Re: Graalx2 reveals massive plans for Guardian class in detailed and honest interview
Hey! I answered the question asked and the quote is 'awesome plans' not 'massive plans'.
No, you aren't getting a complete class re-write. I have said before and I'll say again that there is nothing wrong with Guardians in their primary role.
Yes, you will be getting more attention than previously but I don't want to discuss the changes now as they are still in the planning stage. I know exactly what happens when a dev posts something that turns out not to be reflected in the actual game no matter how many times we say that things are subject to change. I could mention that we are going make some changes to [redacted*] [redact], but that would just lead to more questions.
Re: Graalx2 reveals massive plans for Guardian class in detailed and honest interview
Thanks for clearing that up Graalx - maybe you should have given this answer in the Q&A instead of just 'yes'?
I'll agree there is hardly anything wrong with our primary role. Now if you could start working on our secondary role (loads of suggestions on this forum as you know), that would be great
Nothing gamebreaking, let's start with decreasing the power cost penalty in OP....
Re: Graalx2 reveals massive plans for Guardian class in detailed and honest interview
Originally Posted by Jatayu
Please Graalx2 stick to the SnB roots of the Guardian, don't make us into a two-handed wielding clone like all the other melee classes.
The OP Guard has a completely unique playstyle than a Champion does, so I don't really know what you're trying to say. Why should a Guard not be able to viably fill a DPS slot when the tank slot is already filled? Every other class can do the same, to an extent. That's all most Guards are asking for.
Re: Graalx2 reveals massive plans for Guardian class in detailed and honest interview
Originally Posted by Nilsric
Thanks for clearing that up Graalx - maybe you should have given this answer in the Q&A instead of just 'yes'?
I found "yes" far more useful, it answered the question fully, it didn't create any confusion, it gave those who want changes something to look forward to, it didn't freak out those who don't want changes. It was a perfect answer, thorough, insightful and honest.
His post here just muddied the waters, it said a bit of what isn't happening (already given in the "yes"), redundant info that was already out there, and it made a statement not about guardians, but about public reactions to conjecture (obvious). It also was not amusing or entertaining in the least.
Please know that folks' sarcasm here aside, many (hopefully more) of us appreciate direct honest communication rather than wordy PR--especially when it's actually humorous in a fluff piece. We also appreciate solid development rather than distracting conversations.
"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave
Re: Graalx2 reveals massive plans for Guardian class in detailed and honest interview
Originally Posted by Darkheart06
The OP Guard has a completely unique playstyle than a Champion does, so I don't really know what you're trying to say. Why should a Guard not be able to viably fill a DPS slot when the tank slot is already filled? Every other class can do the same, to an extent. That's all most Guards are asking for.
On the contrary, they need to drop DPS for non-DPS classes. When the non-DPS classes can fill a DPS role, what reason is there to ever roll a DPS class? Why would I want to be a HUN or CHM when I could be a GRD and fill twice as many roles?
Re: Graalx2 reveals massive plans for Guardian class in detailed and honest interview
Originally Posted by RvLesh
On the contrary, they need to drop DPS for non-DPS classes. When the non-DPS classes can fill a DPS role, what reason is there to ever roll a DPS class? Why would I want to be a HUN or CHM when I could be a GRD and fill twice as many roles?
This is a wearisome argument. I'm not overly certain why this idea of one character, one role is so pervasive within the Forum Community. Classes should be able to fulfill secondary roles and the previous post doesn't in any way suggest that Guards in OP move to the top of the DPS tables - merely that OP is a viable option when 2 Guards are in a party.
The mantra "want to do X then role Y or Z", which, again, often permeates the Forum, is narrow-minded and ignores the fact that someone might actually only have time/want to play one character. Strange is it might seem, not everyone has time to rock multiple characters. Moreover, they might be trying to finish deeds, rep, armour/jewellery sets on a particular character. Why should they be excluded from a party because there's already a tank (or a healer or support)?
IMO, arguing against being able to fulfill a secondary role, seems to stem from a fear of becoming irrelevant, which is just plain crazy. Assuming play is at a high calibre, I doubt a party would turn down a Mini as a healer if they had a RK in the group. Equally, I doubt any party would turn down a Hunter because they were holding out for a Champ. However, it is unlikely that a group would take another Guard, unless they were having a hard time filling spots.
So I look forward to the awesome changes in the Guard class and hope that the Red line gets some love.
Re: Graalx2 reveals massive plans for Guardian class in detailed and honest interview
I have always been happy that my guardian remained the same... because Turbine is used to brake a class when they changed it. I hope this will not be the case with this class.
