Thread: Graalx2 reveals massive plans for Guardian class in detailed and honest interview!

From the launch of LOTRO, a shield has been the heart and soul of the Guardian class. The symbol for the Guardian is the shield. The Guardian's class book is the shield maiden's song. The majority of skills, traits, etc. are SnB based. (Some of you can remember the debate pre-Moria on the legendary class items and the Guardian's classes disappointment in receiving a belt and not a shield.)

It wasn't until later in SoA that because of the complaints of slow leveling and the lack of dps compared to other classes, that Guardians were given the OP stance and the use of two handers. (Why the developers went with a champ like two hander build and didn't improve the parry stance to make it into a dps shield build I can only chalk it up to the lack of creativity and laziness.)

It wasn't until much, much, later (when they nerfed the champ's survivability) that the OP stance Moors Guardians became a fad. Due to balancing problems, the word got out that OP stance Guards were an over powered class in the Moors. In flocked a whole group that had no interest in the Guards shield based mechanics (which has never really had a solid design for pvp), but were more interested in an unkillable champ like character.

This then carried over to the PVE side of LOTRO, where Guardians wanted to and did tank in the OP stance. This gave rise to full time OP stance Guards (which to me looked and played like a champ. Thankfully changes in the game play mechanics has caused OP stance tanking Guard to go by the wayside.)

With the other LOTRO developers using a cookie cutter format, where all classes can mimic all other classes, lets hope that Graalx2 sticks to the soul of the Guardian class. That soul is and always should be the shield, whether it is used for tanking or for dps.

Originally Posted by Jatayu

This then carried over to the PVE side of LOTRO...

This is a very touching message, but there is too many generalization in your story. I am mostly a casual, playing in a kinship with a mix of hardcore players and casuals. I do not PvP with my guard, and yet I would love to see more importance for guards in raids when there is already one or two other tanks. It is now the second time that I bring an alt to the maximum level, to have a viable switch toon when there are too many guards online on raid nights. The first was a hunter, who joined in BG and OD, and now I leveled up a champion to run ToO. This is time taken from my guard, because I feel useless and redundant when there are too many guards in a raid. I had a lot of time to work on my guard OP build, and have a full bag of objects to switch on when going from tank to DPS. But even with all these efforts, my champion was preferred as soon as he hit 75 to run when we are three guards.

Playing a champion is a nice change, but I would prefer a viable second role for guards. Because my guard is my main, because I spent ages levelling all his virtues, and because I don't want to play two different toons. This has nothing to do with a temporary edge in PvP for OP guards. Saying that tanks are only designed for tanking is like wearing blinders. Get the blinders off and look around, the world has changed.

Originally Posted by Maelendil

This is a very touching message, but there is too many generalization in your story. I am mostly a casual, playing in a kinship with a mix of hardcore players and casuals. I do not PvP with my guard, and yet I would love to see more importance for guards in raids when there is already one or two other tanks. It is now the second time that I bring an alt to the maximum level, to have a viable switch toon when there are too many guards online on raid nights. The first was a hunter, who joined in BG and OD, and now I leveled up a champion to run ToO. This is time taken from my guard, because I feel useless and redundant when there are too many guards in a raid. I had a lot of time to work on my guard OP build, and have a full bag of objects to switch on when going from tank to DPS. But even with all these efforts, my champion was preferred as soon as he hit 75 to run when we are three guards.Playing a champion is a nice change, but I would prefer a viable second role for guards. Because my guard is my main, because I spent ages levelling all his virtues, and because I don't want to play two different toons. This has nothing to do with a temporary edge in PvP for OP guards. Saying that tanks are only designed for tanking is like wearing blinders. Get the blinders off and look around, the world has changed.

The forums are always a funny place and you can never tell if your message is coming across because of the hazard of the reader seeing what they want to see, and not seeing your message.

So, I guess I should clarify my position, which is:

Yes, Guardians need a secondary role, other than just fulfilling a tanking role.
Yes, Guardians need a dps build that is recognized by the other classes as viable.
Yes, Guardians need a PVP build that is useful for the Moors.

But Guard should fullfill these roles using the game play mechanic it was designed for, the shield.

Why does LOTRO have to have three heavy armor classes that use basically the same two handed weapon animation now? Back in SoA days, champs mostly dual wielded, now most use a two hander. Captains had the Halbert, but now have moved to swords or axes. To dps, Guardian have to use a two handed weapon. Why do we all have to look and play the same.

If a champ or captain can take on a tanking role without a shield, then why can't a Guard take on a non-tanking role with a shield.

I am not sure why the developer want to homogenize all the classes, but it is sad that we are heading in that direction.

Dps stance with shield.... my SECRET DREAM!

Love it ... pls do (6k damage in your face with shield smash is all that i want!)

Originally Posted by ShotgunStalker

You roll a class for a reason. MMOs would be lame if all classes could do the same stuff equally good.

It would be like choosing a class just because they have stuff that look better, lol.

Maybe stay away from GW2. All classes are different but equal. They don't even have pre defined roles !

Originally Posted by Jatayu

But Guard should fullfill these roles using the game play mechanic it was designed for, the shield.

Why does LOTRO have to have three heavy armor classes that use basically the same two handed weapon animation now? Back in SoA days, champs mostly dual wielded, now most use a two hander. Captains had the Halbert, but now have moved to swords or axes. To dps, Guardian have to use a two handed weapon. Why do we all have to look and play the same.

This. But if something like this happened, I'd be VERY surprised. I'd still be surprised if they allowed us to use OP and a shield again.

Originally Posted by danno8

Maybe stay away from GW2. All classes are different but equal. They don't even have pre defined roles !

Roles in GW2 are very different from your typical MMO (as LOTRO), and it is amazing how different the 8 professions play. And all roles are needed for almost any content. Tanks in LOTRO, save from the very end game, are barelly needed at all.

Originally Posted by CrusaderOfMetal

...Tanks in LOTRO, save from the very end game, are barelly needed at all.

This can be said of any class in this game.

Originally Posted by Jeffor

This can be said of any class in this game.

Classes are different from roles, but I get your point. I, for one, think that not needing a specific class or even a role is awesome. But currently, from the three roles, tanks are the only ones you can do something without and still have fun.

