Thread: Draigoch bugging out still, keep on selling it in the store guys.

Originally Posted by Khafar

Well, if it's really like the Wi Flag, we can expect another 2 years or so before it gets fully diagnosed and fixed. I've had a few bugs like that myself, ... <snip> ...

I'm sure Turbine has made many runs at trying to A) reliably reproduce it, B) diagnose problems, and C) apply fixes before trying it out on Palantir. I'd bet that the fact that they haven't nailed it yet means that they can't get it to fail for them with any consistency on their NDA server ...

Khafar

1. There is no evidence that this bug is as hard to find and fix as the Wi Flag. We just don't know - but comparing it to that bug is assuming a lot - assuming this is almost impossible to find. All we can assume is that is it not easy to fix (or they would have) but we can't tell how hard it is to solve. Sure it is probably difficult - but with enough work it may be very possible to solve.

2. We have no knowledge of how much effort/staff time/resources has actually been put into this issue. Surely some has, but a little? a lot? We just don't know - except we know it has not been fixed. I would not assume that they have put a lot of resources into fixing this. As we all know, they have lots of "priorities" in what they are working on.

My guess: they just haven't put enough resources into this issue. Staff on their dev. team are pretty busy - management has not made this a priority. They have probably worked on it a few times, made some code fixes they hoped would work (but didn't) and then stopped working on this. I am sure they are spending more time on the lag issue now and very little on this issue. But who knows. Just we have no evidence they have taken this seriously enough or put significant resources into fixing it. If they don't want to spend the money needed to fix this - then they should stop selling it.

Yes, Remove the instance!

I hate it, it's boring and well... since I have done it so many times I don't need it anymore, so just remove it... Put dragonscales on store and as rare drops from lootboxes and remove the instance from the face of middle earth please!

Make everyone happy and remove it, people won't complain about it being bugged and Turbine don't need to fix it (As it seems very hard to do or rather impossible) and I don't have to feel any guilt for not playing it with my kinnies!

It's boring bugged and waste of time, remove it!

I feel sorry for the ones that have created this instance... But I can't help it, can't like everything.

Instead of complaining all the time, how about putting in an effort to document to actually situation when Draigoch bugs out for you ?


We (as a kin) have done Draigoch once a week - not once has he bugged out on us.
So i have no idea why people are complaining - i have not experienced any kind of brain dead.

There are a few suggestions as to how to avoid certain possible bugs:
- no pets
- reset instance on a wipe and don´t just run down

Originally Posted by UwS-Harledir

There are a few suggestions as to how to avoid certain possible bugs:
- no pets
- reset instance on a wipe and don´t just run down

These two suggestions have been suggested COUNTLESS times. Yet people still have it bug when these suggestions are followed. So please, give us more since you know how to keep it from bugging (rk stones, cpt rezzes, phantom tanking, not staying at range in 3rd phase have also been covered enough as well).

Originally Posted by Fortinobrand

I had a fairly lengthy career in software development, including several game development jobs, starting at Epyx and working on into the MMO era. I left the software industry about 6 years ago. I understand the nature of the issue, and the difficulty in resolving it. But I know when I worked for any of several major game studios we'd have been fired on the spot if we were to say "gee boss we can't fix it because a player hasn't told us how yet." We'd gather user data of course, but it was on US to identify and resolve the issue.


more words and stuff

What makes you think the parties responsible for the faulty coding are still in Turbine employ?
There are many software engineer job positions available at Turbine. It is just as likely that the parties who couldn't fix the problem were canned as it is likely that they are still working there.

http://wbgamesjobs.com/ (most of the software related positions are in Boston).

Just saying, maybe it's taking so much time to fix the thing because they have to find someone to clean up another person's mess.

Originally Posted by Lothirieth

These two suggestions have been suggested COUNTLESS times. Yet people still have it bug when these suggestions are followed. So please, give us more since you know how to keep it from bugging (rk stones, cpt rezzes, phantom tanking, not staying at range in 3rd phase have also been covered enough as well).

sorry to disappoint - as i said it has not bugged for us - and in my opinion we are doing the instance the simple and normal way as probably everyone else is so no idea why we are lucky and others not - that goes to show that things can be difficult to explain and therefore difficult to fix

Doesn't really matter how complex the problem is, it could take another 2 years to fully fix Draigoch and we will have people here justifying that amount of time.

For outsiders, they might not have the sympathy to think the problem is too complex so needed a long time to fix. It would just seem like a problem that took a long time to fix or not fixed at all if the status quo remains.

