if you don't know that you really shouldn't be on the guard forums where every 0.1% of a stat are striven for.
It's ridiculous to me that you don't realise how major 10% of net damage is when most raid bosses in the game have a dps-race component to them.
Champs are exactly what you just suggested guards would be, in the current build. They're even better than that even, in that they're the kings of aoe even when traited single-target and have better survivability in glass-cannon than a guard does.
Does everyone play a champ? No.
10% is a huge difference in lotro (heck, any game where it's a comparison of a particular area of a toon), if you don't know that you really shouldn't be on the guard forums where every 0.1% of a stat are striven for.
It's ridiculous to me that you don't realise how major 10% of net damage is when most raid bosses in the game have a dps-race component to them.
Champs are a dps class and yes they are the most common dps class because of it.You are asking for guardians dmg to be moved to just under established dps classes dmg. If you want to play a dps class quit being lazy level a second toon its really that simple. I don't have problems getting into raids i don't have people telling me i can't come because im useless or anything. Like i said before in a previous post learn to use what we have to the fullest instead of asking for everything to be made easier for you.
Merge OP with parry stance (parry stance is useless)
Remove power cost in OP and give us a reliable power return skill, power issues are really frustrating.
Force Opening should ALWAYS give a parry response, no matter if it gets b/p/e/miss (inspired by Improved Turn the Tables)
Hemorrhage should apply bleed 100% of the time
Reduce attack duration for skills like Brutal Assault, Force Opening, To the king
Some crit multipliers would be awesome, we aren't a DPS class but every other class has crit multipliers
A self heal would be really nice too
Give us a reliable slow in block stance so we can actually run around in the moors while traited yellow. Engage/Snare is a joke, engage slows you back and creeps can pot Snare effect.
I can't really explain it but bpe mechanic is dying in the moors, classes used to base upon it (guards/wardens/burgs) but creeps get more and more skills that override bpe. Our pledge is 30-40% effective in comparisson to what it used to be. You need to come up with something new. Maybe you should increase the morale heal from warrior's heart by like 200% (The dragon set heal is really nice) and convert pledge into a skill that gives +25% melee damage, +25% crit multiplier and +25% crit chance (like the hunter focus buff).
Courage and honor are the two greatest qualities of mind.
Aristotle
Actually, I would like to see a class that can wear a shield but still be classified as DPS. It's kind of annoying that they aren't, especially since shields were as much a weapon as they were armor in real life.
Just an idea I had that would basically involve revamping Overpower.
Going into Overpower stance, you sacrifice a percentage of your block skill, as well as your +aggro on all of your skills.
However, your skills gain a damage increase in return, and your auto-attacks now include a shield bash, as if you were dual-wielding your weapon and shield.
Perhaps, at a certain level, your skills that involve shield-bashing start to unbalance the enemy, reducing their parry/dodge/block by a certain amount.
Since, to me, "Overpower" means rushing the enemy so they don't have time to form a proper attack or defense.
Just an idea. I have no idea if that would work well at all.
Beauty is not a feminine trait. Strength is not a masculine trait.
Offense values shot up from 15% to 100+% in glass cannon builds with the advent of RoI and our dps stance was and is based around a 28% boost to offense enabling our non-dps-oriented-skillset to deal as much as dps classes deal. 28% stepped us up close to dps'ers pre-RoI, but then we both shot up stupidly high to 100+% and so our 28% became diminished to 14-% and their greater multipliers became twice as valuable (not to mention the changes to other aspects of dps classes).
I wanted to +rep you for what you wrote before my quote, but somehow my +rep button is missing. On the quoted part, buffs like the fervour bonus damage suffer from the same change in offense values. But champions and other classes are benefiting from other mechanisms which are still highly effective, such as critical multiplier.
Originally Posted by Depher
If you only gave up 10 % dmg over a hunter then the servers would be over run with guards.
Burg stacking is the most effective way to increase a raid DPS. I am still waiting for the swarm of burgs to overflow our servers. Or your claim is simply baseless. .... waiting .... waiting .... Well, let's say that your claim is bogus and move on, shall we?
No one would bother with any other class because they would have heavy armour and everything else to take a beating and would do almost top dmg.