On a side note... do I miss the absorption/heal equipment of late Mirkwood! Was easily the most fun I had in LOTRO. Pulling the entire 1st floor of Fil-gashan and seeing the decrepit engine explode into tiny pieces with the huge amount of orcses was epic. Now almost everything is a mad DPS race.

I and many more don't do end game raids, and for that content a tank is pretty much a little safer way of doing things.

Originally Posted by Bhoris_they_spider

Q20: ‎@Graalx2: Got any awesome plans for us Guardians? - Ian Panzer
A: Yes. - Graalx2

*edit* Taken from: http://www.lotro.com/gameinfo/featur...aa-june-1-2012

Originally Posted by Graalx2

Hey! I answered the question asked and the quote is 'awesome plans' not 'massive plans'.

No, you aren't getting a complete class re-write. I have said before and I'll say again that there is nothing wrong with Guardians in their primary role.

Yes, you will be getting more attention than previously but I don't want to discuss the changes now as they are still in the planning stage. I know exactly what happens when a dev posts something that turns out not to be reflected in the actual game no matter how many times we say that things are subject to change. I could mention that we are going make some changes to [redacted*] [redact], but that would just lead to more questions.

Really? Just really? We can tell you what changes are needed and yes most aren't even very big. CaB boost to put it somehwere on par with a champions 2 bubbles of several thousand morale or a Warden's massive self heals. Whether you 'want' to discuss changes or not is irrelevant. You SHOULD discuss them with us so you can get our feedback on it. I mean, I know having godlike powers and all and not having to answer to your followers is a bit heady but this isn't about what you want. its about what the players want/need/like. Can guards tank well. Most certainly but it doesn't mean they don't need some tweaks and some adjustment and your off handed indifference to us guardians is insulting. I'm sorry we're not good enough to hear your thoughts on where you want to take guardians but we are after all, just the players playing your 'creation'.

There is already a severe shortage of tanks. Might even be more in need than healers at this point as you listen to GLFF and LFF channels and nearly everyone who is LFF always says...'need tank'. You, Graal, need to give more people more reasons to play tanks. Not just toss out...you're fine whenver you are questioned about the state of guardians. Being a dev isn't about being too thin-skinned to interact with your player base or afraid of being questioned. That's how the best ideas are gained. Graal, you don't have the end all, be all best ideas about tankdom. Sorry. Valuable ideas, insights and real game experience are what will make the guard better and you should be actively seeking out us experienced guards in order to make the improvements WE believe are needed to make our class top notch. Even if you play around in LOTRO on a guard, I'm certain that many guardians dwarf your playtime and thus real game experience. Use that to make things better instead of insulating you up in your ivory tower and looking down on us mere peons!

Originally Posted by doubles84

Glad you spoke more on here about this (even though what you spoke here was meaningless), because I was set to leave the game because of your one word reply on the Q and A in regards to this class. I felt and still feel disrespected as a costumer by this. Perhaps I am taking this a bit personally, but that is my prerogative as a paying customer.

This! Guardian players have largely been completely ignored by Graal. Treated with indifference and disdain. Ignored and left outside looking in. I'm sorry I feel pretty insulted and am offended at the way we're being treated by someone who's supposed to be making us want to play our guardians!

As far as i'm aware... every mmo has a shortage of tanks. It's because people don't enjoy tanking... Or are afraid of screwing up... probably moreso the latter.

At this point, there are 4 classes that can tank, guardian not getting an update has nothing to do with the shortage in my opinion.

The guardian doesn't really need an update though... People whine about Overpower but while we get 5 morale / vitality our dps will never be as good as a champ; and right now we're about equal with captains. I mean who really rolled a guardian to dps anyway...

As far as tanking... Wardens were worthless for like 6 months. They are making a comeback now, but 9/10 wardens are still terrible.
The classes that got major updates really needed them.

I'm not trying to suck up to graalx, it'd be nice to know what changes are in mind... But believe it or not he posts a lot more than the captain dev.

Originally Posted by DuneBug

As far as i'm aware... every mmo has a shortage of tanks. It's because people don't enjoy tanking... Or are afraid of screwing up... probably moreso the latter.

At this point, there are 4 classes that can tank, guardian not getting an update has nothing to do with the shortage in my opinion.

The guardian doesn't really need an update though... People whine about Overpower but while we get 5 morale / vitality our dps will never be as good as a champ; and right now we're about equal with captains. I mean who really rolled a guardian to dps anyway...

As far as tanking... Wardens were worthless for like 6 months. They are making a comeback now, but 9/10 wardens are still terrible.
The classes that got major updates really needed them.

I'm not trying to suck up to graalx, it'd be nice to know what changes are in mind... But believe it or not he posts a lot more than the captain dev.

tbh, guardian doesn't need a revamp... plz don't.. I remember the starting days of moria were pretty much any lvl1 char could outaggro us... But they do need tweaks. I didn't role guardian for dps, but it should be a viable option imo since tbh, every freakin instance is basicly a dps race... Also the current system sucks where you actually need top notch armour to be able to tank (hits are so massive.....) I mean, T2 the t1 armour is pretty much needed. I should have a choice, currently I can only go for top notch armour since only then I can decently tank without minnie's complaining. I know I'm pushing it and a little bit putting it black/white, but I hope you got the point. I'm more then happy with only 1 role btw like pre-moria (good old days imo :P), but then at least improve it like that I don't need t1 armour before going on t2 runs. Make it more like som: rift-armour is top notch, but still viable options out there... I know I know, won't make as much money... but at this rate they make it a more ###### game every update. And since I only like the guardian class, sure wardens are cool, but still I'm good on grd and I enjoy it. But would be nice it gets tweaked a bit with some pretty great ideas on the forums. Tbh, it's sad how the player class is treated. So many core-players, tanks in their heart and they are all ignored... Graalx2 shouldn't look to much at the politics in europe (or any country for that matter) to get his ppl skills from. I agree with the previous poster for that matter, it's insulting to see... and plz don't give massive or major changes!!! You guys tend to screw them up more often then not. Rather have a nice new update where I can go in and actually enjoy the content without being annoyed on my guard. And please focus more on the instances and make em more insteresting then bigger mobs (most tend to fill up 90% of my screen since the rest is bars etc.) and making em hit harder.. If you want examples of how good design instances work: go back to som and look at CD/Uru and rift. Great examples! Back then tanks were needed and had something to ad to the table. Where also more played em, since they actually bring something to the table :P hence: maybe it's a deadlock: less play tanks, so tanks are being made less usefull... maybe if you made tanking fun/usefull again, then maybe more would play it. But I'm already afraid you've missed that boat totally... Well, could have been on there though, if you had listened to the player base. just saying... soz for ranting... but need to get it of my chest, Graalx2's answer was just the last push I needed :P G, seriously... talk to the tanks and talk with em. I don't consider myself good or experienced... but lots of peeps here are great and highly experienced... listen to them.