______________________________

Originally Posted by UwS-Harledir

sorry to disappoint - as i said it has not bugged for us - and in my opinion we are doing the instance the simple and normal way as probably everyone else is so no idea why we are lucky and others not - that goes to show that things can be difficult to explain and therefore difficult to fix

First you have to admit there is a problem (Draigoch bugs not on the known issues list at the present time) Then you have to actually allocate resources and put in the effort to fix something...

Or Turbine could ignore all that and just keep telling themselves, 'hey it's still selling nothing to see here'....

Originally Posted by UwS-Harledir

sorry to disappoint - as i said it has not bugged for us - and in my opinion we are doing the instance the simple and normal way as probably everyone else is so no idea why we are lucky and others not - that goes to show that things can be difficult to explain and therefore difficult to fix

Well, good for you that it never bugs for you. The question should be why does it not bug for you, but bugs for others?

I have spent probably 7-10 hours in draigoch that was wasted due to it being bugged.
I have also spent about the same amount of time in draigoch that was not wasted because we could complete it.
I have spent perhaps an hour and a half to two hours in a draigoch that had bugged and yet we were able to complete it because we could still dps the body.

I have seen it about to go into bug out ~10s before we finished killing it twice.


I have been in runs that say:
No runestones
No lore-master pets
No captain banners
No bleeds of any kind
No bleeds after a certain amount of time
No unnecessary FMs
No melee dps at all
No dieing
No rezzes
And, most famously of all, some GM told the raidleader to have everyone turn off all plugins, so it wouldn't bug. (guess what it bugged and all of lol'd and said 'i told you so')
etc.

And guess what, it has STILL bugged on us, despite every person doing all that.

And then I have been in runs where every single possible thing has gone wrong and it's still been able to completed.
One time we ended up completing 16 FMs, because the person changing FMs couldn't remember which one he skipped! We completed it.
One time we had at least 15 deaths in the first 5 minutes of draigoch. We still completed it.
We've had the tank accidentally die a few times with no healer, and we had to have someone rush up there fast. We've still completed it.


My hunter took THREE tries before I was able to complete it the first time, because it kept bugging out. My burglar took AT LEAST FIVE times to complete the first time because it kept bugging out. My warden and LM and RK? No troubles the first time.


There is just no rhyme or reason to what causes it to bug and what allows people to complete it.


For those of you who have completed it every time without any problems: congrats to you. you're lucky. But please do not try and say "It doesn't bug for me, therefore there isn't a problem with the instance" because there are more people then just you and your group trying to beat this and running into a wall one or more times a week.


As for the subject at hand: No, it's not right they continue to sell a faulty product. Maybe if only a small small portion of lotro encountered this. But it's not. I would say only a small portion doesn't encounter a problem with the raid, compared to the countless encounters of bugged out runs.

I expect many will disagree but:-

"Don't write over-complex game mechanics if you can't debug therm" Draigoch's mechanics are interesting and a good fresh look at how to fight a seious boss. But, clearly too complicated given the way it interacts with existing mechanics on pathing which we know is a weakness of Turbine's coding.

Simple approach would be to allow a GM to reset the thing to, say, 50% health or what have you. So it may get some abuse but after RoR launches Draigoch will be able to sleep in peace for most of the time.

The best way to figure out the exact problem would be to crowd source it.

If turbine allowed GMs to kill draigoch and reward loot every time he bugged, then the players would be highly motivated to find out the exact thing to do to get him to bug. The mechanism would get out, and turbine could fix it.

By doing the opposite of this, by punishing players for bugging him, all they are doing is causing player superstition to generate a zillion false leads in what is causing the bug.

Seems to me if they are really committed to finding the bug, they need to harness simple human motivations.

Originally Posted by Anwiga

What makes you think the parties responsible for the faulty coding are still in Turbine employ?
There are many software engineer job positions available at Turbine. It is just as likely that the parties who couldn't fix the problem were canned as it is likely that they are still working there.

http://wbgamesjobs.com/ (most of the software related positions are in Boston).

Just saying, maybe it's taking so much time to fix the thing because they have to find someone to clean up another person's mess.

Valid point -- and I have been there, but as a paying customer I just don't care, I'm paying for functioning product. And if this is the case, I'll say again -- a little honest communication from someone who can write at an adult level would go a long way.