Two sentences, two bogus claims. Champions are a top damage class, and as the devs put it "able to tank raid level content". Please name any server where there are more champions in the skirmish leaderboard than hunters (hint: I haven't found one).
To me that is absolutely ridiculous to even suggest.
What is ridiculous is to make stuff out of thin air and claim that they are true (especiallly when talking about what would happen if something changed). Go check the skirmish leaderboards, they will teach you something about server population and activity (if a player gains a level he has been playing, if he stays at the same level for months and is below 75, he is probably not really questing).
Originally Posted by Depher
Champs are a dps class and yes they are the most common dps class because of it.
If you want to play a dps class quit being lazy level a second toon its really that simple.
It's not lazyness, it's called life. You know, to some of us life happens, and we can't level many toons to 75. But before you argue any further, I did level a champion to 75, and I have seen the differences. And I still think we ought to be able to have a viable second role in raids. (Did you notice how I did not ask for the same DPS as DPS classes? We need aggro reductions, possibly more parry events and a better power sustainability).
I don't have problems getting into raids i don't have people telling me i can't come because im useless or anything.
Yes, it is nice to have friends who won't tell ou that you are a drag, even if they think so. That does not make you less of a drag.
Like i said before in a previous post learn to use what we have to the fullest instead of asking for everything to be made easier for you.
So, you believe we should be happy with our lot in life, and not strive to improve anything. I won't add any metaphore here, I think anyone can come up with a good one.
In my dps build.. I have just over 1k vit.. but close to 2k might.... Physical Mastery over 100% and 19% crit chance. With that build I put out some really nice dps.
Nice and all, BUT how much ??? Is your DPS half of that a hunter/champ/RK does or less than that ?
Originally Posted by Depher
I have played mine for 3 years and never felt i couldn't get the job done with the skills at hand.
Which job ? Tanking, sure we all get that job done.
How about DPS ? Do you feel you can get even half the job done ?
How about support/debuff ? do you think you have anything worth to offer ?
Originally Posted by Depher
If you only gave up 10 % dmg over a hunter then the servers would be over run with guards. No one would bother with any other class because they would have heavy armour and everything else to take a beating and would do almost top dmg. To me that is absolutely ridiculous to even suggest.
I do not know about you, but I did not roll a class based on DPS (obviously LOL) or armor...
And where are the swarms of champs that should be crowding the servers if your statement was even a parsec away from the truth ???
---
Now, seriously !!! Every other class has at least 2 viable raid roles.
Do we ?
NO
What raid leader (in his right mind) would even think of preferring an OP guard (1-1.1 DPS NOT sustainable) over a champ or a hunter that have more than 2k sustainable DPS ??? Please answer me. Do not give "I manage to get in raids because I have a lot of in-game friends" please... I mean weighting logically advantages/disadvantages.
The way I see it (and, I believe, most reasonable players) taking a OP guard in a raid is like taking a stubborn donkey tied with Arabian steeds in a horse-chariot race...
Originally Posted by ImaDecoy
It honestly just sounds like many want an easier class to play rather than putting in the effort to gear up and maximize what the class is already capable of doing.
About that. There are a few fellow guards that that accuse us (by "us" I mean those that ask for OP upgrades) of laziness.
This is ridiculous imo.
I think that most of those few, never bothered with OP, never liked it, and now that there is a possibility that with some changes it will be actually worth it, are too lazy to learn to play using OP style. How about that ?
It is one thing to disagree with smth proposed and another to accuse the proposer(s) of being lazy/stupid etc
("stupid" is just an example).
My main is GRD. I have 5 chars in total, created mainly for crafting.
I love my guard, but more than often enough it is difficult to impossible (and not at all surprising) to join a raid/instance that has a GRD already. (even kinship runs are not always an exception).
So I started lvling my RK.
(On a parenthesis I had a bitter laugh while leveling when the RK's dmg numbers matched my lvl-capped, fully geared guardian's dmg numbers...RK lvl was about 60-62, if memory serves....)
With my RK I will have 3 possible ways to join...
As I would with a captain, a champ, a .....
But I still love my GRD and prefer to play with him.
That is why I ask for changes in OP.
Just to be able to play with my Guard even when I'm not the tank. (and I do not mean solo )
In any case if nothing changes in OP style I would vote to change its name to UNDERPOWER and be done with it...