Wow, wall-of-text filter is now full. Try using several paragraphs to outline your thoughts so readers don't skip over your post entirely.

Originally Posted by Aineas.

tbh, guardian doesn't need a revamp... plz don't.. I remember the starting days of moria were pretty much any lvl1 char could outaggro us... But they do need tweaks. I didn't role guardian for dps, but it should be a viable option imo since tbh, every freakin instance is basicly a dps race...

I somewhat agree here. It might be nice to get some updates to our DPS line, but something cautious... no major overhaul. Graalx has already indicated the upcoming guardian changes will not be some kind of sweeping revamp, which is smart in my opinion. Perhaps a sign he's been listening to you after all?

Originally Posted by Aineas.

Also the current system sucks where you actually need top notch armour to be able to tank (hits are so massive.....) I mean, T2 the t1 armour is pretty much needed. I should have a choice, currently I can only go for top notch armour since only then I can decently tank without minnie's complaining. I know I'm pushing it and a little bit putting it black/white, but I hope you got the point
I'm more then happy with only 1 role btw like pre-moria (good old days imo :P), but then at least improve it like that I don't need t1 armour before going on t2 runs. Make it more like som: rift-armour is top notch, but still viable options out there... I know I know, won't make as much money... but at this rate they make it a more ###### game every update.

Not sure I understand the complaint here. Players absolutely should have to gear up for ToO T2(c). Outside of that you have many options available for gear that are perfectly viable for tanking. It should also be noted the ToO armor sets are quite accessible anyway. I enjoy having a selectable difficulty level to the raids/instances. The gear check should be commensurate, as it is today.

Originally Posted by Aineas.

And since I only like the guardian class, sure wardens are cool, but still I'm good on grd and I enjoy it. But would be nice it gets tweaked a bit with some pretty great ideas on the forums. Tbh, it's sad how the player class is treated. So many core-players, tanks in their heart and they are all ignored... Graalx2 shouldn't look to much at the politics in europe (or any country for that matter) to get his ppl skills from. I agree with the previous poster for that matter, it's insulting to see... and plz don't give massive or major changes!!!

I agree there have been some very good ideas on the forums for guardians. However, just because the devs don't implement them doesn't mean we're being ignored. Odds are they are taking many of them into consideration, and there are likely good reasons they are not included (... yet).

Originally Posted by Aineas.

You guys tend to screw them up more often then not. Rather have a nice new update where I can go in and actually enjoy the content without being annoyed on my guard.

This is too vague to serve you at all. Providing specifics to the devs will go much further in giving them direction on what is working well in the game for you and what isn't.

Originally Posted by Aineas.

And please focus more on the instances and make em more insteresting then bigger mobs (most tend to fill up 90% of my screen since the rest is bars etc.) and making em hit harder.. If you want examples of how good design instances work: go back to som and look at CD/Uru and rift. Great examples! Back then tanks were needed and had something to ad to the table. Where also more played em, since they actually bring something to the table :P hence: maybe it's a deadlock: less play tanks, so tanks are being made less usefull... maybe if you made tanking fun/usefull again, then maybe more would play it. But I'm already afraid you've missed that boat totally... Well, could have been on there though, if you had listened to the player base. just saying...

You lost me again here. You want tanks to be needed, but you want the mobs to hit softer? Since RoI released I have felt VERY needed for groups due to the changes in stats, caps, and mob damage output; I feel I contribute highly to groups. What specifically was it you were doing in CD/Uru/Rift that you are no longer doing? The current encounters are more complex/interesting than the CD/Uru/Rift encounters. I'd be disappointed if they went back to that level of simplicity in their encounter design.

Originally Posted by Aineas.

soz for ranting... but need to get it of my chest, Graalx2's answer was just the last push I needed :P G, seriously... talk to the tanks and talk with em. I don't consider myself good or experienced... but lots of peeps here are great and highly experienced... listen to them.

We don't know exactly how much Graalx gleans from the forums, and perhaps that's what many of us are really looking for is just some confirmation we've been heard. But to reiterate, just because our ideas are not what Turbine chooses to implement does not mean we've been ignored. I'm willing to bet many of our ideas have actually been heavily considered.

Sure Turbine, et all, don't have to implement anything we players suggest. However, it would be nice to not be met with silence, one-word answers and/or completey useless answers. There was a thread posted here awhile ago where we tried to have SOME kind of interaction with our dev. I think there was one response in 3+ months. To be THAT out of touch with your players is simply stupid, silly and irresponsible on the part of the dev for whatever class. We, as players, want to feel included. We want to feel like we have some of input into the character we put hours and hours and hours (think my guard is coming up on 4months of game time). This is an investment we've chosen to put into the toon because we liked it. It would be nice to get some validation from the dev of our class that he finds what we have to say valuable.

Originally Posted by lestat86

Sure Turbine, et all, don't have to implement anything we players suggest. However, it would be nice to not be met with silence, one-word answers and/or completey useless answers.

In my last paragraph I tried to convey that perhaps all Graalx has to do is provide a little more acknowledgement the players are being heard. On that point I think we're in "violent agreement."

The following seems a little extreme to me, and probably undermines the goal of interacting with the developers:

Originally Posted by lestat86

To be THAT out of touch with your players is simply stupid, silly and irresponsible on the part of the dev for whatever class.