Originally Posted by UwS-Harledir

sorry to disappoint - as i said it has not bugged for us - and in my opinion we are doing the instance the simple and normal way as probably everyone else is so no idea why we are lucky and others not - that goes to show that things can be difficult to explain and therefore difficult to fix

So the issue doesn't impact you, you have nothing useful to add, and yet you don't hesitate to come in here spreading lies and blaming players who expect some kind of satisfaction from Turbine. Your kind of "contribution" only has one value: it makes it easier for Turbine to keep disregarding those players who do encounter the problem. You're quite a guy.

Originally Posted by Lazlo_Hollyfeld

The best way to figure out the exact problem would be to crowd source it.

If turbine allowed GMs to kill draigoch and reward loot every time he bugged, then the players would be highly motivated to find out the exact thing to do to get him to bug. The mechanism would get out, and turbine could fix it.

By doing the opposite of this, by punishing players for bugging him, all they are doing is causing player superstition to generate a zillion false leads in what is causing the bug.

Seems to me if they are really committed to finding the bug, they need to harness simple human motivations.

Very true! Besides complicating troubleshooting by introducing all of the superstition restrictions, they are also pushing more and more of the players who encounter the issue out of the instance. I suppose if they keep just ignoring the matter eventually it will only be run by people who don't get the problem, and so there will be a 100% success rate. Woooooo! Code repair through apathy and attrition!

Originally Posted by keikii

For those of you who have completed it every time without any problems: congrats to you. you're lucky. But please do not try and say "It doesn't bug for me, therefore there isn't a problem with the instance" because there are more people then just you and your group trying to beat this and running into a wall one or more times a week.

I agree with this. It's getting tiresome having a few people coming in these threads saying that it doesn't bug for them, so why don't you just stop using LM pets (for example)... since they don't do it, somehow they've found the magical answer to keep this instance from bugging. It's entirely unhelpful.

I realise this could be really difficult to fix. The first thing Turbine needs to do is amend their policy on GMs intervening. It is possible for them to kill of mobs and then give the rewards. The GM could use their discretion as to if it's deserved or not of course. But since no fix seems to be coming soon, giving GMs the power to help out would make people so much more happy. It would be good customer service in response to their broken product.

Is this a new bug?

Kinnie reported they killed the dragon, but when they went to loot the chests, found them empty.

Sent a ticket and a GM responded. He was nice enough to respawn all the chests that then worked.

Originally Posted by Lazlo_Hollyfeld

The best way to figure out the exact problem would be to crowd source it.

If turbine allowed GMs to kill draigoch and reward loot every time he bugged, then the players would be highly motivated to find out the exact thing to do to get him to bug. The mechanism would get out, and turbine could fix it.

That's a pretty interesting idea. If they made it worthwhile, every group would be using banners, heralds, pets, runestones, captain rezzes while jumping, messing up FMs, etc lol.. it would be fun, if nothing else.

Though it would probably still bug for those it bugs for now, and probably wouldn't bug for those it doesn't. If it were easy to duplicate, someone would have found it by now. But I like your idea - might as well incentivize people to try and break it, instead of to try and avoid the bug...

Originally Posted by Cindir

1. There is no evidence that this bug is as hard to find and fix as the Wi Flag.

Actually, I'd be shocked if this weren't much, much more difficult than the Wi Flag. That was just an unfortunate algorithmic problem... obscure, somewhat subtle, but highly repeatable. This is some sort of intermittent timing/load-related issue in a very complex piece of content. Having spent weeks of my time as a developer chasing this sort of stuff, it can be absolutely brutal to find. One issue my project has seen has been eluding us for 18 months now... customers see it now and again, but no matter what we do, we simply cannot reproduce it in any debug environment (where we'd stand some chance of tracking it down to a root cause). I take that back - we actually have seen it in our test lab a couple of times during that period. But because we didn't have sufficient logging in all the right places, we couldn't diagnose the cause. Once we added more logging, the timing changed enough that the problem went away (for us) entirely.

We've had 3 different teams of engineers make about 6 hard runs at trying to find and fix this issue, and we still don't know what's causing it. At this point, about the only hope of fixing it would be to rewrite that entire system (which would cost a ton, and has no guarantee that something else just as aggravating won't be screwed up in the new system).

2. We have no knowledge of how much effort/staff time/resources has actually been put into this issue.

Look. This was advertised content, and it's supposed to be a "peak experience" for people, a significant contributor to "endgame" for many players. The idea that they haven't tried very hard to fix it is just silly. Sure, you can always do "more", but sometimes bugs really are extremely difficult to run to ground.