Wow i can see someone got up on the wrong side of the bed. Well to answer your questions with out insulting you as you have tried to do to me. Riddermark is pretty much over run with champs as i said. Second it takes about 2 weeks to lvl a second toon to cap so don't try to make it sound impossible. I asked just to see what people would say in global on riddermark about increasing guards DPS and they thought i was trolling because its so ridiculous , doesn't that say something to you ? As for telling me I'm making things up you can say what ever you like your allowed to have an opinion just like me, I how ever will not insult you because of yours but the truth remains the same. Guards are fine the way they are and adding a massive increase in damage with kill the class for me and alot of others. Oh by the way i run 95 % pug raids so most of the time i do not even know the people , OP or not they don't turn me down.
Wow i can see someone got up on the wrong side of the bed. Well to answer your questions with out insulting you as you have tried to do to me. Riddermark is pretty much over run with champs as i said. Second it takes about 2 weeks to lvl a second toon to cap so don't try to make it sound impossible. I asked just to see what people would say in global on riddermark about increasing guards DPS and they thought i was trolling because its so ridiculous , doesn't that say something to you ? As for telling me I'm making things up you can say what ever you like your allowed to have an opinion just like me, I how ever will not insult you because of yours but the truth remains the same. Guards are fine the way they are and adding a massive increase in damage with kill the class for me and alot of others. Oh by the way i run 95 % pug raids so most of the time i do not even know the people , OP or not they don't turn me down.
///2 weeks?????????????///what about traits weapons gear virtues???? 2 weekssss?? do we sleep????
///2 weeks?????????????///what about traits weapons gear virtues???? 2 weekssss?? do we sleep????
Of course i sleep LOL . and yes that is using the methods that are in many of the leveling guides out. Get to 50 on the starter areas and skirms and then hop on the epic quest line. Of course i don't bother with gear until im capped like most people but yes i done it in a couple weeks. There are people that do it in a week .....or at least thats what they claim. Virtues aren't to bad if you use the guides you can usually work on multiple deeds in the same area.
///2 weeks?????????????///what about traits weapons gear virtues???? 2 weekssss?? do we sleep????
Originally Posted by Depher
Of course i sleep LOL . and yes that is using the methods that are in many of the leveling guides out. Get to 50 on the starter areas and skirms and then hop on the epic quest line. Of course i don't bother with gear until im capped like most people but yes i done it in a couple weeks. There are people that do it in a week .....or at least thats what they claim. Virtues aren't to bad if you use the guides you can usually work on multiple deeds in the same area.
That is quite doable, I agree. I would never do it myself, but have seen it being done. A guy in our kin leveled a toon from lvl 1 to 75 (ToO raid ready, with gear, traits,...everything) in less than 2 weeks (/played). In RL that is 2weeks to 4 months depending on how much time you spend playing each day. As far as I know he did not use any methods. That could speed up leveling even more.
But as I said I would not do that. I prefer to see it (the game) from a very different angle...
But that is a matter of personal opinion.
Btw depher sorry if my previous post seemed "personal". I did not mean it that way. Just took some of your lines and one from ImaDecoy, for the reason that those lines are quite characteristic to a view that I have seen some people share.
Also this :
"I think that most of those few, never bothered with OP, never liked it, and now that there is a possibility that with some changes it will be actually worth it, are too lazy to learn to play using OP style. How about that ?"
was not meant as an actual opinion but as an example that anyone can say things about other people's game-play, but in reality you can never know if the other guy is good or bad, workaholic or lazy, etc, unless you actually see him/her in action.
Sorry if it was misunderstood, english is not my native language, and maybe sometimes I fail to express exactly what I mean clearly enough.
Wow you guys make me embarrassed to admit I play a guardian.. ffs quit your crying.
Any tank who has played since SoA can tell you the Guardian is far better off than it ever has been.. and the changes that has brought it here have come from feedback from the players to the devs. Just because the dev is NOT READY to divulge the information you want NOW doesnt mean your being ignored.. he stated he would rather wait until the changes are final before he tells us that something might get changed to have it not and open a new can of your complaining.