Originally Posted by lestat86

Really? Just really? We can tell you what changes are needed and yes most aren't even very big. CaB boost to put it somehwere on par with a champions 2 bubbles of several thousand morale or a Warden's massive self heals.

Asking for these two things is hardly "aren't very big" changes. Guardians are still the top tank in the game. Period. Giving Guards either of these two things would make them very OP. Guards don't really need extra help with tanking I don't believe.

Tweaks and secondary roles are one thing. Turning the Guardian into a Wuardion is another entirely.

Originally Posted by Graalx2

Hey! I answered the question asked and the quote is 'awesome plans' not 'massive plans'.

No, you aren't getting a complete class re-write. I have said before and I'll say again that there is nothing wrong with Guardians in their primary role.

Yes, you will be getting more attention than previously but I don't want to discuss the changes now as they are still in the planning stage. I know exactly what happens when a dev posts something that turns out not to be reflected in the actual game no matter how many times we say that things are subject to change. I could mention that we are going make some changes to [redacted*] [redact], but that would just lead to more questions.

No need to be agitated, if you wouldn't neglect us, we wouldn't be upset.

...okay that's a blatant falsehood. I forgot that this is a gamer community and nothing will ever be good enough for everyone. But still, ethically, as we are you customer-base you have an obligation to... oblige us.

Wanting information about a product is a part of basic commerce; we're shopping for Guardians, you're selling Guardians. We're interested but we have some questions about the product and have some requested/additional features we'd like to know about. If I went to buy a car and asked about specs and the dealer blew up because I had the gal to ask questions or be shopping for additional features, Or some one who buys the car and then calls to have maintenance done, ask about a new model or has some questions about features and never gets some one to answer the phone or call back. I think any one in the position of the buyer would be upset. It's a fair point, is it not?

Since we're on the topic, I have a shopping list I would like to talk to you about

1: Scaled up CaB
2: Reduced CD on Shield Taunt
3: Increased threat transfer and range of effect on Whirling Retaliation
4: Remove Threat Stance and distribute threat to Guardians Defense
5: Replace Threat Stance with a 5 target AOE Stun/Threat over Time on a 10m CD
6: Remove Parry Stance (because, LOL)
7: 100% Bleed chance for Hemorrhage
8: Cosmetic Shield Slots

I think if you can handle this list, we'll be a lot less grumpy and less critical of your performance.

Originally Posted by clappi

Wow, wall-of-text filter is now full. Try using several paragraphs to outline your thoughts so readers don't skip over your post entirely.





You lost me again here. You want tanks to be needed, but you want the mobs to hit softer? Since RoI released I have felt VERY needed for groups due to the changes in stats, caps, and mob damage output; I feel I contribute highly to groups. What specifically was it you were doing in CD/Uru/Rift that you are no longer doing? The current encounters are more complex/interesting than the CD/Uru/Rift encounters. I'd be disappointed if they went back to that level of simplicity in their encounter design.





We don't know exactly how much Graalx gleans from the forums, and perhaps that's what many of us are really looking for is just some confirmation we've been heard. But to reiterate, just because our ideas are not what Turbine chooses to implement does not mean we've been ignored. I'm willing to bet many of our ideas have actually been heavily considered.

1. sorry for the wall of text, I'm not a writer and not native english :P Again sorry, will work on that.

2. Kinda referring to the dynamics. The only reason why we are now needed is due to the insane hits. maybe I'm too much old-school, but during soa all had to play their class roles in order to win. maybe indeed points are a bit messed up, but just referring to the dynamic of how to make it harder lotro-style: make em hit harder and make power consumptions higher. Thats it... has nothing to do with smart pulling etc. anymore.

Also, due to the high hits I miss the times of old days where you can run in as a guard, pull all and have a blast. Now it's more single target aggro due to the high hits which is just meh, anyone should be able to do that. If you have more then 2 mobs on you, you die. Would rather see it change to rift-system: 1 can tank mobs, 1 boss (or even both tbh :P did that on some occasions). But maybe I'm just a tank that has a program running: take aggro of all, if you not you suck :P in my mind :P

3. Which is basicly what politicians do: might or might not read, but they don't tell you. Why not post a small note as in: I've read it, great idea's and will take em into considerations. During the announcement of the changes grab back to the idea's and write in a paragraph why some made and some don't. At least you show that you are involved. Now we just have to guess which is annoying.

PS: I hope I cleared it up a bit :P soz if I'm still not making sence :P

Originally Posted by Maelendil

They take more crits, and have a lower morale pool (5K less morale roughly). I don't know much yet about aggro gen, but It looks like a champ is more effective tanking T2 shadow than a guard. Which do not really qualify as "inferior".

I was hoping someone might bring that up. Just because they can tank one wing of a raid doesn't make them superior or even equal. I'm sure champs have probably tanked most wings of orthanc by now just for the e-peen, but there's no way they're equal to grd/wrd in Acid or Lightning. Champs are fervor tanking in FnF, but that's just bad design.

Shadow basically screws over guards, since bpe is reduced to 0 we can't pledge during the debuff portion. A warden can hit their 90% Damage reduction, and a champ can use invincible + bubbles. I'm not sure if the intention of the fight was supposed to be a tank swap or just the taunt juggling. But whenever BPE gets disabled guards are going to be inferior since pledge stops working (SO STOP DOING THAT TURBINE). Obviously wardens get hurt too, but they have Defiant Challenge and Never Surrender.

Bukot actually hits fairly soft, aside from that debuff. And even with a 'chank' if you let them get the debuff a few times and they've blown heroics (big 5k bubble, 5m cd) they'll die too. I'm not sure if bukot can be fervor tanked or if crits just own the champs, I'll ask them about it.

Anything that can be fervor-tanked with a reasonable expectation of the champ actually living through it, is basically bad raid design. If bosses don't hit hard enough there's no reason to have a tank in the first place. You can't really blame the class dev's if the raid designers are going to put out cuddly boss mobs.

Originally Posted by Maelendil

Easy: DPS, that will usually make the fight go faster.

I'd vote for more bleeds: make thrust / salt the wound stack up to 3 or 4. Bleed damage is independent of pmast, so we don't get penalized for not stacking might. A lot of other mmo's give tanks stacking armor rends... Not opposed, but kind of uncreative.