Khafar

Originally Posted by Lothirieth

I agree with this. It's getting tiresome having a few people coming in these threads saying that it doesn't bug for them, so why don't you just stop using LM pets (for example)... since they don't do it, somehow they've found the magical answer to keep this instance from bugging. It's entirely unhelpful.

I realise this could be really difficult to fix. The first thing Turbine needs to do is amend their policy on GMs intervening. It is possible for them to kill of mobs and then give the rewards. The GM could use their discretion as to if it's deserved or not of course. But since no fix seems to be coming soon, giving GMs the power to help out would make people so much more happy. It would be good customer service in response to their broken product.

Giving GMs the power would be the first step.

My personal belief is that the bug doesn't have anything to do with PC actions with banners, stones, etc., and is probably actually a case where a script tries to fire to determine what action to do next, encounters some kind of lag(perhaps a 'Moors fight is taking up a lot of resources), but instead of trying to fire the script again, the Draigoch routine just stops. An analogy would be trying to make a call, and stopping after a busy signal rather than automatically hanging up and retrying again a few seconds later.

Whenever Draigoch stands up, you can tell there is a pause as the program is trying to calculate what script to fire. Basically, what is the body total at, so what phase is the dragon at? What should he say, should coins fly up, should he do the animation of lighting fire around the room?

At some point during this determination process, the script hangs, and Draigoch cannot determine what he should be doing next so he bugs out. But, why isn't there anything in place to account for this? Maybe they can't determine why his script is bugging, but why isn't there a secondary routine in place to put things back on track in case it bugs out? It's not like his morale total is getting wiped out and the program doesn't know where to go from there. There should be some kind of backup script that triggers if the program can determine that Draigoch is in a bugged state and resets him.

As far as complexity, IMHO this isn't a complex boss. There are barely any aggro mechanics beyond, "Is something fighting the head at this moment?". This is essentially an entire battle of fighting circles on the ground, and the only complex thing about it is trying to align the visual display of the dragon with those circles.

Give the devs a break they have had a tough time the last several months giving us useless instances from Fornost revamps and they have been working extremely hard on making horses for the Store. They figured that you wouldn't care about bugs if your on a special store horse.

Wild speculation.

Draigoch is actually two linked mobs, head and body, with four spawn adds, the feet. The routine is running something along the lines of:

Is my head being fought? If so spawn foot#1
Is my head being fought and foot#1 is dead? If so spawn foot#2
...
...
Is my head being fought and foot#4 is dead? If so activate body.
Rinse and repeat lots.

The bug implies that body has a target because the implications are that he bugs out when body is the focus of attention but cannot get at its own target (OK, my experience, yours may differ). Perhaps just remove the ability of the body to target something, or alternatively, given that Turbine must be able to differentiate between a player toon, a mobile pet, an active but static stone and a passive static object like a banner, ensure that only player toons are legitimate targets and other things are invisible. Furthermore give the body a legitimate target check order based on proximity ignoring path maybe, we know pathing is not a strong point. Might be a harsh mechanic, although simple to initiate, automatically put whoever activated the last FM at the head of the aggro chain, followed in order by all those who contributed. If it can't target #1 because of death or pathing or what have you, then target#2 and so forth. If it looks beyond#6 and they are all dead or untargetable then put in a scripted video of biting the main tank's head off so at least a fail gets a giggle and the title "Headless Chicken"!

+kudos to the suggestion on crowdsourcing. They can't be against the concept, its more formal name is open beta testing:-)

Originally Posted by Khafar

Actually, I'd be shocked if this weren't much, much more difficult than the Wi Flag. ... Having spent weeks of my time as a developer chasing this sort of stuff, it can be absolutely brutal to find. One issue my project has seen has been eluding us for 18 months now... ...

The idea that they haven't tried very hard to fix it is just silly. Sure, you can always do "more", but sometimes bugs really are extremely difficult to run to ground.

Khafar

See you are taking the hardest possible bugs you have ever encountered and comparing it to this bug with no knowledge whatsoever what type of bug this is. That is my point: you are perpetuating a myth that this is an incredibly hard, near impossible bug to solve. No idea why you are doing this. Maybe just want to be positive for Turbine.

We outside of Turbine have no idea how much time has been spent on this issue. Only time will tell - but again you are just making it up that this is a near-impossible class bug to solve. And that Turbine has spent months of dedicated time working on this. We do know dev. staff are overworked, can't do everything they want to do, and that being a dev. is stressful (see recent Q&A) - most likely because they have too much to work on. So it is entirely possible they have not put a huge amount of time into solving this.