Lets look at logic here... the original fellowship in this game was a guardian, minstrel, burglar, hunter, lore master, captain and champion... All these classes had a specific role to fill in the game.
Guard - Tank
Champ - melee dps
Captain - Support heals
Lore Master - Support CC
Hunter - Ranged dps
Burglar - CC/melee dps
Minstrel - Healer
As someone who has played a guardian since the game launch.. I know the reason I made the class.. to TANK!!! I made a hunter to dps... not to tank.... I made a captain to be support.. not for dps or tanking.. I made a lore master to support cc.. not to tank or heal or dps... All of these classes are very effective with their role.
I play my tank in ToO t2 raids on a weekly basis.. and also in the moors in pvp... and I have to say the class is perfect in my opinion. I can mitigate more dmg than any other class... I can deal a significant enough dps to 1v1 just about any creep on our server and I have the ability to heal myself quite a bit in a short period of time (burst).
If you have the Draigoch 5pc bonus... switch to it.. use Warriors Fortitude, Deep Breathe and use it again.. there is 6k in burst healing.. not to mention CaB for a few hundred everytime its off cd.... Got the LLG Jewelry set? There is a 2k bubble with 2k heal.... not to mention double pledge and whatever racial skill you may have... ie man heal, eldars grace.
In my opinion the majority of complaining about this class needing worked on or changed is by people who are to lazy to roll another toon and level it for that specific purpose.
For those saying the devs have a responsibility to acknowledge them as a consumer.. you obviously have no concept of economics... this game is large.. your measly 15 dollars a month will not break the company.. their obligation is to their investors to provide a quality gaming experience that brings in money. Not to you.
Sure it would be nice if the devs gave more information.... but truth is that its a game still being developed... changes being discussed and thought out.. and no company is going to give you specifics on any changes they are making to their product until its a done deal.
Someone compared it to buying a car at a dealership... totally off based... the car is sitting there, already made.. finished and ready to be sold and driven... if it was still in development, the dealer would simply tell you the same thing.. when the final information on changes, specs and what not are complete.. you will get your answers. You bashing the dev for being tight lipped is downright childish and disrespectful.... id advise against it.
The class is not broken.. all my skills work just fine... the playing experience is that of no other class. The effectiveness of tanking is bar none better than any game ive ever played. We are not a dps class.. but even as we stand now.. I can fully gear out might and phys mastery, run redline and op and put out 1300 sustainable dps in fights, which is enough to qualify for an off dps class.... and more dps than most redlined captains will put out.
So Devs.. please dont fix anything with my class, dont make any changes to make it more ez mode.. and leave my dps alone.. its fine right where it is.
Thanks
Aigs
THIS! If you are unable to play your guardian properly, then go roll another class. As simple as that.
Menko,
Who are you to come here and tell this community we do not know how to play our class and to go roll something else? I do not normally do this but I WILL tell you what experience I bring:
I was the 4th Guard on my server to tank the Rog successfully.
I have done nearly every end game skirm and ALL end game raid content on my guard at level. (ToO everything but Saruman himself T2)
I have done the same with a Hunter, Champ and Cappy.
I have tanked every 3 and 6 man instance on a CHAMP.
I have gone as dps Guard for same and it was MUCH harder for our groups. (could be my skill as OP guard admittedly)
I have been playing since 2007 where there was no OP stance.
I parse actual NUMBERS and DATA and look at other's parses and what they have to say about the class using reason and logic.
I admit that with all my knowledge and skill I can and should learn from others experience and that even with 2 weeks played someone may have knowledge everyone else missed, including me.
That being said, here is what I have to say to you:
OP stance provides even the best geared Guards that have built to this end about 2/3 the dps of a Champ and less than 1/2 the dps compared to top dps classes equally geared.
Champs can tank 99.9% of the current content.
IN SnB Guards parse such low dps that Burgs and Cappy's provide more for their group with marks alone than we do in dps.
Asking for these numbers to be just a little bit closer to others dps is not asking for anything more than what Turbine says we are supposed to be able to do in our secondary role as dps.
What we are asking for is the same treatment for our secondary role as other classes have for theirs. In fact, most here are asking for much less than that.
So if you, or others, disagree with us, please post something we can discuss, like dps parses, or useful stats, instead of attacking our skill and knowledge when you have yet to establish yours.