Originally Posted by Aineas.

2. Kinda referring to the dynamics. The only reason why we are now needed is due to the insane hits. maybe I'm too much old-school, but during soa all had to play their class roles in order to win. maybe indeed points are a bit messed up, but just referring to the dynamic of how to make it harder lotro-style: make em hit harder and make power consumptions higher. Thats it... has nothing to do with smart pulling etc. anymore.

Still not understanding your point here, or perhaps I just disagree. What dynamics are you missing in the newer content that you had in the older content? Perhaps you're not referring to mob dynamics (their mechanics, abilities, etc) but rather the fight dynamics where the guard can just round everything up? I see no shortage of that in current end-game content, but it's also not all that way and that's fine by me. It would otherwise be a pretty monotonous place.

Originally Posted by Aineas.

Also, due to the high hits I miss the times of old days where you can run in as a guard, pull all and have a blast. Now it's more single target aggro due to the high hits which is just meh, anyone should be able to do that. If you have more then 2 mobs on you, you die. Would rather see it change to rift-system: 1 can tank mobs, 1 boss (or even both tbh :P did that on some occasions). But maybe I'm just a tank that has a program running: take aggro of all, if you not you suck :P in my mind :P

Not sure which content has you down here... perhaps certain pulls in ToO? Most other content is quite "tank-it-all" centric, and those particular ToO pulls were designed specifically to not be tanked by one person (RoF final boss acid spiders are the same way)... to require a higher level of teamwork on the part of the raid... the way it should be. The guard's job is still incredibly important and you shouldn't feel like you're not providing something to the group. Not many classes can say they can tank two acid wing wargs plus a slug/orc or two and pull it off... or both F&F giants plus the grims, but we can make that claim and they gave us the class and the content to prove it.

Originally Posted by Aineas.

3. Which is basicly what politicians do: might or might not read, but they don't tell you. Why not post a small note as in: I've read it, great idea's and will take em into considerations. During the announcement of the changes grab back to the idea's and write in a paragraph why some made and some don't. At least you show that you are involved. Now we just have to guess which is annoying.

The amount of communication with the players may be on the lean side from a player's perspective, but concluding we're being ignored is a total guess at best. Like everyone else here I love hearing from the developers, but let's not go overboard.

i think he misses the old moria/mirkwwod armour , he i had a mix of armour bad than that self healed like crazy.i could tank like 20 mobs at once. also could hold against up to 6 or more creeps for a long time.

so dont mess up.. tanking build for champ is very different from their dps build..

Dps champ:
2K+ might
20%+ crti chance
8-10K max morale buffed
30-40% mitigations
crit defense ~0
inc healing 0-7%
no B/P/E (ofc if use skilll in long cd thei can for 15 sec)

Tank champion:
2K+ Vitality
15-18K max morale buffed
70% mitigation
25% +15% (from bracing attack) inc healing
some parry and evade 10%+
Exalted combatant - auto matic heal in glory when champ is on low morale (on 45 s cd?)
Bracing attack (self heal)
Bubble 1 (sudden defense)
Bubble 2 (True heroics)
Big heal (dire need)
Invincible + 40% mits (if mits reach 100% absorbing dmg), and 20% tact mit, so 90% for tact....

Guardian:
2K+ Vitality
19-23K max morale
70% mitigation
25% inc heal
Decent block 20-30%, good parry around 10%, very bad evade...
B/P/E defense buff (guardians pledge) 3-5min cd
Max morale self buff (warriors heart /fortitude)
self heal (catch a breath)


At all guardscompared to TANK champions isnt far uperior (if superior), champs have less morale, and only a bit less B/P/E, but have a LOT BETTER INC HEALING (they can take up 15% more dmg, no problem for healers), and a lot of survival buffs, so mostly in every danger situation the have one to fire off, guards have not so much, and aside from pledge other survivals arent too good.

So champ can mostly replace a guardian as tank (if played well but, most champs not intrested in tanking). Also guards have very small bunch of situation where they can replace a champ (i think only aoe dmging (sustained) situations, where are 7-10 targets, and guardians can hit near all the same time (thxfullly their+5 target legacy) until champs more target aoe skills have longer cd)

I think there is a fundmental problem with trying to build a secondary dps role for any class. Tanking and healing both suffer from diminishing returns, once you have enough to not wipe extra healing or survivability makes a run easier but only to a certain extent. There is a point where there is so little chance of defeat that the benefit of more healing or tanking ability is unnecessary. On the other hand, more dps will always make a run faster, there is no point where adding more speed to a run isn't beneficial.
This fact leads to a major design challenge in making a secondary dps role viable. While the champ can secondary tank acceptably because he is high enough up the diminishing return curve to not be a disadvantage to the group, a guard dpsing will always noticable slow down the speed at which mobs die and thus the speed at which progress is made. I can't think of a way to work around this problem.
I have instead come to the conclusion that a secondary dps role is impossible. Unless the guard can do as much damage as a champ, there would be a noticeable slow down by taking the secondary class. And if the guard is made to dps as well as the champ then it isn't a secondary role and leaves the champ in a very awkward spot. Fear not though, for there is a possible solution.
Look to the minstrel's dps spec (which is far more viable than ours) and we see that the mini keeps access to her anthems while in warspeech. These buffs are what make up for the reduced damage output. I'm of the opinion that the only way to make a viable dps secondary spec is to focus the set up as support.
Improved overwhelm (I think, tier 2 parry chain) and stagger are both good examples of this. I think the focus of improving OP stance should be to add more of this style of debuff to our skills. We need to give up on damage and bring something else to the fellowship. I'm not entirely sure where to make further improvements, or what buffs/debuffs could be added to our repertoire. But I'd love to move the discussion away from "buff damage" as I don't think that's the solution.

P.S. Because everyone does love damage though, I would love to see OP's +% damage be a boost to "mainhand damage" instead of "outgoing damage" as this would serve double duty of increasing our dps by stacking with phys. mastery more effectively, and possibly be an opening to bring back OP w/shield since the shield skills would not be buffed.