Re: Graalx2 reveals massive plans for Guardian class in detailed and honest interview
Originally Posted by RvLesh
On the contrary, they need to drop DPS for non-DPS classes. When the non-DPS classes can fill a DPS role, what reason is there to ever roll a DPS class? Why would I want to be a HUN or CHM when I could be a GRD and fill twice as many roles?
Because a true DPS class would be doing more DPS than guard. I think that the request is to decrease power output in OP in order that an average guardian can fill a role in an average (a.k.a easy) content. In a raid environment true DPS classes would be preferred.
And, by the way, there are no longer pure DPS classes, Hunter can CC (as if it were needed), Champion can tank, RK can heal, etc.
I think that point is that for non raid content and when you have 2 guardians, one can properly fill a DPS role.
Mordecai CHM - Morken GRD - Gilthen MIN (and many others)
Re: Graalx2 reveals massive plans for Guardian class in detailed and honest interview
Originally Posted by RJFerret
I found "yes" far more useful, it answered the question fully, it didn't create any confusion, it gave those who want changes something to look forward to, it didn't freak out those who don't want changes. It was a perfect answer, thorough, insightful and honest.
His post here just muddied the waters, it said a bit of what isn't happening (already given in the "yes"), redundant info that was already out there, and it made a statement not about guardians, but about public reactions to conjecture (obvious). It also was not amusing or entertaining in the least.
Please know that folks' sarcasm here aside, many (hopefully more) of us appreciate direct honest communication rather than wordy PR--especially when it's actually humorous in a fluff piece. We also appreciate solid development rather than distracting conversations.
"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave
Except 'yes' didn't actually say anything at all. If the same question had been asked about any of the classes then the answer would most likely have been the same. They would hardly reply with 'no' now would they?
Re: Graalx2 reveals massive plans for Guardian class in detailed and honest interview
Originally Posted by Graalx2
...I know exactly what happens when a dev posts something that turns out not to be reflected in the actual game no matter how many times we say that things are subject to change. I could mention that we are going make some changes to [redacted*] [redact], but that would just lead to more questions.
Many tasty things that Orion had discussed for Champions and Wardens did never make it to release. I cant remember any significant rage about this because people were convinced that Orion made the right choices there through superior knowledge.
I believe you have a similar sort of clout in "your" community. Unless of course they are pretty princesses like the Hunters.
Re: Graalx2 reveals massive plans for Guardian class in detailed and honest interview
Originally Posted by Darkheart06
The OP Guard has a completely unique playstyle than a Champion does, so I don't really know what you're trying to say. Why should a Guard not be able to viably fill a DPS slot when the tank slot is already filled? Every other class can do the same, to an extent. That's all most Guards are asking for.
What is wrong with a shield using dps build. What is it in the game mechanics or program code that would prevent a shield Guardian from having a dps build? Where is it written in MMO canon, that a shield user can't be a dps class?
Other classes in LOTRO can switch to different roles without completely dropping their class item, why not Guardians.
As conservative and uncommunicative as he is, I am kinda glad that we have Graalx2 as our developer. I am tired of developers that pour all the game play mechanics into a pot and produce a bland clone of all the other classes. (But I will still reserve to right to complain about Graalx2 when the need arises, sorry.)
I don't want to be a two handed wielding champ-lite, looking at the same weapon animations as other classes. Let me switch to a dps shield and sword, trait into the reds, and using a shield be able to fill the need for dps without anyone questioning my ability to do so.
Let's hope that what ever changes or fixes Graalx2 makes (and we need a lot) that he sticks to the SnB roots of the Guardian class.
Re: Graalx2 reveals massive plans for Guardian class in detailed and honest interview
Originally Posted by Bhoris_they_spider
Except 'yes' didn't actually say anything at all. If the same question had been asked about any of the classes then the answer would most likely have been the same. They would hardly reply with 'no' now would they?
Valid point, I concede.
"No" would have to be "not in the near future".
"No" could possibly also be (from other devs), "we'll be looking at that class down the road, anticipating these pie in the sky developments, but nothing is written in stone and anything might change".
If given before the horrible minstrel revamp (yes I know many love it), the answer would not have been "yes", it would have been "we have lots of exciting changes planned, look for my forum post in the near future exploring the options with the community". The unwritten was, "we're going to rip the sole reactive healing class out of the game, replacing it with a warden-esque playstyle, and cause many healers to quit playing, and others to switch from RKs to minstrels".
"Yes" tells me the class isn't going to be upended, something is happening in the next half a year (as elsewhere in the Q&A the fact that they function on a three-month timeframe was stated), and those who have been desiring changes will get something new to complain about, the developments themselves, rather than a lack of changes.
A dev like Orion seems to be a dreamer-type, if you sat down with him/her over a beer, nothing said during the conversation would relate to goings on necessarily. You'd leave unfilled, not sharing anything of the conversation with others.