To be fair, you clearly have experience and may be right on this issue. It just seems like too much speculation to me. Just because there are some very hard bugs to fix out there, says nothing about this particular bug. Of course it must not be an easy one to solve - but a near-impossible bug with mythical status like the Wii bug - you can't really say this without any evidence.

Originally Posted by Cindir

See you are taking the hardest possible bugs you have ever encountered and comparing it to this bug with no knowledge whatsoever what type of bug this is. That is my point: you are perpetuating a myth that this is an incredibly hard, near impossible bug to solve.

What I'm doing is extrapolating company behavior from my own experiences, and arriving at "this bug is very likely to be extremely difficult to find/fix". Why? Because:

• It impacts an important new feature for the game, giving it lots of customer visibility.
• It's sucking up GM time, who have to deal with many player groups expecting them to "fix it"... this does take time, even if they cannot "fix it", and time is $$.
• This content is in the Store, and a well-known/painful bug in it is going to hurt sales, with spill-over into subscriptions and other Store sales (angry people tend not to spend more money with the company they're angry at). For-profit companies can be counted on to pay attention to revenue loss.
• Developers who are on the hotseat for high-impact, customer-visible bugs HATE that, and will expend much energy and time trying to get themselves back off of that hotseat. We'll work evenings and weekends, bring in other colleagues, make proposals to improve the testing capability in the lab, etc.

It simply isn't plausible that they're just lounging about, ignoring this month after month. There are tons of bugs that could be ignored for months, even years... they impact a tiny percentage of players, there's a reasonable work-around, etc. This isn't one of those.

Khafar

Khafar - all good points.

BTW, I actually said the opposite of "they're just lounging about". I said the dev. team is understaffed and overworked. This is why I am not sure how much time has been spent on this, as they work to address the lag issue and work on Rohan, store items, and other pressing issues and "priorities". Hopefully they will invest enough staff time on this and other bugs.

I am responsible (one of the main staff) for the content on a large state-specific information website. For many reasons, my boss has chosen to let many errors exist on the site for years. The obvious things that need attention do not get it - because he wants me to work on other things. Rationally, no one would set these priorities (they would address the biggest errors first, but people are not always rational and there is always too much work to do. People make bad decisions. The obvious decision is not always made by organizations for lots of reasons. Such as the decision to invest enough to make sure that this is fixed soon because it is bad PR for Turbine.

Originally Posted by stratospaly

My kin has had the dragon bug 2 times (in the same night a few weeks before the 7.0 patch). Other than that in the past 3 months it has not been a problem. We do dragon 2-3x per night without issue.

You are doing it wrong.

Obviously I'm doing something wrong if you're able to run Draigoch "2-3x per night" considering it has locks on it.

Originally Posted by Elderban

Obviously I'm doing something wrong if you're able to run Draigoch "2-3x per night" considering it has locks on it.

Well, it only takes 6-12 players, and some kinships (I'm assuming that's what "we" means) have more than 150 L75 characters. Meaning they could run it twice a day, 7 days a week.

Also, some people have more than 1 character. Crazy, I know, but it's a good use for all those extra character slots!

I hope if/when they do fix it, they'll give the community some feedback about the specifics of the issue (as was done with the Wi-flag). Though most of us might not understand the details, some of us would, and I for one would really be interested in what the bug was... especially if it's something that is in any way affected by player actions.

It's not fair to say someone is "doing it wrong", just because it seems to bug more often for them than it does for you. But it is certainly possible that player actions do have an effect on it, and that could explain why it's happening for some groups (a lot) more than others.

Originally Posted by Maxal

I will say the folks I know that reported issues were those trying to run the dragon with 6, 7 or 8 people and not the full 12.

No. We made it many times with 6 players without any bugs. And we made it with 12 players without bugs and with bugs. The worst was as draigoch bugged at approx. 23K moral left.

Regards
CA

I will add to this post only because I am one of the many who have never bugged, not sure why, but all I heard was dont use bleeds, dont use stuns bascially dont play the game. Until now. 3 of my last 5 draig runs have bugged, we had him down to 400k 26k and 4k and he quit working. It is very frustrating since he never bugged in the past for us and we did everything, used every skill and no problems. Now it is finally showing its evil face. I dont need the gear, I dont need the scales, but I like running it to help out kinmates and friends but after putting in 11 hours last week on 4 toons and it bugged 3 times I just wont run it anymore, the draig groups are getting less and less. He just stops working.
Something is causing this. Hope it gets figured out for all the players leveling. With all my toons with raid armor now I dont need the gear but others do and will never get it this way.