Originally Posted by Bhoris_they_spider

Q20: ‎@Graalx2: Got any awesome plans for us Guardians? - Ian Panzer
A: Yes. - Graalx2

*edit* Taken from: http://www.lotro.com/gameinfo/featur...aa-june-1-2012

A: Yes, scale the same old skills for the new 10 levels, forget to scale some, fix it in the upcoming updates, cut the strength of guards legacies, listen to the community complain, not give a damn, have a cup of tea. - Graalx2

I am happy with the guard class the way it is and have been since I started playing. For me i don't really want to see much change guards are a center piece class for almost ALL groups so i don't see the need to make us into a DPS type clone ie. champs and hunters . Yes a secondary role is nice but has to come with a downside. The downside for guardians being limited DPS. It makes perfect sense if you are being honest about it. I think that if any changes come for us they should be in the form of say being able to inspire our fellowship and raise their hope or maybe being able to get an acorn to your group from anywhere. Yes our DPS is low (mine is a whole 350) but i can still grind down a 75 K mob alone so whats the problem ?

Originally Posted by Depher

Yes our DPS is low (mine is a whole 350) but i can still grind down a 75 K mob alone so whats the problem ?

So can most of other classes.... so what ? How much time does it take YOU to chop a huorn ??
The problem is not only that our DPS sucks, making us slow in solo, imo the problem is that we lack a secondary role in a group.
It's tank or nothing.
I don't think that DPS increase would solve the problem, although it could help big time.
I think that we could have a viable support/DPS role in groups ;
a) Increasing our DPS, NOT as much as pure DPS classes.
b) Upgrading bleed, stagger effect, stun, FM's openings etc
Especially option b) could, if done properly, make us GRDs welcome (while in OP) to a group that already has a tank.
NOT as a pure DPS, but as a decent DPS with lots of other "goodies" to offer in a group.
And by "goodies" I mean stuns, debuffs, conjunctions etc.

If we get a) + b) it would be great: speed up solo experience and have a place in a raid even if there's already a tank there...
For tanking the only thing we need imo is better self healing... nothing else.

P.S. and cosmetic shield slot ftw !!! ;P

Im not sure which server you play on but its not like that on Riddermark. A decent guard in OP does enough damage (900 - 1000 DPS) to be more then welcome as a non tanking role. As for how long it takes me to beat down mobs at 75 k about 4 -5 mins a piece but whoever told you any class can do it was wrong as a matter of fact im mistaken for a warden on a regular basis because i am able to do things that other guards general can't or don't do. I would say to you instead of looking for the developer to make it easier for you learn to use what you have to the fullest you would be surprised .

Agreed i would like to see an improved dps role for OP am not sayin tanks should be able to dps the same as a champ but a secondary role should available to players who want to do better dps on there guard , of course some only want to tank on there tank but others want this option and i cant understand why anybody would be so set against it .

Just give us a skill that increases critical magnitude and ill be happy.

Originally Posted by Depher

Im not sure which server you play on but its not like that on Riddermark. A decent guard in OP does enough damage (900 - 1000 DPS) to be more then welcome as a non tanking role. As for how long it takes me to beat down mobs at 75 k about 4 -5 mins a piece but whoever told you any class can do it was wrong as a matter of fact im mistaken for a warden on a regular basis because i am able to do things that other guards general can't or don't do. I would say to you instead of looking for the developer to make it easier for you learn to use what you have to the fullest you would be surprised .

If your DPS (=damage per second) was 1k, a 75k mob would fall in 75 seconds (=1min 15sec), not 4-5 mins....
if you mean 900-1000 damage per hit, that's something totally different...
About huorns : I've seen beside guards, champs, minies, LMs, RKs, wardens do the huorns solo...
I also do it, just for the income
The point is not to make it "easier", the point is to make it better and to keep up with the rest of the classes...
Even if your DPS was 1k, why would a raid prefer you (if they already have tank(s)) over e.g. another champ or another hunter, that have more than double DPS ?????? As things are now, you have nothing more(DPS-wise) or different(support-wise) to offer to deserve a place in the group, if you are not tanking...
Do not mistake class improvement requests for QQ...

i never said my dmg was 900 -1000 dps I said thats a decent guards output in OP and yes it is accepted in raids many times so much so that we have plenty of guards that never use anything but OP. Whatever server your on where everyone is soloing LL mobs must be a rarity because i am hounded endlessly to group specifically because they can't solo them. Coming onto the forum and asking for guards to have self heals , better dmg ,and stackable bleeds IS asking for them to make it easier. (your basically asking to be made into a warden.) Every class has a downside and you are asking them to change that . There really is nothing wrong with guards i just don't see the point in "fixing" something that isn't broken.

Originally Posted by Depher

i never said my dmg was 900 -1000 dps I said thats a decent guards output in OP and yes it is accepted in raids many times so much so that we have plenty of guards that never use anything but OP. Whatever server your on where everyone is soloing LL mobs must be a rarity because i am hounded endlessly to group specifically because they can't solo them. Coming onto the forum and asking for guards to have self heals , better dmg ,and stackable bleeds IS asking for them to make it easier. (your basically asking to be made into a warden.) Every class has a downside and you are asking them to change that . There really is nothing wrong with guards i just don't see the point in "fixing" something that isn't broken.

We agree to disagree :P
I agree that there's nothing wrong with our tanking side, except (maybe) self heals (that are miserable without galtrev's set).
If our class's downside is that we do not get a secondary role, then OK...
But do not try to convince me that our OP side is fine...
The way I see it the downside in OP is : extraordinary power consumption, lower Vit., lower morale, lower mitigations, no block, lower resist., etc
Now the upside is what ?
It should be greater dps, but how great is greater ?? Does it stand up to everything you sacrifice to get it ???
Imo NO!!!!
If you take a look in hunter or champ forum you will see that even 1k that you say is half of their DPS....

In the " Whatever server your on", which btw is on my signature , not everybody can solo huorns, but have seen more than a few try it successfully.
Also I have seen too many times the following line while asking to join a raid in OP : "We already have a tank"...
People do not even consider that an OP guard is an option.
And, I am sorry to say so, as things are now, I wouldn't either...