A dev like Graalx2 appears to be a pragmatist, nothing pie in the sky, if you sat down with him/her over a beer, you'd come away feeling that you'd consumed a meal, your head filled with solid info that would relate to actions. You'd leave enthused, sharing specifics of the conversation with others, growing new conversations from it.
When I read the former developers pronouncements, my reaction is, "Yeah right, we'll see what of that comes to pass." "Yes" tells me to get ready, changes are afoot, they won't be earth shattering (thankfully), but they will be significant. (Given the timing, they might get lost in the RoR raise level cap to 85 changes, but we'll see.)
"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave
Re: Graalx2 reveals massive plans for Guardian class in detailed and honest interview
Originally Posted by Jatayu
What is wrong with a shield using dps build. What is it in the game mechanics or program code that would prevent a shield Guardian from having a dps build? Where is it written in MMO canon, that a shield user can't be a dps class?
Other classes in LOTRO can switch to different roles without completely dropping their class item, why not Guardians.
As conservative and uncommunicative as he is, I am kinda glad that we have Graalx2 as our developer. I am tired of developers that pour all the game play mechanics into a pot and produce a bland clone of all the other classes. (But I will still reserve to right to complain about Graalx2 when the need arises, sorry.)
I don't want to be a two handed wielding champ-lite, looking at the same weapon animations as other classes. Let me switch to a dps shield and sword, trait into the reds, and using a shield be able to fill the need for dps without anyone questioning my ability to do so.
Let's hope that what ever changes or fixes Graalx2 makes (and we need a lot) that he sticks to the SnB roots of the Guardian class.
Shields are not a "class item."
Guards are meant to be able to equip all manner of weapons/armor...including two-handers.
What would be appropriate would be to again allow OP stance WITH a shield...to finally fix more properly and elegantly that morale stacking bug that resulted in OP being disabled on shield use as an emergency "dirty" fix, back after SoM launch (pre-Moria this also existed for a time). This would allow people as the above quoted to enjoy snb in all roles/stances, and for those of us who enjoy the two-handers to likewise enjoy a secondary role.
That, in conjunction with other significant needed adjustments to OP stance, might bring me back to the class.
Re: Graalx2 reveals massive plans for Guardian class in detailed and honest interview
Originally Posted by MorliX
What would be appropriate would be to again allow OP stance WITH a shield...to finally fix more properly and elegantly that morale stacking bug that resulted in OP being disabled on shield use as an emergency "dirty" fix, back after SoM launch (pre-Moria this also existed for a time). This would allow people as the above quoted to enjoy snb in all roles/stances, and for those of us who enjoy the two-handers to likewise enjoy a secondary role.
I missed going OP with a shield. It was more dps than block/parry stance and allowed for high survivability. It was a trade-off between a 2-hander which gave more dps but lower survivability. I miss the days when Turbine could actually FIX bugs and not simply provide band-aid fixes that have negative side effects.
Re: Graalx2 reveals massive plans for Guardian class in detailed and honest interview
Originally Posted by Graalx2
Hey! I answered the question asked and the quote is 'awesome plans' not 'massive plans'.
No, you aren't getting a complete class re-write. I have said before and I'll say again that there is nothing wrong with Guardians in their primary role.
Yes, you will be getting more attention than previously but I don't want to discuss the changes now as they are still in the planning stage. I know exactly what happens when a dev posts something that turns out not to be reflected in the actual game no matter how many times we say that things are subject to change. I could mention that we are going make some changes to [redacted*] [redact], but that would just lead to more questions.
Glad you spoke more on here about this (even though what you spoke here was meaningless), because I was set to leave the game because of your one word reply on the Q and A in regards to this class. I felt and still feel disrespected as a costumer by this. Perhaps I am taking this a bit personally, but that is my prerogative as a paying customer.
Re: Graalx2 reveals massive plans for Guardian class in detailed and honest interview
Originally Posted by Darkheart06
The OP Guard has a completely unique playstyle than a Champion does, so I don't really know what you're trying to say. Why should a Guard not be able to viably fill a DPS slot when the tank slot is already filled? Every other class can do the same, to an extent. That's all most Guards are asking for.
You roll a class for a reason. MMOs would be lame if all classes could do the same stuff equally good.
It would be like choosing a class just because they have stuff that look better, lol.
"We're all rats in a maze. Rats with PayPal accounts." - Pigeye
Re: Graalx2 reveals massive plans for Guardian class in detailed and honest interview
Originally Posted by ShotgunStalker
You roll a class for a reason. MMOs would be lame if all classes could do the same stuff equally good.