Welcome to the "It Bugged on US" crew STEAL107...very sad when that happens.

Interesting that this thread was moved to a sub-forum of the Store forum. Was that done to

1. Move it from the light of day it was getting in the General forum?
2. Because there will be an official response about selling the Instance in the store?
3. Maybe, just maybe it is to guage feedback for Scales being added to the Store?

or

- because the premise of the OP is that the raid should not be sold in the store

Originally Posted by JeauxLOTR

Welcome to the "It Bugged on US" crew STEAL107...very sad when that happens.

Interesting that this thread was moved to a sub-forum of the Store forum. Was that done to

1. Move it from the light of day it was getting in the General forum?
2. Because there will be an official response about selling the Instance in the store?
3. Maybe, just maybe it is to guage feedback for Scales being added to the Store?

I'll go with 1.

The only thing Turbine should do is remove it from the store.

By now everyone with a bit of sense understands this is not content that is 100% in working condition and therefore should not be sold for TP.

Just to add: if all you have to say is "I don't care, it doesn't bother me, it never bugged for me" I'm sure others here really appreciate your selfish opinion.

Originally Posted by Mithithil

Wild speculation.

Draigoch is actually two linked mobs, head and body, with four spawn adds, the feet. The routine is running something along the lines of:

Is my head being fought? If so spawn foot#1
Is my head being fought and foot#1 is dead? If so spawn foot#2
...
...
Is my head being fought and foot#4 is dead? If so activate body.
Rinse and repeat lots.

The bug implies that body has a target because the implications are that he bugs out when body is the focus of attention but cannot get at its own target (OK, my experience, yours may differ). Perhaps just remove the ability of the body to target something, or alternatively, given that Turbine must be able to differentiate between a player toon, a mobile pet, an active but static stone and a passive static object like a banner, ensure that only player toons are legitimate targets and other things are invisible. Furthermore give the body a legitimate target check order based on proximity ignoring path maybe, we know pathing is not a strong point. Might be a harsh mechanic, although simple to initiate, automatically put whoever activated the last FM at the head of the aggro chain, followed in order by all those who contributed. If it can't target #1 because of death or pathing or what have you, then target#2 and so forth. If it looks beyond#6 and they are all dead or untargetable then put in a scripted video of biting the main tank's head off so at least a fail gets a giggle and the title "Headless Chicken"!

+kudos to the suggestion on crowdsourcing. They can't be against the concept, its more formal name is open beta testing:-)

It's good that you are trying to problem-solve, but the mechanics you describe aren't how the raid works. You could theoretically be attacking all four feet at one time- they don't spawn from killing other feet or attacking the head -they spawn a set period of time after the dragon gets off of the ground. Not attacking the head will simply result in the walls being shaken as Draigoch gets pissed off and every starts automatically taking damage.

This instance barely has any aggro mechanic to begin with, which is why it frustrates me when people speculate about pets, or rune stones, or any of that stuff -those are all mechanics that are related to aggro, like a RK stone dropping beneath the floor in Ost Elendil and anti-exploiting the guards, which just isn't the case here.

I'm not sure why the claws or body even show who's aggroed to begin with, as it doesn't seem to affect anything. It could be just my imagination, but it seems like those targets simply cycle between the people attacking it anyways- I've seen "targets" that were barely doing anything to attack the head get aggro(like my champion shooting a fiery claw at range), unless our various Burglars have been using Enrage every single time.

Originally Posted by CaerArianrhod

No. We made it many times with 6 players without any bugs. And we made it with 12 players without bugs and with bugs. The worst was as draigoch bugged at approx. 23K moral left.

Regards
CA

We had him bug out with I think 6k morale left. I can certainly feel your pain. If you're interested, the members of my raid created a support group after Draigoch bugged out two times in a row for us. We used to raid Draigoch at 7pm CST on Tuesday. We now, instead, meet at the Prancing Pony at that time. We just sit around mostly and listen to one of our support group members play ABC rendition of Barry Mannilow songs. We find the experience to be more enjoyable and rewarding then Draigoch bugging out on us. If you have Draigoch helm or shoulders, we respectfully request you either wear another set piece for these two item slots or hide them on your cosmetic panel, so as not to increase the anguish of those in the support group who have yet to obtain these pieces.