What I'd like to see is a viable secondary role for guards. I couldn't care less for DPS or making it easier.
I just want to have a decent sum of abilities (dps AND support - wise) to make it equal to what other classes offer in their secondary roles.

Originally Posted by RvLesh

On the contrary, they need to drop DPS for non-DPS classes. When the non-DPS classes can fill a DPS role, what reason is there to ever roll a DPS class? Why would I want to be a HUN or CHM when I could be a GRD and fill twice as many roles?

Because groups have one ( 1 ) spot for a tank and three to four for DPS. In raids that imbalance is even greater.

Imo MMOs have manouvered themselves into a dead end with DPS stacking infinitely while tanking and healing do not at all once you have enough to beat the raid - this issue is even worse in some other PVE oriented games like Everquest 2. But without revamping pretty much everything about combat, class balance and content it's not gonna change in LotRO anymore and there have to be options for Guardians and Minstrels to be at least somewhat useful in a group if they aren't the primary tank/healer.

Originally Posted by Graalx2

I have said before and I'll say again that there is nothing wrong with Guardians in their primary role

Well said. Couldn't agree more.

Originally Posted by DuneBug

Wardens were worthless for like 6 months

They still are. Try agro swapping with one. Wardens are only there so the powers that be can say there is 'more than 1 class that can tank'. In a raid situation they are a liability.

Originally Posted by DuneBug

9/10 wardens are still terrible

I'd up that to 99/100

And what has been said thousands of times is guards SECONDARY ROLL is lacking.

Here, I will say it again.
Our secondary roll (OP stance) is lacking in dps and has too big of a power cost to maintain the dps we can muster.

And again, I haven't seen anyone coming in and saying our main roll needs work.

Yet all everyone says is "we are fine".

Back before Moria I was hoping that our dps boost was going to be through our shield skills, but Turbine MADE US a 2Hander dps mode (OP stance).
I really like the shield, but it wasn't boosted, 2H was.
I didn't much like it, but that is what we had to work with.
I used it.
I mastered it.
I tanked in it.
And I love the game play of it.
It appears to be here to stay.
But we do need some proper attention to our dps stance.

To be sure, for all of those that insist that all is well: Why exactly have we had, and most likely will again, sweeping changes to the combat system, as well as numerous changes to classes that were perfectly fine from the SoA days?

By not changing some classes and changing others, in time the non changed classes can and will and do fall behind in quality of game play.

I still have yet to see someone say guards need a total revamp, yet many of you seem to think that is what people are asking for.

Learn to read what people are typing, and maybe you can finally see what it is people are talking about.
Just because you only run 3 mans, and things are fine there, does not mean that in a raid things are as they should be.
Breath; that is a blanket statement and a small example, not directed at anyone person, but everyone in general.

Just because someone solos all the time and has no idea how to tank in a group, does not mean that those that group should have the whole "we are fine" thing thrown around so much, from those that don't group.
And vice versa.
Or to be more blunt, the whole Shield guards vs 2H guards.

I have ran it all from open beta to now, and this class needs a few things fixed, to bring us into, and help keep us on par, with other classes.

Sadly, I don't think we will see the small changes we should receive to the things that have been asked for, for a long time now.
The dev thread of what one change would you make to your class will be the proof, many have asked for Cab to be adjusted, but it won't be.
Or to make Hemo, a legandary 5 deep traited trait, into 100% bleed.
And so many other small quality of life/ game play changes.

Wow you guys make me embarrassed to admit I play a guardian.. ffs quit your crying.

Any tank who has played since SoA can tell you the Guardian is far better off than it ever has been.. and the changes that has brought it here have come from feedback from the players to the devs. Just because the dev is NOT READY to divulge the information you want NOW doesnt mean your being ignored.. he stated he would rather wait until the changes are final before he tells us that something might get changed to have it not and open a new can of your complaining.

Lets look at logic here... the original fellowship in this game was a guardian, minstrel, burglar, hunter, lore master, captain and champion... All these classes had a specific role to fill in the game.

Guard - Tank
Champ - melee dps
Captain - Support heals
Lore Master - Support CC
Hunter - Ranged dps
Burglar - CC/melee dps
Minstrel - Healer

As someone who has played a guardian since the game launch.. I know the reason I made the class.. to TANK!!! I made a hunter to dps... not to tank.... I made a captain to be support.. not for dps or tanking.. I made a lore master to support cc.. not to tank or heal or dps... All of these classes are very effective with their role.

I play my tank in ToO t2 raids on a weekly basis.. and also in the moors in pvp... and I have to say the class is perfect in my opinion. I can mitigate more dmg than any other class... I can deal a significant enough dps to 1v1 just about any creep on our server and I have the ability to heal myself quite a bit in a short period of time (burst).

If you have the Draigoch 5pc bonus... switch to it.. use Warriors Fortitude, Deep Breathe and use it again.. there is 6k in burst healing.. not to mention CaB for a few hundred everytime its off cd.... Got the LLG Jewelry set? There is a 2k bubble with 2k heal.... not to mention double pledge and whatever racial skill you may have... ie man heal, eldars grace.

In my opinion the majority of complaining about this class needing worked on or changed is by people who are to lazy to roll another toon and level it for that specific purpose.

For those saying the devs have a responsibility to acknowledge them as a consumer.. you obviously have no concept of economics... this game is large.. your measly 15 dollars a month will not break the company.. their obligation is to their investors to provide a quality gaming experience that brings in money. Not to you.

Sure it would be nice if the devs gave more information.... but truth is that its a game still being developed... changes being discussed and thought out.. and no company is going to give you specifics on any changes they are making to their product until its a done deal.

Someone compared it to buying a car at a dealership... totally off based... the car is sitting there, already made.. finished and ready to be sold and driven... if it was still in development, the dealer would simply tell you the same thing.. when the final information on changes, specs and what not are complete.. you will get your answers. You bashing the dev for being tight lipped is downright childish and disrespectful.... id advise against it.

The class is not broken.. all my skills work just fine... the playing experience is that of no other class. The effectiveness of tanking is bar none better than any game ive ever played. We are not a dps class.. but even as we stand now.. I can fully gear out might and phys mastery, run redline and op and put out 1300 sustainable dps in fights, which is enough to qualify for an off dps class.... and more dps than most redlined captains will put out.