It would be like choosing a class just because they have stuff that look better, lol.
right, so let's take away warspeech, nature's fury, glory, way of the spear, and while we're at it, let's just get rid of RKs and captains altogether because they can do too many roles with stuff that 'look better'
Re: Graalx2 reveals massive plans for Guardian class in detailed and honest interview
Originally Posted by oaceen
right, so let's take away warspeech, nature's fury, glory, way of the spear, and while we're at it, let's just get rid of RKs and captains altogether because they can do too many roles with stuff that 'look better'
good luck forming groups.
I don't need a group, i am a Guardian!
"We're all rats in a maze. Rats with PayPal accounts." - Pigeye
Re: Graalx2 reveals massive plans for Guardian class in detailed and honest interview
Originally Posted by Graalx2
Hey! I answered the question asked and the quote is 'awesome plans' not 'massive plans'.
No, you aren't getting a complete class re-write. I have said before and I'll say again that there is nothing wrong with Guardians in their primary role.
Yes, you will be getting more attention than previously but I don't want to discuss the changes now as they are still in the planning stage. I know exactly what happens when a dev posts something that turns out not to be reflected in the actual game no matter how many times we say that things are subject to change. I could mention that we are going make some changes to [redacted*] [redact], but that would just lead to more questions.
Why not share your thoughts on the changes?
Tell us exactly what your planning, so we can have a real discussion.
We the players should have some say in the classes updates I would think.
Frankly, while some updates to the guard have been good, some have been very lackluster (slow in block stance/ or challenge; I'm looking at you).
There have been a great many good ideas thrown around as to how to improve upon the guardian class, yet that tends to be totally ignored.
Why?
Sure your going to get some folks that want more and more, but again, many a guardian, the people that have played a guard for a long time, that is, have made many suggestions over the months and years, to no avail.
While it can be said that we are/were/have been in a "good place", if everything around you changes, and you do not, you tend to feel that you have been left behind.
I know many a guard that would feel the same way.
I have rarely seen a post asking to make us way over the top OP.
We tend to want small things to strengthen the weaknesses that we the players see in the class.
Like my thread on getting some fixes for pledge in the moors, it is our one and only real survival skill, yet so many creeps have skills that can bypass BPE, that it is basically useless.
That is just one small thing.
OP stance power costs, and our ability to self heal have been brought up numerous times, with many a great idea, that would boost us in small ways, yet these ideas are brushed aside, to never be spoken of from a dev, as to why they couldn't be buffed/changed.
So I am asking, have an open dialogue with us, the players, the guardians.
Let us help forge the class, I think given the chance, we could all make the guardian class better.
Re : Re: Graalx2 reveals massive plans for Guardian class in detailed and honest inte
Originally Posted by DuneBug
Champs are by far inferior tanks...
They take more crits, and have a lower morale pool (5K less morale roughly). I don't know much yet about aggro gen, but It looks like a champ is more effective tanking T2 shadow than a guard. Which do not really qualify as "inferior".
I'd also like something to do when I don't need to worry about agro, besides hit guardian's ward.
Easy: DPS, that will usually make the fight go faster.
Re: Graalx2 reveals massive plans for Guardian class in detailed and honest interview
Originally Posted by Darkheart06
The OP Guard has a completely unique playstyle than a Champion does, so I don't really know what you're trying to say. Why should a Guard not be able to viably fill a DPS slot when the tank slot is already filled? Every other class can do the same, to an extent. That's all most Guards are asking for.
Re: Graalx2 reveals massive plans for Guardian class in detailed and honest interview
"Pythia" has spoken and the seers are trying to translate...
A joke of course :P
For the shield and S&B lovers : GRD class item is belt...
I rolled a guard, I loved playing OP as much as tanking, maybe more.
I did not roll a champion.
I do not want of course to become another DPS.
BUT:
I would very much like to have another role in group play OTHER than tank.
Every raid needs one, or two at most, tanks, so 3 GRDs in a raid, is definitely a crowd...
Well, there should be another option (or 2).
I would very much like to be able to DPS, say, as good as a champ tanks, or as good as a captain tanks, or heals...
You get my point
I 'd like an opportunity to be an asset in a raid with my secondary role, not a burden...
I 'm bored to have to face the "classic" dialogue: " **** raid 11/12 ", "x please", "sorry we have tank", " but I'm in OP", "never mind we took ____(fill the blank with whatever class other than guard)"
I 'm also bored having to hire a loremaster to feed me power to be "operational" in OP!!!
I 'd love to see an OP belt ftw !!!
I truly hope that the above are behind that yes... cause our tanking side is OK...
But time will tell...
Graalx2 won't, and that is fine by me, as long as he hears....
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Originally Posted by Darethelion
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Why even turn up?
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Re: Graalx2 reveals massive plans for Guardian class in detailed and honest interview
I don't need a group, i am a Guardian!
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