I can't say i've been playing so long as you have, nor that I have that many characters as you have. Only have my guard , well I had a few but stopped playing them. So I am focusing on my guard only for fairly 2 years now. How I look at the OP stance is simple; It's a secondary roll for a guradian, to be an off dps or something. I have been playing in OP sometimes in 6manners and been to ettens a few times and I wasn't dissapointed of what I could do in OP with stacked might and phys mastery, it is pretty nice dps, but still people need to understand that a guardian is not a dps class and it's the right thing that he doesn't does that much dps as a pure dps class should do. I've come across a post of a guy saying he can get 1300 constant dps single target on guard. A normal champ get's that, a a bad champ get's even less, so It's pretty damn good for a guardian to be able to get that high. Don't see anything wrong, and sorry for my bad attitude but i get all worked up when I see loads and loads of guardians complaining about dps, sure it could be better sometimes but hey it's a tanking class. And a tanking class should stick to tanking, at least that's my explanation of a tank class And about champ tanking, well champ can tank but it can't tank as good as a guard or warden can. Guard can dps but it can't dps as good as a champ.
*about filling in the secondary roll succesfuly , well some classes fill that 2nd roll better than others, not much you can say. Turbine obviously feels that it's fine the way it is, for now at least. And until they change their minds, it will stay that way I'm afraid
it's the purpose to provide improvements to get our 2nd role better and more in line. And turbine thinks it's fine ofc, as long as you pay they're fine with it, hardly a solid argument :P
Overall dps on grd is a joke. but mainly due to the power. I wouldn't even dare to take my grd in a run atm in op stance, cause I don't contribute. Mainly because of the power issues, full bar drained just in seconds and don't get me started about the ettenmoors where creeps just ignore me.. all they do is throw a power drain and thats it. Too hard to kill, dps not high enough to be of any pain and with power gone what is left is just... well... something to be ignored. I'm wondering how you deal with power if you go full out since in most instances its needed? I mean, look at too where it's a dps race.. I know the power return skills, but they provide nowhere near enough to get it sustained while going full out. Imo if that would be changed I'd be happy. Or keep power as it is and just give us burst dps numbers, 10k a hit for example...
You could trait for catch a breath to restore some additional power, but then again it would be useless as you would have to force a block event if you would be in OP... Well you just have to eat ICPR food and get some additional power then i guess :P
Order in melee dps should stay in line guard-cappy-warden-burg-champ from lowest dps to highest. Why guard on the end? I think developers think that guard in OP is not about pure dps, maybe they want to have OP guard as some kind of damaging offtank, that can hold threat and clean "smaller mobs" around without putting healers in difficult situations.
In my oppinion, guards need a bit more threat leaching skills, and they are fine.
Wardens are fine, they can do any content in game, but ofc they are advanced class, and thats why there is harder to find a good warden tank
Champs are fine, maybe they need to improve ardour and aoe stuff, but rest is ok, maybe they have too much "oh &&&&" buttons
etc.
Classes that need to get attention is hunter and loremaster (blue line), rest of the classes are ok. Every class has its role, you cant expect to get everything in some classes.
it's the purpose to provide improvements to get our 2nd role better and more in line. And turbine thinks it's fine ofc, as long as you pay they're fine with it, hardly a solid argument :P
Overall dps on grd is a joke. but mainly due to the power. I wouldn't even dare to take my grd in a run atm in op stance, cause I don't contribute. Mainly because of the power issues, full bar drained just in seconds and don't get me started about the ettenmoors where creeps just ignore me.. all they do is throw a power drain and thats it. Too hard to kill, dps not high enough to be of any pain and with power gone what is left is just... well... something to be ignored. I'm wondering how you deal with power if you go full out since in most instances its needed? I mean, look at too where it's a dps race.. I know the power return skills, but they provide nowhere near enough to get it sustained while going full out. Imo if that would be changed I'd be happy. Or keep power as it is and just give us burst dps numbers, 10k a hit for example...