So Devs.. please dont fix anything with my class, dont make any changes to make it more ez mode.. and leave my dps alone.. its fine right where it is.

Thanks

Aigs

Originally Posted by Tennent

Well said. Couldn't agree more.



They still are. Try agro swapping with one. Wardens are only there so the powers that be can say there is 'more than 1 class that can tank'. In a raid situation they are a liability.



I'd up that to 99/100

I aggro swap with a warden all the time in ToO Lightening.... guess he is the 1 out of 100?

Ima,
What a load of poodoo. You don't get it do you? Sure a Guard is great for t2 ToO. That represents less than .1% of content. Did you forget how you got all your gear to be able to get there? You ran countless lesser runs. You ran solo, 3 n 6 man content to get the gear you need to be able to compete at that level right? THAT is 99.9% of the content. And to be able to get that gear would it not be at least OK to have a chance to fill a role other than tank if a group already had one? What is being asked for is a viable 2nd role that will be USEFUL to a group if they already have a tank.
Come on, look at this using your "I am not raid geared yet" eyes. Your answer to these guys is, "use your Draig 5 set bonus". Do you understand they have to get that first right? Do you hear what it is you just said? Do you remember how hard it was to level your guard before OP? I have not forgotten how it was to level to 50 on a guard compared to dps classes way back when. What is being asked for is a useful role when tank slot is filled. Not everyone wants to role 6 different classes.

As to you doing more dps than a red traited Cappy: Again your logic fails. Cappy marks/buffs for the win. At 1300 dps you will easily do less for your group when Cappy has his dps marks up for damage not to mention buffs to str/agi. from banners, IDOME etc. It is this type of reasoning that shows why you and I disagree. And btw 1300 is pretty sad compared to real dps classes, not even close enough for most people to consider adding you into their group unless they know you.

Please, if you want to come here and throw how great you are in our face, show a little more skill in your arguments. This community has some very smart Guards, I suggest listening more and posting only after you have given some thought to those that disagree with what you "feel".

Originally Posted by JeffF611

Ima,
What a load of poodoo. You don't get it do you? Sure a Guard is great for t2 ToO. That represents less than .1% of content. Did you forget how you got all your gear to be able to get there? You ran countless lesser runs. You ran solo, 3 n 6 man content to get the gear you need to be able to compete at that level right? THAT is 99.9% of the content. And to be able to get that gear would it not be at least OK to have a chance to fill a role other than tank if a group already had one? What is being asked for is a viable 2nd role that will be USEFUL to a group if they already have a tank.
Come on, look at this using your "I am not raid geared yet" eyes. Your answer to these guys is, "use your Draig 5 set bonus". Do you understand they have to get that first right? Do you hear what it is you just said? Do you remember how hard it was to level your guard before OP? I have not forgotten how it was to level to 50 on a guard compared to dps classes way back when. What is being asked for is a useful role when tank slot is filled. Not everyone wants to role 6 different classes.

As to you doing more dps than a red traited Cappy: Again your logic fails. Cappy marks/buffs for the win. At 1300 dps you will easily do less for your group when Cappy has his dps marks up for damage not to mention buffs to str/agi. from banners, IDOME etc. It is this type of reasoning that shows why you and I disagree. And btw 1300 is pretty sad compared to real dps classes, not even close enough for most people to consider adding you into their group unless they know you.

Please, if you want to come here and throw how great you are in our face, show a little more skill in your arguments. This community has some very smart Guards, I suggest listening more and posting only after you have given some thought to those that disagree with what you "feel".

My comment in regards to guard dps vs captain dps is based on my geared guard vs my geared captain.... so my logic is not flawed.. its backed by actual experience.

Your request for a secondary role for a tank class is where the flaw is... we are TANKS.. not dps... OP was given to use as option to do more dps at the cost of our defenses for the purpose of leveling a little easier... not to fill a dps slot in an instance.... my point is simple

All the requirements for bartered gear (with the exception of gated ToO) are a currency that is shared across your account... if you dont have the gear on your guard and a slot in an instance for a tank is already filled... fill another slot with another class.

Reading the forums I see so many complaining about the lack of quality tanks in this game... and this is why. Because as it stands now.. you can drop into OP, slot 5 reds... stack all the might you can find and run in and pull 5+ npcs in a questing camp, and kill them all with relative ease.... The guardian doesnt need another role in this game... its primary role is a tank... why would you expect to have a 2nd role that allows you to ouput the dps to make it a viable candidate for a dps position in a group? WE ARE NOT A DPS CLASS!!!

Again this seems like common sense to me..

My foundry group has a tank..... I guess ill go dps... Better get my DPS class instead of my tanking class.

Originally Posted by ImaDecoy

My foundry group has a tank..... I guess ill go dps... Better get my DPS class instead of my tanking class.

Sure, like as if everybody has 7-8 toons level capped , geared, traited etc to choose from...
So you are hard-core super-tank, so... tank !! Nobody said you'll stop tanking !!
Neither will the rest of us...
We just would like another option.
Just in case we don't feel like tanking, or are the 3rd tank in a raid, etc
An option that every other class already has.

Originally Posted by ImaDecoy

Your request for a secondary role for a tank class is where the flaw is... we are TANKS.. not dps... OP was given to use as option to do more dps at the cost of our defenses for the purpose of leveling a little easier... not to fill a dps slot in an instance.... my point is simple

I think I remember a dev. quote from a while back saying that they wanted all trait-lines to be raid viable. Rune-keepers are both excellent healers and excellent DPS in raids; why do you think it is ok that they are able to fill 2 roles while guardians are much more limited in what they can achieve? Despite having 3 raid-viable trait lines do you think rune keepers are still asking for improvements and tweaks? Of course they are and why not? I really don't understand why you show so much attitude to people who have the 'audacity' to suggest that there are things with the guard that could be improved or tweaked.

Originally Posted by ImaDecoy

In my opinion the majority of complaining about this class needing worked on or changed is by people who are to lazy to roll another toon and level it for that specific purpose.

OK so now you just sound like a child. Too lazy? You do realise this is a game we play for enjoyment and not a full time job right?