Originally Posted by Menko
You could trait for catch a breath to restore some additional power, but then again it would be useless as you would have to force a block event if you would be in OP... Well you just have to eat ICPR food and get some additional power then i guess :P
Trait controlled breathing, brave heart, you can use CaB on a critical with force opening for power restoration, 3 pieces of ToO OP armor help a lot as well, so does the wyrmscale protector's cloak, OP-cost legacy is a must ofc, I also trait mercy or compassion for when I'm often on/off combat. All that and you can get 3-4mins before running out (incl. pot use), when not with LM.
Originally Posted by Iluvatardd
Every class has its role, you cant expect to get everything in some classes.
It is the secondary role we discuss about...
I don't think that asking for a viable second role at current time when other classes have 2-3 roles is asking much, let alone "expecting to get everything"....
Who says that our secondary role has to be dps based ? have you taken the time to learn and play in OP ? A well played guard in OP can make a huge difference in a group. I see people in here claiming that they are turned down all the time but i honestly play in both modes ( tank/ OP ) and have always been welcome. I rolled a Guard knowing that the main focus of the class is defense. I didn't and still don't expect to be doing large amounts of damage. If you want the damage of a dps class play a dps class its simple. Guards will never have that ability it isn't their role to fill. The game is based on groups and guards bring what they are supposed to just like the rest of the classes bring what they are supposed to.
I spend a good bit of time in the moors on my guard.. and yes it is true that most creeps wont bother attacking you because you are harder to kill.. high mitigations... and if S&B high bpe as well.. but I rarely use S&B in the moors unless im grouped and need to provide a shield wall.
I primarily run in OP and I have absolutely no problem killing any creep I encounter 1v1. As for Power.. I rarely run out.. Using the legacy for power cost... and proper use of your skills you can manage to maintain your power for more than 5 minutes. I do use power pots from the moors, I also use take to heart.. traited CAB and Ignore the Pain are a great combination.. not to mention there are other classes that will be able to Block.. so putting your protection on them will allow you to utilize their blocks to use your reactives.
Proper timing of your power leech also helps.. using it when only one target is around will net you least amount of gains.. but popping a timely pledge.. and charging into the middle of creep raid then using it will almost always refill your power bar completely.
Someone mentioned champs dps being sustained at 2k in raids.. which is easily doable with all the buffs the group will have... As a guard I can maintain 1300 dps without being in a raid.. So I would assumed with full buffs I could improve that above 1500 dps.
OverPower was a gift from turbine to help guards with leveling.. while we could rush into an orc camp and pull 5+ orcs and live.. it would take us forever to kill them. This is no longer the case... the improvement to our dps came at the cost of some of our defenses.. no longer able to block.. reduced evade. This makes sense, especially when you look at champs, who run in fervor for the additional dmg.. at the cost of no BPE... when they could run Glory and live much longer, but do less dmg.
The class is very balanced, the majority of suggestions ive read here will ruin that balance. Their are various armour sets that will give you the bonuses to improve... such as the pvp set that makes stagger apply its effect regardless of positional or crit.. this is very useful in raids as it slows attack speed (bosses) and slows movement speed (trash being kited such as wargs or haulers in ToO).
Im not saying that people are to lazy to gear up properly and learn the little tricks that the top guards use (primarily those who are telling you all the class is fine). Gearing up is not hard to do.. it just takes time and a little effort.. while going the extra mile to get the little bit that is available requires more effort. Ive inspected alot of the guards here posting about changes needed.. and am sorry to say that alot of you are very under geared. And this is probably why you are asking for improvements, which re-enforces what I said about people not being willing to put in the time and wanting it just made easier for them.
also a suggestion to those of you running out of power so fast.. stop using sweeping cut so much.. its rewards are not worth the cost in power.
Poster of Note Online status:
Reputation:
Senior Member Online status:
Reputation:
Originally Posted by Bhoris_they_spider
Poster of Note Online status:
Member Online status:
Senior Member Online status:
Senior Member Online status:
Member Online status:
)
. and yes that is using the methods that are in many of the leveling guides out. Get to 50 on the starter areas and skirms and then hop on the epic quest line. Of course i don't bother with gear until im capped like most people but yes i done it in a couple weeks. There are people that do it in a week .....or at least thats what they claim. Virtues aren't to bad if you use the guides you can usually work on multiple deeds in the same area.
Junior Member Online status:
Century Member Online status:
Senior Member Online status:
Reply With Quote
Posting Permissions
